Dog labs?! What??!!!!

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Tawantinsuyu

I've heard that some schools have first year medical students operate on anesthetized dogs from local animal shelters?! Is this true?!!! If so, I think that is truly messed up. There are plenty of ways to learn about anatomy and physiology without operating on live dogs....

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Gut reaction: this was true in the past, but with IACUC rules and regulations, it would be damn near impossible today. It's hard enough for my colleagues to do research on rodents.
 
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I've heard that some schools have first year medical students operate on anesthetized dogs from local animal shelters?! Is this true?!!! If so, I think that is truly messed up. There are plenty of ways to learn about anatomy and physiology without operating on live dogs....

Did you hear this from like a 100 year old doctor you were shadowing?
 
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My 40-something Anatomy & Physiology prof dissected anesthetized dogs and turtles in COLLEGE.
Uggh.
 
I've heard that some schools have first year medical students operate on anesthetized dogs from local animal shelters?! Is this true?!!! If so, I think that is truly messed up. There are plenty of ways to learn about anatomy and physiology without operating on live dogs....

If they aren't doing that, they are still using them all for research/testing. That's not a happy life for a pup. I remember when I found out the school I was at had tons of dogs in the basement where no one could go unless they were working with them. It made me very sad. :(
 
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I personally find the practice of medical students being taught pelvic and rectal exams on anesthetized pre-op patients (without their explicit consent) to be much more concerning (see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16206868).
Jesus, really? That seems wildly unethical. If I have to ask a patient if I can shadow her examining physician, how is this considered acceptable?
 
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Jesus, really? That seems wildly unethical. If I have to ask a patient if I can shadow her examining physician, how is this considered acceptable?

I think technically patients in teaching hospitals sign releases that indicate that they may (or will) be used as teaching material. My issue is that it is not always discussed in detail with a patient exactly what that may mean for them.
 
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I think technically patients in teaching hospitals sign releases that indicate that they may (or will) be used as teaching material. My issue is that it is not always discussed in detail with a patient exactly what that may mean for them.

Signing a release is different from "informed consent".
 
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It was still happening not that long ago http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/09/bambi-syndrome-saved-life.html

I don't think it happens anymore but dogs are still used in research. I would absolutely not do research in any facility that has dogs, it would drive me crazy knowing they are there. I honestly would not be able to kill a lab mouse either... But at least mice weren't domesticated as human companions who rely on our care... Ugh, I'll stop now.
 
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Our interactions with non humans are wildly irrational. :eyebrow: Love some, hate some, kill some, hug some.
 
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I would absolutely not do research in any facility that has dogs, it would drive me crazy knowing they are there. I honestly would not be able to kill a lab mouse either... But at least mice weren't domesticated as human companions who rely on our care... Ugh, I'll stop now.

As long as their anesthetized, is it really a big deal? They (hopefully) lived a happy life then one day took a nap and didn't wake up.
 
As long as their anesthetized, is it really a big deal? They (hopefully) lived a happy life then one day took a nap and didn't wake up.

You are ending the life of another living being without their consent - or the possibility of their giving consent - so it is categorically unethical (in my opinion). It would be one thing if this was the only way to teach these techniques in which case it would be ethically permissible but not morally ideal (or even moral, for that matter) but the fact is it is not the only way to teach these things and all but 7 medical institutions in the country have found more ethical ways to do this without sacrificing training efficacy.
 
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You are ending the life of another living being without their consent - or the possibility of their giving consent - so it is categorically unethical (in my opinion). It would be one thing if this was the only way to teach these techniques in which case it would be ethically permissible but not morally ideal (or even moral, for that matter) but the fact is it is not the only way to teach these things and all but 7 medical institutions in the country have found more ethical ways to do this without sacrificing training efficacy.

Vegan?
 
You are ending the life of another living being without their consent - or the possibility of their giving consent - so it is categorically unethical (in my opinion). It would be one thing if this was the only way to teach these techniques in which case it would be ethically permissible but not morally ideal (or even moral, for that matter) but the fact is it is not the only way to teach these things and all but 7 medical institutions in the country have found more ethical ways to do this without sacrificing training efficacy.
This.

