DOs Residency Merger with ACGME

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Sorry. You're wrong. I know tons of classmates who came talking about derm, cards, ortho, uro and ENT who are now talking EM, neuro, Pm&r, GS and gas and these are all people at the top of the class. When people truly realize that some specialties and some programs are closed no matter what, they adjust accordingly. Well, the ones who can see the reality that exists, not the reality that they want to exist.

Sure, lots of DO want primary care. But lots want competitive specialties too. To say that none do is a fallacy.

Very true. I just spoke with a classmate who was/is gunning for ortho surg and has realized that having no ortho department at our school which has really been detrimental to him because he can't find clinical research outside despite having a few health systems in KC. Compare that to my other friend at Case Western Med who is being mentored by the co chair of their ortho department . It's quite unfair to "trick" those wanting to go into competitive or academic specialties saying they'll have no problem getting them when the resources you get at hand from the med school are so limited that you find yourself crossing out specialties because you just can't get the things you need.

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Sorry. You're wrong. I know tons of classmates who came talking about derm, cards, ortho, uro and ENT who are now talking EM, neuro, Pm&r, GS and gas and these are all people at the top of the class. When people truly realize that some specialties and some programs are closed no matter what, they adjust accordingly. Well, the ones who can see the reality that exists, not the reality that they want to exist.

Sure, lots of DO want primary care. But lots want competitive specialties too. To say that none do is a fallacy.

Way to miss my point. I'm saying that no one is stuck in moratorium. Very few are going into FM because they really have no choice over a selection of many not competitive specialties.

Sure, for Surgery it's hard. But I'm talking the big picture. And just for your example, I came in talking about psych, I now think something else might be more my tune.
 
I think the original 5 and the 6 public do schools all have good clinical training sites. Quite frankly, in my opinion, many of the new DO (past 10 years) shouldn't open until they have legit clinical sites.

Also should not be expanding out their classes from 150 to 200 in one year...
 
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Very true. I just spoke with a classmate who was/is gunning for ortho surg and has realized that having no ortho department at our school which has really been detrimental to him because he can't find clinical research outside despite having a few health systems in KC. Compare that to my other friend at Case Western Med who is being mentored by the co chair of their ortho department . It's quite unfair to "trick" those wanting to go into competitive or academic specialties saying they'll have no problem getting them when the resources you get at hand from the med school are so limited that you find yourself crossing out specialties because you just can't get the things you need.


Well, he'll end up in an AOA program if he wants to still do it. There are AOA residents on here that have stated their programs aren't as great as university programs, but they still have good training.


Honestly again, I don't think in good conscious it's a valid or realistic method to apply and generalize the prospect of a very competitive edge of the GME world to the matching and the functioning of 90% of DO applicants who really don't want anything to do with surgery the second day of MSK....

Most DOs are selecting FM because it appeals to them. And there are plenty of specialties that aren't as bad for DO applicants as surgery which again, is a minority interest in the grand scheme of things even for MD students.
 
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Very true. I just spoke with a classmate who was/is gunning for ortho surg and has realized that having no ortho department at our school which has really been detrimental to him because he can't find clinical research outside despite having a few health systems in KC. Compare that to my other friend at Case Western Med who is being mentored by the co chair of their ortho department . It's quite unfair to "trick" those wanting to go into competitive or academic specialties saying they'll have no problem getting them when the resources you get at hand from the med school are so limited that you find yourself crossing out specialties because you just can't get the things you need.

Does the nearby MD schools have ortho departments? If so, did your friend have difficult getting research with them?
 
Does the nearby MD schools have ortho departments? If so, did your friend have difficult getting research with them?
Yeah they do and yeah its been very hard connecting with them unfortunatley. It was the same for me with regards to reaching out to GI departments. Have a. home based clinical department for me is god-send.
 
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Yeah they do and yeah its been very hard connecting with them unfortunatley. It was the same for me with regards to reaching out to GI departments. Have a. home based clinical department for me is god-send.


I'm surprised this course hasn't killed your interest in GI lol...
 
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And nearly 90% of DO fellows who apply do end up matching a fellowship. Sure, Cards and GI is unlikely, but honestly there are in-house fellowships.

Oh 90%? Where did you get that statistic? Seems to be straight from your GI tract.

Here are the actual facts from the last fellowship match.

