Every time i see this said, i never see people recommend alternatives. It's no secret that you need money to live and medical jobs are some of the highest paying. But since you are automatically (apparently) destined to live a life of misery if you go into medicine for the money, what are the alternatives that are "so much easier" or involve "less debt and time commitment"
"Don't go into medicine for the money"....now what?
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finance, consulting, tech
really though, the first step is to figure out what you want out of a career. what kind of work do you like doing? what kind of schedule do you want? what are your skills? what kinds of things can you absolutely not imagine doing every day, no matter how much you make? there are a ****ton of jobs out there, and no one can tell you which one is going to suit you best. you're the one who's going to be doing it for 40 years, after all. do some exploration!
really though, the first step is to figure out what you want out of a career. what kind of work do you like doing? what kind of schedule do you want? what are your skills? what kinds of things can you absolutely not imagine doing every day, no matter how much you make? there are a ****ton of jobs out there, and no one can tell you which one is going to suit you best. you're the one who's going to be doing it for 40 years, after all. do some exploration!
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Software developer, investment banking, sales, financial adviser/manager, IT Analyst, small business entrepreneur/owner; the list goes on...
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Sardinia
When you're a medical school student, you develop almost a suite of basic work skills that would qualify you to be successfully in a management position. You basically have to create a schedule for yourself and budget time accordingly. Deal with problems personally when you don't meet the schedule. You have to accomplish a certain goal and obtain a certain score otherwise your planning means nothing (hitting core metrics). And also think of new methods in order to obtain better results or the ones you want.
In other words, having the discipline to finish a medical school program means that you have some of the core skills needed to run your own business. When many physicians state that they could have become anything, it's because medicine often demands physicians to adapt to the needs of the patient while considering numerous angles that any care they provide could have negative consequences. From another angle, it's the epitome of a highly customer driven field that is centered around the benefit of the customers.
The most direct impression I got from medical students is that these people would make a killing setting up their own business. Basically becoming self-entrepreneurs by having a "hit idea", getting angel investors to back it, and starting off a business as an e-commerce enterprise. The work ethic and passion required to run your own business is without a doubt nerve wracking. It consumes your life. However, I'd like to think that medicine is similar in the sense that students have such a strong passion for medicine that they allow themselves to be consumed on a daily basis by their training and work in order to become successful providers.
In other words, having the discipline to finish a medical school program means that you have some of the core skills needed to run your own business. When many physicians state that they could have become anything, it's because medicine often demands physicians to adapt to the needs of the patient while considering numerous angles that any care they provide could have negative consequences. From another angle, it's the epitome of a highly customer driven field that is centered around the benefit of the customers.
The most direct impression I got from medical students is that these people would make a killing setting up their own business. Basically becoming self-entrepreneurs by having a "hit idea", getting angel investors to back it, and starting off a business as an e-commerce enterprise. The work ethic and passion required to run your own business is without a doubt nerve wracking. It consumes your life. However, I'd like to think that medicine is similar in the sense that students have such a strong passion for medicine that they allow themselves to be consumed on a daily basis by their training and work in order to become successful providers.
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There are many careers that require fewer years or cheaper schooling such as MBA/finance or law. Or you can go into tech.
Or do something else clinical, such as PA, psychology (edited), etc. You spend less on school (both years and price) and end up in a job with more reasonable lifestyle demands and decent pay.
Personally I'm going to med school because I think I'd be miserable in most other careers. Many of my friends are in finance and law, and while their earning prospects are better they pretty consistently hate their jobs. So if you don't love medicine, do something else you don't love and make more money/work fewer hours
Or do something else clinical, such as PA, psychology (edited), etc. You spend less on school (both years and price) and end up in a job with more reasonable lifestyle demands and decent pay.
Personally I'm going to med school because I think I'd be miserable in most other careers. Many of my friends are in finance and law, and while their earning prospects are better they pretty consistently hate their jobs. So if you don't love medicine, do something else you don't love and make more money/work fewer hours
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Don't you have to go through med school for psychiatry? And is it really a much better work/life balance?
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Sardinia
Psychiatry requires medical school. @bedevilled ben is a resident and can give you some useful feedback regarding the work/life balance aspect of it.