Our ethics - whether we acknowledge this or not - are based upon not intelligence, not "human-ness", but sentience and a capacity to suffer. Suffering is bad and we - excluding survival situations where killing is morally permissible - don't want others to experience it because we don't want to either. As per the first sentence, all sentient beings, obviously including humans but hundreds of other species as well, have a right to not suffer as much as possible. This is because our ethics - as they are now - are based upon the capacity to suffer. If it were intelligence, we would be justified in grinding up our mentally disabled into burgers. If it were based upon species, we would be justified in giving more rights to whites than to blacks. Group membership doesn't afford one greater rights. Maybe different, but not greater. A capacity to suffer, sentience, is the only all encompassing factor which engages our morality and is, thus, the basis for our ethics, whether we know it or not.

If we ever mature in our dealings with other animals, we'd have to acknowledge that they have a right to not be exploited by us for anything short of survival. Need a life saving medical technology? Okay. Use as few and do as little harm as possible to the animal participants. Need to hunt to survive b/c you're in an Inuit tribe? Okay. It's survival and it's justifiable. Want a cheeseburger? No. You don't have the right to end someone else's life just so you can have something you want.

Captivity is another interesting issue. We shouldn't exploit animals for education and entertainment, but if captivity is in the animal's best interest - they'd otherwise suffer or die - then there is merit in holding them, but in as least impactful a way as possible.

I love this topic. I'm interested in getting more perspectives and arguments.
 
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If people spent as much time worrying about and debating treatment of humans, the world might be a better place.

Instead of asking "Vegan?!" or "eat meat?!", people should ask "Buy any Chinese made goods?".
 
If people spent as much time worrying about and debating treatment of humans, the world might be a better place.

Instead of asking "Vegan?!" or "eat meat?!", people should ask "Buy any Chinese made goods?".
Until we learn to live peacably and cooperatively with others of our own species, it's unlikely that we would, as a culture, extend the rights to animals that they are owed.
 
JHU is still doing this. A friend protested against it a few weeks ago.
 
I was just curious how much you applied the logic in your personal life. My personal belief is that taking the life of a sentient creature shouldn't be done with cruel intentions, and that the pain/suffering should be minimized. This is a well-debated topic and if I wanted to rehash it I'd do so with friends studying in doctoral philosophy programs, not with premeds online :)

Vegetarian. My personal choice to not consume meat, however, has very little to do with the logic I just presented you.
 
As long as their anesthetized, is it really a big deal? They (hopefully) lived a happy life then one day took a nap and didn't wake up.

Dogs used in research do not have a happy life. They are often bred in the lab or taken from shelters (thankfully, in many states shelters refuse to give any animals to research) and can spend years locked in a lab. Even those dogs that would be euthanized in a shelter would probably suffer less from a painless death than from being subjected to surgeries, diseases, etc. in a research lab. If I could get into JH med school, I would love to work at their center for alternative research methods. But that 29 mcat...
 
JHU is still doing this. A friend protested against it a few weeks ago.
Dang, JHU is the school I'd least expect for this to happen. Instead of, like, an unknown Carribean school.
 
Until we learn to live peacably and cooperatively with others of our own species, it's unlikely that we would, as a culture, extend the rights to animals that they are owed.

I'm not of a mind they're owed a thing.

It's just amusing (to me) that some of the people carping about dog rights are probably posting from iPads. A product made in factories where employees committed suicide to protest working conditions and where dog is on the menu.
 
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I'm not of a mind they're owed a thing.

It's just amusing (to me) that some of the people carping about dog rights are probably posting from iPads. A product made in factories where employees committed suicide to protest working conditions and where dog is on the menu.