Overall match rate:
US MDs 91%
DOs 75%
US IMGs 63%
FMGs 69%

...unfortunately not broken down by subspecialty. Keep in mind there's a lot of self-selection that goes into his too.

Also take a look at this WAMC post to get an idea of where the ceiling for DOs lies in IM...

Current MS3 here.

School: DO school in NY
Step 1: 261
COMLEX: 742 (99th percentile)
Step 2: Not taken
Class rank: #2
AOA: SSP (DO equivalent)
Preclinical: GPA = 3.92
Clerkships: A's in all clerkships thus far
Research: 2 first authors under review, 1 second author under review, 1 first author published before med school, 2 book chapters, 11 abstracts, few research scholarships and awards
Activities: A good amount of leadership, tutoring; community service

Interested in university based program in Northeast... suggestions?

Temple, Jefferson, Drexel, RWJ, Georgetown, GWU, VCU, Yale Primary Care, Rutgers NJMS, Northwell, Stony Brook, Dartmouth, UConn, Rochester, UVa, Brown, UMass, UPenn Primary Care

...if that poster was a US MD with those stats those programs would only be mentioned as safeties but more likely would be a waste of money to apply to most
 
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Yeah they do and yeah its been very hard connecting with them unfortunatley. It was the same for me with regards to reaching out to GI departments. Have a. home based clinical department for me is god-send.

Is the problem more of a proximity issue to where you are or more of establishing a line of consistent communication?
 
Very true. I just spoke with a classmate who was/is gunning for ortho surg and has realized that having no ortho department at our school which has really been detrimental to him because he can't find clinical research outside despite having a few health systems in KC. Compare that to my other friend at Case Western Med who is being mentored by the co chair of their ortho department . It's quite unfair to "trick" those wanting to go into competitive or academic specialties saying they'll have no problem getting them when the resources you get at hand from the med school are so limited that you find yourself crossing out specialties because you just can't get the things you need.

Well that is the reality of life for DOs who are interested in tough fields like Orthopedics, they have to work harder, there was a student at my school who got into an Allopathic Dermatology residency but he had to work much harder than someone at a top Allopathic program to get there. You will keep hearing these little engine that could stories but the reality is that if you want those competitive specialties as a DO its an uphill fight.
 
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Oh 90%? Where did you get that statistic? Seems to be straight from your GI tract.

Here are the actual facts from the last fellowship match.

Overall match rate:
US MDs 91%
DOs 75%
US IMGs 63%
FMGs 69%

...unfortunately not broken down by subspecialty. Keep in mind there's a lot of self-selection that goes into his too.

Also take a look at this WAMC post to get an idea of where the ceiling for DOs lies in IM...





...if that poster was a US MD with those stats those programs would only be mentioned as safeties but more likely would be a waste of money to apply to most

And yet you're yourself as a MD with studly stats go to a safety program. That guy will probably go to a mid tier IM program and specialize in his selected specialty.

Your point is invalid.
 
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Well that is the reality of life for DOs who are interested in tough fields like Orthopedics, they have to work harder, there was a student at my school who go into an Allopathic Dermatology residency but he had to work much harder than someone at a top Allopathic program to get there. You will keep hearing these little engine that could stories but the reality is that if you want those competitive specialties as a DO its an uphill fight.

There's a difference between having to work harder and being outright eliminated bc the applicant is a second class DO physician.
 
Let me just summarize my point.

1) It's hard for DOs to specialize in a select number of specialties. This is an issue. But I don't believe it affects many prospective DO graduates because it really isn't their goal. I could be wrong and maybe 90% of DOs want to be surgeons. But I think generally the vast majority of DOs will match in relatively good positions. Sure they will be statistically worse than their MD counterparts, but chances are it will be adequate and their chances of matching in higher positions and specialties are improving.

2) We need to stop this notion that there is something wrong with a DO choosing FM, or even a MD. People choose their specialties are many find FM and primary care or hospitalist something that fits their goals. Likewise we should accept that most people are not interested in attaining the most competitive specialties which SDN does indeed overblow ( The reality is that we're literally talking 80% of most classes being entirely uninterested in derm, cards, gi, surgery, etc). Most people are still aiming for PC because that's what they think of medicine when they entered medical school.
> Acknowledging MeatTorando's position. There is a glass ceiling for DOs and they will struggle to match at the same rate as their MD counterparts for their specific goals. However for most DOs a university affiliated or good community program isn't going to make them a bad physician.
> Acknowledging that competitiveness of a program does not also inherently mean that it is a bad program.