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I'd say that the majority of the people smart enough to get into medical school are smart enough to get into a T14 law school based on the soft skills that cross over. With Finance you typically need some kind of Business or Finance degree from a Top 10 school to be competitive with firms post college. Should you not have the pedigree or major, theoretically, you could work with a biology degree and get a top tier MBA after a couple years (Wharton, Harvard). All less time consuming than medicine with similar compensation. Also keep in mind the SDN mentality of going into medicine for any other reason than altruism. I think the reasoning of prestige, income, and a little bit of scientific curiosity is a lot more common than one may think, and not nearly as "miserable" should you choose the right specialty that allows ample time to live life outside of your job with that great compensation. After all, it is just a job. Again, I think the kind of people on these forums are inclined to work towards that top specialty of something like surgery, which may have horribly long hours, and if you don't enjoy your work and you are focused solely on time outside the OR, it could be painful.
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There are so many people in all of these fields and a lot less job security though. For every success story there are 10 people working dead-end jobs or running failing businesses
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Sardinia
@ChymeofPassion Averaging 11.92 hour workdays if we assume that doctors are working five days of their 59.6 hours a week.
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Crap...meant psychology.
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So so so many: finance, engineering (all kinds), computer science, NP (incl. anaesthesia license), etc... Literally too many to count.
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Teaching. Where else can you get a lifetime job guaranteed after only two years on the job?
EDIT: or learn how to use google.
http://www.businessinsider.com/top-paying-jobs-in-america-2015-9
EDIT: or learn how to use google.
http://www.businessinsider.com/top-paying-jobs-in-america-2015-9
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deleted778326
+1. I scored a 171 on the LSAT with two months of decent studying. On the contrary, I spend 6 months on the MCAT and hit a 31 and never felt anywhere near as prepared as I did when I sat for the LSAT. Law school have relaxed their admission standards a significant amount now a days due to the unstable legal market. 171 was competitive for T14 about 8 years ago but I would imagine now it would be a high chance of admission at HYS.
True, but do you think those 10 people could have been admitted to med, done well on the steps, matched into a good residency and survived residency?
Yep. Could get you into a great school provided you have the grades to get into med. And if you're a real shark, the sky is the limit with $$.
One of the best things about working in a big law firm, finance or consulting: doing it for the money is an advantage.
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Every job has some suck - generally lots of it. And virtually every job that pays top dollar involves a lot of education, long hours and special skills and abilities. The MIX of education, hours and talents certainly varies from job to job as does the magnitude of reward for the investment.
So find where your talents lie. Define the least-sucky and most-sucky aspects of the various career options (I'd rather get pooped/puked on than make BS sales pitches or steal people's money) but that varies hugely by the person. Also define what's most rewarding to you -- money, respect, helping people, making the world a better place, SJW, time off, autonomy, interesting work, doing better financially than the family next door?
Then throw your darts and do the best you can --
Would someone gunning for money and prestige be disappointed in medicine? Depends on how much they hate poop & pus and how much money and prestige they garner. Might not be a bad deal. Or could be very bad...
The lucrative careers named above can be very lucrative if you're successful at them. But for the only-moderately-successful, there's a higher base income in medicine (though perhaps not once you back out your investment).
So find where your talents lie. Define the least-sucky and most-sucky aspects of the various career options (I'd rather get pooped/puked on than make BS sales pitches or steal people's money) but that varies hugely by the person. Also define what's most rewarding to you -- money, respect, helping people, making the world a better place, SJW, time off, autonomy, interesting work, doing better financially than the family next door?
Then throw your darts and do the best you can --
Would someone gunning for money and prestige be disappointed in medicine? Depends on how much they hate poop & pus and how much money and prestige they garner. Might not be a bad deal. Or could be very bad...
The lucrative careers named above can be very lucrative if you're successful at them. But for the only-moderately-successful, there's a higher base income in medicine (though perhaps not once you back out your investment).
Can i ask why you switched from law?
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deleted778326
I never went to law school. I took the LSAT in 2oo8. The market was absolutely ugly at that point.
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deleted778326
Never.
To give you an example, right after the market crashed people were finding themselves 275k coming out of Fordham Law after three years with a nasty surprise. Now, I am not sure of Fordham's reputation still, but before the 2oo8 era if you found yourself decently in the top half of the class, you were likely to land something in "big law" that would give you the opportunity to live decently and pay down the debt. Fordham was a great law school. After that occurred. heh Things changed dramatically. This was not an isolated incident. All of a sudden, you need to be top 1o% on law review to have a shot at any of the white shoe firms. I can not speak to how things work now but I knew way too many people who were 3ook in debt taking document review gigs at 3o/hr part time. From a purely economic perspective, it just was not something I wanted to do and I never really wanted to be a lawyer anyways. I taught history for several years before going back and doing my postbacc.
