Dr. Norman Gevitz Predicts end of Osteopathic Field due to merger

[meliora27]

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[ERK123]

De

I have never heard of the university of Chicago is it really that prestigious? Was it that prestigious in the early 70s? Is its prestige tied to its PhD sociology program?

I'm also,pretty sure the book isn't an unaltered disertation so I'm not sure you should be comparing it to other disertations.

Regardless differing opinions. I thought the book made good kindling.

Also I don't think his opinion should carry much weight, especially in this day and age.

You've never heard the University of Chicago?? U.S. News has them ranked fourth in the country, higher than MIT, Penn, and Northwestern. The Academic Rankings of World Universities has them ranked 8th in the world. They are on the same level as the Harvard's and Stanford's of the world. I don't know anything about their sociology program but I would be shocked if it was not incredibly prestigious given how well respected the university is as a whole. And yes it was well respected in the 1970s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Chicago#1920s.E2.80.931980s

The book is not an unaltered dissertation, but the vast majority of the content is the same. I believe almost all of the changes are in the final chapter of the book.

 

[NurWollen]

You know how D.O. schools allow for grade replacement in undergrad?

Wonder if the acgme standards will erase that benefit?

No. How would residency standards affect medical school admissions policies?

 

[Biology4Life84]

I just figured with the "doom" speculated.....it would affect how D.O. schools select students....kinda like a domino effect.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

You've never heard the University of Chicago?? U.S. News has them ranked fourth in the country, higher than MIT, Penn, and Northwestern. The Academic Rankings of World Universities has them ranked 8th in the world. They are on the same level as the Harvard's and Stanford's of the world. I don't know anything about their sociology program but I would be shocked if it was not incredibly prestigious given how well respected the university is as a whole. And yes it was well respected in the 1970s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Chicago#1920s.E2.80.931980s

The book is not an unaltered dissertation, but the vast majority of the content is the same. I believe almost all of the changes are in the final chapter of the book.

Amazing I'd honestly never heard of it. Also interesting they are ranked 4th in us news but 53rd in forbes.

Regardless, back to the topic...not sure he's as relevant as he gets credit for.

 

[ERK123]

Amazing I'd honestly never heard of it. Also interesting they are ranked 4th in us news but 53rd in forbes.

Regardless, back to the topic...not sure he's as relevant as he gets credit for.

Forbes is a joke for everything. I am not sure his opinion matters much, but I think he should be well respected as a historian. That was the only reason I read his book.

 

[meliora27]

UChicago has more nobel laureates than almost any other institution in the world. Ever hear the Manhattan Project? Enrico Fermi?

 

[ERK123]

UChicago has more nobel laureates than almost any other institution in the world. Ever hear the Manhattan Project? Enrico Fermi?

They are also the only school that was too scared to stay in the Big Ten.

 

[NurWollen]

UChicago has more nobel laureates than almost any other institution in the world. Ever hear the Manhattan Project? Enrico Fermi?

Or Barack Obama, for that matter.

 

[NurWollen]

You've never heard the University of Chicago?? U.S. News has them ranked fourth in the country, higher than MIT, Penn, and Northwestern. The Academic Rankings of World Universities has them ranked 8th in the world. They are on the same level as the Harvard's and Stanford's of the world. I don't know anything about their sociology program but I would be shocked if it was not incredibly prestigious given how well respected the university is as a whole. And yes it was well respected in the 1970s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Chicago#1920s.E2.80.931980s

The book is not an unaltered dissertation, but the vast majority of the content is the same. I believe almost all of the changes are in the final chapter of the book.

Actually, according to the Wikipedia, their sociology program is the founder of an entire school of sociological thought.

Of course, none of this makes. Dr. Gevitz right about the merger.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Or Barack Obama, for that matter.

Who did is and what is Manhattan project speeked of?

Clearly this is what I was saying. Thanks for the education.

 

[SLC]

UChicago has more nobel laureates than almost any other institution in the world. Ever hear the Manhattan Project? Enrico Fermi?

Manhattan project? I thought we were talking about Chicago...

I'm confused....but I am a DO candidate so it's to be expected.

 

[RadsonRads]

You know how D.O. schools allow for grade replacement in undergrad?

Wonder if the acgme standards will erase that benefit?

