"Don't go into medicine for the money"....now what?

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You're talking about pre-meds. I'm talking about medical students. When you spent upwards of eight hours purely studying: no SDN, no gmail, and no facebook then you are actively pushing your mind to digest material even if it's telling you to stop because of information overload.

The amount of dedication that goes into taxing the mind to memorize one more piece of information on a day to day basis is analogous to hitting the ground running if an idea fails or doesn't go through. Medical students are some of the best self-initiators and planners when it comes to handling information and multi-tasking several subjects that contain a lot of information. I have a huge amount of respect for how far they go on a daily basis and it's not really comparative to any other experience you can have as a pre-med.

A start-up isn't dependent so much on the "hit idea" as it is to come up with a solid idea and have the discipline to see it through. If I were to revise my original comment, I should have stated that the amount of passion, dedication, and the type of enjoyment that comes from being a medical student is analogous to someone initiating their own business whether it is based around a unique idea or not. The investment you make into medicine is to accrue capital into yourself as a sellable product and is arguably as costly as it would be to accrue the capital for a 12-month lease on a store with inventory and advertisement marketing.

There will always be holes in a comparison between an investment into human capital v. another centered around an investment into business capital.
I meant cookie-cutter premeds who eventually become med students. Should've clarified. I just really don't think the personalities of most health science students in general are similar enough to those that serial entrepreneurs have. Medicine is an investment for sure, but there's a formula for it. Premed courses + shadowing + volunteering + MCAT + research = acceptance. Study your ass off for 4+ years and now you're a physician. You can at least see how that's more of a guarantee than accruing capital for a 12-month lease on a store with inventory that may or not be popular, profitable, feasible, or advertising that can be hit or miss, or timing depending on the current demands of consumers, or some other force that's just out of your control. I guess that's the key difference I see. For medicine you can be totally in control over your human capital but it doesn't work that way for a business.

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Fair enough, but I doubt you'd argue that medicine provides more stability than trying to form your own company form scratch. So you might have to relocate if you lose your job. Sucks, but it's still more of a sure thing. I also didn't say picking a career for that reason is a good idea, but do you really think it doesn't happen? Come on, some kids do medicine because they're forced by their parents. I know 3 people off-hand thaat are doing it because "I like science and idk what else I'd do." Sounds crazy right? It is, but it happens.My n=3 but your n is also some number I can probably count on two hands. The unemployment rate among physicians is crazy low. You might not be in your favorite location or have the best hours/pay, but you can get a job.
I agree there are people out there who pick careers for bad reasons. But on an advising board the good advice is to discourage that not reinforce it. Stability/security is a foolish reason to pick a career. If you are good at your job you will have job security in most fields, and if you aren't you'll find things are less "guaranteed" in the real world than they are on SDN.
 
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... Medicine is an investment for sure, but there's a formula for it. Premed courses + shadowing + volunteering + MCAT + research = acceptance. Study your ass off for 4+ years and now you're a physician...For medicine you can be totally in control over your human capital...
Except that it doesn't quite work this way. You are picturing a single four year investment of your human capital but it's more like a leaky boat -- you'll be investing in human capital for far more than four years. So in actuality, you'll study your a$$ off four years so you can gain entry to a residency, where you work even harder for 3-7 years so you can become a boarded physician so you can get a job where you also have to shine or eventually they'll find someone else. You never get to say "I've arrived" and relax -- there's always more running ahead if you want any semblance of security. A lot of us are working harder as attendings than we did in med school or residency because, frankly, while there are plenty of crappy jobs out there we could probably find to pay the bills, particularly if geography was no object, the good jobs require you to constantly demonstrate that you are indispensable. Lots of people would love my job but they won't get a shot at it unless I falter. So It's a race and if you are smart you'll keep running. And that, is pretty much the opposite of a guaranty in my book. And not that different than my life in BigLaw, actually.

Yeah you'll find "a" job but nobody goes through 4 years of med school and 3-7 years of residency to settle into a crappy job with an awful call schedule and below market salary in some undesirable geographic location, where you have no real future. So you'll take something more palatable and need to eternally keep running, making yourself indispensable, to keep it. And in that setting nothing is really "guaranteed." So I'd give this notion of guaranty and job security a rest. It's better than some fields and the floor is a lot higher, but not different enough to base your career decisions.
 
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The problem is i feel like i do like medicine and can't ever seem to think of myself doing anything else. However, the first time i'll ever get to see a patient (if i make it to med school) is in third year when i'm about $100k in debt and there's pretty much no turning back. The last thing i want is to get there and realize its not for me.
 