It's way too early on to tell you how I feel but I have to be honest with you - the 2os were the worst period of my life. Finally, at 3o, I feel like things are going to be okay. Take it for what it's worth but I feel like I made the right decision. Everyone has their own path.
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I always love people who mention investment banking as if it's not 10000x more competitive to secure a position as an IB than it is to get into medical school.
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Almost as much of a buzz word as "just join a hedge fund"
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Shhhhh, don't let the secret out.
Quick, somebody distract the med students. Uh, uh... free bagels in the conference room!
Seriously, though. Psych is the bee's knees for work/life balance. It's pretty different than the rest of medicine though, so you definitely have to have the right personality for it.
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How do you think the average person considering medicine compares to these people with regard to work ethic, intelligence, and drive?
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Oddly, at the hospital I work at we had a resident who left investment banking to become a physician. I asked him about the field and he said "the money was great, but the work left me feeling empty."
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Cliche as it is, all of my IB friends now who have survived another day to be promoted and are making a significant salary + bonus are the most miserable people you will meet. One of my friends mentioned once that often he can't enjoy himself on Saturday nights because the thought of how much he hates Monday morning lingers throughout.
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Anyone who goes onto a premed board looking for alternatives to medicine is not really using their head. You are asking a group of people for whom medicine is the only appealing option what the other options are. That's called stacking the deck and guarantees you won't get a good answer. It's like going to the Vatican for advice on other religions.
On here people are geared toward medicine and are only familiar with 2-3 other professional options, usually because they "know a guy". In real life there are literally thousands of career paths. Thousands. So your first step is to not ask anyone on a premed board about non medical options. Find a deck that has not already been stacked. I don't know what site that is but it won't be here. People on here simply haven't had the exposure to other options so the analysis will be superficial at best.
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That was author/surgeon Atul Gawande's point in an article he wrote for the New Yorker some years ago. Someone who invests the same drive and effort into other career paths as some of us do in medicine will go far. A number of us who have had success in multiple careers can attest to this.
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It's true that nobody takes out debt to go to school and works a 40-60+ hour job 100% out of the grand kindness of their heart to make the world a better place, but there are easier and less time consuming jobs for smart people that care about making an above decent income; frankly I agree with those who are saying finance. In fact, you can be of average intelligence and be excellent in finance; and with the right mathematics skills and IQ you could be killer
medicine involves critical thinking and being caring to people on a day to day basis; with a lousy mood, it may prove very difficult to put on a good front every single day.
If you consider yourself good at logic, law may be a lucrative and interesting career to you (although prepare to read)
medicine involves critical thinking and being caring to people on a day to day basis; with a lousy mood, it may prove very difficult to put on a good front every single day.
If you consider yourself good at logic, law may be a lucrative and interesting career to you (although prepare to read)
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I was always under the impression that teaching was an option after completing medical school.
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[/QUOTE] choose the right specialty that allows ample time to live life outside of your job with that great compensation.[/QUOTE] and what specialties are those?
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Sardinia
@AceTomAce Fordham Law has a reputation of having graduates within public defender/district attorney positions in the Big Apple. Although a colleague in litigation says that reputation is absolute b.s. Also, good for you wrt to seeing the writing on the wall.
#Law School Scam
#Law School Scam
I know that @Law2Doc said that everyone on here has only considered med school. However, I'm someone that did (extensive?) research for both IB and medicine and at one point put effort in finding jobs in both fields. I ultimately chose I wanted to stick to med school.
In my experience.. yes, on paper there are jobs "better" than medicine. I only say that though because medical school is like 250k and requires a lot of work whereas some of the other options you can get started right after college (tbh this is a tricky point and not 100% correct I'll probably elaborate in another post if people want it). Residency is not part of the equation because entry level positions in higher end jobs tend to suck (ie analysts at an IB firm).
BUT the biggest thing is that not everyone has the right skill set to do something else. For example, success in medicine is largely test/intelligence based (and some social skills are required for patient interaction, etc.. but it's really minimal in my opinion) whereas something like IB is heavily social skill based (with some intelligence required obviously) because you need to network to get a job and network if you want to be a successful exec once you're promoted (winning/keeping clients is basically all you do as a managing director in a firm). If you want to apply out into a hedge fund or PE firm you need to (guess what?) network. Not every pre med or just people in general have those social skills.