I find it funny that people think that *all ethical behavior* is a pre-requisite for *some ethical behavior*. I don't buy or eat meat because I don't consider the lives most animals lived before being killed to be reasonably without suffering - there are exceptions in some farming practices and if I know these producers I will buy their product. However, if you are to hold every business to a very high ethical standard then you would end up not purchasing anything at all really. Morality is not a pre-requisite for Capitalism and saying that everyone in China eat's dog so you should boycott the chinese is horribly myopic. By that logic you should move out of the US because your tax dollars fund drone strike programs with significant collateral damage etc. This sort of slippery slope will lead you down a path where you can't do anything because hardly anything is morally ideal. That is why the concept of ethically permissible exists - no Im not saying working conditions in China are ethically permissible.

You can't avoid dealing with problem B just because of problem A when problem A and B are separate problems and a response to A is not a necessary condition for having a response to problem B, Formal Logic 101. I.e False Choice fallacy.
 
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I find it funny that people think that *all ethical behavior* is a pre-requisite for *some ethical behavior*. I don't buy or eat meat because I don't consider the lives most animals lived before being killed to be reasonably without suffering - there are exceptions in some farming practices and if I know these producers I will buy their product. However, if you are to hold every business to a very high ethical standard then you would end up not purchasing anything at all really. Morality is not a pre-requisite for Capitalism and saying that everyone in China eat's dog so you should boycott the chinese is horribly myopic. By that logic you should move out of the US because your tax dollars fund drone strike programs with significant collateral damage etc. This sort of slippery slope will lead you down a path where you can't do anything because hardly anything is morally ideal. That is why the concept of ethically permissible exists - no Im not saying working conditions in China are ethically permissible.

You can't avoid dealing with problem B just because of problem A when problem A and B are separate problems and a response to A is not a necessary condition for having a response to problem B, Formal Logic 101. I.e False Choice fallacy.

It's about people BS'ing themselves, not trotting out logical fallacies anyone can dig up online in a few seconds.

People are free to choose what they feel is ethical. There's just no need to make declarations and rationalizations from a high horse.
 
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It's about people BS'ing themselves, not trotting out logical fallacies anyone can dig up online in a few seconds.

People are free to choose what they feel is ethical. There's just no need to make declarations and rationalizations from a high horse.

Lol then what's the point of the study of ethics if everyone just makes up their own rules? No we come together and make a consensus on what we believe is right and good, this is how a non-anarchistic society works.

The point of the logical fallacy is to show you that it isn't people BSing themselves, they are different problems with a different underlying logic.
 
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Lol then what's the point of the study of ethics if everyone just makes up their own rules? No we come together and make a consensus on what we believe is right and good, this is how a non-anarchistic society works.

The point of the logical fallacy is to show you that it isn't people BSing themselves, they are different problems with a different underlying logic.

Do ethics truly exist if they're defined by consensus?
 
Do ethics truly exist if they're defined by consensus?

Yes? By definition. Morality is what can be objective or subjective (varying from person to person), Ethics are fluid and informed by social structures/thought. For example, once it was ethical to cut off a thief's hands if he was caught. Now it is not. It can be argued that it was NEVER moral (if you believe in objective morality) or that it was ONCE moral (if you believe in subjective morality).
 
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Do ethics truly exist if they're defined by consensus?
Ethics are applied morality, informed by experience, culture and personality. One could say there is definite morality, but it is up to the individual to apply that morality in some kind of ethic.
 
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It's about people BS'ing themselves, not trotting out logical fallacies anyone can dig up online in a few seconds.

People are free to choose what they feel is ethical. There's just no need to make declarations and rationalizations from a high horse.
Logic is a process by which we are able to determine which thinking processes work and which do not. It's a standard intellectual tool. Conflating thinking with an elevated moral position is dishonest and probably the source of much of the anti-intellectualism we see in the US.
 
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I don't believe there's an anti-intellectual movement in the US.

Anti-pseudointellectualism? Definitely.

Have to study.
 
I am glad that someone cares about factory workers in China. Just because I feel more passionate about the plight of dogs in research doesn't mean that I don't think Chinese factories are a problem. It's a good thing when we are devoted to different causes because it makes us, as a society, aware of a greater range of moral issues. So while I donate to animal rescue charities, I am glad that someone else donates to orphanages in Africa, etc. You can't do everything, especially when maintaining moral integrity in its purest form would be very difficult (as mentioned above, you'd pretty much have to move out of the US). Doing something is always better than not doing anything at all.
 
