Doesn't affirmative action enhance stereotypes in admissions?

[Gandyy]

I make an effort to never comment on Affirmative Action threads. I'll bite here for a split second and make a rare exception.

There are a number of valid concerns and reservations about AA. People misconstrue it and what it does/should serve. Furthermore, there are several things I definitely disagree with that ADCOMs have said on this thread with regards to AA and its efficacy. The number of people in our country and culture ignorant of the many issues of discrimination(amongst other unique issues) they face and are ignorant of understanding the perspective of Asian minorites is rather disturbing.

To go off this even more, its an indictment of this country the number of the most educated and knowledgeable people in this country who show not only show an (at best) limited understanding of Asians and their culture, not just in terms of not understanding the issues of discrimination they face, but also show an ignorance towards the typical Asian stereotypes that are consistently perputrated to a much greater degree than many realize. These stereotypes are far more than what you here in social media such as fans yelling "wonton soup" at Jeremy Lin whenever he shoots free throws in a basketball game or Harvard students openly calling him the C-word on campus, the video of the UCLA student mocking Asian americans(there are MANY people who either do worse than what she did or have thoughts more offensive than what she did), or the number of Sikh Americans who have been shot dead for being accused of being terrorists since 9/11. Being an Asian American who has spent time in the South in the past I can tell you there were multiple places I was been kicked out of/not allowed to enter from restaurants to bowling alleys for the simple reason with the simple justification "we can't/don't want you here" while my white friends were able to enter/stay. Perhaps most damning of all is the number of people in this country with a lack of understanding(and lack of willingness to even try to consider even acknowledging) of the diversity and perspective Asian Americans bring to this country and the diversity and differences amongst Asian Americans themselves from different parts of the world thousands of miles apart.

But good god, the way people are attacking AA on this thread and their arguments against it, just jesus christ. The disrespect shown to all minorities, Asians, Blacks and Hispanics through many of these inflaming anti AA arguments is just the height of ignorance and childishness. The strawman arguments, the twisting of words of people you disagree with, consistently throwing out incorrect facts and data to support whatever viewpoint you have just highlights the worst parts about people on this site. The number of times ADCOMS who's job involves understanding these issues have had their words twisted or attacked on this very thread is insane.

There are a number of valid reservations to have about the use of AA in admission for all kinds of education. There are even more concerns to have about the ignorance of Asian culture and the issues many Asians face and stereotypes against them. But the attacks and assumptions made about all minorities and the childishness of so many of these anti-AA arguments is just pathetic. The fact so many AA thread derails into such complete mess with anti-AA flamethrowers often igniting the nonsense that spews these threads out of control speaks volumes about the progress still needed for this country in understanding racial issues and what really constitutes the racial problems this country faces today. The fact that it is such a struggle to even have consistently meaningful and earnest discussions about race that aren't sidetracked by diatribes and personal attacks on others says everything there is about the progress this country still needs to make in understanding issues of racial minorities in this era, be it black, latino, asian or a variety of other groups we often barely even consider.

Probably the best post on the subject.

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[Noomm]

I once spent some time in a predominantly black neighborhood and I witnessed a black kid getting arrested by two white cops. It felt wrong to me - I thought they should have had black cops in the predominantly black neighborhood. I would be in favor of affirmative action for the recruitment of black cops in that case.

The reason I feel that affirmative action would have been justified was because, as it was, there were white cops in a position where they were punishing the black kid. In other words, the white cops were a total negative on that kid's life. I can't imagine that experiences like that lead to better race relations between blacks and whites.

In the case of doctors, though, I feel that affirmative action is not only unnecessary, but a hindrance to race relations. Most of the time, doctors exert a positive effect on their patients. Therefore, with a patient base that is of a different ethnicity than the doctor himself, race relations can actually improve a good deal in my estimation. In fact, I believe that by saying that patients feel more comfortable around doctors who are the same race as them, we are encouraging doctors to treat members of their own race alone, and discouraging doctors from treating patients of other races. This is a great tragedy because a wonderful opportunity to improve race relations is lost.

Therefore, I am against affirmative action for medical school. Instead, I think that we should focus more efforts on encouraging doctors to treat members of races different from theirs.