3) We're too stuck on what is truthfully arbitrary classifications of prestige and ranked tiers and not enough on what are real goals of real people outside of the echobox that is SDN.


Is this reasonable enough that we can end this discussion?
 
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How about everyone (DO or MD) just works hard, mmkay, and then they try and do what they want, mmmkay, but even if they can't do exactly what they want they can do something that would make them happy as well, mmkay.
 
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How about everyone (DO or MD) just works hard, mmkay, and then they try and do what they want, mmmkay, but even if they can't do exactly what they want they can do something that would make them happy as well, mmkay.


But if I can't do derm, I'll never be a fulfilled human being.....
 
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And yet you're yourself as a MD with studly stats go to a safety program. That guy will probably go to a mid tier IM program and specialize in his selected specialty.

Your point is invalid.

I went to stony brook for med school
I have not publicly stated where I'm doing my residency or where I matched for fellowship
That poster has much better stats than I did but his application would (unfortunately for him) not even be considered at my program

Let me just summarize my point.

1) It's hard for DOs to specialize in a select number of specialties. This is an issue. But I don't believe it affects many prospective DO graduates because it really isn't their goal. I could be wrong and maybe 90% of DOs want to be surgeons. But I think generally the vast majority of DOs will match in relatively good positions. Sure they will be statistically worse than their MD counterparts, but chances are it will be adequate and their chances of matching in higher positions and specialties are improving.

2) We need to stop this notion that there is something wrong with a DO choosing FM, or even a MD. People choose their specialties are many find FM and primary care or hospitalist something that fits their goals. Likewise we should accept that most people are not interested in attaining the most competitive specialties which SDN does indeed overblow ( The reality is that we're literally talking 80% of most classes being entirely uninterested in derm, cards, gi, surgery, etc). Most people are still aiming for PC because that's what they think of medicine when they entered medical school.
> Acknowledging MeatTorando's position. There is a glass ceiling for DOs and they will struggle to match at the same rate as their MD counterparts for their specific goals. However for most DOs a university affiliated or good community program isn't going to make them a bad physician.
> Acknowledging that competitiveness of a program does not also inherently mean that it is a bad program.

3) We're too stuck on what is truthfully arbitrary classifications of prestige and ranked tiers and not enough on what are real goals of real people outside of the echobox that is SDN.


Is this reasonable enough that we can end this discussion?

My goal is just to provide adequate information so that students aren't surprised when they get to the end of the road. All of your points in the above post are valid, particularly #2. If your goals are in line with what is attainable for the average DO then it's a great choice for you. What bothers me are the students who go to a DO school thinking they'll be the first to do X Y or Z or that as long as they work hard anything is possible.
 
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I went to stony brook for med school
I have not publicly stated where I'm doing my residency or where I matched for fellowship
That poster has much better stats than I did but his application would (unfortunately for him) not even be considered at my program



My goal is just to provide adequate information so that students aren't surprised when they get to the end of the road. All of your points in the above post are valid, particularly #2. If your goals are in line with what is attainable for the average DO then it's a great choice for you. What bothers me are the students who go to a DO school thinking they'll be the first to do X Y or Z or that as long as they work hard anything is possible.


Alright. We can agree on the stuff that matters. I think ppl do need to be reasonable about their matching potentials. I think you just need to be a bit more open to the idea that there will be progress and improvements in the abilities of DOs to slowly break through the glass ceiling or at least mildly colonize some share of the "good programs".
 
My goal is just to provide adequate information so that students aren't surprised when they get to the end of the road. All of your points in the above post are valid, particularly #2. If your goals are in line with what is attainable for the average DO then it's a great choice for you. What bothers me are the students who go to a DO school thinking they'll be the first to do X Y or Z or that as long as they work hard anything is possible.

What's wrong with people thinking that they could do X Y or Z as long as they work hard? Is it realistic? No, but they will go to a good program somewhere. It might not be their top choice, but it will be their #2 or #3 specialty. You can't take away hope. Hope is actually essential for human progress throughout the ages.

Honestly, not everyone wants to go to ortho, derm, or these gunner specialties. In a DO school, the number of people that want these things is like 15-20% of the entire student body. Most of them are just happy to be given the opportunity to be a physician. I would also say that most of them are very flexible. As long as they can get one of the specialties on their top three, everything is gravy.

