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Doris Duke/CRTP/HHMI/Sarnoff Thread

Discussion in 'Student Research and Publishing' started by OptimallyPrime, 02.06.07.

  1. KarmaDoc

    KarmaDoc

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    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    Are you serious? They are ending the HHMI Clositers program? Are they going to still continue the main HHMI Medical Research Fellows Program and the smaller one at Janelia Farm?
  2. thesauce

    thesauce Senior Member

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    http://www.hhmi.org/cloister/apply.html

    I don't think there will be any changes to the other programs.
  3. PromisingCapita

    PromisingCapita

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    My dean said that HHMI wanted to focus more on the Med Fellows Program since it has generated more successful first-author projects from students given that all the students had to craft a lengthy project-proposal as part of the application process. This project proposal really helped guide the students during their research year and guaranteed not only greater autonomy but also encouraged students to come up with their own ideas rather than piggybacking off one of the mentor's projects. Submitting a proposal made the Med Fellows program more like a thesis program and also ensured the students and the mentors were invested in each other.

    On the other hand, the Cloisters program didn't require a proposal and hence some students picked a topic and a lab at the last minute. There was less investment between student and mentor and some complaints from both sides (though very few of course).

    Nevertheless, the HHMI-Cloister's program was a great one and has encouraged a lot of physician scientists in the past. It was the longest running research scholarship as well. But in the end, when push came to shove and financial resources were scarce, it had to be the one to go :(
  4. reflex

    reflex New Member

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    Does anyone know if anyone of these programs, specifically HHMI med fellows, allow clinical research to be carried out over basic sci?
  5. thesauce

    thesauce Senior Member

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    It would be a tough sell for med fellows (not impossible, but tough). CRTP and DD are very open to clinical research.
  6. Heisenbergg

    Heisenbergg

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    So I take it that HHMI Med Fellows is the creme de la creme of all year out research programs since it is the one HHMI has prioritized with continued funding and support?
  7. thesauce

    thesauce Senior Member

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    It's definitely a great one, but these programs are not a one-size-fits-all experience. Research Scholars has been going for 25+ years. Med fellows has not been around in its current form for anywhere near that long. Sarnoff is probably the most prestigious program.
  8. Heisenbergg

    Heisenbergg

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    HHMI Med fellows has been around for 22 years since 1989 and even has a journal article detailing its effect on promoting physician scientist careers. I'm sure Sarnoff and all the other fellowships are prestigious as well which is why I'm going to apply to multiple of them but HHMI is undoubtedly the most prestigious scholarship of the group.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=hhmi cloister
    Effect of two Howard Hughes Medical Institute research training programs for medical students on the likelihood of pursuing research careers.

    Fang D, Meyer RE.
    Source

    Division of Biomedical and Health Sciences Research, the Association of American Medical Colleges, Washington, DC, USA.

    Abstract

    PURPOSE:

    To assess the effect of Howard Hughes Medical Institute's (HHMI) two one-year research training programs for medical students on the awardees' research careers.
    METHOD:

    Awardees of the HHMI Cloister Program who graduated between 1987 and 1995 and awardees of the HHMI Medical Fellows Program who graduated between 1991 and 1995 were compared with unsuccessful applicants to the programs and MD-PhD students who graduated during the same periods. Logistic regression analyses were conducted to assess research career outcomes while controlling for academic and demographic variables that could affect selection to the programs.
    RESULTS:

    Participation in both HHMI programs increased the likelihood of receiving National Institutes of Health postdoctoral support. Participation in the Cloister Program also increased the likelihood of receiving a faculty appointment with research responsibility at a medical school. In addition, awardees of the Medical Fellows Program were not significantly less likely than Medical Scientist Training Program (MSTP) and non-MSTP MD-PhD program participants to receive a National Institutes of Health postdoctoral award, and awardees of the Cloister Program were not significantly less likely than non-MSTP MD-PhD students to receive a faculty appointment with research responsibility. Women and underrepresented minority students were proportionally represented among awardees of the two HHMI programs whereas they were relatively underrepresented in MD-PhD programs.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    The one-year intensive research training supported by the HHMI training programs appears to provide an effective imprinting experience on medical students' research careers and to be an attractive strategy for training physician-scientists.
  9. thesauce

    thesauce Senior Member

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    This is an insightful and often quoted article around HHMI circles. Just to clarify, HHMI med fellows began as a smaller program tied to a few institutions with students from only the most select medical schools. It has since become a larger program tied to dozens of institutions with medical students from almost every medical school in the country. Cloisters has always been a well-diverse group of 42 students centered at the NIH. Hence the "in its current form."