 

[Banco]

I once spent some time in a predominantly black neighborhood and I witnessed a black kid getting arrested by two white cops. It felt wrong to me - I thought they should have had black cops in the predominantly black neighborhood. I would be in favor of affirmative action for the recruitment of black cops in that case.

The reason I feel that affirmative action would have been justified was because, as it was, there were white cops in a position where they were punishing the black kid. In other words, the white cops were a total negative on that kid's life. I can't imagine that experiences like that lead to better race relations between blacks and whites.

 

[Noomm]

I know it might sound funny but that's how I feel

 

[Goro]

LizzyM is on vacation. Let the poor woman rest!

 

[Lawpy]

LizzyM is on vacation. Let the poor woman rest!

I'm still surprised this thread is active, while another similar, but more recent, thread got torpedoed pretty quickly.

 

[FutureBenCarson]

Wow, this is a great thread. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

The argument that URM is reverse biased is true only if you consider MCAT and GPA to be the only two factors which are indicative of a "good" med school candidate. If this were true, it would in fact be reverse discrimination towards white people if adcoms were to accept an african american with lower stats then a white applicant. HOWEVER, we all know stats alone do not make a good doctor. In fact, I would argue that once your in the >3.8gpa/35mcat realm, the differences in "intelligence" becomes negligible. No offense, but a rich white kid will not understand the problems poor minorities do....nor would they probably feel comfortable providing care to them, at least not the way that minorities would. So, in that sense, despite how unfair it may seem, yes, being a minority does make you a better doctor. And if you still have a problem with affirmative action, try to think about the advantages being white has given you... if you deny them, then I can't try to sway your opinion anyways.

While I support affirmative action, I DO think it is unfair in very specific (probably very rare) situations. For example, consider the case of a very poor white person competing against a wealthy minority..... The only reason I think of this is because I come from a very poor background. Neither parent with a degree, only one of them completed high school, and I have 6 siblings. I live at around 50% of the US poverty line, which is considered to be living in "deep poverty". I worked FULL TIME throughout school to support my family, and still managed to maintain a 3.99 gpa and got a 525 MCAT. It does pain me to think that a minority with a 3.7 and 515 MCAT has an equivalent to better chance then I do....even if they are wealthy and did not face my same struggles. I DO understand the issues associated with being stuck in a system and not being able to get out. In fact, even though I am white, compared to a rich african american, I probably understand adversity more, coming from an extremely poor background, despite being white. So I feel like affirmative action helps rich minorities because they have all kinds of resources AND URM advantage, but hurts poor white people because they are missing the financial resources that 90% of white people have, but can't get the same URM advantage. See my point? This situation probably rarely happens, and despite it, I still support affirmative action strongly.

I think a fairer way to go about it though, would be to examine SES. Most minorities are forced into low SES anyways, which is partly the reason affirmative action started. So, by using SES instead of URM, we could eliminate the problem I described above. Most minorities would STILL have their disadvantage recognized, but it would not exclude poor whites. This would also take advantages away from rich people and balance the issue. Because if you really examine the life style, rich minorities really have no disadvantage compared to rich white people. My point is that the majority of poor people happen to be minorities, and it isn't their fault, it is the system. I feel that SES is really more of a disadvantage and also provides more diversity than does race. Less than 10% of accepted medical students come from the lowest 40% in family income.... THAT IS STAGGERING. and despite popular belief, med school populations are actually approaching/are pretty reflective of the country's population in regards to race. But the same thing cannot be said about the med school population in regards to SES. Also, if you look at which minorities ARE being accepted, they are the rich ones. In my opinion, it is more of an SES thing, not truly a race thing.

I am not ignorant enough to think I am perfectly correct! I respect every ones opinion. I was just throwing in my 2 cents. Let me rephrase that, I respect everyone's opinion unless you are some rich white kid crying about affirmative action because you can't see all the advantages being a rich white kid has given you.