Who cares about grade replacements besides pre-med? This literally doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Who cares about grade replacements besides pre-med? This literally doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things

Personally I think grade replacement is a beautiful thing. It is invariably cheaper than the alternatives people with low stats have handed to them. I've always been a fan of the concept of freshman forgiveness or the ability for someone to at the very least retake their first year because of the struggles inherently found within adjusting.

 

[Mehd School]

Personally I think grade replacement is a beautiful thing. It is invariably cheaper than the alternatives people with low stats have handed to them. I've always been a fan of the concept of freshman forgiveness or the ability for someone to at the very least retake their first year because of the struggles inherently found within adjusting.

I have a close friend that squeaked into and ultimately failed out of medical school. She had a ridiculous amount of retakes and ended up with a 3.4. She did pretty poor on the MCAT, but still squeaked in as I said. Without grade replacement, she was sitting at a 2.3 GPA. This is not an example of someone who should be a medical student. Having the same professor and seeing the same material 2-3 times should almost always result in an A. I unfortnately know of a few other people like this that are struggling, really bad. I think grade replacement opens itself up to the extremes such as my friend. And because of that, I think it can be dangerous.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I have a close friend that squeaked into and ultimately failed out of medical school. She had a ridiculous amount of retakes and ended up with a 3.4. She did pretty poor on the MCAT, but still squeaked in as I said. Without grade replacement, she was sitting at a 2.3 GPA. This is not an example of someone who should be a medical student. Having the same professor and seeing the same material 2-3 times should almost always result in an A. I unfortnately know of a few other people like this that are struggling, really bad. I think grade replacement opens itself up to the extremes such as my friend. And because of that, I think it can be dangerous.

True. I am admittedly think the Canadian system works best. I.e last 60 credits being the ones that matter most.

The point is though that freshman year does screw many over. I think it could have easily done it to me too.

 

[GUH]

I have a close friend that squeaked into and ultimately failed out of medical school. She had a ridiculous amount of retakes and ended up with a 3.4. She did pretty poor on the MCAT, but still squeaked in as I said. Without grade replacement, she was sitting at a 2.3 GPA. This is not an example of someone who should be a medical student. Having the same professor and seeing the same material 2-3 times should almost always result in an A. I unfortnately know of a few other people like this that are struggling, really bad. I think grade replacement opens itself up to the extremes such as my friend. And because of that, I think it can be dangerous.

There is a very prominent poster on this board who did several retakes and is a perfectly competent physician. No danger there.

 

[Mehd School]

There is a very prominent poster on this board who did several retakes and is a perfectly competent physician. No danger there.

I'm not saying it's a death sentence, only that it increases the likelihood of letting a student in that won't be a successful medical student. I have to assume that if you had a medical school full of 2.3 students, many more would fail out compared to a school full of 3.5 students. This is all I'm saying.

 

[GUH]

The DO's is not particularly biased towards osteopathic medicine, and highlights a lot of the historical weaknesses of osteopathic medical education and postgraduate training.

This is actually a good thing. I think we should be swallowed up by the LCME, all schools should become MD schools, and that osteopathy should become a focused residency.

And it's precisely because of crap like this that people like Gevitz argue that the GME acquisition is the beginning of the end for the osteopathic profession.

 

[Mad Jack]

The DO's is not particularly biased towards osteopathic medicine, and highlights a lot of the historical weaknesses of osteopathic medical education and postgraduate training.

And it's precisely because of crap like this that people like Gevitz argue that the GME acquisition is the beginning of the end for the osteopathic profession.

>90% of the people in my class would agree. Osteopathy has value, but leave it to those that are interested. There is no need for two types of medical school. Incorporate the 4 tenets into MD education and merge.

 

[s5260205]

I believe the pros outweigh the cons if all DO schools become subject to LCME accreditation standards. The worst that could happen is losing the DO distinctiveness (pros for some people!?), but if that means we could eliminate the unequal education qualities, especially during clerkships, then I am all for it. I am sometimes puzzled how some DO schools don't even have a department of internal medicine.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I have a close friend that squeaked into and ultimately failed out of medical school. She had a ridiculous amount of retakes and ended up with a 3.4. She did pretty poor on the MCAT, but still squeaked in as I said. Without grade replacement, she was sitting at a 2.3 GPA. This is not an example of someone who should be a medical student. Having the same professor and seeing the same material 2-3 times should almost always result in an A. I unfortnately know of a few other people like this that are struggling, really bad. I think grade replacement opens itself up to the extremes such as my friend. And because of that, I think it can be dangerous.