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I don't believe there's an anti-intellectual movement in the US.

Anti-pseudointellectualism? Definitely.

Have to study.
You should either watch Fox news or visit any number of large conservative churches. Pretty much everywhere on the far right.
 
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How do people compare dogs to pigs. -_- I've had both as pets, dogs are loyal to a fault.
 
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You should either watch Fox news or visit any number of large conservative churches. Pretty much everywhere on the far right.

It's not a far right thing (personally). The bar for being an intellectual has been lowered so everyone can feel smart. Instead of doing any actual great thinking, just memorize a bunch of facts, perform a simple web search or, decide against watching television and voila'! You're an intellectual!!. It's become a self-appointed title, like artist.

Seeing poofters overtly reading Che' in coffee shops (hoping to get noticed) almost makes me puke. Publicly working on a screenplay?! Darn near a seizure, LOL!

It's possible a teeeeeeeeeny bit of the problem is me, LOL!
 
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How do people compare dogs to pigs. -_- I've had both as pets, dogs are loyal to a fault.

Not to mention that there is a reason why we have therapy dogs, guide dogs, police dogs, herding dogs, dogs detecting low blood sugar or imminent seizures, etc... Dogs have evolved to have a special bond with us.
 
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Not to mention that there is a reason why we have therapy dogs, guide dogs, police dogs, herding dogs, dogs detecting low blood sugar or imminent seizures, etc... Dogs have evolved to have a special bond with us.
Yeah. They've been domesticated for work and companionship, not for food.
 
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Not to mention that there is a reason why we have therapy dogs, guide dogs, police dogs, herding dogs, dogs detecting low blood sugar or imminent seizures, etc... Dogs have evolved to have a special bond with us.
I visit my professors during office hours just to visit their dogs. Best stress relief.
 
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Well. This is about the creepiest thing I've read in the past month or two.

Does anyone know if this still happens?
I agree. The ob/gyn I shadow had to gain verbal and written consent from the OR patients prior to me even being in the room, much less assisting in the actual surgery. You can't just walk into an OR and say, "Is anyone using that woman's genitals?". NG. No good.
 
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I don't believe there's an anti-intellectual movement in the US.

Anti-pseudointellectualism? Definitely.

Have to study.

The USA is very anti-intellectual. Everything is about practicality, utility, return of investment - ideals that work actively against intellectualism. Nobody wants to learn things because they are "too hard", everyone thinks Greek, Latin, and the humanities are all "useless", etc. As far as the genera population goes, the US is very anti-intellectual. People don't like to hear "fancy words" or read anything longer than a few sentences. People don't question what they hear in the media or go out of their way to read multiple sources. People equate reading something on the internet as reading source material (provided that internet source isn't a paper or original publication).

I don't think it is fair to make a distinction between intellectualism and pseudointellectualism. A sophisticated enough argument can seem to be pseudo-intellectual but may actually be sound and valid. Likewise, it could just be bunk. You wouldn't know unless you understood the subject well enough to even fully comprehend the argument in question. An intellectual position would be to dissect the argument and see if it works or not. An anti-intellectual position would be to just write it off as pseudo-intellectualism and cease to think about the problem immediately. Most people, I would venture to say, would choose the latter as they are either lazy, uninterested, or incorrectly equating a discussion with a "fight".

A popular example is quantum mechanics.

Popular authors (Deepak Chopra) like to cite quantum principles to back up some wild new-agey ideas about consciousness or medicine or whatever (See Chopra's "Quantum Healing")<<< pseudo-intellectual
However, 20th century philosophers have cited quantum mechanics in arguments about consciousness that are actually cogent and valid (in that the premises are true, the argument may not be) (side-note: admittedly, other philosophers do this not quite so validly) <<< intellectual (See Derek Parfit's Teleportation problem and the related literature)

You cannot possibly make the distinction about which one is pseudo_int or int because you would have to have a pre-requisite understanding of quantum mechanics in order to do so (in the case of deepak chopra you really only need GC I to understand what he's saying is patently false). Then, both would be imperceptibly different to an ignorant observer. To even make the distinction is anti-intellectual because it claims knowledge you don't have and are not interested in having because (it follows) that you do not deem the knowledge critical to making the distinction.