 

[efle]

Wow, this is a great thread. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

The argument that URM is reverse biased is true only if you consider MCAT and GPA to be the only two factors which are indicative of a "good" med school candidate. If this were true, it would in fact be reverse discrimination towards white people if adcoms were to accept an african american with lower stats then a white applicant. HOWEVER, we all know stats alone do not make a good doctor. In fact, I would argue that once your in the >3.8gpa/35mcat realm, the differences in "intelligence" becomes negligible. No offense, but a rich white kid will not understand the problems poor minorities do....nor would they probably feel comfortable providing care to them, at least not the way that minorities would. So, in that sense, despite how unfair it may seem, yes, being a minority does make you a better doctor. And if you still have a problem with affirmative action, try to think about the advantages being white has given you... if you deny them, then I can't try to sway your opinion anyways.

While I support affirmative action, I DO think it is unfair in very specific (probably very rare) situations. For example, consider the case of a very poor white person competing against a wealthy minority..... The only reason I think of this is because I come from a very poor background. Neither parent with a degree, only one of them completed high school, and I have 6 siblings. I live at around 50% of the US poverty line, which is considered to be living in "deep poverty". I worked FULL TIME throughout school to support my family, and still managed to maintain a 3.99 gpa and got a 525 MCAT. It does pain me to think that a minority with a 3.7 and 515 MCAT has an equivalent to better chance then I do....even if they are wealthy and did not face my same struggles. I DO understand the issues associated with being stuck in a system and not being able to get out. In fact, even though I am white, compared to a rich african american, I probably understand adversity more, coming from an extremely poor background, despite being white. So I feel like affirmative action helps rich minorities because they have all kinds of resources AND URM advantage, but hurts poor white people because they are missing the financial resources that 90% of white people have, but can't get the same URM advantage. See my point? This situation probably rarely happens, and despite it, I still support affirmative action strongly.

I think a fairer way to go about it though, would be to examine SES. Most minorities are forced into low SES anyways, which is partly the reason affirmative action started. So, by using SES instead of URM, we could eliminate the problem I described above. Most minorities would STILL have their disadvantage recognized, but it would not exclude poor whites. This would also take advantages away from rich people and balance the issue. Because if you really examine the life style, rich minorities really have no disadvantage compared to rich white people. My point is that the majority of poor people happen to be minorities, and it isn't their fault, it is the system. I feel that SES is really more of a disadvantage and also provides more diversity than does race. Less than 10% of accepted medical students come from the lowest 40% in family income.... THAT IS STAGGERING. and despite popular belief, med school populations are actually approaching/are pretty reflective of the country's population in regards to race. But the same thing cannot be said about the med school population in regards to SES. Also, if you look at which minorities ARE being accepted, they are the rich ones. In my opinion, it is more of an SES thing, not truly a race thing.

I am not ignorant enough to think I am perfectly correct! I respect every ones opinion. I was just throwing in my 2 cents. Let me rephrase that, I respect everyone's opinion unless you are some rich white kid crying about affirmative action because you can't see all the advantages being a rich white kid has given you.

The issue here is that the patient preference being catered to is "minority race patients are more likely to go to and follow advice from same race doctors" not "low SES patients desire doctors from low SES". Understanding and overcoming adversity isn't what lets a patient trust you in these cases - looking like them is.

The clear case of reverse bias is against Asians not whites IMO. White patients do not have issue with Asian doctors and so the usual logic I mention above does not apply. There is zero reason I can see for Asians to have higher bars set than whites.

 

[FutureBenCarson]

The issue here is that the patient preference being catered to is "minority race patients are more likely to go to and follow advice from same race doctors" not "low SES patients desire doctors from low SES". Understanding and overcoming adversity isn't what lets a patient trust you in these cases - looking like them is.

The clear case of reverse bias is against Asians not whites IMO. White patients do not have issue with Asian doctors and so the usual logic I mention above does not apply. There is zero reason I can see for Asians to have higher bars set than whites.

This is an extremely good point. But, I do think it is much easier for a poor person to understand the struggles of minorities than a rich person, and without a doubt has stronger interpersonal skills with minorities. For example, I was the only white kid in my graduating high school class. I feel very very comfortable interacting with minorities. However, your point is valid, and I have no response, you are correct. It is about being the same race. However, you can look up AAMC data. The med school population truly is reflecting the general population in recent years....So in that case, then why IS affirmative action still in place then?