I'm going to be honest here. My top choice is radiology, and I will work my hardest in med school to get my specialty. However, if things tighten up and suddenly everyone wants to be a radiologist, I will readjust my choices and pick something else. What I will not accept is the notion that I'm a second class physician as a DO and therefore it's pointless for me to try my hardest. That's a loser mentality.

Work hard, play hard, and hope for the best.
 
I think these threads boil down to this: we all know there's discrimination against DO grads, and we all spend these threads arguing over what the appropriate attitude should be towards that fact.
 
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I don't know why some people keep mentioning that posters who criticize DO schools think that DO physicians are second class physicians...I have not seen it anywhere on this thread. The point we're trying to made here is that DO students are inferior when compared to MD students in many aspects and if you want to continue to use the phrase "second class" (that you yourselves decided to use) might as well make it more accurate by saying DO STUDENTS are considered to be second class when it comes to residency matching. Everyone knows when you're an attending....well you're an attending.
 
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Is the problem more of a proximity issue to where you are or more of establishing a line of consistent communication?

I'm not sure. It's a mixture of things from what I've seen. The proximity isn't bad (UMKC is 5 min away, KU is 10 min away) and I have a hung it may be more of the MD schools just wanting to focus on their own kin first and not really having much time to work with students from KCU. I have spoken with many many of my classmates and so far I don't think any of them have established any sort of relationship with research faculty and either MD school.
Well that is the reality of life for DOs who are interested in tough fields like Orthopedics, they have to work harder, there was a student at my school who go into an Allopathic Dermatology residency but he had to work much harder than someone at a top Allopathic program to get there. You will keep hearing these little engine that could stories but the reality is that if you want those competitive specialties as a DO its an uphill fight.

Oh I def agree. Heck we had two grads go into General Surgery and Derm at the Mayo Clinic (the real one not FL or AZ) which is great but I've never seen that happen ever since and that was three years ago. But like you said, these are n=1 cases and to get there is an uphill battle. A HUGE uphill battle that can be avoided pretty decently if you have an MD and DO acceptance at hand for sure.
 
I'm not sure. It's a mixture of things from what I've seen. The proximity isn't bad (UMKC is 5 min away, KU is 10 min away) and I have a hung it may be more of the MD schools just wanting to focus on their own kin first and not really having much time to work with students from KCU. I have spoken with many many of my classmates and so far I don't think any of them have established any sort of relationship with research faculty and either MD school.


Oh I def agree. Heck we had two grads go into General Surgery and Derm at the Mayo Clinic (the real one not FL or AZ) which is great but I've never seen that happen ever since and that was three years ago. But like you said, these are n=1 cases and to get there is an uphill battle. A HUGE uphill battle that can be avoided pretty decently if you have an MD and DO acceptance at hand for sure.


You couldn't pay me to go live in MN..... literally.
 
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Let me just summarize my point.

1) It's hard for DOs to specialize in a select number of specialties. This is an issue. But I don't believe it affects many prospective DO graduates because it really isn't their goal. I could be wrong and maybe 90% of DOs want to be surgeons. But I think generally the vast majority of DOs will match in relatively good positions. Sure they will be statistically worse than their MD counterparts, but chances are it will be adequate and their chances of matching in higher positions and specialties are improving.

2) We need to stop this notion that there is something wrong with a DO choosing FM, or even a MD. People choose their specialties are many find FM and primary care or hospitalist something that fits their goals. Likewise we should accept that most people are not interested in attaining the most competitive specialties which SDN does indeed overblow ( The reality is that we're literally talking 80% of most classes being entirely uninterested in derm, cards, gi, surgery, etc). Most people are still aiming for PC because that's what they think of medicine when they entered medical school.
> Acknowledging MeatTorando's position. There is a glass ceiling for DOs and they will struggle to match at the same rate as their MD counterparts for their specific goals. However for most DOs a university affiliated or good community program isn't going to make them a bad physician.
> Acknowledging that competitiveness of a program does not also inherently mean that it is a bad program.

3) We're too stuck on what is truthfully arbitrary classifications of prestige and ranked tiers and not enough on what are real goals of real people outside of the echobox that is SDN.


