Doing a PhD Vs. Applying to Med School

[FFH]

As someone who knows well what it meant to get a PhD AND what it meant to apply to medical school, I decided to compare the two after some good wine.

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[Lamel]

You really think the years it took you to get a PhD are comparable in difficulty to the medical school application process? That's really hard to believe.

 

[FFH]

You really think the years it took you to get a PhD are comparable in difficulty to the medical school application process? That's really hard to believe.

Good point Lamel. Applying to med school probably does not cost as many years of hard work as getting a PhD (with the exception of some, which can be done in 3-4 years). Although we do see that many of us started planning for a successful med school application very very early on in our lives.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

@FriendlyFH, do you have a specific specialty (or specialties) in mind?

 

[FFH]

@FriendlyFH, do you have a specific specialty (or specialties) in mind?

Are you asking about the PhD in comparison, or you are asking me specifically?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Are you asking about the PhD in comparison, or you are asking me specifically?

Specifically (if that's ok). It's likely (or definite) that you'll have more knowledge about the basic science behind a field (or more) with a PhD.
You don't have to answer if you feel that it's off topic. I was just curious.
Anyway, congrats on the PhD!

 

[deleted642188]

As an undergraduate research assistant, researching is a very tedious project and progress tends to be pretty slow. I remember that a publication is suppose to have been submitted last year but we waited an extra 7 months until we felt confident for submission; The publishers still felt that it wasn't good enough and asked us for more data.

I remember one thing that an old family friend grad student once told me about the difference between a good dissertation vs a bad one. "You're spending 6 years of your life on one microscopic aspect of your field. How does this one microscopic aspect of your discipline make an impact on science?"

 

[FFH]

As an undergraduate research assistant, researching is a very tedious project and progress tends to be pretty slow. I remember that a publication is suppose to have been submitted last year but we waited an extra 7 months until we felt confident for submission; The publishers still felt that it wasn't good enough and asked us for more data.

Just like reapplying to med school.

"You're spending 6 years of your life on one microscopic aspect of your field. How does this one microscopic aspect of your discipline make an impact on science?"

Well said. That's why I want to do medicine in addition to research.

 

[deleted642188]

Just like reapplying to med school.


Well said. That's why I want to do medicine in addition to research.

Well my question is are you going for academia or just industrial work (i.e. Merck/Regeneron/Amgen/etc.).... people always tell me a Ph.D. is only necessary for academia and not necessarily industry

 

[FFH]

Well my question is are you going for academia or just industrial work (i.e. Merck/Regeneron/Amgen/etc.).... people always tell me a Ph.D. is only necessary for academia and not necessarily industry

I'm going to med school next year, thankfully I'm already admitted into one. Regarding your question--after having seen many graduate students coming in and out of the labs that I used to manage, it seems to me that a Ph.D is necessary for academia and great for industry. A master might be sufficient to make some money as a tech in the industry, but in order to move far ahead as the lead, you'll need the PhD. Are you interested in med school? @awetmop ? Are you debating between the two paths?

 

[deleted642188]

I'm going to med school next year, thankfully I'm already admitted into one. Regarding your question--after having seen many graduate students coming in and out of the labs that I used to manage, it seems to me that a Ph.D is necessary for academia and great for industry. A master might be sufficient to make some money as a tech in the industry, but in order to move far ahead as the lead, you'll need the PhD. Are you interested in med school? @awetmop ? Are you debating between the two paths?

I actually contemplated an Md/Ph.D. but now chasing only the MD for a few reasons:

My MCAT (10/10/10) probably aren't competitive enough for any MSTP programs.

Research in general is very frustrating because there's much trouble shooting

also I know that there's so much politics involved; in order to be a successful grad student not only do you need good research topic but also need to be at good terms with the PI and your lab mates

BTW congratulations with the acceptance!! I was suppose to apply this year but I decided to not graduate in three years and take my time.

