early rank list discussion

[patriot6]

Hi all,

Long time lurker; thanks for everything. If it's not too much trouble, I was hoping to get some insight into ranking these programs. Any opinions?

UAB
Wake
UNC
MGH
Brigham
Stanford
WashU
Mayo Rochester
Michigan
Baylor

Thanks!

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[Ronin786]

Those are all such good programs you're going to have a difficult time separating them. IMO Wake, UAB, UNC, Michigan and Baylor are probably a notch below the rest when it comes to name recognition. Cant go wrong with any of them though.

 

[Psai]

You should visit the programs, gather your thoughts on their strengths and weaknesses and see if they fit you. I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. If you're looking for an arbitrary ranking system, you can use doximity. I would probably pick Stanford

 

[saywhaaaaa]

why not just post your invite list and say "wow look at these impressive programs that want to interview me" instead of trying to pass it off as asking for help with rankings in early November?

 

[woo]

Dont hate the player, hate the game. Sorry if you weren't lucky enough to get invite at programs, but i am sure he/she is looking for some advice. Great list, but very far apart, i'm sure its a nightmare to coordinate flights and stuff...

Can't comment on most of those, as it is early in interview season but.

UAB: Loved the program. People are cool, benefits are probably best in the country in terms of moonlighting. PD really nice. Birmingham is okay, just okay.

Wake: Similar to UAB, very nice people, good case load, great teaching. Winston-salem: Hope your married just cuz....

thats it.

 

[saywhaaaaa]

nah, i'm hating the player here. it's just such a blatant "look at me" post at this point in the game. if the same thing is posted in january after op, in particular, and others have interviewed at all or majority of programs on this list and actually have legitimate comparative input to provide at a time during which op is actually constructing a rank list, that's a totally different animal. in early november, it's just lame to throw up a brag post and not claim it as such. oh, and i was "lucky" enough to get invitations from great programs, including many on that list.

edit: i'm not "hating" anyone. just thought i'd call a spade a spade. seriously great list, op. i have a feeling you'll find the place that feels right when you interview. but, as others said, can't go wrong on that list as far as i know.

 

[patriot6]

Hm, maybe I misspoke. Yes, it's too early to be giving serious consideration to a rank list. But I don't believe it's too early to ask fellow applicants their opinions on the programs that interest me.

Thanks woo.

Hope you feel better saywha.

 

[saywhaaaaa]

Hm, maybe I misspoke. Yes, it's too early to be giving serious consideration to a rank list. But I don't believe it's too early to ask fellow applicants their opinions on the programs that interest me.

Thanks woo.

Hope you feel better saywha.

Fair enough. Sorry for being an a$$.

 

[Mman]

Hm, maybe I misspoke. Yes, it's too early to be giving serious consideration to a rank list. But I don't believe it's too early to ask fellow applicants their opinions on the programs that interest me.

Thanks woo.

Hope you feel better saywha.

As someone who once went through this process, I would put almost no stock in what anybody else tells you they think of a program. I would put a lot of stock in how you feel during interviews and how you like the city it is in. At those sort of programs, how good of an anesthesiologist you will be depends on you, not them. What you really want to determine is where you would feel most comfortable living and working for 4 years. Use interviews to figure out where you would be most comfortable. Residency kinda sucks at times. You really don't want to be somewhere that you hate living or that you don't get along with the people there.

 

[floridaboy18]

Agree with Mman for the most part. People all have their different versions of "top tier." Do you mean top tier clinically? Do you meant top tier research wise? Combination of both?

I always laugh when people say things like Ronin786 ("Wake is a step below in terms of name recognition").... Wake has ZERO problems in name recognition in anesthesia. More than 12 chairs have come from our program. Current editor and chief of Anesthesiology who just won the biggest award at the ASA and was elected to the Institute of Medicine. Oh, and we won the biggest service award at the ASA, too. On top of that, I can assure you that the clinical training you get at Wake is just as good or better than every program on that list. There's a reason we match as highly as we do, and it's not because people love Winston (though, I honestly do love Winston and find it a great place to train and live and plan on becoming faculty after fellowship)...