You're assuming everyone that has had a retake did it directly after they bombed the class a first time

 

[SLC]

I have a close friend that squeaked into and ultimately failed out of medical school. She had a ridiculous amount of retakes and ended up with a 3.4. She did pretty poor on the MCAT, but still squeaked in as I said. Without grade replacement, she was sitting at a 2.3 GPA. This is not an example of someone who should be a medical student. Having the same professor and seeing the same material 2-3 times should almost always result in an A. I unfortnately know of a few other people like this that are struggling, really bad. I think grade replacement opens itself up to the extremes such as my friend. And because of that, I think it can be dangerous.

I didn't use grade replacement. But I was accepted with a 2.7sGPA and a 3.1 overall. Dangerous, right?

I've since averaged in the upper 80's to low 90's in all my classes. I've never failed anything in med-school. I passed COMLEX and USMLE with good/above average scores.

Undergrad GPA isn't really all that wonderful at predicting sucess in med-school.

 

[NurWollen]

So I know one of the big fears of some in the osteopathic community was that current AOA-boarded program directors would not be able to keep their positions once ACGME accreditation is complete. It looks like the IM residency review committee has announced that AOA board certification will be acceptable to serve as an ACGME PD.

http://amorassoc.informz.net/inform...laWQ9NDExNzI5MCZzdWJzY3JpYmVyaWQ9ODE2OTgwOTQy

Dr. Juhasz, the AOA president, spoke at my school today, and he mentioned this, and also mentioned specifically that the RRC's for FM and radiology will be doing announcing the same policy soon.

He also said regarding a unified match that talks with the NRMP have begun, but that he can't put a time frame on it yet, nor give any details about how a combined match will be
structured, because such details don't yet exist. It looks like it is being worked towards, however.

 

[GUH]

So I know one of the big fears of some in the osteopathic community was that current AOA-boarded program directors would not be able to keep their positions once ACGME accreditation is complete. It looks like the IM residency review committee has announced that AOA board certification will be acceptable to serve as an ACGME PD.

http://amorassoc.informz.net/inform...laWQ9NDExNzI5MCZzdWJzY3JpYmVyaWQ9ODE2OTgwOTQy

Dr. Juhasz, the AOA president, spoke at my school today, and he mentioned this, and also mentioned specifically that the RRC's for FM and radiology will be doing announcing the same policy soon.

He also said regarding a unified match that talks with the NRMP have begun, but that he can't put a time frame on it yet, nor give any details about how a combined match will be
structured, because such details don't yet exist. It looks like it is being worked towards, however.

This is great news! Now if they will start developing a way to force PD's to consider applications from DOs as well as MDs at all allopathic programs (like they forced all osteopathic programs to consider MD's) then we'll be closer to a reasonably fair outcome.

 

[GUH]

>90% of the people in my class would agree. Osteopathy has value, but leave it to those that are interested. There is no need for two types of medical school. Incorporate the 4 tenets into MD education and merge.

Yes, a lot of people who couldn't get into an MD school feel this way.

 

[67552931811]

>90% of the people in my class would agree. Osteopathy has value, but leave it to those that are interested. There is no need for two types of medical school. Incorporate the 4 tenets into MD education and merge.

I feel like 99% of MDs would completely agree with the 4 tenants. It's basically the basis for being a good physician..

 

[Mad Jack]

Yes, a lot of people who couldn't get into an MD school feel this way.

Most of my classmates were borderline for MD admissions- a few extra ECs or a couple of extra classes could have brought them up to MD levels. A lot of us had MD-level stats but simply were geographically limited or liked my school. To the few that had truly awful stats, oh well

 

[NurWollen]

This is great news! Now if they will start developing a way to force PD's to consider applications from DOs as well as MDs at all allopathic programs (like they forced all osteopathic programs to consider MD's) then we'll be closer to a reasonably fair outcome.

I'd like to see DO seniors classified as 'US Grad' instead of 'independent applicant' on residency apps.

