Don't hate me for posting a thousandth MSW vs PHD thread

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CKAW

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I know, I know, I searched first. Maybe some of you can help me with further clarification.

So the biggest difference between a master's and a doctorate are assessment, supervision, and some extra money. What exactly does supervision mean? If LCSWs can go into private practice, am I correct in assuming they can provide therapy independently and autonomously?

If only licensed psychologists can supervise, you could say, "Without the supervision of a licensed psychologist, therapists cannot do X."


So what's X?

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"So the biggest difference between a master's and a doctorate are assessment, supervision, and some extra money. "

I can't answer this as well as the experienced PhD's on this board, but I know enough to give a short answer. No.

"What exactly does supervision mean?"

In the context of a recent MSW grad, supervision means they are working on a limited license, cannot bill insurance for their services or practice without a fully licensed, billable practitioner there to review their work, provide feedback, and take responsibility for you to some extent (in a nutshell). The time this takes before being able to test for full licensing varies by state, but it's generally 2-3 years for the LCSW.

"If LCSWs can go into private practice, am I correct in assuming they can provide therapy independently and autonomously? "

You are correct.

"If only licensed psychologists can supervise, you could say, "Without the supervision of a licensed psychologist, therapists cannot do X."


So what's X? "

X='practice independently' if the "therapists" you speak of are not fully licensed.
 
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"So the biggest difference between a master's and a doctorate are assessment, supervision, and some extra money. "

I can't answer this as well as the experienced PhD's on this board, but I know enough to give a short answer. No.

Oh yeah, purely in terms of clinical practice, i.e. ignoring any distinctions re: capacity to conduct research, teach, et al.

So what's X? "

X='practice independently' if the "therapists" you speak of are not fully licensed.

Okay, got it. Does this definition of supervision mean that MSWs are free to pursue administrative capacities, even as administrators over other master's level therapists?
 
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Oh yeah, purely in terms of clinical practice, i.e. ignoring any distinctions re: capacity to conduct research, teach, et al.



Okay, got it. Does this definition of supervision mean that MSWs are free to pursue administrative capacities, even as administrators over other master's level therapists?

Yes, MSWs frequently are used as admins of departments. all MSWs receive some program training. most MSW programs will even have a community practice track. These types of students are typically hired to be admins.
 
MSWs can supervise. I supervised MA and MSW students, and once licensed, you can supervise other MSWs. You can teach in some places that allow masters level instructors. Research is less common but I don't know why you couldn't do it. You can be an administrator. You can run a private practice, though not all insurance panels will accept you if you aren't under an MD. You can work in a variety of settings dong nearly everything a phd can do. Testing and supervising MD residents are about the only things I do with my doctorate that I wasn't able to do with my MSW. But I like those things.
 
I don't get the point of these threads - either you want to be a "doctor" or you don't. Nothing else matters.
 
I don't get the point of these threads - either you want to be a "doctor" or you don't. Nothing else matters.

It seems as though the point was to get some questions answered about the two professions. He didn't ask which one would fulfill his desire to become a "doctor" or not. If that was the case the answer would have been a lot more plain an simple: become a doctor.
 
I don't get the point of these threads - either you want to be a "doctor" or you don't. Nothing else matters.

I hope this is a joke as I'd argue that attitude is precisely the cause of many problems in the field. Folks SHOULD be looking much more closely at what kind of career/lifestyle/job activities they want and what they realistically are capable of doing. We have seen endless examples on this board where people want to be "doctors" but either don't plan to engage in or explicitly want to avoid all the additional activities a doctorate provides training in. These are often the folks populating the "problem schools" that are devaluing the profession by providing master's level training and slapping a "doctorate" bumper sticker on top of it.
 
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Sorry, I forget my sarcasm doesn't come through online. Though I agree with both of you.
 
Sorry, I forget my sarcasm doesn't come through online. Though I agree with both of you.

If it was unclear, it wasn't because the sarcasm didn't show -- it was because I'm still uncertain your post isn't the actual attitude of a great number of PhD applicants year after year.

Hate to take it here, but anyone have a sense of the average pay gap in private practice, for example? Does that justify the degree? Or is everyone just spending an extra 4 or 5 years in school over testing and supervising MD residents?
 