 

[FFH]

I actually contemplated an Md/Ph.D. but now chasing only the MD for a few reasons:

My MCAT (10/10/10) probably aren't competitive enough for any MSTP programs.

Research in general is very frustrating because there's much trouble shooting

also I know that there's so much politics involved; in order to be a successful grad student not only do you need good research topic but also need to be at good terms with the PI and your lab mates

Unfortunately yes, yes and yes. The last one especially.

BTW congratulations with the acceptance!! I was suppose to apply this year but I decided to not graduate in three years and take my time.

Aw, thank you! I'm indeed very happy about the acceptance. You are making a very wise decision. One that was strongly supported by several adcoms that I know. I took 8 years off. Right now, it feels like a blessing to go back to school full time for me. While it can feel like a continuous drudgery for many who went straight into med school and who never take a break from the academics. It feels great to live a little bit outside the towers before you go back in. Maybe retake the MCAT if you like. The second time studying for MCAT can bring in some sudden clarity.

 

[deleted642188]

I'm going to med school next year, thankfully I'm already admitted into one. Regarding your question--after having seen many graduate students coming in and out of the labs that I used to manage, it seems to me that a Ph.D is necessary for academia and great for industry. A master might be sufficient to make some money as a tech in the industry, but in order to move far ahead as the lead, you'll need the PhD. Are you interested in med school? @awetmop ? Are you debating between the two paths?

I should also add that during my first summer research internship, I knew two people who quit the lab at which I was working because they couldn't deal with the lab mates and PI

 

[deleted642188]

Unfortunately yes, yes and yes. The last one especially.



Aw, thank you! I'm indeed very happy about the acceptance. You are making a very wise decision. One that was strongly supported by several adcoms that I know. I took 8 years off. Right now, it feels like a blessing to go back to school full time for me. While it can feel like a continuous drudgery for many who went straight into med school and who never take a break from the academics. It feels great to live a little bit outside the towers before you go back in. Maybe retake the MCAT if you like. The second time studying for MCAT can bring in some sudden clarity.

Well, my adviser said that it wasn't worth to retake and relive the night mare.... I just gave up my January spot and I've no plans of doing the new one. Everyone said to worry about extracurriculars... Is my score not competitive for MD only?

 

[FFH]

Well, my adviser said that it wasn't worth to retake and relive the night mare.... I just gave up my January spot and I've no plans of doing the new one. Everyone said to worry about extracurriculars... Is my score not competitive for MD only?

You should probably post something in WAMC to call out the big guns to help you with making decisions.
But if you ask me, I'd say it depends on if you know where your limits lie. If you are someone who can kill a standardized exam and have done so before, then why not give MCAT another shot. If not, keep the score. I just want to borrow the advice of the admission director of Penn and encourage you to do the EC that you are passionate about and stick to one and truly shine in that area. It served me well and I got a lot of compliment during my interviews for being unique and persistent on one of my EC.

 

[deleted642188]

You should probably post something in WAMC to call out the big guns to help you with making decisions.
But if you ask me, I'd say it depends on if you know where your limits lie. If you are someone who can kill a standardized exam and have done so before, then why not give MCAT another shot. If not, keep the score. I just want to borrow the advice of the admission director of Penn and encourage you to do the EC that you are passionate about and stick to one and truly shine in that area. It served me well and I got a lot of compliment during my interviews for being unique and persistent on one of my EC.

Thank you to be frank I don't even know how I got a 30 because I averaged a 24 on my AAMC practices... so I think I'll stick with my 30 and not push my luck and also because most of the people tell me it's competitive enough, I'll just worry about trying to fish a 4.0 this year.

 

[FFH]

Thank you to be frank I don't even know how I got a 30 because I averaged a 24 on my AAMC practices... so I think I'll stick with my 30 and not push my luck.

I like you for being realistic and rational. Wish you the best!

 

[deleted642188]

I like you for being realistic and rational. Wish you the best!

Thank you for the interesting conversation; congratulations again and may it be smooth sailing for you....