    Heisenbergg: if this is how you truly feel, I strongly urge you not to apply. These institutions are supporting people who are truly interested in science - not resume padding. But even more importantly, you aren't going to be happy in any of the programs with this mindset.
    Last edited: 08.03.11
  10. Heisenbergg

    Heisenbergg

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    I found this website: http://www.hhmi.org/news/fellowsscholars20110701.html which shows not only how many students are in the program but also which medical schools they come from. "This year, 72 students from 30 medical schools were chosen as fellows from a pool of 244 applicants." Of those schools, Harvard Medical School was by far most represented with 15 students, followed by Stanford Medical School with 7, and Duke by 7. I really don't think the 30 top medical schools in the country is necessarily the same as "medical students from almost every medical school in the country" but maybe you and I have different definitions. By comparison, only one Harvard medical student chose to do the Cloisters program this year.

    The size of the HHMI Med Fellows programs has remained roughly stable over the years. If there was a significant shake up in the program, I doubt the research paper would have been published since it relies upon the consistency of the program. In any case, I have always heard of HHMI since my undergrad years and with an endowment of 14.8 billion it not only has multiple multiple multiple times the endowment of the Sarnoff, Doris Duke, CRTP, Fogarty, and all other research fellowship organizations combined, but it also has the largest endowment of any non-profit institution with the exception of the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation.

    Also, HHMI Med Fellows has extreme flexibility with awardees being able to not do research at any medical school but also ANY non-profit research facility including MD Anderson, Memorial Sloan Kettering, Hospital for Special Surgery, and Janelia Farm. You can choose any research interest as well so long as it is in the basic sciences. I believe Sarnoff forces you to leave your medical school to do research and also it is limited to just cardiovascular research and not all of us want to become cardiologists especially after those brutal CMS cuts. In any case, it's hard to say that Sarnoff is the creme de la creme or the Harvard of all year out research programs given those limitations.
  11. PromisingCapita

    PromisingCapita

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    Thanks for the website Hisenberg. It makes sense that Harvard and Stanford are highly represented given that they are research powerhouses. Even more impressive that Stanford's class has like 70 students compared to Harvard's 200+ which makes Stanford proportionally even more represented at 10% of the whole student body doing HHMI especially as a west coast school. Duke makes sense as well with their 3rd year being a research year effectively making all 100 students applying for fellowships like the zombie hoarde. My guess as to why Duke doesn't completely dominate and crush Harvard and Stanford is because they have less stellar faculty and labs compared to those two.
    Last edited: 08.04.11
  12. thesauce

    thesauce Senior Member

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    I wasn't suggesting all schools were represented in one year. Still, since you brought it up, just look at the diversification in just the one year: 72 participants from 30 schools. That's an average of 2-3 people from each of those schools - really pretty good. And we don't even know how many schools had applicants apply. You can bet it wasn't all of them. Half or less is more likely. They get a pretty good representation.

    I'll say again: med fellows is a great program. You really haven't brought up anything I didn't already know. Maybe you're playing to the masses that read this thread (if so, you're wasting your time - there aren't any). The problem with this debate is that it's fundamentally rooted in opinion.

    To clarify, Sarnoff has a VERY broad definition of what qualifies as cardiovascular research. Anti-VEGF agents, interventional procedures, neurovascular research - all are welcome. Program participants have gone into every field you can imagine. The program also has incredible networking. Participants that I know were contacted by chairs of well-respected programs asking them if they could help them out in any way. I haven't seen the same with HHMI.
  13. reflex

    reflex New Member

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    Do people generally do their year of research after 2nd year or after 3rd year? Do you guys have any thoughts on this or was there a prior discussion?
  14. thesauce

    thesauce Senior Member

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    For the soon-to-be-ending Cloister program, it was 2/3 after 2nd year and 1/3 after 3rd year with an occasional participant after 4th. Some of the Doris Duke sites and CRTP require that you be post 3rd year.
  15. reflex

    reflex New Member

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    Has there been any discussion/explanation as to why there is more earlier participation? Publication reasons????
  16. thesauce

    thesauce Senior Member

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    There has been some discussion. For most schools, post 2nd year provides a natural transition to research before you hit clinical sciences.
  17. TalkingHeads

    TalkingHeads

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    anybody applying for doris duke this year? let's get the 2012-2013 group going!
  18. tiedyeddog

    tiedyeddog

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    Is it almost impossible to get an HHMI fellowship doing a project under a PI who is not an HHMI investigator?
  19. thesauce

    thesauce Senior Member

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    Not really, but I would definitely recommend choosing an NIH-funded investigator.
  20. TalkingHeads

