Donor Lab Accommodations for Disabilities

[eozzy2]

Hi everyone,

I am a first year medical student, and I was shocked to learn that my school does not provide a reduced distraction testing environment for students with learning disabilities when we take our donor / cadaver lab practicals. (I am referring to students who have already been registered with the disabilities office as requiring reduced distraction testing due to said learning disabilities.) I was wondering if this is the case with other schools as well, or if my school is the only one refusing to provide these accommodations.

Thanks!

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[Goro]

Mine does for written exams, but I've never heard of this being done for lab practicals. I can only imagine that the rationale is that in the clinic, you don't get accommodations.

 

[eozzy2]

Mine does for written exams, but I've never heard of this being done for lab practicals. I can only imagine that the rationale is that in the clinic, you don't get accommodations.

I suppose that could be... But I do receive extended time in the donor lab practicals, so I don't quite see how that could be their rationale - It's not as if I would have extra time in the clinic either. I fully understand that I can't have any accommodations in my Clinical Skills Assessments, Radiology Interpretations, Palpations, or Standardized Patient Experiences; nor would I expect any. But it isn't as if going from body to body and identifying structures could be considered a real-life application of our education, which makes me feel like the accommodations should stand, nevermind the fact that I find it to be the most distracting testing environment by a landslide in comparison to all of the others that I mentioned. (And I realize you were simply offering a possible explanation, I don't mean to sound as if I'm trying to argue with you; I'm just trying to reason through this.)

 

[meliora27]

FYI... I have never heard of anyone being approved by the NBOME for extended time on COMLEX. NBME is much better about granting accommodations for the USMLE.

 

[eozzy2]

FYI... I have never heard of anyone being approved by the NBOME for extended time on COMLEX. NBME is much better about granting accommodations for the USMLE.

Thanks that's good to know; guess I'd better keep the option of taking both exams on the table.

 

[cbrons]

FYI... I have never heard of anyone being approved by the NBOME for extended time on COMLEX. NBME is much better about granting accommodations for the USMLE.

I have not heard that nbme lets add kids get extra time in fact ive heard the exact opposite


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[costales]

I personally don't know of anyone who got extra time on either test. I'm sure it has happened e.g.
http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Homepage/Publications/TheNewPhysician/2007/tnp345.aspx
http://www.pennmedicine.org/providers/profile/lisa-pappas-taffer

 

[Goro]

I recommend that you work your way up the food chain on this one. Start with your Dep't Chairs, then the Dean, and then the Dean of Students (or whatever the position is called...meaning, the person who is in charge of seeing to it that the students get what they need to get). And if that doesn't work, the University President/Provost/Chancellor.

In the worst case scenario, invoke the ADA and drag in the lawyers. Usually, a letter from a lawyer is all it takes to my my administration fold like a damp spring roll.

I suppose that could be... But I do receive extended time in the donor lab practicals, so I don't quite see how that could be their rationale - It's not as if I would have extra time in the clinic either. I fully understand that I can't have any accommodations in my Clinical Skills Assessments, Radiology Interpretations, Palpations, or Standardized Patient Experiences; nor would I expect any. But it isn't as if going from body to body and identifying structures could be considered a real-life application of our education, which makes me feel like the accommodations should stand, nevermind the fact that I find it to be the most distracting testing environment by a landslide in comparison to all of the others that I mentioned. (And I realize you were simply offering a possible explanation, I don't mean to sound as if I'm trying to argue with you; I'm just trying to reason through this.)

 

[meliora27]

I personally don't know of anyone who got extra time on either test. I'm sure it has happened e.g.
http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Homepage/Publications/TheNewPhysician/2007/tnp345.aspx
http://www.pennmedicine.org/providers/profile/lisa-pappas-taffer

I have no clue on the actual numbers, but from people I personally know (n=2), they were both denied extended time on COMLEX 1 & 2, but granted extended time on USMLE 1 & 2. YMMV.

 

[Jlaw]

I don't agree with this at all, being a doctor means being the one who makes decisions in a distracted environment. If you can't summon all your strength to make it through a practical how are you ever going to stay focused through a surgery, code, or 24 hour shift?

I should add that at my school if your eyes were anywhere other than straight ahead on your station or looking at your answer sheet you would probably be accused of cheating, that effectively eliminates a lot of the distraction.

 

[IslandStyle808]

As long as the accommodations are reasonable I could understand. I remember being a TA for an introductory lab and we had a person who registered with the disabilities department at school. We just simply gave that person an extra 15 minutes (whatever his accommodations were) and we extended that time to the other students (so he wouldn't be single out, not sure if that was the right thing to do but I don't think it made a difference for the ones who were finished).

 

[Jlaw]

A testing environment, a learning environment, and a work environment (where you have mastered your skills) are different. You may not understand ADHD or dyslexia fully. Furthermore, it is highly likely you already interact with doctors and other medical professionals who have a disability they didn't disclose to you (probably a good thing given your view).

I've been in many codes, its pretty tough to get distracted. I am pretty sure you would agree.