Is this reasonable enough that we can end this discussi
I'm not sure. It's a mixture of things from what I've seen. The proximity isn't bad (UMKC is 5 min away, KU is 10 min away) and I have a hung it may be more of the MD schools just wanting to focus on their own kin first and not really having much time to work with students from KCU. I have spoken with many many of my classmates and so far I don't think any of them have established any sort of relationship with research faculty and either MD school.


Oh I def agree. Heck we had two grads go into General Surgery and Derm at the Mayo Clinic (the real one not FL or AZ) which is great but I've never seen that happen ever since and that was three years ago. But like you said, these are n=1 cases and to get there is an uphill battle. A HUGE uphill battle that can be avoided pretty decently if you have an MD and DO acceptance at hand for sure.

Most DO schools tend to make it very clear that they exist to create primary care physicians, not CT Surgeons. There are a few schools that do not place in their charter that they exist to create primary physicians. There is the occasional token DO that matches into a big name academic program, but these are rare and they had to make amazing efforts in order to accomplish this, at the end of the the day you still become a physician.

Maybe you won't be the next Jonas Salk or Mehmet Oz, but really who cares?
 
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Most DO schools tend to make it very clear that they exist to create primary care physicians, not CT Surgeons. There are a few schools that do not place in their charter that they exist to create primary physicians. There is the occasional token DO that matches into a big name academic program, but these are rare and they had to make amazing efforts in order to accomplish this, at the end of the the day you still become a physician.

Maybe you won't be the next Jonas Salk or Mehmet Oz, but really who cares?


Did you really just put Dr. Oz, a Charlton and Dr. Salk in the same sentence?

But yah, honestly thanks to my interests I'm not too particularly offended by where I'll end up. When I came into DO school I knew I wasn't aiming for surgery and I knew I wouldn't want something heavily procedural. I want to be a regular doctor in a small range of fields that are generally not very competitive or require me to fly to be competitive for them. I don't feel sorry for someone attending a DO school who didn't understand fully that they wouldn't be getting plastics.
 
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My learned colleague is spot on with this one. I have a colleague with an outstanding track record in research productivity and still reviewers will get on her case about "infrastructure "!




And NIH does look at institutional support (and mentorship for K awards), so even if a Bona fide researcher is trying to apply with a good proposal, they are already at a disadvantage.
 
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I went to stony brook for med school...

My goal is just to provide adequate information so that students aren't surprised when they get to the end of the road. All of your points in the above post are valid, particularly #2. If your goals are in line with what is attainable for the average DO then it's a great choice for you. What bothers me are the students who go to a DO school thinking they'll be the first to do X Y or Z or that as long as they work hard anything is possible.

Hey I have a friend that was probably in your class!

Anyway, I think the people who think "I'm going to be the first DO to match X, Y, Z" are mostly just trying to aim high and make the best of their situation. To begin with, 75% of DO students didn't have a better option (US MD).

On here and elsewhere whenever the question is posed, "I got accepted US MD and DO, which should I go to?" even on the DO forums the large consensus is go US MD, because you don't know exactly what you want and residency opportunities will be better. Does that mean we should all throw any thoughts of matching something competitive out the window? Absolutely not, because by aiming for that that's how people match the competitive programs that 1/1000 DOs match into.

Sure, we should be realistic with what's attainable and have backups, but at the same time we don't have to constantly remind ourselves that we have no chance at X.

I think you're fighting an idea that doesn't exist among the vast majority of DO students. I've have yet to meet a DO student in person that believes DOs and US MDs are viewed equally by all residencies. In fact, more often than not, I have to point out to people, you know that moderately competitive field you were thinking about, well here's 10-20 programs that take DOs regularly and who's board cutoffs and averages you meet.
 
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Well one thing we all CAN agree on is DO is a better option than the islanddddd. No fresh juice for me, no sir!

;)
 
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At least you guys are US citizens, unlike me and some others :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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Man so many unrealistic posters in here. You are at a huge disadvantage in the match by default. I've seen it as I interviewed for residency and you experience it too in a few years. There's nothing inherently bad about any specialty but don't act like there's a difference between people doing something because they wanted to and those who had no other choice.
 
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Man so many unrealistic posters in here. You are at a huge disadvantage in the match by default. I've seen it as I interviewed for residency and you experience it too in a few years. There's nothing inherently bad about any specialty but don't act like there's a difference between people doing something because they wanted to and those who had no other choice.