Again I agree. According to AAMC data, given an average applicant's academic stats, an african american is FOUR times as likely to get into medical school than an asians. And twice as likely as a Caucasian. But if you follow the same logic you used against my argument... there is a plethora of Asian Doctors.... so maybe it is fair then, in accordance with your own logic. Since other minorities probably want someone who looks like them, not an Asian.

 

[SoCalPipeDreamer]

I'm ORM and consider myself fairly liberal, however I think this is the best article I've read on AA
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/...e_for_liberals_to_admit_it_isn_t_working.html

*Ignore the shock value title*
Apologies if it's already been posted in the thread!

tl;dr affirmative action would be more effective if it started early in life and tapered off over time. By closing the gaps before they form, colleges and employers won't face the impossible task of reconciling applicants from across the chasm of achievement and opportunity.

 

[efle]

This is an extremely good point. But, I do think it is much easier for a poor person to understand the struggles of minorities than a rich person, and without a doubt has stronger interpersonal skills with minorities. For example, I was the only white kid in my graduating high school class. I feel very very comfortable interacting with minorities. However, your point is valid, and I have no response, you are correct. It is about being the same race. However, you can look up AAMC data. The med school population truly is reflecting the general population in recent years....So in that case, then why IS affirmative action still in place then?

Again I agree. According to AAMC data, given an average applicant's academic stats, an african american is FOUR times as likely to get into medical school than an asians. And twice as likely as a Caucasian. But if you follow the same logic you used against my argument... there is a plethora of Asian Doctors.... so maybe it is fair then, in accordance with your own logic. Since other minorities probably want someone who looks like them, not an Asian.

Because when you remove the AA it quickly shifts away from being representative, with a big spike in Asians and reduction in other minorities. See: the University of California system when it became race blinded a couple decades ago

That's my point though - white patients don't have an issue with going to see or taking the prescribed drugs etc from an Asian doctor. There is no need to protect caucasians from an increase in Asian physicians, while there is a need to protect URM communities from shifting towards ORM physicians.

 

[FutureBenCarson]

Because when you remove the AA it quickly shifts away from being representative, with a big spike in Asians and reduction in other minorities. See: the University of California system when it became race blinded a couple decades ago

That's my point though - white patients don't have an issue with going to see or taking the prescribed drugs etc from an Asian doctor. There is no need to protect caucasians from an increase in Asian physicians, while there is a need to protect URM communities from shifting towards ORM physicians.

Again I agree with your first point.

But disagree with your second. Are you white? Do you know how white people feel? If everyone else wants people who look like them, why wouldn't white people as well? Whats more is, even though they are majorities, they still deserve the same respect. I think most white people would actually prefer white doctors, the same way every other race would prefer their own race doctor. Just because your a majority, doesn't mean you don't deserve/desire all the same things.

 

[ZedsDed]

Again I agree with your first point.

But disagree with your second. Are you white? Do you know how white people feel? If everyone else wants people who look like them, why wouldn't white people as well? Whats more is, even though they are majorities, they still deserve the same respect. I think most white people would actually prefer white doctors, the same way every other race would prefer their own race doctor. Just because your a majority, doesn't mean you don't deserve/desire all the same things.

I doubt it would go over very well if white patients requested to see only white physicians.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

 

[ranob]

You know what really annoys me? People who think we should replace affirmative actions with discrimination based on socioeconomic status. What a novel proposition - since standards are already lower for minorities than whites, why not lower them even more so that we can find some dumb, poor minorities to take the place of the rich, well-integrated, well-educated ones? And while we're at it, why not just replace the dumb, poor minorities with slightly-less dumb, poor whites, since we never really liked those minority students to begin with? Why not? After all, we're all poor, white, premeds here, right? (Disclaimer: Did not read the entire thread, only skimmed it. I apologize in advance if I'm misrepresenting anyone).

Affirmative action I get - when you have a large group of people (the 30% "minority" - 13% black, 17% hispanic), they're going to force you to take some of their own if you want to stay in business. Obviously, I may not like it as it puts me at a disadvantage, but I understand that it's necessary to gain the trust of the 30% minority patients. Socioeconomic discrimination though - that boggles the mind. Especially the fact that adcoms appear to be considering it in this thread. They should really know better. (Disclaimer: This argument applies to med school admissions only - I can't see a reason for affirmative action to exist in undergrad admissions. Although to be fair, it doesn't exist at every undergrad institution, just at the vast majority of them.)