 

[BMC11]

Good point Lamel. Applying to med school probably does not cost as many years of hard work as getting a PhD (with the exception of some, which can be done in 3-4 years). Although we do see that many of us started planning for a successful med school application very very early on in our lives.

You're forgetting the years people spend preparing to apply and get into graduate school, as well as many other things required to get in and to succeed. Comparing the process of getting a PhD (including our boards) to applying to medical school is not appropriate at all. To be honest, it is extremely insulting.

Having logged the years to get a PhD and also gone through what is now a successful application cycle, I can tell you this with certainty: applying to med school is a walk in the park compared to a PhD.

I find a lot of negative banter on these boards about PhDs, and how they're just back up plans for medical school. I find this equally as offensive as your chart, given the time, effort, and intellectual ingenuity a PhD requires. Plus, the application process and requirements are entirely different. I do not understand why pre-meds think so poorly of PhDs.

I would ask that you please be mindful of others, as well as the fact that you may have research experience, but you have never done a PhD and thus have no true concept of what it means. Experience collecting data and exposure to groups of graduate students does not mean you are an authority or have the right to make broad offensive assumptions...regardless of how funny you think other pre-meds may find them.

Best of luck in your application cycle. I hope you soften towards PhDs.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Oh I don't have a PhD. I just have been working in (all kinds of) research for many years. My publication might be sufficient to get a PhD though...maybe I should have just gone for one. lol. I thought you were asking what kind of medicine I want to practice.

Lol, I was.

 

[JingleChips]

While I know (or hope) you had no ill intentions by this post, I have to agree for the most part with BMC. In my opinion, comparing the process of COMPLETING a PhD to the process of applying to medical school is very insulting. I personally would even find it insulting if you compared earning a PhD vs an MD. As you and I both know, the processes are both difficult but in their own ways. but i hope the wine was good

 

[samsunimomo]

Apples to oranges.

 

[BMC11]

When people react emotionally towards something, I usually try to see if there is anything that I'm responsible of and if I need to rethink my approach and apologize appropriately. In this case, I have to say most of your strong resentments have no basis. My comparison has no broad assumption that one is harder than the other, neither did the comparison touch on the issue of whether one is better a career option than the other.

Your accusation of me bashing PhD as being easy and as being a worse career choice is unfounded. Not only I did not make such statement in the comparison chart. In my discussion later what I said supported what you are trying to express. I said PhD is necessary a career option for achieving success in both academic and industrial world. I continued to acknowledge that the PhD was a very difficult process and so much is involved in getting through and be successful. If anything, it was a daunting choice to make to go down that road.

A lot of people I know have poured their heart and soul into the long and tedious process of applying to med school. The emotional toll of applying to med school shouldn't be taken lightly as well. I urge you to be sensitive when you refer to this process as "a walk in the park". Because I know you don't mean ill, I am not going to get offended. Even though I, probably of all people, have every right to be considering how many obstacles I had to overcome to arrive where I am today. But someone might. It is rather insulting to assume that just because applying to med school was relatively easy for you, that it is easy for everyone.

It would also be nice for you to not assume that everyone else is green or naive of the topic simply because of a difference in a degree. I guarantee you that I have at least equivalent amount of years of research/independent project completed/grants obtained to what you had. I am not just a simple tech as you assumed everyone without a graduate degree must be.

You have every reason to feel the way you do and I am not going to invalid your feelings. However, you are transplanting the altitude/options/conclusions expressed else where onto my post. You even acknowledge it, it was what you've been seeing around on Premed forum, not here. Your emotionally charged accusation in response to a post that's devoid of value judgement, no offense intended, is bordering on bullying. I'd appreciate that you don't. I would advice you to learn to communicate calmly, to assume the best of people and to exercise the same consideration that you are asking of others.

That being said, I believe this is one of those touchy feely issue that even by mentioning it might cause stress on other people. In which case, I apologize and I'll refrain from doing so.