I guess for the person who wanted to do surgery and couldn't. But are we really going back down the a person choose FM/ low tier IM instead of uncompetitive specialties ranging from OB, Psych, Path, Gas, Pm&r, Neuro, etc and that large amounts of DO classes are going to be unhappy with where they ended up?

This could just be the adolescent psychologist in me talking again, but most people go through moratorium successfully and even a second choice is pretty good.
 
I guess for the person who wanted to do surgery and couldn't. But are we really going back down the a person choose FM/ low tier IM instead of uncompetitive specialties ranging from OB, Psych, Path, Gas, Pm&r, Neuro, etc and that large amounts of DO classes are going to be unhappy with where they ended up?

This could just be the adolescent psychologist in me talking again, but most people go through moratorium successfully and even a second choice is pretty good.

Path, Gas, Neuro are not uncompetitive. They had an average step 1 score of approximately 230 in 2014 which was the national average. OB had no open spots left after the match this past year and I know of some US MDs who didn't match. Also, if you're in medical school you will become a psychiatrist, not a psychologist. Also your question makes no sense
 
Path, Gas, Neuro are not uncompetitive. They had an average step 1 score of approximately 230 in 2014 which was the national average. OB had no open spots left after the match this past year and I know of some US MDs who didn't match. Also, if you're in medical school you will become a psychiatrist, not a psychologist. Also your question makes no sense

They're not competitive either. People with scores below the average will match well in those specialties as well.

And I know. I was referring to my undergrad experience.

Also my question did make sense. I'm fighting back against this bs notion that ppl in FM are somehow there because they had no other options and are a largely unhappy crowd of folks.
 
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They're not competitive either. People with scores below the average will match well in those specialties as well.

And I know. I was referring to my undergrad experience.

Also my question did make sense. I'm fighting back against this bs notion that ppl in FM are somehow there because they had no other options and are a largely unhappy crowd of folks.

They are in the middle. And scores below average will not match well. And I don't understand what your question is trying to say
 
Update on Single Accreditation Progress:
As of 2/3/16, it looks like 121 residency and 1 fellowship programs have applied for ACGME accreditation.
14 have gained Initial Accreditation (9 IM, 3 Urology, 1 Peds, 1 Derm)
108 are Pre-Accredited (19 Continued-PA, 89 Pre-Accreditation)
https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Reports/Report/18

In the 2015 AOA match, there were 774 residency programs. Of these 163 are already dual-accredited and 611 only AOA-accredited. So that means about 20% of programs have applied for accreditation thus far, 23% if you don't count TRIs. Some programs have declared they do not intend to apply.

"Update on OGME Program Transition
As of Feb. 1, 122 AOA GME programs have applied for ACGME accreditation as we transition to a single GME accreditation system. These 122 programs join the 163 AOA programs that are already ACGME-accredited (or dually accredited). Therefore, in total, almost 25% of all AOA training programs are in or have completed the ACGME accreditation process." -AOA Family Connections Email, Feb 5, 2016​

Programs that have applied for Osteopathic-recognition: 20 FM, 6 IM, 1 Med/Peds. Most of these programs were already ACGME accredited.
I think it's particularly exciting that 1 dermatology and 3 urology programs have achieved accreditation as these are among the specialties that we have been concerned about making it through the transition. The reason so many IM programs have done so to this date, is they had a Residency Review Committee meeting mid-January reviewing all the applications and site visits to make a decision. I would anticipate this list of programs with Initial Accreditation to grow rather quickly this Spring as more and more RRCs meet to review applications. Most notably, FM (Jan 25-27), Gen Surg (Jan 7-8, Mar 31-Apr 1), Peds (Jan 25-27), IM (Apr 8-10), EM (Jan 14-16, Apr 21-23), Radiology (Jan 28-30), Ortho (Apr 22-23), ENT (Apr 29-30). These specialties have a lot of applications pending review.
 
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Update on Single Accreditation Progress:
As of 2/3/16, it looks like 121 residency and 1 fellowship programs have applied for ACGME accreditation.
14 have gained Initial Accreditation (9 IM, 3 Urology, 1 Peds, 1 Derm)
108 are Pre-Accredited (19 Continued-PA, 89 Pre-Accreditation)
https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Reports/Report/18

In the 2015 AOA match, there were 774 residency programs. So that means about 15% of programs have applied for accreditation thus far, 17% if you don't count TRIs. Some programs have declared they do not intend to apply.