 

[efle]

Again I agree with your first point.

But disagree with your second. Are you white? Do you know how white people feel? If everyone else wants people who look like them, why wouldn't white people as well? Whats more is, even though they are majorities, they still deserve the same respect. I think most white people would actually prefer white doctors, the same way every other race would prefer their own race doctor. Just because your a majority, doesn't mean you don't deserve/desire all the same things.

I am white, but I'm speaking based on the observed data from the papers I've looked at on this issue not my opinion - the significant effect is within URM patient to URM physician, eg black patient with black doctor > with white doctor. Havent seen white patient better with white doctor than Asian doctor. Would very much change my mind if such an effect did exist between ORM.

 

[Goro]

The major error in your thinking is that medical school admissions isn't a zero sum game. the poor ORM kid is NOT competing for the same seat in med school, both are competing for A seat. Both are just as likely to get accepted.

And fewer black males are applying to med school now than 20 years ago. Hence, they're a sought after quantity.

Jeeze, I do get tired of the extremely hypothetical "rich minority" getting trotted out. How many rich minorities are applying to med school????

Even then, wealthy black people have to travel a different road in this country, and the road travelled is meritorious. Don't believe me? Tell it to the people of Ferguson, MO, or Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates.

While I support affirmative action, I DO think it is unfair in very specific (probably very rare) situations. For example, consider the case of a very poor white person competing against a wealthy minority..... The only reason I think of this is because I come from a very poor background. Neither parent with a degree, only one of them completed high school, and I have 6 siblings. I live at around 50% of the US poverty line, which is considered to be living in "deep poverty". I worked FULL TIME throughout school to support my family, and still managed to maintain a 3.99 gpa and got a 525 MCAT. It does pain me to think that a minority with a 3.7 and 515 MCAT has an equivalent to better chance then I do....even if they are wealthy and did not face my same struggles. I DO understand the issues associated with being stuck in a system and not being able to get out. In fact, even though I am white, compared to a rich african american, I probably understand adversity more, coming from an extremely poor background, despite being white. So I feel like affirmative action helps rich minorities because they have all kinds of resources AND URM advantage, but hurts poor white people because they are missing the financial resources that 90% of white people have, but can't get the same URM advantage. See my point? This situation probably rarely happens, and despite it, I still support affirmative action strongly..

 

[Lawpy]

View attachment 194999

You do? It's 9 pages long and boring. But a single massive URM thread is always better than mini URM threads created by maniacs

 

[SoCalPipeDreamer]

You know what really annoys me? People who think we should replace affirmative actions with discrimination based on socioeconomic status. What a novel proposition - since standards are already lower for minorities than whites, why not lower them even more so that we can find some dumb, poor minorities to take the place of the rich, well-integrated, well-educated ones? And while we're at it, why not just replace the dumb, poor minorities with slightly-less dumb, poor whites, since we never really liked those minority students to begin with? Why not? After all, we're all poor, white, premeds here, right? (Disclaimer: Did not read the entire thread, only skimmed it. I apologize in advance if I'm misrepresenting anyone).

Affirmative action I get - when you have a large group of people (the 30% "minority" - 13% black, 17% hispanic), they're going to force you to take some of their own if you want to stay in business. Obviously, I may not like it as it puts me at a disadvantage, but I understand that it's necessary to gain the trust of the 30% minority patients. Socioeconomic discrimination though - that boggles the mind. Especially the fact that adcoms appear to be considering it in this thread. They should really know better. (Disclaimer: This argument applies to med school admissions only - I can't see a reason for affirmative action to exist in undergrad admissions. Although to be fair, it doesn't exist at every undergrad institution, just at the vast majority of them.)

I'm having some trouble understanding your argument through the sarcasm. Are you saying that a person's socioeconomic status has no bearing on how qualified they are for medical school?

