DOs Residency Merger with ACGME

[hallowmann]

The place that provides me the most room for professional development.

This is true, but most people thrive in relatively positive (at least interpersonally) environments. You really have to get used to working as a team in residency (at least that's what I'm seeing from rotations). It's difficult to do that if people already assume you're inferior or not worth their time, or they're just punks

The good news is that's what interviews and auditions are for. Places might sound like the best on paper, but be full of people you can't stand.

That said, I completely agree with abolt18's comments. You don't know why they don't take DOs. Many places I see that don't, don't have a ton of competitive DO applicants applying. Some, you can smell the pretentiousness a mile away, and that's not my scene. But you won't really know that until you meet the people in the program.

Fortunately, this is what I said my passion was in my PS and at every interview so I should be all set!!!

As the year goes on, I'm leaning more and more towards FM. Everything else doesn't really feel like as good of a fit. Its weird, but the social part that everyone seems to hate is the part I actually like the best.

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[DrEnderW]

As the year goes on, I'm leaning more and more towards FM. Everything else doesn't really feel like as good of a fit. Its weird, but the social part that everyone seems to hate is the part I actually like the best.

What did you think you wanted before rotations started? I enjoy the social aspect as well, it's amazing the people you meet.

 

[Mad Jack]

http://thedo.osteopathic.org/2015/10/single-gme-transition-your-top-questions-answered/

 

[NurWollen]

This is true, but most people thrive in relatively positive (at least interpersonally) environments. You really have to get used to working as a team in residency (at least that's what I'm seeing from rotations). It's difficult to do that if people already assume you're inferior or not worth their time, or they're just punks

The good news is that's what interviews and auditions are for. Places might sound like the best on paper, but be full of people you can't stand.

That said, I completely agree with abolt18's comments. You don't know why they don't take DOs. Many places I see that don't, don't have a ton of competitive DO applicants applying. Some, you can smell the pretentiousness a mile away, and that's not my scene. But you won't really know that until you meet the people in the program.



As the year goes on, I'm leaning more and more towards FM. Everything else doesn't really feel like as good of a fit. Its weird, but the social part that everyone seems to hate is the part I actually like the best.

What did you think you wanted before rotations started? I enjoy the social aspect as well, it's amazing the people you meet.

This is a bit of a tangent, but it goes into the "amazing the people you meet" gategory. Has anyone considered that right now we have the privilege of serving WWII veterans? A few more years into our careers and there won't be any left.

 

[iwillnevergiveup]

"
Students want to know if there will be a single GME match.
The National Resident Matching Program, which the ACGME-accredited programs participate in, and the AOA’s matching program will eventually be joined. It’s still too soon to say exactly when, but we want to make this happen in a way that benefits the students as soon as we possibly can."

Single match process is now confirmed, but still no definite date.

I mean...it has to happen before 2020 by LATEST right?

 

[Mad Jack]

"
Students want to know if there will be a single GME match.
The National Resident Matching Program, which the ACGME-accredited programs participate in, and the AOA’s matching program will eventually be joined. It’s still too soon to say exactly when, but we want to make this happen in a way that benefits the students as soon as we possibly can."

Single match process is now confirmed, but still no definite date.

I mean...it has to happen before 2020 by LATEST right?

The original date we were given for a unified match was 2020-2022, if I remember correctly.

 

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

This is a bit of a tangent, but it goes into the "amazing the people you meet" gategory. Has anyone considered that right now we have the privilege of serving WWII veterans? A few more years into our careers and there won't be any left.

A couple Holocaust survivors came to our clinic the other day. That was a great privilege. Kinda got behind because of it but it was worth every extra minute spent.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

This is a bit of a tangent, but it goes into the "amazing the people you meet" gategory. Has anyone considered that right now we have the privilege of serving WWII veterans? A few more years into our careers and there won't be any left.

You bet. At our VA, I've med dudes who stormed the beach at Normandy and fought in the Battle of the Coral Sea, among other things.

Amazing people, crazy crazy stories.