 

[Mehd School]

I didn't use grade replacement. But I was accepted with a 2.7sGPA and a 3.1 overall. Dangerous, right?

Nothing personally, but yes I think so. I'm not stating that anyone below a 3.X gpa is doomed for failure. You're a perfect example of someone who's destroyed medical school despite your undergraduate GPA. If you look at overall numbers, I think from a statistical perspective it is more dangerous to accept people that performed in a subpar fashion in undergrad as opposed to those who performed well. I don't think I'm saying anything novel or groundbreaking here.

 

[Goro]

Note to Dr Gevitz: the sky is not falling.

Osteopathy is not merely OMM. It's a philosophy as to how to deliver medical care. It's a doctrine, if you will. For those of you who have observed DOs and MDs and have seen how they treat patients, were there differences?

That will never go away.

Very scary read for me. I will be entering an osteopathic school next fall.


http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/hpf/pdf/bios april 2014/2014-AODME Presentation The Unintended Consequences of the ACGME Merger.pdf

 

[Jwalker]

Note to Dr Gevitz: the sky is not falling.

Osteopathy is not merely OMM. It's a philosophy as to how to deliver medical care...

Agree 100% with this. It's a shame a lot of DO students can't articulate this thought and just say we do a "massage class"

 

[hallowmann]

So I know one of the big fears of some in the osteopathic community was that current AOA-boarded program directors would not be able to keep their positions once ACGME accreditation is complete. It looks like the IM residency review committee has announced that AOA board certification will be acceptable to serve as an ACGME PD.

http://amorassoc.informz.net/inform...laWQ9NDExNzI5MCZzdWJzY3JpYmVyaWQ9ODE2OTgwOTQy

Dr. Juhasz, the AOA president, spoke at my school today, and he mentioned this, and also mentioned specifically that the RRC's for FM and radiology will be doing announcing the same policy soon.

He also said regarding a unified match that talks with the NRMP have begun, but that he can't put a time frame on it yet, nor give any details about how a combined match will be
structured, because such details don't yet exist. It looks like it is being worked towards, however.

This is great. I hope the announcements for the rest of the committees come through soon. With FM, IM, & Rads that'll cover like 1/2 of the AOA residency programs and 2/3 of the positions.

I'm sure many people are also looking forward to the Ortho, EM, OB/GYN, and Gen Surg committees to do the same. I hope they follow suit.

Nothing personally, but yes I think so. I'm not stating that anyone below a 3.X gpa is doomed for failure. You're a perfect example of someone who's destroyed medical school despite your undergraduate GPA. If you look at overall numbers, I think from a statistical perspective it is more dangerous to accept people that performed in a subpar fashion in undergrad as opposed to those who performed well. I don't think I'm saying anything novel or groundbreaking here.

GPAs vary significantly based on the school, the program, etc. A 3.5 at one school or in one program could easily be equivalent to a 2.5 in another and vice versa. If anything an MCAT score would at least be more objective a standard, but as demonstrated, there really is very little difference between doing average on it or above when we're talking ability to succeed and complete medical school. The same is true for people with GPAs equal to a 2.8 or above if I recall correctly.

 

[user3]

True. I am admittedly think the Canadian system works best. I.e last 60 credits being the ones that matter most.

The point is though that freshman year does screw many over. I think it could have easily done it to me too.

I think Mehd school's post is more indicative of the current state of relatively low admission standards and less so of issues with grade replacement.

Without grade replacement, many potential applicants would be deep in a hole that even a strong postbac may never get them out of. In the case of leaving or graduating college with a terrible GPA, grade replacement may be one's only hope of ever having a chance again. I feel eliminating it would permenantly disenfranchise many promising candidates.

 

[Stlblues17]

Note to Dr Gevitz: the sky is not falling.

Osteopathy is not merely OMM. It's a philosophy as to how to deliver medical care. It's a doctrine, if you will. For those of you who have observed DOs and MDs and have seen how they treat patients, were there differences?

That will never go away.

I work with many MDs and DOs. In regards to treatments/tests/etc, there is absolutely no difference, for the most part (if you look at Pt Orders). Where I notice the difference is in the interaction, building rapport, with patients. On average, I notice our DOs spend more time consulting patients (patient education, getting them on board for their plan of care going forward).