This is probably an unpopular opinion but I personally think it's okay to be in medicine for the money. However if that's the only reason you might have a hard time keeping yourself motivated through the process, and I think that is what people are warning you against. I think first you need to think about stuff you like (ie science, finance, law etc). Then consider how much money/prestige/etc each has AND probably most importantly if you have the skills to be successful in that field
In my experience.. yes, on paper there are jobs "better" than medicine. I only say that though because medical school is like 250k and requires a lot of work whereas some of the other options you can get started right after college (tbh this is a tricky point and not 100% correct I'll probably elaborate in another post if people want it). Residency is not part of the equation because entry level positions in higher end jobs tend to suck (ie analysts at an IB firm).
BUT the biggest thing is that not everyone has the right skill set to do something else. For example, success in medicine is largely test/intelligence based (and some social skills are required for patient interaction, etc.. but it's really minimal in my opinion) whereas something like IB is heavily social skill based (with some intelligence required obviously) because you need to network to get a job and network if you want to be a successful exec once you're promoted (winning/keeping clients is basically all you do as a managing director in a firm). If you want to apply out into a hedge fund or PE firm you need to (guess what?) network. Not every pre med or just people in general have those social skills.
This is probably an unpopular opinion but I personally think it's okay to be in medicine for the money. However if that's the only reason you might have a hard time keeping yourself motivated through the process, and I think that is what people are warning you against. I think first you need to think about stuff you like (ie science, finance, law etc). Then consider how much money/prestige/etc each has AND probably most importantly if you have the skills to be successful in that field
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One reason nobody has mentioned that I find to be true among most pre-health students in general is the relative stability. Not too much risk of not finding a job if you're a physician, dentist, podiatrist, etc. Telling someone they can complete 4 years of school + 4 years of residency and be guaranteed at least X salary with Y hours vs telling someone to go start up a small company from scratch...yeah, big difference there.
Also lol @ the posters who always just throw out IB as an alternative as if it isn't more difficult to land a good position at a firm than it is to get into every pre-health field combined. Medicine is much more structured in that you just follow the path and you'll get in eventually. Maybe not the first try but if you want it, you'll get it. Can't say the same about a lucrative IB job unless you're a clueless undergrad who doesn't even know what the job entails.
How many hit ideas do you think people come up with every day? So some cookie-cutter pre-med student could just whip one of those out and find some angel investor? Then what? How many of them are ever successful? Sounds like you watch too much Shark Tank lol. I get that the skill sets sound similar at face value but I'd argue they really don't translate well at all.
Also lol @ the posters who always just throw out IB as an alternative as if it isn't more difficult to land a good position at a firm than it is to get into every pre-health field combined. Medicine is much more structured in that you just follow the path and you'll get in eventually. Maybe not the first try but if you want it, you'll get it. Can't say the same about a lucrative IB job unless you're a clueless undergrad who doesn't even know what the job entails.
How many hit ideas do you think people come up with every day? So some cookie-cutter pre-med student could just whip one of those out and find some angel investor? Then what? How many of them are ever successful? Sounds like you watch too much Shark Tank lol. I get that the skill sets sound similar at face value but I'd argue they really don't translate well at all.
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I've worked a few years in biglaw - people on average work 60-80 hour weeks forever. Some of my friends and I have pulled 360 hour months (billing 300 hours). Some people go in house after biglaw and some inhouse jobs have similar hours. Consultants, especially at top tier consulting firms, work like 70 hour weeks and constantly travel. I don't know why you kids think these would be improvements to medicine.
If you're looking for QOL, don't go into any of the above, except maybe low tier finance.
Investment banking has worse hours than medicine/law....they work 80-100 hour weeks on average and are expected to pull multiple all nighters in a row.
I really don't understand the advice ITT...it seems a lot of you guys don't have any idea how hard people in other careers work. In NYC, even people working in the creative industries like fashion or TV production pull regular 60-70 hour weeks.
What matters is that you pick something you enjoy doing - none of these jobs pays "f*ck you" money and you're going to have to work for a significant portion of your life anyway.
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These jobs definitely pay you F-you money in that if you told any random person that they don't make f-you money they would reply with: F-you
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This notion of "guaranteed employment" is overstated on the premed boards. I know people who've been layed off in medicine. I've known people whose practices went bankrupt. I've known people who couldn't find a passable job in a particular city or even an entire state and had to massively relocate. I've known people now in other graduate schools because medicine didn't pan out. While the job market is certainly better in many medical fields there really are no guarantees.
And you don't really want to pick a career this way anyhow. Day to day it's going to be unimportant. Your life won't be better at a job you don't love by knowing you won't be fired. And there are plenty of other jobs where if you work as hard as a doctor, the talk will be about raises and promotions, not the worry of job security.