 

[Bea5T]

The original date we were given for a unified match was 2020-2022, if I remember correctly.

How can it be after 2020 when there will no longer be separate AOA programs? There's already formerly AOA programs that have switched over the the ACGME match

 

[Mad Jack]

How can it be after 2020 when there will no longer be separate AOA programs? There's already formerly AOA programs that have switched over the the ACGME match

Because some osteopathic-focused programs can still choose to participate in the AOA match in order to steal overqualified but insecure candidates that don't want to risk the NRMP match. The match is an entirely separate issue- it is is not run by the accrediting bodies, but rather by the NRMP/AOA/military/SF.

 

[NurWollen]

How can it be after 2020 when there will no longer be separate AOA programs? There's already formerly AOA programs that have switched over the the ACGME match

I've heard of some dually-accredited programs that are just dropping the AOA match. Some are just dropping AOA accreditation altogether.

One thing is I wish the AOA and ACGME would be more transparent about the unified match. Any reason they can't just settle on a date?

 

[abolt18]

I've heard of some dually-accredited programs that are just dropping the AOA match. Some are just dropping AOA accreditation altogether.

One thing is I wish the AOA and ACGME would be more transparent about the unified match. Any reason they can't just settle on a date?

They have previously stated that as programs gain initial accreditation (NOT pre-accreditation) they will transition to the NRMP match. I think it will be a process, not a single event.

 

[hallowmann]

What did you think you wanted before rotations started? I enjoy the social aspect as well, it's amazing the people you meet.

Honestly, I had no idea. I knew that I liked talking with people, but for the first two years I was bouncing between anything from IM or EM, tertiary care specialties, and even surgical subspecialties. I'm leaving IM on the table for now because its something I think I'd be able to do well (not sure if I'd really enjoy it though), and might look into 1-2 specialties based purely on previous interest.

I liked so many parts of FM, more so than anything else I've done, and I'm really not sure what to make of it. The main thing I'm worried about is the number of people in FM that would choose medicine again, but aren't happy with their field. I'm hoping that's mostly people who were stuck doing FM because they had no other choice, as opposed to actually wanting to do it from the beginning.

 

[NurWollen]

Honestly, I had no idea. I knew that I liked talking with people, but for the first two years I was bouncing between anything from IM or EM, tertiary care specialties, and even surgical subspecialties. I'm leaving IM on the table for now because its something I think I'd be able to do well (not sure if I'd really enjoy it though), and might look into 1-2 specialties based purely on previous interest.

I liked so many parts of FM, more so than anything else I've done, and I'm really not sure what to make of it. The main thing I'm worried about is the number of people in FM that would choose medicine again, but aren't happy with their field. I'm hoping that's mostly people who were stuck doing FM because they had no other choice, as opposed to actually wanting to do it from the beginning.

Are you basing that on Medscape's physician satisfaction survey? I wonder how accurate it is. I haven't looked closely at it lately, but I know the compensation survey has big year-to-year variation that makes me question it's validity.

 

[hallowmann]

Are you basing that on Medscape's physician satisfaction survey? I wonder how accurate it is. I haven't looked closely at it lately, but I know the compensation survey has big year-to-year variation that makes me question it's validity.

Yeah, that and all the docs (some FM and others general IM working in PC) I've met that tell me pretty much the same thing. I've noticed the year to year variation too, but I'm mainly worried there is an aspect to FM that drives people crazy that I just don't know about yet.

 

[Mjolner]

Yeah, that and all the docs (some FM and others general IM working in PC) I've met that tell me pretty much the same thing. I've noticed the year to year variation too, but I'm mainly worried there is an aspect to FM that drives people crazy that I just don't know about yet.

I think it comes down to two things: physicians who didn't want FM for whatever reason but had limited options do to the strength of their application and physicians who look at how other specialties are compensated in comparison and feel somehow shortchanged.

I wouldn't worry about FM if you enjoy the field and don't put your self worth in how much more money you make than your colleagues.