Is the Medicare fee schedule public information? I can't remember. I would say anyone intending to go into private practice should compare reimbursement at the doctoral vs. master's level. There are certainly other more important factors when considering which discipline to dedicate your professional life to... but the number-crunching really doesn't have to be a mystery.
 
Yep, the fee schedule info is public. Just do a search and you can find what is billed for services in your area. Just remember that certain areas have state restrictions on some codes. For example, you can't bill for certain npsych services in some states if you are not a boarded neuropsychologist. Other states will restrict other codes for certain specialties.
 
If it was unclear, it wasn't because the sarcasm didn't show -- it was because I'm still uncertain your post isn't the actual attitude of a great number of PhD applicants year after year.

Hate to take it here, but anyone have a sense of the average pay gap in private practice, for example? Does that justify the degree? Or is everyone just spending an extra 4 or 5 years in school over testing and supervising MD residents?
The top ten percent of social workers make a median of 71K. The top ten percent of psychologists makes a median of 111K. I haven't seen a breakdown for private practice specifically.

Private practice success is determined by a lot of factors besides just the amount you can bill for individual psychotherapy. Being able to conduct some testing is a good way to maximize your profits, for example. When I have a no show, that is when I write up my reports which makes it into billable time. You also have to look at marketing yourself. Having the psychologist title gives me an edge when it comes to generating business and every little bit counts. Also, having a known school helps. The biggest factor is your own abilities because if patients don't perceive value, then you won't make it in private practice regardless of your degree or education.
 
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The top ten percent of social workers make a median of 71K. The top ten percent of psychologists makes a median of 111K. I haven't seen a breakdown for private practice specifically. .

Very helpful post, STP. Do you have a source for the stats in the very beginning?
 
This may diverge from the topic at hand a bit, but what types of services do not rely on insurance? Consulting? Expert witness work?
 
Many people in the private sector will not accept insurance, or only accept a small portion of clients with insurance. I know many npsychs who are cash only so they don't have to deal with insurance company bull****.
 
The top ten percent of social workers make a median of 71K. The top ten percent of psychologists makes a median of 111K. I haven't seen a breakdown for private practice specifically.
.

There are NASW salary surveys available, there's even one for private practice that I'm unable to find right now (and don't have the time), but this is the 2010 survey's breakdown of base pay alone:
10th percentile (10% earn less)
$28,100
25th percentile (25% earn less)
$41,000
50th percentile (50% earn less)
$55,000
75th percentile (75% earn less)
$71,000
90th percentile (90% earn less)
$92,000

http://www.naswdc.org/pressroom/2010/salarystudy2010.pdf
 
I'm going to peep in here with a friendly reminder that there are other master level positions where you can provide therapy, not only social work. For example, a masters in counseling or in psychology or in counseling psychology. Those numbers look pretty accurate for masters level clinicians. I also know many that don't accept insurance and make a ton. I know master level clinicians in private practice that make around mid 70's.

I'm not sure what exactly the question is when it comes to what kind of practices don't rely on insurance- because there are so many different types of services offered that don't require insurance (consulting, emergency services, hospital work, schools, etc), but if you mean in terms of providing counseling without having to deal with insurance, doing so for larger companies (like the state or city or a hospital or a vendor to one of these groups) would take the pressure off the clinician, as they typically accept everyone as a patient.
 
I worked as an insurance coordinator and psychometrist for a clinical psychologist in private practice for about a year and a half, and I was quickly disillusioned by the idea of pursuing a career in private practice.

Our practice's standard non-insurance rate for psychological testing was $150/hour, but most insurance reimbursement rates were between $40-80/hour, so generally speaking we were taking a 50-75% hit on all insurance cases. I learned a ton in this position, but the most valuable thing I learned was that a successful private practice will have a lot of business in areas not covered by insurance. We worked a lot with psychoeducational and forensic testing, since these were areas not generally covered by insurance, since they're often deemed 'not medically necessary'. A standard psychoeducational evaluation would be billed for 8-12 'hours' of testing (including administration, scoring, and write-up), and since people usually had to pay out of pocket, this is where most of our bread and butter would come from. We also worked closely with several attorneys' offices (forensic/legal testing isn't usually covered by insurance - i.e. DUI/DWI, violence risk appraisal, sexual deviance, etc.) and with a number of state agencies (corrections, work release, juvenile justice, etc.) that were all paid for outside of insurance.