Except that it doesn't quite work this way. You are picturing a single four year investment of your human capital but it's more like a leaky boat -- you'll be investing in human capital for far more than four years. So in actuality, you'll study your a$$ off four years so you can gain entry to a residency, where you work even harder for 3-7 years so you can become a boarded physician so you can get a job where you also have to shine or eventually they'll find someone else. You never get to say "I've arrived" and relax -- there's always more running ahead if you want any semblance of security. A lot of us are working harder as attendings than we did in med school or residency because, frankly, while there are plenty of crappy jobs out there we could probably find to pay the bills, particularly if geography was no object, the good jobs require you to constantly demonstrate that you are indispensable. Lots of people would love my job but they won't get a shot at it unless I falter. So It's a race and if you are smart you'll keep running. And that, is pretty much the opposite of a guaranty in my book. And not that different than my life in BigLaw, actually.

Yeah you'll find "a" job but nobody goes through 4 years of med school and 3-7 years of residency to settle into a crappy job with an awful call schedule and below market salary in some undesirable geographic location, where you have no real future. So you'll take something more palatable and need to eternally keep running, making yourself indispensable, to keep it. And in that setting nothing is really "guaranteed." So I'd give this notion of guaranty and job security a rest. It's better than some fields and the floor is a lot higher, but not different enough to base your career decisions.
It's sounding a bit depressing the way you're describing this.. but i'm going to assume that you're just looking at things from a certain perspective. As a pre-med i get the notion of, "things will just keep getting harder", but what pushes me forward is that things also get better. I'm currently working harder (academically) than I ever have, but I also feel much more accomplished and confident of myself. I hope you are enjoying medicine because lately i've been hearing about too many doctors wishing they chose a different career path.
 
It's true. Medicine pays poorly for the time investment. Wife is a nurse, 4 years of generally light school and started at 60k now at 100k for past 5 years working a 0.75 shift (Ave 30hrs/wk) with great benefits. This is her 10th year. Me... 50k/yr as a pgy3... applying to fellowship so I have another 4-5 years... It's going to take a long time to bridge the earning gap.

Go into this career only if you love it.

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It's sounding a bit depressing the way you're describing this.. but i'm going to assume that you're just looking at things from a certain perspective. As a pre-med i get the notion of, "things will just keep getting harder", but what pushes me forward is that things also get better. I'm currently working harder (academically) than I ever have, but I also feel much more accomplished and confident of myself. I hope you are enjoying medicine because lately i've been hearing about too many doctors wishing they chose a different career path.

Exactly!!
 
It's true. Medicine pays poorly for the time investment. Wife is a nurse, 4 years of generally light school and started at 60k now at 100k for past 5 years working a 0.75 shift (Ave 30hrs/wk) with great benefits. This is her 10th year. Me... 50k/yr as a pgy3... applying to fellowship so I have another 4-5 years... It's going to take a long time to bridge the earning gap.

Go into this career only if you love it.

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Damn, 30 hours a week for 100k? Maybe I should do nursing...does she enjoy it or at least find it okay? Do you live in flyover or a high COL area? And what type of nursing?
 
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It's sounding a bit depressing the way you're describing this.. but i'm going to assume that you're just looking at things from a certain perspective. As a pre-med i get the notion of, "things will just keep getting harder", but what pushes me forward is that things also get better. I'm currently working harder (academically) than I ever have, but I also feel much more accomplished and confident of myself. I hope you are enjoying medicine because lately i've been hearing about too many doctors wishing they chose a different career path.

I found school to be very different from working. I'm not a doctor (I'm a lawyer). I loved undergrad and law school, but I don't like practicing law all that much. Maybe these doctors feel the same way.

That said, you will likely find that most structured jobs become "boring" after awhile. Also, when you work, there aren't any obvious "goals" anymore. In school, the goals were clear and your path forward is very simple - get good grades and feel a sense of accomplishment, plus you get to learn new subjects every semester.

When you start working, everything sort of becomes a blur - there aren't the same type of "goals" that make you feel good anymore. And you will likely end up doing similar projects over and over again, or alternatively, find it frustrating to be "challenged" by new projects on a daily basis and just want something mindless to do/more free time for your hobbies. In my opinion, making a low(ish) six figure salary doesn't compensate for the time that you have to spend working in your full time job.

This is why I think you should find a job that you actually enjoy doing everyday, or at least tolerate the most - time is much more valuable than money, IMO. This becomes more apparent the older (and more jaded) you become.
 
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The problem is i feel like i do like medicine and can't ever seem to think of myself doing anything else. However, the first time i'll ever get to see a patient (if i make it to med school) is in third year when i'm about $100k in debt and there's pretty much no turning back. The last thing i want is to get there and realize its not for me.

Don't do medical school unless you're totally sure.

You're the type of person who should consider mid-level like PA.
 
It's better than some fields and the floor is a lot higher, but not different enough to base your career decisions.
I agree there are people out there who pick careers for bad reasons. But on an advising board the good advice is to discourage that not reinforce it. Stability/security is a foolish reason to pick a career. If you are good at your job you will have job security in most fields, and if you aren't you'll find things are less "guaranteed" in the real world than they are on SDN.
I never advocated it. Don't think we really disagree that much anyway.
 