I know this is my n=1 experience, but these docs are part of the reason I decided to apply DO in the first place. I can't comment on OMM, as I have no experience with it yet, but the philosophy is why I am starting DO in the fall.

 

[ERK123]

I work with many MDs and DOs. In regards to treatments/tests/etc, there is absolutely no difference, for the most part (if you look at Pt Orders). Where I notice the difference is in the interaction, building rapport, with patients. On average, I notice our DOs spend more time consulting patients (patient education, getting them on board for their plan of care going forward).

I know this is my n=1 experience, but these docs are part of the reason I decided to apply DO in the first place. I can't comment on OMM, as I have no experience with it yet, but the philosophy is why I am starting DO in the fall.

I have had the same experience.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Note to Dr Gevitz: the sky is not falling.

Osteopathy is not merely OMM. It's a philosophy as to how to deliver medical care. It's a doctrine, if you will. For those of you who have observed DOs and MDs and have seen how they treat patients, were there differences?

That will never go away.

Lol you can't possibly believe this.

People need to stop this BS and accept the DO degree is nothing special. It's just another way to a medical license. There's no amount of schooling that will change who you are deep inside. Many MDs are more "Osteopathic" than DOs, which is why it's time to end this BS and have all medical graduates get the same degree.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I think Mehd school's post is more indicative of the current state of relatively low admission standards and less so of issues with grade replacement.

Without grade replacement, many potential applicants would be deep in a hole that even a strong postbac may never get them out of. In the case of leaving or graduating college with a terrible GPA, grade replacement may be one's only hope of ever having a chance again. I feel eliminating it would permenantly disenfranchise many promising candidates.

I think I only got one class replaced, maybe two, but I agree. Grade replacement should continue to exist. It brings a different type of person to the table, and in medicine we need many different types.

 

[ERK123]

The AMA attempted for many years to absorb the osteopathic profession into MD's. They failed to do so when the field was small, and only walked away with UC Irvine. I wonder what the prospects are for amalgamation now that there are so many osteopathic medical schools and the AMA has only a fraction of its former influence on the medical profession (at least according to membership statistics).

As of now I would prefer that there is no merger, but if DO's keep opening up schools like RMV and other for-profit entities I will quickly change my stance. The rapid expansion of osteopathic medical schools greatly concerns me and screams of profiteering.

 

[hallowmann]

The AMA attempted for many years to absorb the osteopathic profession into MD's. They failed to do so when the field was small, and only walked away with UC Irvine. I wonder what the prospects are for amalgamation now that there are so many osteopathic medical schools and the AMA has only a fraction of its former influence on the medical profession (at least according to membership statistics).

As of now I would prefer that there is no merger, but if DO's keep opening up schools like RMV and other for-profit entities I will quickly change my stance. The rapid expansion of osteopathic medical schools greatly concerns me and screams of profiteering.

To be fair, they walked away with a bit more than just UCI. They also took like half the osteopathic residencies and a bunch of hospitals with them.

The current merger is not the same thing as what happened in CA. Unlike then, DOs don't need to renounce all their OMM and osteopathic principles to fit in. If anything the ACGME has welcomed them into new osteopathic focused residency committees.

This is more akin to a takeover of GME in order to have greater sway and standardization in physician training. It may not be an even 50/50 split, but considering DOs represent only 10% of practicing physician, DO graduates represent only 20-25% of AMGs, and that DOs in residency represent only 15-20% of all residents, I'd say a 28% stake in the ACGME is pretty good.

I personally don't think the takeover of schools is necessary (nor do I think it'll happen anytime soon). Things are already moving in the right direction. The degree doesn't need to disappear for unity to happen (just look at DDS and DMD). And if anything our "principles" are actually being adopted by MDs, so there should be no fear of losing our "distinctiveness".

 

[Solais]

Keep up your basic OMM skills for 2 reasons (I ignore most aspects of cranial): a lot of the basic ME techs and what not I find helps out quite a bit for people and secondly quick easy money maker in practice. I know of a doc that increased his OMM usage and cut his hours to almost make up for the difference.

 

[Goro]

Yes, I believe it and that's why my wife and I have a DO as our family doctor.

Lol you can't possibly believe this.