 

[as1212559]

I've heard of some dually-accredited programs that are just dropping the AOA match. Some are just dropping AOA accreditation altogether.

One thing is I wish the AOA and ACGME would be more transparent about the unified match. Any reason they can't just settle on a date?

Just like the single accreditation agreement with ACGME, this is a business negotiation with the NRMP. The NRMP is being asked to absorb several thousand new slots all at once as well so it's no small logistical undertaking.

Everything about single accreditation has been a step-wise progression. It had to pass the AOA HoD, then the AOA had to figure out how to get the specialties to accept our PDs, now they've had to figure out how to create solvent consortiums covering the AOA programs, and now we're getting to the point where we work on unifying the match. I think 2020 is a late estimate to be honest. I would be surprised to not see most of the osteopathic residencies in the NRMP by the time the c/o 2018 matches.

 

[residency_seeker]

Do you guys think if it's possible that in future there will only be USMLE exams that DO and MDs would have to write? What are the chances that COMLEX will go away and DOs would only have to write USMLE exams?

 

[235009]

Do you guys think if it's possible that in future there will only be USMLE exams that DO and MDs would have to write? What are the chances that COMLEX will go away and DOs would only have to write USMLE exams?

Unfortunately for DOs the "merger" will likely mean more students feeling obligated to take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX. As long as COCA exists so will COMLEX which is a huge cash cow.

 

[residency_seeker]

What is COCA? I am not worried about taking Usmle rather I am concerned about the possibility of being required to write 'only' Usmle since COMLEX would have been obsolete.

 

[DopaDO]

What is COCA? I am not worried about taking Usmle rather I am concerned about the possibility of being required to write 'only' Usmle since COMLEX would have been obsolete.

Why on earth would you be worried about having to "write" only USMLE? As someone who took both for Step 1 and 2, that would be a great thing.

 

[GUH]

I think it comes down to two things: physicians who didn't want FM for whatever reason but had limited options do to the strength of their application and physicians who look at how other specialties are compensated in comparison and feel somehow shortchanged.

I wouldn't worry about FM if you enjoy the field and don't put your self worth in how much more money you make than your colleagues.

You're implying that FM isn't undergoing major changes due to the consolidation of practices under large corporations, increasingly burdensome meaningful use requirements, and perhaps most importantly, laws allowing midlevels to do the same job as a typical FP without any meaningful supervision.

 

[residency_seeker]

Why on earth would you be worried about having to "write" only USMLE? As someone who took both for Step 1 and 2, that would be a great thing.

I am worried that if I didn't score good on Usmle I would still have a chance to score high in COMLEX but if there is no COMLEX then I will be stuck with poor Usmle scores which would leave me no where.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

I am worried that if I didn't score good on Usmle I would still have a chance to score high in COMLEX but if there is no COMLEX then I will be stuck with poor Usmle scores which would leave me no where.

There will always be a comlex.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I am worried that if I didn't score good on Usmle I would still have a chance to score high in COMLEX but if there is no COMLEX then I will be stuck with poor Usmle scores which would leave me no where.

There is also the situation where you could do well on the USMLE and do poorly on the COMLEX. In this case, the COMLEX would be bringing you down.

 

[residency_seeker]

But do you guys think that once the merger is complete and there is only 1 match for both DOs and MDs then they can also come up with 1 exam (Usmle) rather then having both Usmle and COMLEX?
@YankeeCandle1141: what makes you think that COMLEX will always be there?

 

[meliora27]

The COMLEX is a cash cow for the NBOME and it's stakeholders. It's not going anywhere.

I am of the firm belief however that any physician who seeks a license to practice medicine in the United States, should have to take the SAME (USMLE) licensing exam. This would also have an indirect benefit of bolstering the DO degree, because face it, the COMLEX doesn't exactly serve as a source of pride...

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

There will always be a comlex.

Your word means nothing

 

[jw3600]

Your word means nothing

God I hope you're right.

 

[Goro]

American medical education is an ever evolving field, and so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the COMLEX becomes only an exit exam for the COMs, and all medical students will have to take USMLE as their licensing exam. Time will tell.