    TalkingHeads

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    Doris Duke deadline is coming up! Anyone else doing it this year?
  21. gtivr6t

    gtivr6t

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    Second time I apply to NIH(first time was cloisters), first time Doris Duke. Good luck!
  22. tech2doc

    tech2doc

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    Application submitted yesterday! I'm not sure what to expect over the next couple of months. Can any alumni give us a run down on the time line of the interview process?
  23. thesauce

    thesauce Senior Member

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    Depends on the Doris Duke site. Some interview and some don't. All of the programs make their first round decisions on the same day. Which did you apply to?
  24. tech2doc

    tech2doc

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    Penn
    Pitt
    Yale
    Columbia
    MSSM
    Hopkins
    UNC
    Iowa

    I decided to apply only recently so I wasn't able to put a proposal together. I guess I technically applied to Harvard and UCSF also, but without any sort of proposal (only statement of interest), I doubt I get any love.
  25. thesauce

    thesauce Senior Member

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    Penn and Iowa definitely interview ~1 month after submission. Pitt has done phone interviews in the past. Not too sure about the others - they might be discussed somewhere else in the thread. And things might have changed.
  26. RadicalRadon

    RadicalRadon

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    Any word on when we might hear about interviews? Also, if you get multiple acceptances, what did you use to make a decision.
  27. patbingsoo

    patbingsoo

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    I applied too!
  28. mjk1

    mjk1

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    .
    Last edited: 09.10.13
  29. polyboy112

    polyboy112

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    Second year here - was hoping you guys might be able to answer a couple questions.

    I'm really interested in global health - specifically clinical research (and potentially more public health like the CDC). For next year, I am considering applying for the international Doris Duke, the Global Health fellowship formerly known as Fogarty, and the CDC Hubert.

    However, I'm not sure how competitive I am. I've done well in my classes, but it's p/f so whatever on that. I did a research project over the summer and have an abstract written up that should be submitted (and likely accepted) in the next couple months. Nothing mind blowing, but fairly interesting clinical research. Might get a paper out of it, but that's much less likely - we'll see. Undergrad senior thesis only, no pubs. Other than that, I've just done some standard volunteering, taken some global health/development classes, and the usual personal hobbies.

    Is this normal for an applicant to these programs? Are they highly competitive? And, when do you need to get started on app in order to get it done? Is it especially hard to apply during third year?

    Sorry for all these questions, but nobody I've talked to has much experience with the international programs.
  30. thesauce

    thesauce Senior Member

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    I think you're in good shape. As a second year, there's not much to go on. They'll typically look at your MCAT and pre-clinical grades, but the most weight is probably placed on your LORs and how well you delineate your interest and goals.

    Historically, the international programs have been very competitive. I recommend beginning your app and requesting your LOR as soon as possible. I applied for several programs during 3rd year and my rotations were very accommodating with allowing me to go on interviews, etc.
  31. Paroxetine

    Paroxetine

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    Interview invite from Iowa! So excited! Are we supposed to hear from other schools around this time too? Has anyone done their Doris Duke @ Iowa, any comments or advice? Thanks.
  32. tech2doc

    tech2doc

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    Iowa interview here also! Trying to figure out how to get time off from my OB/GYN rotation. I'm pretty sure they'll let me go to at least one interview, but I don't want to schedule Iowa now and not get to go to any other schools if my clerkship won't let me.
  33. neuronexus

    neuronexus

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    Got an Iowa interview here too! Does anyone know if interviews are standard for all applicants or is there a screening process? I'm also trying to find out where past Doris Duke fellows at Iowa eventually ended up in the match. Any idea of where to look?
    Good luck to everyone applying for year-off programs!:thumbup:
  34. Paroxetine

    Paroxetine

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    Pretty sure they have screening process or else they wouldn't be paying for the interview trip.
  35. Paroxetine

    Paroxetine

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    I also need to know which programs have onsite interviews because I cannot miss too many days. Also, I know one person who did Iowa Doris Duke who matched at Bascom Palmer. Good luck everyone!
  36. HarveyCushing

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    I did a DD year after my MSII year. Then stayed on to do a one year TL1 pre-doc program at the same institution. If anyone has questions let me know. Besides some of the programs already mentioned, there are programs like the NIH supported TL1 that I would recommend those of you interested in research to look into.
  37. TalkingHeads

    TalkingHeads

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    UNC doris duke invites were sent out today
  38. tech2doc

    tech2doc

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    Welp...no love here
  39. tech2doc

    tech2doc

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    Just curious, did the invite include recommendations for potential mentors? I'm hoping that maybe they are personalizing all of the invites and weren't' able to get them all out today...
  40. TalkingHeads