I do understand them both, but I still feel that at this level you need to hold everyone to the same standards. If you give a student an extra 10 minutes on an anatomy practical are they also going to be given an extra 5 minutes to see and write a note on their standardized patients during clinical skills exams? If so how is that fair to the rest of the students..maybe they are a bit slower than the rest of the class but how do you know they aren't 1-2 minutes slower, thus giving them an 8-9 minute advantage. I've never been evaluated for a learning disability but I rarely finished early during tests and I am 100% certain I would have scored higher on school exams and boards if I had more time to work with.

Also how is this serving them if the vast majority are going to be unable to persuade the NBME or NBOME to extend them the same courtesy?

 

[Jlaw]

"What kinds of tests are covered?....Licensing exams for trade purposes (such as cosmetology) or professional purposes (such as bar exams or medical licensing exams, including clinical assessments)."

Above from: http://www.ada.gov/regs2014/testing_accommodations.html

Well an anatomy practical is not a medical licensing exam so you are saying it should not be covered? Not sure I'm following.

And as for the one legged doctor, if the loss of a limb impedes his ability to train or carry out his job then unfortunately he should find a different career because his colleagues are going to have to pick up the slack or his employer is going to have to hire someone else to work with him. I would be curious to see if this has ever happened, I don't think you could make it through 3rd and 4th year and residency if you had a severe physical disability. Heck I saw out of shape people during 3rd year who had a hard time keeping up on rounds some days.

I would love to play center field for the yankees but I can't hit or catch and I have crappy knees. I'm not about to petition the MLB to let me in on the condition that I take only <25mph pitches and just call anything I get within 10 feet of in the outfield an out. I'm exaggerating but at some point you need to draw a line otherwise you will end up with people who have no business practicing medicine making it through school. I feel bad for these people if medicine is what they really want to do, there were some folks in my class who came in with physical and learning struggles who ultimately were forced to drop out. This is not an easy or forgiving process and the train will keep rolling even when people fall off the back.

You made a comment earlier about learning vs. work environments, in medicine they are blurred. Part of the job of a physician is the continue adapting, learning, studying, and being tested throughout their career.

 

[happyday]

Well an anatomy practical is not a medical licensing exam so you are saying it should not be covered? Not sure I'm following.

And as for the one legged doctor, if the loss of a limb impedes his ability to train or carry out his job then unfortunately he should find a different career because his colleagues are going to have to pick up the slack or his employer is going to have to hire someone else to work with him. I would be curious to see if this has ever happened, I don't think you could make it through 3rd and 4th year and residency if you had a severe physical disability. Heck I saw out of shape people during 3rd year who had a hard time keeping up on rounds some days.

I would love to play center field for the yankees but I can't hit or catch and I have crappy knees. I'm not about to petition the MLB to let me in on the condition that I take only <25mph pitches and just call anything I get within 10 feet of in the outfield an out. I'm exaggerating but at some point you need to draw a line otherwise you will end up with people who have no business practicing medicine making it through school. I feel bad for these people if medicine is what they really want to do, there were some folks in my class who came in with physical and learning struggles who ultimately were forced to drop out. This is not an easy or forgiving process and the train will keep rolling even when people fall off the back.

You made a comment earlier about learning vs. work environments, in medicine they are blurred. Part of the job of a physician is the continue adapting, learning, studying, and being tested throughout their career.

This is a quote from another SDN member:
"Well, at the University of Michigan, the Chairman of Family Medicine (Dr. Zazove) is indeed deaf. And the Chairwoman of Neurosurgery at the same University (Dr. Muraszko) is a woman who has spinal bifida (needed a special wheelchair to prop her up when she use to do neurosurgeries). Both are heralded at U of M, and have been very upfront in discussing their disabilities." Posted by Great White Buffalo 1/2/2014, proof that people with disabilities can be physicians.

 

[ortnakas]

Hi everyone,

I am a first year medical student, and I was shocked to learn that my school does not provide a reduced distraction testing environment for students with learning disabilities when we take our donor / cadaver lab practicals. (I am referring to students who have already been registered with the disabilities office as requiring reduced distraction testing due to said learning disabilities.) I was wondering if this is the case with other schools as well, or if my school is the only one refusing to provide these accommodations.

Thanks!

Unfortunately, I'd be surprised if a school HAD the funding to have an extra lab for these kind of situations.

At least you have the extra time. I doubt a petition for a separate space will be successful (there's probably not a separate reduced distraction environment to store the cadaver for you) but perhaps you could try to take your exams right before/after your classmates to be the only person in the room.

 

[happyday]

Unfortunately, I'd be surprised if a school HAD the funding to have an extra lab for these kind of situations.

At least you have the extra time. I doubt a petition for a separate space will be successful (there's probably not a separate reduced distraction environment to store the cadaver for you) but perhaps you could try to take your exams right before/after your classmates to be the only person in the room.

That is a great suggestion...advocate for yourself and suggest you take the exam before/after your classmates. That seems like reasonable request.