Programs that have applied for Osteopathic-recognition: 20 FM, 6 IM, 1 Med/Peds. Most of these programs were already ACGME accredited.
I think it's particularly exciting that 1 dermatology and 3 urology programs have achieved accreditation as these are among the specialties that we have been concerned about making it through the transition. The reason so many IM programs have done so to this date, is they had a Residency Review Committee meeting mid-January reviewing all the applications and site visits to make a decision. I would anticipate this list of programs with Initial Accreditation to grow rather quickly this Spring as more and more RRCs meet to review applications. Most notably, FM (Jan 25-27), Gen Surg (Jan 7-8, Mar 31-Apr 1), Peds (Jan 25-27), IM (Apr 8-10), EM (Jan 14-16, Apr 21-23), Radiology (Jan 28-30), Ortho (Apr 22-23), ENT (Apr 29-30). These specialties have a lot of applications pending review.

Nice research.
 
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Update on Single Accreditation Progress:
As of 2/3/16, it looks like 121 residency and 1 fellowship programs have applied for ACGME accreditation.
14 have gained Initial Accreditation (9 IM, 3 Urology, 1 Peds, 1 Derm)
108 are Pre-Accredited (19 Continued-PA, 89 Pre-Accreditation)
https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Reports/Report/18

In the 2015 AOA match, there were 774 residency programs. So that means about 15% of programs have applied for accreditation thus far, 17% if you don't count TRIs. Some programs have declared they do not intend to apply.

Programs that have applied for Osteopathic-recognition: 20 FM, 6 IM, 1 Med/Peds. Most of these programs were already ACGME accredited.
I think it's particularly exciting that 1 dermatology and 3 urology programs have achieved accreditation as these are among the specialties that we have been concerned about making it through the transition. The reason so many IM programs have done so to this date, is they had a Residency Review Committee meeting mid-January reviewing all the applications and site visits to make a decision. I would anticipate this list of programs with Initial Accreditation to grow rather quickly this Spring as more and more RRCs meet to review applications. Most notably, FM (Jan 25-27), Gen Surg (Jan 7-8, Mar 31-Apr 1), Peds (Jan 25-27), IM (Apr 8-10), EM (Jan 14-16, Apr 21-23), Radiology (Jan 28-30), Ortho (Apr 22-23), ENT (Apr 29-30). These specialties have a lot of applications pending review.

You are the real MVP.
 
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Does anyone have any real idea how many aoa residencies will close? It's hard to sift through what's legitimate and what's SDN doom and gloom. This site has me thinking that the acgme officials are going to come in and burn 85% of former aoa programs to the ground.


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Does anyone have any real idea how many aoa residencies will close? It's hard to sift through what's legitimate and what's SDN doom and gloom. This site has me thinking that the acgme officials are going to come in and burn 85% of former aoa programs to the ground.
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Honestly, time will tell. They will have a lot of updates for us come the AOA Annual Meeting in late June. People on this forum may hear speculation from program directors or from leaders within AOA who are affiliated with their school, but it's tough to get a reliable estimate as there are so many variables. Someone who sits on these actual RRCs might know best, but I personally don't have connections to these people.

Early in the single accreditation system planning, the AOA, particularly Boyd Buser, DO, has told us students through webinars and public speaking events that they anticipate that most/majority of programs will successfully make the transition; unfortunately, I don't have any sources to provide you on that as those webinars aren't available any longer as far as I can tell. The ACGME of course doesn't like closing programs so it is in the ACGME's interests to help AOA and borderline programs to meet standards with substantial compliance during the transition.

Keep in mind, that to gain initial and continuing accreditation, programs need only to be "in substantial compliance with the applicable Program Requirements and/or the Institutional Requirements." http://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Portals/0/PDFs/Nasca-Community/FAQs.pdf Substantial compliance means they don't have to meet all requirements at 100%. Some requirements are much more important than others (core req vs detail requirement) and is a bit of a subjective judgment. They look at the whole package and make a decision. Again, I think someone who actually actively sits on a RRC would be the best resource on answering your question reliably.

I can tell you of some specific programs saying they intend not to apply based on their AOA Opportunities entries:
Family Medicine/Emergency Med at McLaren Oakland in Pontiac, MI
Otolaryngology in Wyoming, MI
Ophthalmology in Wyoming, MI
Dermatology in Cuyahoga Falls, OH
Ophthalmology in Las Vegas, NV
Emergency Medicine in Portsmouth, OH
Family Medicine in Portsmouth, OH
Interesting link pointing out the most common reasons of citation for withheld accreditation:
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/single-gme-accreditation-system/Pages/default.aspx
 
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Interesting that a large number of programs that are pre-accredited are specialties, particularly surgery and surgical sub specialties. Maybe more of these programs will make it than we originally thought.
 