Who said it would be an improvement to the QoL of medicine? I was saying how going into BigLaw for the money isn't a terrible idea.
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Sardinia
You're talking about pre-meds. I'm talking about medical students. When you spent upwards of eight hours purely studying: no SDN, no gmail, and no facebook then you are actively pushing your mind to digest material even if it's telling you to stop because of information overload.
The amount of dedication that goes into taxing the mind to memorize one more piece of information on a day to day basis is analogous to hitting the ground running if an idea fails or doesn't go through. Medical students are some of the best self-initiators and planners when it comes to handling information and multi-tasking several subjects that contain a lot of information. I have a huge amount of respect for how far they go on a daily basis and it's not really comparative to any other experience you can have as a pre-med.
A start-up isn't dependent so much on the "hit idea" as it is to come up with a solid idea and have the discipline to see it through. If I were to revise my original comment, I should have stated that the amount of passion, dedication, and the type of enjoyment that comes from being a medical student is analogous to someone initiating their own business whether it is based around a unique idea or not. The investment you make into medicine is to accrue capital into yourself as a sellable product and is arguably as costly as it would be to accrue the capital for a 12-month lease on a store with inventory and advertisement marketing.
There will always be holes in a comparison between an investment into human capital v. another centered around an investment into business capital.
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afaik, the best way to get a ton of money without crazy work hours is inheriting it or marrying rich
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Faculty at colleges have to wait 7 years for tenure! At the public school level, it's two years...that's what I was referring to.
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Absolutely agree with your statement. Are you an investor or involved in startups?
I was a super passionate medical student until I stepped back and realize the role of a physician in the grand scheme of thing, highly skilled worker who lack innovation and are under the control of hospital, legislature, and insurance all involved in profit making while pushing a hypocritical patient first culture. My passion for risk taking, problem solving, and creating value and progress drove me to dropout and towards tech entrepreneurship.
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Yeah there's definitely less stigma to be money oriented in law, and it dovetails much better with what you are trying to accomplish for your clients, which is inevitably monetized. But I still think to make a career of it you still ought to actually LIKE it or find something else.
You spend too big a percent of your life at work to just shrug and suffer through it. You are within the small lucky percentage of people with choices in life. Don't voluntarily choose to serve a life sentence. You aren't stuck stocking shelves or pumping gas because that's all you'll ever amount to, suffering 9-5 and just living for the weekend. Job security is not worth it. You are presumably on here because you have choices in life and thus should pick something you like. Don't squander your opportunities, dying slowly at a job you hate just because they pay you pretty good.
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Oddly? I find absolutely nothing about this odd --
Soul-sucking...
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The long struggle of medical training is real. If the ride doesn't suit you at all, it may feel like hell eternal.
Sad thing is that for some specialties, practice is a continuation of residency but with higher pay and slightly less hours.
People who focus on money tend to think about immediate gratification or ROI. In both areas, medicine disappoints or is uncertain. The ROI is tough to calculate with all the future uncertainty, and the following stuff gets thrown around a lot: single payer, reimbursement cuts, extending residence, fellowship now required, senior docs not retiring, rising tuition / debt, midlevel creep, etc.
Sad thing is that for some specialties, practice is a continuation of residency but with higher pay and slightly less hours.
People who focus on money tend to think about immediate gratification or ROI. In both areas, medicine disappoints or is uncertain. The ROI is tough to calculate with all the future uncertainty, and the following stuff gets thrown around a lot: single payer, reimbursement cuts, extending residence, fellowship now required, senior docs not retiring, rising tuition / debt, midlevel creep, etc.
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No, sorry. I handle a lot of boiler plate documentation and basic procedure filing in the Big Apple. There are many mom and pop restaurants and deli's that we have contracted to the firm that I work for in terms of review of leases and other basic legal aspects as an intermediary for the firm if the lawyers need me to serve in that capacity for the day.
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Fair enough, but I doubt you'd argue that medicine provides more stability than trying to form your own company form scratch. So you might have to relocate if you lose your job. Sucks, but it's still more of a sure thing. I also didn't say picking a career for that reason is a good idea, but do you really think it doesn't happen? Come on, some kids do medicine because they're forced by their parents. I know 3 people off-hand thaat are doing it because "I like science and idk what else I'd do." Sounds crazy right? It is, but it happens.My n=3 but your n is also some number I can probably count on two hands. The unemployment rate among physicians is crazy low. You might not be in your favorite location or have the best hours/pay, but you can get a job.
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