For clarity:

You can call people pseudo-intellectuals in specific cases where you know why they are wrong and how they are wrong and call them out on it, this would be a discussion and engaging in it would be an intellectual thing to do - because it is for the sake of the knowledge at hand.

However, calling people pseudo-intellectuals and then not even considering what they are saying or how they are saying it is anti-intellectual.

Calling someone a poofter because of their appearance and then assuming they are only reading in public for your attention is markedly egocentric. Especially if you take some silly pleasure out of pointing that out to yourself, or them. Sure, you might be right some times but what do you gain out of it? What do they gain? Nothing.
 
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The USA is very anti-intellectual. Everything is about practicality, utility, return of investment - ideals that work actively against intellectualism. Nobody wants to learn things because they are "too hard", everyone thinks Greek, Latin, and the humanities are all "useless", etc. As far as the genera population goes, the US is very anti-intellectual. People don't like to hear "fancy words" or read anything longer than a few sentences. People don't question what they hear in the media or go out of their way to read multiple sources. People equate reading something on the internet as reading source material (provided that internet source isn't a paper or original publication).

I don't think it is fair to make a distinction between intellectualism and pseudointellectualism. A sophisticated enough argument can seem to be pseudo-intellectual but may actually be sound and valid. Likewise, it could just be bunk. You wouldn't know unless you understood the subject well enough to even fully comprehend the argument in question. An intellectual position would be to dissect the argument and see if it works or not. An anti-intellectual position would be to just write it off as pseudo-intellectualism and cease to think about the problem immediately. Most people, I would venture to say, would choose the latter as they are either lazy, uninterested, or incorrectly equating a discussion with a "fight".

A popular example is quantum mechanics.

Popular authors (Deepak Chopra) like to cite quantum principles to back up some wild new-agey ideas about consciousness or medicine or whatever (See Chopra's "Quantum Healing")<<< pseudo-intellectual
However, 20th century philosophers have cited quantum mechanics in arguments about consciousness that are actually cogent and valid (in that the premises are true, the argument may not be) (side-note: admittedly, other philosophers do this not quite so validly) <<< intellectual (See Derek Parfit's Teleportation problem and the related literature)

You cannot possibly make the distinction about which one is pseudo_int or int because you would have to have a pre-requisite understanding of quantum mechanics in order to do so (in the case of deepak chopra you really only need GC I to understand what he's saying is patently false). Then, both would be imperceptibly different to an ignorant observer. To even make the distinction is anti-intellectual because it claims knowledge you don't have and are not interested in having because (it follows) that you do not deem the knowledge critical to making the distinction.

For clarity:

You can call people pseudo-intellectuals in specific cases where you know why they are wrong and how they are wrong and call them out on it, this would be a discussion and engaging in it would be an intellectual thing to do - because it is for the sake of the knowledge at hand.

However, calling people pseudo-intellectuals and then not even considering what they are saying or how they are saying it is anti-intellectual.

Calling someone a poofter because of their appearance and then assuming they are only reading in public for your attention is markedly egocentric. Especially if you take some silly pleasure out of pointing that out to yourself, or them. Sure, you might be right some times but what do you gain out of it? What do they gain? Nothing.

Most of it is about ego, LOL!

There's a huge difference between sincere intellectual pursuit and playing "Peek-a-boo" with someone's baby for the specific purpose of regurgitating object permanence from an intro psych course.

I'm anti-pooftery, not anti-intellectual. The distinction is pretty clear, to me.

In regards to recognizing attention seeking behavior, I'll quote Dylan and say "You don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows". It doesn't take any special insight, brains, or great intellectual effort to see when people are doing stuff like that to garner attention. They're like peacocks, just with books or laptops.
 
I've heard of people in their 40's doing this. My undergrad institution still uses rats in Physio lab.
 
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