Do you guys think if it's possible that in future there will only be USMLE exams that DO and MDs would have to write? What are the chances that COMLEX will go away and DOs would only have to write USMLE exams?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

God I hope you're right.

I was referring to this:

Actually, rather than engage...... I promise I will delete my account and never visit SDN again if anyone can cite 5 programs that refuse to apply for accreditation over costs.


Edit: that includes every specialty, and every state. A total of 5, and I wont even respond to the post. I will just disappear.

Then I will chop it down to 2. Show me 2 programs that close for accreditation costs and I will be history.

 

[scooter tooter]

So the merger and single application is set to be finalized in July 2020. Will this affect graduating students in the next couple years until then? Or will it be more significant for those students graduating beginning in the class of 2021?

@Goro

 

[GUH]

So the merger and single application is set to be finalized in July 2020. Will this affect graduating students in the next couple years until then? Or will it be more significant for those students graduating beginning in the class of 2021?

@Goro

Fourth-year and graduating students are already being affected by this due to programs switching to ACGME in anticipation of the deadline. Also some programs have stopped taking new residents.

 

[Gandyy]

I mean whether we want to admit it or not, as DO students we're not the top dog. People are scared regardless of whether it's substantiated or not.

True, but neither are all the students from low tier MD schools. There are many students in low tier MD schools who had a Sub 30 MCAT and 3.5-3.7 gpa who could have very well ended up in "top tier" DO schools.

 

[iwillnevergiveup]

I just want to know when the single match process is getting implemented.

 

[Gandyy]

LOL "elect"... as if it was their choice

Still spouting elitist, narrow minded stuff I see with no merit to display yourself.

Literally one of the the worst kind of people. Period.

Thank goodness you were banned

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

True, but neither are all the students from low tier MD schools. There are many students in low tier MD schools who had a Sub 30 MCAT and 3.5-3.7 gpa who could have very well ended up in "top tier" DO schools.

Which is the issue here. A 3.5/30 can either end up in a good DO program or a low tier MD school. Going to the MD school will lead to them having an extremely better chance at many residencies than had he gone into a DO school. A

Low Tier MD still undoubtedly have good pickings for residencies. Sure they're not going to MGH, but if they want a high tier IM, surgery, or residencies like Derm, opto, Uro they'll have enormously better chances with the same stats as the DO applicant.

 

[Gandyy]

Which is the issue here. A 3.5/30 can either end up in a good DO program or a low tier MD school. Going to the MD school will lead to them having an extremely better chance at many residencies than had he gone into a DO school. A

Low Tier MD still undoubtedly have good pickings for residencies. Sure they're not going to MGH, but if they want a high tier IM, surgery, or residencies like Derm, opto, Uro they'll have enormously better chances with the same stats as the DO applicant.

I thought KCU was one of the DO schools that had better opportunities for students to match at more competitive residency programs though? I understand that going to UMKC for example would put the student in a much better position though.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I thought KCU was one of the DO schools that had better opportunities for students to match at more competitive residency programs though? I understand that going to UMKC for example would put the student in a much better position though.

Don't get me wrong, going to KCU, CCOM, PCOM, etc will make it very realistic to get into many good residencies. However there's no denying that a student with a 200 usmle from UMKC will be able to get into a mid tier IM program, for a DO? Not as likely.

 

[Gandyy]

Don't get me wrong, going to KCU, CCOM, PCOM, etc will make it very realistic to get into many good residencies. However there's no denying that a student with a 200 usmle from UMKC will be able to get into a mid tier IM program, for a DO? Not as likely.

Ah I see. There is a good chance I will be at KCU next year so I was hoping that if I put in the work, I could have some level of choice in a residency.

The way its made to seem on SDN, if you go to a DO school you are locked into primary care.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Ah I see. There is a good chance I will be at KCU next year so I was hoping that if I put in the work, I could have some level of choice in a residency.

The way its made to seem on SDN, if you go to a DO school you are locked into primary care.