Insurance companies are a necessary evil because they increase the number of patients coming to your office, but in exchange they (often) gouge you on reimbursement. In addition to the significantly reduced reimbursement rates there are literally hours (non-billable) of insurance verification, authorization, and claims that you have to do for every patient - sometimes even for each individual session. You can sometimes hire a third party or bring on a staff member (me) to do this for you, but then that adds to your overhead.

I'm in the middle of applying to clinical PhD programs now, but I am very glad to have witnessed the realities of private practice at such an early point in my career. As of right now, I'm interested in pursuing a joint research-clinical position with a VA medical center and research university or medical school, due largely to my own research and clinical interests, but also because of the single-payer VA system (no insurance companies to mess with). I could see myself operating a small, specialized practice (cash only) on the side, but based on my own experience, I'm not business minded or savvy enough to build a large practice from the ground up.
 
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Thanks to everyone for your input, this has been very informative. I ended up finding the NASW private practice salary report here: http://workforce.socialworkers.org/studies/profiles/Private Practice Solo and Group.pdf
Looks as though private practitioners with social work degrees can make upwards of 130k with enough experience (though this is obviously very uncommon.)

It seems like the consensus is that insurance reimbursement is kind of a ripoff, reimbursement for therapy is particularly bad with psychologists making scarcely more than LCSWs, and most private practices relying on other services like testing and consulting for the lion's share of their income. If this is fair....how in the world would any social worker make so much money, without being able to provide the very services that net the greatest profits for psychologists? What services can they offer to possibly break 6 figures a year?
 
Thanks to everyone for your input, this has been very informative. I ended up finding the NASW private practice salary report here: http://workforce.socialworkers.org/studies/profiles/Private Practice Solo and Group.pdf
Looks as though private practitioners with social work degrees can make upwards of 130k with enough experience (though this is obviously very uncommon.)

It seems like the consensus is that insurance reimbursement is kind of a ripoff, reimbursement for therapy is particularly bad with psychologists making scarcely more than LCSWs, and most private practices relying on other services like testing and consulting for the lion's share of their income. If this is fair....how in the world would any social worker make so much money, without being able to provide the very services that net the greatest profits for psychologists? What services can they offer to possibly break 6 figures a year?

My guess would be that they offer a large proportion of private pay therapy, and may also have various other active and passive income streams. If someone were relying solely on insurance-referred/insurance-pay clients as their means of private practice income, whether they be a psychologist or masters-level provider, I'd imagine they'd struggle a bit in the current environment. As was mentioned above, all of the successful private practice folks I know have had multiple projects ongoing (e.g., private- and insurance-pay clients, contracts with other facilities in the area for assessment/treatment, consultation). That, or all they did was forensics, which can also be pretty darn lucrative (but is very high-stress).
 
Thanks to everyone for your input, this has been very informative. I ended up finding the NASW private practice salary report here: http://workforce.socialworkers.org/studies/profiles/Private Practice Solo and Group.pdf
Looks as though private practitioners with social work degrees can make upwards of 130k with enough experience (though this is obviously very uncommon.)

It seems like the consensus is that insurance reimbursement is kind of a ripoff, reimbursement for therapy is particularly bad with psychologists making scarcely more than LCSWs, and most private practices relying on other services like testing and consulting for the lion's share of their income. If this is fair....how in the world would any social worker make so much money, without being able to provide the very services that net the greatest profits for psychologists? What services can they offer to possibly break 6 figures a year?
One social worker who used to post on this site a lot had a practice specializing in working with mandated treatment of physicians. I knew a psychologist who had a profitable anger management practice. Both of these were cash pay and used group delivery to maximize income. Also, I used to get a flat rate to go to a local school and jail a few hours each week, if negotiated well, those types of gigs can increase revenue, too.
 
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