 

[ranob]

I'm having some trouble understanding your argument through the sarcasm. Are you saying that a person's socioeconomic status has no bearing on how qualified they are for medical school?

Yup.
Edit: Although it could be argued that a higher socioeconomic status results in higher performance in med school, that would be a difficult argument to make.
Edit2: Efle summed it up quite well.

 

[efle]

SES-based AA would be incredibly unlikely because there is no external indicator of growing up without money. Poor people can't behave in a way that mandates poor people becoming physicians because they can't tell who did and didn't share that experience when deciding to seek medical treatment or deciding to comply with medical advice.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

You do? It's 9 pages long and boring. But a single massive URM thread is always better than mini URM threads created by maniacs

Lol, do you not see the storm in the pic?!

 

[FutureBenCarson]

The major error in your thinking is that medical school admissions isn't a zero sum game. the poor ORM kid is NOT competing for the same seat in med school, both are competing for A seat. Both are just as likely to get accepted.

And fewer black males are applying to med school now than 20 years ago. Hence, they're a sought after quantity.

Jeeze, I do get tired of the extremely hypothetical "rich minority" getting trotted out. How many rich minorities are applying to med school????

Even then, wealthy black people have to travel a different road in this country, and the road travelled is meritorious. Don't believe me? Tell it to the people of Ferguson, MO, or Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates.

I think most of the minorities that are being accepted are in fact wealthy, and it is probably as numerous as the amount of poor white people.

I agree with everything you said, and am not refuting it. I just think that coming from a poor background is much more difficult than anyone likes to admit. Has anyone on here who is refuting SES as a disadvantage , worked full time to support their family, gone to class full time, AND maintained MD worthy grades? Have any of you literally gone a few nights a week without sleep because you had to work the overnight shift, but had to go to class and study during the day? From experience I can tell you that its near impossible. I do not think SES is discussed enough. I think it is a huge disadvantage. enormous. And anybody who hasn't lived it has no idea what I am talking about.

My high school I attended didn't even have chalk boards in every room. While these suburban schools are considering giving tablets to every student! The resources available to even just average income students, compared to those of us who live in deep poverty, is ridiculous. But people just write of low SES as if its not even comparable to URM.

And these issues are related because the majority of low SES people are minorities. However poor non urm's do get hosed in the process if SES isn't taken into account, and that is not fair. Wealthy people got resources. URM's have URM. Some people have both. But ORM low SES people have nothing- and if you are really poor- majorily lack resources, which puts you at a huge disadvantage.

The path to success for someone born into deep poverty is just as meritorious as a wealthy minority, I guarantee it. I think affirmative action is important- and needed. But I think SES consideration is equally important. Seeing as less than 10% of med students come from the lower 40% of family income. This issue is actually more pressing than people admit I think- but nobody knows because only 7% of the population lives below 50% of the poverty line. Which if you're keeping track, is less than the % of the population for most minorities.

 

[efle]

I think most of the minorities that are being accepted are in fact wealthy, and it is probably as numerous as the amount of poor white people.

I agree with everything you said, and am not refuting it. I just think that coming from a poor background is much more difficult than anyone likes to admit. Has anyone on here who is refuting SES as a disadvantage , worked full time to support their family, gone to class full time, AND maintained MD worthy grades? Have any of you literally gone a few nights a week without sleep because you had to work the overnight shift, but had to go to class and study during the day? From experience I can tell you that its near impossible. I do not think SES is discussed enough. I think it is a huge disadvantage. enormous. And anybody who hasn't lived it has no idea what I am talking about.

My high school I attended didn't even have chalk boards in every room. While these suburban schools are considering giving tablets to every student! The resources available to even just average income students, compared to those of us who live in deep poverty, is ridiculous. But people just write of low SES as if its not even comparable to URM.

And these issues are related because the majority of low SES people are minorities. However poor non urm's do get hosed in the process if SES isn't taken into account, and that is not fair. Wealthy people got resources. URM's have URM. Some people have both. But ORM low SES people have nothing- and if you are really poor- majorily lack resources, which puts you at a huge disadvantage.