I think many people overemphasize the pertinence of being able to match surgery or high tier programs on this site. Likewise people on this site seem to liken FM to the worst thing that can ever happen to a medical school graduate.


Though to clarify I do think if you want to do surgery you should be able to do it. But I do strongly believe that in truth a very small minority of people really want to do it.

 

[deleted564680]

I've never seen the appeal of general surgery....less pay than most physicians...more hours....and the surgeries are crap (literally). The modern general surgeon is a glutton for punishment in my opinion and I thank all the gods that there are people out there that do the job. I just can't imagine why they choose it.

 

[Brorthopedic]

Ah I see. There is a good chance I will be at KCU next year so I was hoping that if I put in the work, I could have some level of choice in a residency.

The way its made to seem on SDN, if you go to a DO school you are locked into primary care.

People generally have little idea in what they're talking about. For example, look at the 2015 NSU-COM match list (http://osteopathic.nova.edu/images/intern_site15.pdf#Placements) out of 236 graduates, 28 matched into Family Medicine and 81 matched IM. 6 into Ortho, 2 into neurosurgery, 18 into EM, 8 into GS, 8 into Radiology, and even 1 in Plastics.

Does the DO bias exist? Sure. Will it become increasingly difficult to match in competitive specialties over the years? You bet. However, at the end of the day, it comes down to the work YOU put in. Don't confuse difficulty with impossibility.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I've never seen the appeal of general surgery....less pay than most physicians...more hours....and the surgeries are crap (literally). The modern general surgeon is a glutton for punishment in my opinion and I thank all the gods that there are people out there that do the job. I just can't imagine why they choose it.

I imagine a personality disorder that is exacerbated by their current and future spouses.

 

[Giovanotto]

I've never seen the appeal of general surgery....less pay than most physicians...more hours....and the surgeries are crap (literally). The modern general surgeon is a glutton for punishment in my opinion and I thank all the gods that there are people out there that do the job. I just can't imagine why they choose it.

The FP of the surgery world? I like jack-of-all-trades type professions, therefore I can see myself liking general surgery.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The FP of the surgery world? I like jack-of-all-trades type professions, therefore I can see myself liking general surgery.

Idk if that really is how it works though. I'm pretty sure general surgeons mostly just do abdominal and thorax surgery. I'm pretty sure many only focus on one area.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Idk if that really is how it works though. I'm pretty sure general surgeons mostly just do abdominal and thorax surgery. I'm pretty sure many only focus on one area.

I think he's right. They are trained to do a variety of surgeries, but there are some that tend to focus on one area mainly to maximize their earnings.

This was written by Dr. Gary Timmerman on the American College of Surgeons site:

"In today's environment of specialization and subspecialization, I find that as a general surgeon, my value to the patient, family physicians, and health plans grows considerably every year. General surgery affords broad, yet often very specialized training in all disciplines of surgery and medicine. After completing my residency, I became qualified to manage a wide variety of ailments, from gastrointestinal problems to endocrine surgery, from hypertensive crises to rupturing aneurysms. My training enables me to be the best person to manage patients requiring multi-system care such as major trauma, and I am frequently called upon to address complex medical and ethical issues."

https://www.facs.org/education/resources/residency-search/specialties/general

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I've never seen the appeal of general surgery....less pay than most physicians...more hours....and the surgeries are crap (literally). The modern general surgeon is a glutton for punishment in my opinion and I thank all the gods that there are people out there that do the job. I just can't imagine why they choose it.

More people who don't understand what we do and yet choose to "crap" on us for lack of a better word

 

[Gandyy]

Technically, even if you have been a General Surgeon for years, or an IM physician for years, you can always go back and sub specialize right? Of course I can see why many people dont do that as going from longtime physician back to resident would not be appealing.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Technically, even if you have been a General Surgeon for years, or an IM physician for years, you can always go back and sub specialize right? Of course I can see why many people dont do that as going from longtime physician back to resident would not be appealing.

Technically yes; practically not as much