FriendlyFH, I have read this post carefully to be fair towards you, but I will respond as thus: You chart is still extremely insulting. It demeans the PhD process. Your comparisons are offensive and I would ask that you remove the chart. My emotionally charged response is directly related to what you posted and nothing else. I usually laugh off the pre-med anti-PhD posts, and yours is the first one I find truly inappropriate. You do indeed make broad assumptions by comparing parts of a degree you have not undertaken, to aspects of an application process. To equate them is to assume that they are similar. Furthermore, by comparing an entire five year degree process to an application process, you imply that the PhD is insignificant. Often, one does not have to directly come out and state something to really say it. The chart speaks for itself, and it is rude.

I might also add that we have all been on a difficult path. Every single one of us. We have all had obstacles, and you certainly do not know mine--nor do I know yours (and I would not assume to know yours or understand). The obstacles that we have faced are not the point of this post. My response to you had nothing to do with your individual issues, failures, or successes. Do not bring that into play. My response is to a post that I found demeaning and I have outlined why. I have also noted quite clearly that the application is a walk in the park compared to completing a PhD. I have compared it to nothing else, and my comparison as it stands is fair. You have assumed in your post (see above) that I am just claiming the application process itself is a walk in the park. This assumption is incorrect and given that I have noted this clearly, I would appreciate it if you did alter my statements. The application process is tedious, long, and very very tough--but it is not at all comparable to a PhD.

You said "Your accusation of me bashing PhD as being easy and as being a worse career choice is unfounded." You're right, it is unfounded--because I did not accuse you of this. I noted that there is a ton of anti-PhD sentiment on these boards and that others have said this. You chart contributes to the fire. I accused you of several things in my initial post but I did not accuse of claiming a PhD is a worse career choice. That is twice that you have taken my statements out of context and twisted them around to suit your response. I am very direct, and I said what I meant. For reference--my original statement: "I find a lot of negative banter on these boards about PhDs, and how they're just back up plans for medical school. I find this equally as offensive as your chart, given the time, effort, and intellectual ingenuity a PhD requires."

Once again, I wish you the best of luck in your cycle. This is a long process and admissions are well deserved by all that have dared to apply (for the most part). I would ask that you be mindful of others, and consider that if you haven't actually done something yourself, it may be entirely unfair to make the kinds of comparisons you have made. I found your chart offensive, even though other pre-meds may not. In fact, the chart is currently circling around my grad program, and none of us are laughing at the joke. So please, be wary of what you say and how you say it.

Otherwise, I think I have made my opinions known to you, and I will not be hashing this out any longer.

 

[BMC11]

Also, I have reported these posts. Some of your statements in response to my original post were extremely rude and very mean towards me, as a person. You had no reason to make this personal.
See below:
"Your emotionally charged accusation in response to a post that's devoid of value judgement, no offense intended, is bordering on bullying. I'd appreciate that you don't. I would advice you to learn to communicate calmly, to assume the best of people and to exercise the same consideration that you are asking of others."

I have communicated very calmly. Your personal attack on me because I disagreed strongly is unwarranted.

 

[Copernicium]

Hey guys what's going in he-

 

[BMC11]

Hey guys what's going in he-

Ok, this made me laugh haha.

 

[Make Or Break]

I don't understand what you are comparing. These are 2 completely different paths. And for your PhD portion, you are comparing someone already in a PhD program to someone not even in medical school yet.

 

[raiderette]

If you would still hope to try for PhD, there are DO/PhD programs. Michigan State COM, Rowan, and Ohio University have established programs.

 

[Sandmeezy]

 

[FFH]

FriendlyFH, I have read this post carefully to be fair towards you, but I will respond as thus: You chart is still extremely insulting. It demeans the PhD process. Your comparisons are offensive and I would ask that you remove the chart. My emotionally charged response is directly related to what you posted and nothing else. I usually laugh off the pre-med anti-PhD posts, and yours is the first one I find truly inappropriate. You do indeed make broad assumptions by comparing parts of a degree you have not undertaken, to aspects of an application process. To equate them is to assume that they are similar. Furthermore, by comparing an entire five year degree process to an application process, you imply that the PhD is insignificant. Often, one does not have to directly come out and state something to really say it. The chart speaks for itself, and it is rude.