The path to success for someone born into deep poverty is just as meritorious as a wealthy minority, I guarantee it. I think affirmative action is important- and needed. But I think SES consideration is equally important. Seeing as less than 10% of med students come from the lower 40% of family income. This issue is actually more pressing than people admit I think- but nobody knows because only 7% of the population lives below 50% of the poverty line. Which if you're keeping track, is less than the % of the population for most minorities.

You speak as if AA is supposed to function as a reward for overcoming adversity. It is aimed at best serving the patient populations. Having no money growing up does not make patients more likely to seek and follow your advice. That is why race is valuable to assess much more so than SES.

 

[FutureBenCarson]

You speak as if AA is supposed to function as a reward for overcoming adversity. It is aimed at best serving the patient populations. Having no money growing up does not make patients more likely to seek and follow your advice. That is why race is valuable to assess much more so than SES.

You are incorrect though. AA was originally put in place to increase the # of minorities because of racial issues. It was believed they had a harder time getting into med school since they made up a larger portion of the poor population. Only relatively recently did the notion of similar to self preference come to the surface.

To many people, AA is about the fact that it is somehow more difficult to get into medicine as a minority.

 

[raindropx]

Adversity does have influence if you talk about it in other areas of application--it make you seem more mature to adcoms. However, that's not the goal of AA.

 

[Goro]

Not at my school!

I think most of the minorities that are being accepted are in fact wealthy, and it is probably as numerous as the amount of poor white people.

 

[efle]

You are incorrect though. AA was originally put in place to increase the # of minorities because of racial issues. It was believed they had a harder time getting into med school since they made up a larger portion of the poor population. Only relatively recently did the notion of similar to self preference come to the surface.

To many people, AA is about the fact that it is somehow more difficult to get into medicine as a minority.

I agree it was originally to counteract disadvantage due to minority status. That is no longer the case - look at Asians with their higher standards than whites despite facing racism. It is at present an imperfect but nescessary practice for the sake of patients rather than the physicians.

 

[FutureBenCarson]

I agree it was originally to counteract disadvantage due to minority status. That is no longer the case - look at Asians with their higher standards than whites despite facing racism. It is at present an imperfect but nescessary practice for the sake of patients rather than the physicians.

Extremely well put. But also something to think about, Poor people, regardless of race, tend to come from the inner city. The inner city and rural population are typically the most medically underserved. Poor people are more willing and likely to practice in these area according to Dr. Sullivan from University of Georgia. He advocates for more emphasis on low SES as well. Also he says that achievements from low SES individuals should be taken with more impact since they typically have much less resources and need to work to support their families. Resulting in less study time, research time, etc.

 

[efle]

Extremely well put. But also something to think about, Poor people, regardless of race, tend to come from the inner city. The inner city and rural population are typically the most medically underserved. Poor people are more willing and likely to practice in these area according to Dr. Sullivan from University of Georgia. He advocates for more emphasis on low SES as well. Also he says that achievements from low SES individuals should be taken with more impact since they typically have much less resources and need to work to support their families. Resulting in less study time, research time, etc.

I think the biggest factor there is the considerably lower wages earned in under served areas and in primary care in general. Countries with a more flat wage distribution among physicians also see a lot more people seeking PC (to the point that its actually more competitive than specialties) and as a result have a better geographical distribution.

 

[FutureBenCarson]

I think the biggest factor there is the considerably lower wages earned in under served areas and in primary care in general. Countries with a more flat wage distribution among physicians also see a lot more people seeking PC (to the point that its actually more competitive than specialties) and as a result have a better geographical distribution.

Agreed, always nice having true, advantageous discussion. Civil- not sarcastically making fun of other people's arguments.....

 

[efle]

not sarcastically making fun of other people's arguments.....

Tbh, I do my fair share of this on SDN

 

[raindropx]

Tbh, I do my fair share of this on SDN

we know

 

[FutureBenCarson]

Tbh, I do my fair share of this on SDN

haha its ok. I've seen some of your posts and actually respect all of your opinions a lot

 

[efle]

we know

I must be pretty bad if someone who joined today is calling me out

haha its ok. I've seen some of your posts and actually respect all of your opinions a lot

that makes two of us !

 

[raindropx]

I must be pretty bad if someone who joined today is calling me out


that makes two of us !