People need to stop this BS and accept the DO degree is nothing special. It's just another way to a medical license. There's no amount of schooling that will change who you are deep inside. Many MDs are more "Osteopathic" than DOs, which is why it's time to end this BS and have all medical graduates get the same degree.

 

[ERK123]

To be fair, they walked away with a bit more than just UCI. They also took like half the osteopathic residencies and a bunch of hospitals with them.

The current merger is not the same thing as what happened in CA. Unlike then, DOs don't need to renounce all their OMM and osteopathic principles to fit in. If anything the ACGME has welcomed them into new osteopathic focused residency committees.

This is more akin to a takeover of GME in order to have greater sway and standardization in physician training. It may not be an even 50/50 split, but considering DOs represent only 10% of practicing physician, DO graduates represent only 20-25% of AMGs, and that DOs in residency represent only 15-20% of all residents, I'd say a 28% stake in the ACGME is pretty good.

I personally don't think the takeover of schools is necessary (nor do I think it'll happen anytime soon). Things are already moving in the right direction. The degree doesn't need to disappear for unity to happen (just look at DDS and DMD). And if anything our "principles" are actually being adopted by MDs, so there should be no fear of losing our "distinctiveness".

100% Agree. My biggest issue with the idea of distinctiveness is the stance that the proliferation of osteopathic values to the rest of medicine would jepardize DO distinctiveness. These are values that mark a good physician and therefore DO's should be haply to see things like integrative medicine and complementary care expand throughout the MD world. DO's have never had a manopoly on this philosophy of care, but it is certainly central to the DO dogma. DO's should champion its proliferation and not act as though the convergence of DO and MD is in anyway challenging the distinctiveness of the field.

 

[Mehd School]

For those of you who have observed DOs and MDs and have seen how they treat patients, were there differences?

Not really, but that answer would probably change on interview day.

 

[Goro]

Well, I have. The proverbial "we look at the whole patient" is not a cliche.

Not really, but that answer would probably change on interview day.

 

[Mehd School]

Well, I have. The proverbial "we look at the whole patient" is not a cliche.

I know, but I don't think that's a "DO" thing as much as it is a "Physician" thing. Very close friends of mine at allopathic institutions are receiving the exact same information I am outside of the back rubs.

 

[keevwu]

I know, but I don't think that's a "DO" thing as much as it is a "Physician" thing. Very close friends of mine at allopathic institutions are receiving the exact same information I am outside of the back rubs.

I have also interviewed at some MD schools with principles so similar to osteopathic principles that I had to make sure it was really an MD school (ex: Quinnipiac). Key words: hollistic, whole, interconnected. They even have DOs in their faculty to bring their mentality into the institution. It could just be that MD schools are beginning to take on osteopathic principles. In any case, I also believe that the distinction is becoming more and more vague.

 

[icevermin]

[deleted]

 

[ERK123]

Look the fact is the AOA is a failing organization. Gevitz is correct when he predicts membership numbers for the AOA will continue to fall. It's their pathetic policy of sitting on their butts that lead to this happening. Why are there crap residencies? Because the people in charge let that happen. Why are there hardly any DO fellowships? Same answer. Why are DO schools linked entirely to volunteer faculty and no brand name teaching institutions? Because the AOA let it happen.

I'm not a fan of the AOA. I'm a fan of being a physician and being a damn good physician, DO or MD. If ensuring I get access to better facilities means becoming a part of the AMA because the AOA is doing nothing to make it a reality, so be it.

I'm pretty sure that there is a way higher percentage of DO's in the AOA than MD's and DO's in the AMA. AMA membership has been falling for decades. It is under 15% of physicians.

 

[GUH]

Look the fact is the AOA is a failing organization. Gevitz is correct when he predicts membership numbers for the AOA will continue to fall. It's their pathetic policy of sitting on their butts that lead to this happening. Why are there crap residencies? Because the people in charge let that happen. Why are there hardly any DO fellowships? Same answer. Why are DO schools linked entirely to volunteer faculty and no brand name teaching institutions? Because the AOA let it happen.

I'm not a fan of the AOA. I'm a fan of being a physician and being a damn good physician, DO or MD. If ensuring I get access to better facilities means becoming a part of the AMA because the AOA is doing nothing to make it a reality, so be it.

haha being a member of the AMA gets you better training? Oh I'd love to hear your explanation of that statement.