I might also add that we have all been on a difficult path. Every single one of us. We have all had obstacles, and you certainly do not know mine--nor do I know yours (and I would not assume to know yours or understand). The obstacles that we have faced are not the point of this post. My response to you had nothing to do with your individual issues, failures, or successes. Do not bring that into play. My response is to a post that I found demeaning and I have outlined why. I have also noted quite clearly that the application is a walk in the park compared to completing a PhD. I have compared it to nothing else, and my comparison as it stands is fair. You have assumed in your post (see above) that I am just claiming the application process itself is a walk in the park. This assumption is incorrect and given that I have noted this clearly, I would appreciate it if you did alter my statements. The application process is tedious, long, and very very tough--but it is not at all comparable to a PhD.

You said "Your accusation of me bashing PhD as being easy and as being a worse career choice is unfounded." You're right, it is unfounded--because I did not accuse you of this. I noted that there is a ton of anti-PhD sentiment on these boards and that others have said this. You chart contributes to the fire. I accused you of several things in my initial post but I did not accuse of claiming a PhD is a worse career choice. That is twice that you have taken my statements out of context and twisted them around to suit your response. I am very direct, and I said what I meant. For reference--my original statement: "I find a lot of negative banter on these boards about PhDs, and how they're just back up plans for medical school. I find this equally as offensive as your chart, given the time, effort, and intellectual ingenuity a PhD requires."

Once again, I wish you the best of luck in your cycle. This is a long process and admissions are well deserved by all that have dared to apply (for the most part). I would ask that you be mindful of others, and consider that if you haven't actually done something yourself, it may be entirely unfair to make the kinds of comparisons you have made. I found your chart offensive, even though other pre-meds may not. In fact, the chart is currently circling around my grad program, and none of us are laughing at the joke. So please, be wary of what you say and how you say it.

Otherwise, I think I have made my opinions known to you, and I will not be hashing this out any longer.

We, a group of future physician, could have spent our energy and time to dwindle on things that truly make a difference. To be offended by people who waste water when there is such a big draught going on in California, to be offended by people who do not vaccine their children due to ignorance, to try to spread science, to talk people into doing something healthier for their lives. I have realized the topic might be interpreted beyond what I could understand based on my own personal experience, I apologized and I have learned something from your response to avoid bring up certain issue. I actually appreciate this as an learning experience for further developing my sensitivity.

And yet despite the fact that you have clearly seen that I have no ill intention, you clearly know that I do not in anyway think lightly of PhD, you continue to make this something greater than what it is and continue to invest your otherwise valuable energy to restate your position over and over again. I thought about removing the chart, but I decided to leave it there only because my mistake should be seen as what it is. Please do not employ passive aggression in your response. I wish you can learn to wait and see if people are meant to offend you, before you take something as an insult. Be a little gracious in your approach to your fellow and to others in times when good intentions might be badly executed.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Perhaps the wine contributed to the chart?

 

[FFH]

Perhaps the wine contributed to the chart?

Totally. I think the wine made me very focused on if I could compare the two processes procedurally and did not give a damn thought to if I should. No more good wine for me for a little while.

 

[unnumzaan]

Holy can of worms.

My conclusion here: No good can come of degree comparison threads on SDN.

 

[FFH]

Holy can of worms.

My conclusion here: No good can come of degree comparison threads on SDN.

Agreed. Lesson learned. This is how I felt since then

 

[Microglia]

Yea..they both suck to get. Trust me. But the end goal is what we focus on. There's no point to comparing the two, unless you're a member of one camp and feel insecure about the other.

Source: I'm me.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Totally. I think the wine made me very focused on if I could compare the two processes procedurally and did not give a damn thought to if I should. No more good wine for me for a little while.

In the future, don't drink and post