I'm a good observer

 

[efle]

I'm a good observer

Or a returning banee

 

[raindropx]

Or a returning banee

let's not make assumptions now

 

[efle]

let's not make assumptions now

It's just an option! I know a couple people that keep coming back under new accounts

 

[raindropx]

It's just an option! I know a couple people that keep coming back under new accounts

fair enough efle

 

[Skyrich]

What we really should be talking about.....is how secondary apps are scams.

 

[raindropx]

What we really should be talking about.....is how secondary apps are scams.

Let's do it the way some foreign countries do and base med school acceptance solely on entrance exam scores

 

[efle]

Let's do it the way some foreign countries do and base med school acceptance solely on entrance exam scores

I'm sure this was intended to be sarcastic, but there are places with this practice that have stellar healthcare. Having doctors that are charismatic and willing to put in the hours to appear altruistic isn't all it's hyped up to be!

 

[FutureBenCarson]

Let's do it the way some foreign countries do and base med school acceptance solely on entrance exam scores

I'm down lol

 

[ZedsDed]

Having doctors that are charismatic and willing to put in the hours to appear altruistic isn't all it's hyped up to be!

Lol, sad but true...

 

[raindropx]

I'm sure this was intended to be sarcastic, but there are places with this practice that have stellar healthcare. Having doctors that are charismatic and willing to put in the hours to appear altruistic isn't all it's hyped up to be!

I like their way better rather than all this stocking closets as means of "patient care experiences" and other box checking crap premeds do here. It holds little value in my opinion. Anyone can spin a story about wanting to work with underserved after a few well planned soup kitchen gigs. I like the entrance exam score idea as long as its coupled with interviews and letters of recs

 

[FutureBenCarson]

I like their way better rather than all this stocking closets as means of "patient care experiences" and other box checking crap premeds do here. It holds little value in my opinion. Anyone can spin a story about wanting to work with underserved after a few well planned soup kitchen gigs. I like the entrance exam score idea as long as its coupled with interviews and letters of recs

I like 'Merica

 

[efle]

I like their way better rather than all this stocking closets as means of "patient care experiences" and other box checking crap premeds do here. It holds little value in my opinion. Anyone can spin a story about wanting to work with underserved after a few well planned soup kitchen gigs. I like the entrance exam score idea as long as its coupled with interviews and letters of recs

I agree the system does a terrible job of differentiating the box checkers. I feel like interviews are useful for spotting psychos but much like public speaking, many people simply aren't themselves under the spotlight and pressure. I like the idea of LoR's since the writers can get to know the applicant for more than an hour long chat, but then so much rides on the letter writer's abilities.

I like 'Merica

I did too until I got acquainted with Scandinavia

 

[raindropx]

I agree the system does a terrible job of differentiating the box checkers. I feel like interviews are useful for spotting psychos but much like public speaking, many people simply aren't themselves under the spotlight and pressure. I like the idea of LoR's since the writers can get to know the applicant for more than an hour long chat, but then so much rides on the letter writer's abilities.


I did too until I got acquainted with Scandinavia

Every school should have a committee who can standardize the letters. Otherwise anyone can pick 3 professors who they have good relationships with and wala, we all end up with glowing lors.

 

[ranob]

Extremely well put. But also something to think about, Poor people, regardless of race, tend to come from the inner city. The inner city and rural population are typically the most medically underserved. Poor people are more willing and likely to practice in these area according to Dr. Sullivan from University of Georgia. He advocates for more emphasis on low SES as well. Also he says that achievements from low SES individuals should be taken with more impact since they typically have much less resources and need to work to support their families. Resulting in less study time, research time, etc.

Rich people, regardless of race, tend to come from rich places. The rich population is typically the most medically overserved, because they overpay for medical care (poor people get it for free). Rich people are more willing and likely to practice in rich areas, where the demand for doctors is highest (rich people in rich areas pay them extra to practice over there). Achievements from high SES individuals should be taken with more impact since they typically have much less extrinsic motivation and work at hospitals not because they need to to support their families, but because medicine is a higher calling for them. And still find time to fit in studying, research, etc, because they're actually good at time management.

Edit: Missing a /s. Just pointing out how spurious the quoted post is.