If you want a spectacular research experience with a broad based research infrastructure, better can be found at other programs (MGH, Stanford, Brigham, Mayo, etc)... but clinical training at Wake is pretty much second to none. We come out with high acuity, sick patients like any of the top programs. 200-300 blocks, 300 + epidurals including a bunch of thoracic epidurals, 50 + awake fiberoptic intubations, countless more asleep fiberoptic intubations, great peds experiences with a proven track record to match you where you want to go, strong CT experience where fellows don't steal the tough cases because they are doing a boatload of echos (don't sit cases), top 5 pain fellowship, and a neuroanesthesia teaching service that is unparalleled and led by our program director (we aren't even allowed to use Mac or Miller on this rotations, but do we do use a ridiculous amount of lightwands, intubating LMAs, fiberoptic intubations, boullards, retrograde wires, digital intubations, and any other technique you might need in a dire circumstance someday). This is all on top of a structured didactic system (relieved at 3pm to attend lectures daily, though we only have lectures twice per week) that prevents failure.

Oh, and our research infrastructure is improving, too.

 

[patriot6]

Agree with Mman for the most part. People all have their different versions of "top tier." Do you mean top tier clinically? Do you meant top tier research wise? Combination of both?

I always laugh when people say things like Ronin786 ("Wake is a step below in terms of name recognition").... Wake has ZERO problems in name recognition in anesthesia. More than 12 chairs have come from our program. Current editor and chief of Anesthesiology who just won the biggest award at the ASA and was elected to the Institute of Medicine. Oh, and we won the biggest service award at the ASA, too. On top of that, I can assure you that the clinical training you get at Wake is just as good or better than every program on that list. There's a reason we match as highly as we do, and it's not because people love Winston (though, I honestly do love Winston and find it a great place to train and live and plan on becoming faculty after fellowship)...

If you want a spectacular research experience with a broad based research infrastructure, better can be found at other programs (MGH, Stanford, Brigham, Mayo, etc)... but clinical training at Wake is pretty much second to none. We come out with high acuity, sick patients like any of the top programs. 200-300 blocks, 300 + epidurals including a bunch of thoracic epidurals, 50 + awake fiberoptic intubations, countless more asleep fiberoptic intubations, great peds experiences with a proven track record to match you where you want to go, strong CT experience where fellows don't steal the tough cases because they are doing a boatload of echos (don't sit cases), top 5 pain fellowship, and a neuroanesthesia teaching service that is unparalleled and led by our program director (we aren't even allowed to use Mac or Miller on this rotations, but do we do use a ridiculous amount of lightwands, intubating LMAs, fiberoptic intubations, boullards, retrograde wires, digital intubations, and any other technique you might need in a dire circumstance someday). This is all on top of a structured didactic system (relieved at 3pm to attend lectures daily, though we only have lectures twice per week) that prevents failure.

Oh, and our research infrastructure is improving, too.

Thanks floridaboy. Your post is really helpful. I just interviewed there and loved it; would you mind if I PM'ed you?

 

[Mman]

I always laugh when people say things like Ronin786 ("Wake is a step below in terms of name recognition").... Wake has ZERO problems in name recognition in anesthesia. More than 12 chairs have come from our program. Current editor and chief of Anesthesiology who just won the biggest award at the ASA and was elected to the Institute of Medicine. Oh, and we won the biggest service award at the ASA, too. On top of that, I can assure you that the clinical training you get at Wake is just as good or better than every program on that list. There's a reason we match as highly as we do, and it's not because people love Winston (though, I honestly do love Winston and find it a great place to train and live and plan on becoming faculty after fellowship)...

If you want a spectacular research experience with a broad based research infrastructure, better can be found at other programs (MGH, Stanford, Brigham, Mayo, etc)... but clinical training at Wake is pretty much second to none. We come out with high acuity, sick patients like any of the top programs. 200-300 blocks, 300 + epidurals including a bunch of thoracic epidurals, 50 + awake fiberoptic intubations, countless more asleep fiberoptic intubations, great peds experiences with a proven track record to match you where you want to go, strong CT experience where fellows don't steal the tough cases because they are doing a boatload of echos (don't sit cases), top 5 pain fellowship, and a neuroanesthesia teaching service that is unparalleled and led by our program director (we aren't even allowed to use Mac or Miller on this rotations, but do we do use a ridiculous amount of lightwands, intubating LMAs, fiberoptic intubations, boullards, retrograde wires, digital intubations, and any other technique you might need in a dire circumstance someday). This is all on top of a structured didactic system (relieved at 3pm to attend lectures daily, though we only have lectures twice per week) that prevents failure.