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Damn, 30 hours a week for 100k? Maybe I should do nursing...does she enjoy it or at least find it okay? Do you live in flyover or a high COL area? And what type of nursing?
Night shift pcu charge nurse. Live in Oregon.

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Tech. No joke. Friends who've gotten CS degrees or something similar had their debt paid off in 2 years or less and are now driving a Lexus to work from their 6 bedroom/5.5 bath house. You gotta get an internship to be competitive right out of college, but if you can keep the GPA up like a successful premed, those won't be hard to find.

If you want to stay in healthcare, become an NP or PA and go into a specialty/private practice, such as Derm, Cardio, or Plastics. They won't make as much as the physician in this case, but if you look at how many hours they work compared to the physician, it's pretty cash money. You work 9-5 in most cases and get every other weekend or so off. If in private practice, then you can pick up extra shifts for overtime and get paid way more too...
 
Tech. No joke. Friends who've gotten CS degrees or something similar had their debt paid off in 2 years or less and are now driving a Lexus to work from their 6 bedroom/5.5 bath house. You gotta get an internship to be competitive right out of college, but if you can keep the GPA up like a successful premed, those won't be hard to find.

If you want to stay in healthcare, become an NP or PA and go into a specialty/private practice, such as Derm, Cardio, or Plastics. They won't make as much as the physician in this case, but if you look at how many hours they work compared to the physician, it's pretty cash money. You work 9-5 in most cases and get every other weekend or so off. If in private practice, then you can pick up extra shifts for overtime and get paid way more too...

At the top like 10 or so engineering/CS schools, you don't even need a great GPA. Just scrape by with a 2.9 and get a low six figure starting salary in California at age 22. Granted, the classes are harder, but still...I made a terrible life choice.

I also have programmer friends who started at a big company, then do startups and then move in and out of the corporate world whenever they feel like it...being a programmer gives you a lot more flexibility and mobility. You can also work from home more often.
 
Awesome - thanks. Oregon is a great place to live, too. Is it 2 years of schooling post-bachelors required?
She loves her job. It's not being a doctor and in some ways that's great. It's two years prenursing then transfer to a 4yr program for a bachelor. Done by 22, live well and travel in your 20's. Medicine... Done by 29, 32 or 33 with a fellowship if you don't take any breaks. I did so... 37 for me. Then pay off the debt. Life starts at 40ish. So you make more in the long run but it's going to cost you the best decades of your life guaranteed. We all make choices... Once you choose medicine you are a slave to the debt, there is no way out. Put your head down and push on.

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It's sounding a bit depressing the way you're describing this.. but i'm going to assume that you're just looking at things from a certain perspective. As a pre-med i get the notion of, "things will just keep getting harder", but what pushes me forward is that things also get better. I'm currently working harder (academically) than I ever have, but I also feel much more accomplished and confident of myself. I hope you are enjoying medicine because lately i've been hearing about too many doctors wishing they chose a different career path.
In having a blast in medicine. It's a great job for the right person. It is not for everyone though. If you think you'll just muscle through four years of med school and then kick your feet up you don't have the right perspective.

I'm just trying to temper this often repeated premed notion that you come out of med school never having to worry about job security and never needing to look over your shoulder again. doesnt work that way. Like any competitive career you need to keep running or someone faster will step on your head trying to pass you by.
 
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Become a veterinarian if you still want to be in medicine but don't want to be a physician. Almost 100% cash business, so no hassling with insurance companies. People generally will ante up to avoid their pet's suffering. My vet bought a castle in France as a summer home although this is a n=1 instance.

As for those people who are recommending tech startup and claiming that their friends are making 6-figure salaries, there is truth in that; however, those people are gonna get F*'d when the market becomes supersaturated as it did in the early 2000's for computer programmers who are now fixing computers for a low, low price or had to switch careers for job stability. Also as with any job in tech, you will have to constantly keep up with the ever-changing industry.

Hedge funds, IB, and those finance careers are all about prestige and connections. No one is going to hire a state university grad into their million dollar firms.
 
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Go research what PAs actually do, because your comment radiates a profound ignorance of this subject.
Seems like they do a lot of what physicians do in a similar role. I just don't see the point in doing all that to be a PA when you could do a bit more to be a doctor.
 
Seems like they do a lot of what physicians do in a similar role. I just don't see the point in doing all that to be a PA when you could do a bit more to be a doctor.
Pretty sure PA school shaves about half a decade off training time at least, which is not insignificant.
 
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Seems like they do a lot of what physicians do in a similar role. I just don't see the point in doing all that to be a PA when you could do a bit more to be a doctor.
Usually when you're hired as a PA, you're being used specifically in the capacity that a PA would be hired and not a doctor. In other words, areas that widely hire or are looking for specific PAs have a very specific intention of what your scope of practice is going to be in a majority of cases.
 
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