Interesting that a large number of programs that are pre-accredited are specialties, particularly surgery and surgical sub specialties. Maybe more of these programs will make it than we originally thought.
This is largely because the programs that are 4-5 years long must gain pre-accreditation status earlier if they are to be allowed to recruit new classes in the coming 1-2 years. Your programs that are this length are often the surgical specialties.
“AOA programs that do not apply for ACGME accreditation cannot accept new trainees after July 1 of the year in which the resident can complete their training by June 30, 2020.” This means that AOA-accredited residency programs that have not entered into the ACGME accreditation process cannot accept a resident if the resident’s expected training completion date is after the AOA ceases its accreditation functions (June 30, 2020). http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/single-gme-accreditation-system/Pages/default.aspx
 
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This is largely because the programs that are 4-5 years long must gain pre-accreditation status earlier if they are to be allowed to recruit new classes in the coming 1-2 years. Your programs that are this length are often the surgical specialties.
“AOA programs that do not apply for ACGME accreditation cannot accept new trainees after July 1 of the year in which the resident can complete their training by June 30, 2020.” This means that AOA-accredited residency programs that have not entered into the ACGME accreditation process cannot accept a resident if the resident’s expected training completion date is after the AOA ceases its accreditation functions (June 30, 2020). http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/single-gme-accreditation-system/Pages/default.aspx
So do you think most if not all AOA residencies will become Acgme accredited by 2017?
 
So do you think most if not all AOA residencies will become Acgme accredited by 2017?
I personally think most or nearly all will at least have applied and be pre-accredited. Some may be working on making the necessary changes/additions to their programs to achieve substantial compliance for initial accreditation. Some may be on their 2nd or 3rd site visit, but luckily they only have to pay the accreditation application fee ONCE under the SAS transition agreement. They simply maintain pre-accreditation status and reapply when ready at no cost. I also think there will hardly be much of an AOA match come 2019 as programs will know by then whether they are going to be able to make the necessary changes to meet necessary standards -- the RRC will have told them where they are coming up short and honest programs won't continue to recruit classes they know won't be able to complete full training by the end of AOA accrediting.

The ones that already know they won't be seeking ACGME accreditation will simply finish out their residency class of 2019 or class of 2020 and that will be it.
 
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I wonder what will happen to Arrowhead neurosurgery. The program is 7 years long and they have yet to submit their accreditation application, so according to the new policy they have passed the deadline and can't accept new residents.
 
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I wonder what will happen to Arrowhead neurosurgery. The program is 7 years long and they have yet to submit their accreditation application, so according to the new policy they have passed the deadline and can't accept new residents.
Very good point. Only three programs have applied for pre-accreditation. Last year, there were 8 AOA neurosurgery programs that participated in the AOA match. This year, there are 7 programs listed among participating programs. The missing one? Doctors Hospital in Columbus. These programs matching this year would have classes finishing in June 2022; they must have been granted an exception.
 
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Very good point. Only three programs have applied for pre-accreditation. Last year, there were 8 AOA neurosurgery programs that participated in the AOA match. This year, there are 7 programs listed among participating programs. The missing one? Doctors Hospital in Columbus. These programs matching this year would have classes finishing in June 2022; they must have been granted an exception.
This compels me to think that there exists a back door policy for such well-established programs. Arrowhead is the best AOA surgical program, by far. I doubt it will ever shut down.
 
This compels me to think that there exists a back door policy for such well-established programs. Arrowhead is the best AOA surgical program, by far. I doubt it will ever shut down.


I'm somewhat inclined to believe that the ACGME is going to do whatever it takes to absorb as many positions as possible. Extra specialty positions means less that need to be de novo opened.
 
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I don't understand what the obsession with top tier residencies is; city life sucks.

If you're the type of student that would have matched Hopkins neurosurgery at an MD school, you'll still have no problem becoming a neurosurgeon as a DO even after the merger. You'll be discriminated against -- so what? Be the doctor you want, and enjoy a comparable salary with a much lower cost-of-living.
 
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