    TalkingHeads

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    No, the email just asked if I was still interested in UNC, and that they would send out a follow-up email later on with interview dates, etc.
    No mentors or projects mentioned
  41. KastAway

    KastAway

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    Yes, Iowa send out automatic interviews everyone. That is because money grows on the rows of corn that you will drive through on your tractor to get to your lab everyday, if you decide to come to Iowa for your year off :laugh:

    On a more serious note, Iowa rocks. It is usually a very tight knit group - and the research is amazing: you can find great mentors, without having a cut-throat environment. It is a typical college town, so I don't need to say more about that. Winters are not that bad - unless you're from puerto rico or california where you never see snow- and that is for a few months anyway. It snows in new england too, right??!! You could not ask for a better program administration either - they totally rock. :thumbup:

    Asking where the grads end up reminds me of the pre-med forums where people ask about match list for a school to decide where to matriculate.:rolleyes: Focus on doing solid research, building good relationships - and hope for the best.

    I can only speak for the year I did my program, but I would highly recommend it, and wouldn't change a thing. If you have specific questions, ask away.
  42. HarveyCushing

    HarveyCushing

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    I agree that UIowa is a great DD program; especially for ortho, optho and ENT. However in my research interest the options were lacking as most of it was traditional bench basic science research. YMMV. The program I ended up going to offered me a greater variety of true clinical research. But I would have been super happy to have been at UIowa. Great town. Great facilities on campus. Low cost of living. Friendly people. One down side is that it is difficult/expensive to fly into if you plan on traveling some during your year off. But not something that you can't deal with.
  43. KastAway

    KastAway

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    Traveling out of cedar rapids isn't as expensive as people might think it is. Cost of living here is surprisingly low - although housing is higher than for a small midwest city. Nothing in comparing to St. Louis, and worlds away from say good ole Frisco or Boston - but bigger cities have their unique advantages.

    And yes, the the "Os" (optho/otho/ortho) are what Iowa is known for. But they have great Psych(program director) and Peds too. They are very basic science heavy, I agree, but I didn't think Wash U was any different, at least for me. I think it depends on the mentor and the project area. I have to give props to Wash U for offering TL1s to people from outside the institution. I remember looking for TL1s, and found them to be for mostly a school's own students.
  44. KastAway

    KastAway

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    Was this for an international spot? I don't remember them interviewing for the local program.
  45. KastAway

    KastAway

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    Remember same about above for Pitt, and I think UTSW phone interviewed too, if things have not changed.
  46. HarveyCushing

    HarveyCushing

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    I didn't realize that about Cedar Rapids. How far is that, 45 min?

    UIowa is great and I am planning on applying there for residency. All that I was saying was for me and my particular field of research interest, it wasn't as strong compared to WashU where I ended up. For other fields it might be different. St Louis offered my wife more job opportunities compared to Iowa City. Plus, I also enjoyed the other aspects that St. Louis offered for over a smaller college town. Both will give you a great experience through the DD. Dr. Nopoulos is great and seems very active and involved from my experience when I interviewed and met them again at the national DD meeting.

    Not sure what field you were looking at but WashU has a clinical research institute that is focused on clinical research. Lots of clinical research WashU has a lot of basic research as well but they also have clinical research. I didn't step in a basic science lab during my two years there. Everything I did was based on actual patients.

    If one is interested in genetics or imaging of any sorts (or a degree of them in a project), WashU is definitely a top choice. Mallinckrodt radiology is loaded with $$$. Their funding for that department rivals many medical schools entire research funding. Talk about the latest tech. They have amazing imaging centers just for research. No clinical use at all.

    But for another field/research topic place X could be the place to be. Just depends what your research topic is. It really isn't about the name/reputation but rather the mentor and research topic. I am personally happy with the productivity of my time off with the publications I got out of it. So work hard and you will be happy with your experience. I have heard of some students who were "lazy" / not as motivated and feel bad they would take a year off for that.
  47. tech2doc

    tech2doc

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    Iowa interviews on Friday. Any advice on questions I need to be sure and ask my potential mentors? Also, how strict is the "clinical research only" policy? Do students often end up working with mice?
  48. thesauce

    thesauce Senior Member

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    It isn't very strict. UIowa has, or at least used to have, other funding sources as well. So if you choose to work with animals, they will use funds not directly from the Doris Duke endowment to support you. You're still a DD scholar, however.
  49. Paroxetine

    Paroxetine

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    Anyone else hear anything from other schools, it has been so quiet, makes me scared =(

    gluck tech2doc! let me know how it goes, I have yet to schedule since I can't take too many days off
  50. RadicalRadon

    RadicalRadon

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    haven't heard anything. they say "mid-feb"... probably more invites in <2wks

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