Oh, and our research infrastructure is improving, too.

agree with you for the most part and I think people at Wake get good training, but I can't agree that it is "pretty much second to none" and "the clinical training is as good or better than...". Why don't I agree with that? Because you don't know unless you've trained at all those places. People can love their residency program and swear up and down it's the greatest ever, but unless they've trained at all of the programs they can't make the comparison.

It's both possible to get great training in a place and have it be slightly less great than somewhere else.

 

[Newyorkgiants]

.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

we do use a ridiculous amount of lightwands, intubating LMAs, fiberoptic intubations, boullards, retrograde wires

 

[Psai]

agree with you for the most part and I think people at Wake get good training, but I can't agree that it is "pretty much second to none" and "the clinical training is as good or better than...". Why don't I agree with that? Because you don't know unless you've trained at all those places. People can love their residency program and swear up and down it's the greatest ever, but unless they've trained at all of the programs they can't make the comparison.

It's both possible to get great training in a place and have it be slightly less great than somewhere else.

I've been searching for threads that talk about different schools and pretty much everyone who talks about their program say "our program is as good or better than" and "pretty much second to none"

 

[floridaboy18]

Thanks floridaboy. Your post is really helpful. I just interviewed there and loved it; would you mind if I PM'ed you?

Feel free!

 

[floridaboy18]

Okay, NOT a ton of retrograde wires but pretty much everything else ;-) but we do retrograde wires and have experience with them because we do peripheral blocks on awake fiberoptics. If we are sticking a needle through the trachea, some of our attendings don't mind us throwing a wire to get the experience.

 

[floridaboy18]

agree with you for the most part and I think people at Wake get good training, but I can't agree that it is "pretty much second to none" and "the clinical training is as good or better than...". Why don't I agree with that? Because you don't know unless you've trained at all those places. People can love their residency program and swear up and down it's the greatest ever, but unless they've trained at all of the programs they can't make the comparison.

It's both possible to get great training in a place and have it be slightly less great than somewhere else.

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. Numbers don't lie. If Ronin's opinion were backed in anything found in fact, statistics, or reality I would not have spouted off. You think most residencies get those sort of numbers in terms of procedures or airway experience while still allowing you time to get out for didactics, education, and life? There are studies on how many of a certain procedure you need to do to be proficient or to master a procedure... and a lot of programs simply don't get there despite making the ACGME requirements (40 epidurals, 40 blocks, etc).

An example, you ask....Come see an awake fiberoptic at Wake. No one else in the country does it the way we do it. Classic approach off the hyoid? Sure can do it that way...but there is a decent failure rate with that as well. Why does no one else do it the way we do it (which is not the classic walk off the hyoid)? Because it was created at Wake by our faculty. Nebulizing/Topicalizing takes 30 minutes...I can do it in 5, which is directly due to the solid training I have received. We also get great supervisory experience and never sit a case while on CA-3 call for the sole purpose of learning to supervise and handle emergencies despite it costing the hospital money to put a CRNA in a room that we could be paid 1/3 of the cost to sit. Education is valued here.

I do love my residency. And I will defend it because of that. But the point of my rant started because Ronin said Wake is not in the top tier in terms of "name recognition". That is false advertising for medical students looking for honest advice and it is also misleading. If you attended the ASA this year you'd know that. If you talked to chairs at other departments you'd know that. If you separated name recognition in other specialties from Anesthesia, you'd also see that. Name recognition in anesthesia is not the same as "general name recognition." I am also of the blatantly and brutally honest variety (if you can't tell yet by my passionate novel of a rant)...if we weren't good at something I'd be happy to announce that to the world, which is why I didn't glow about our research infrastructure which has room for improvement despite the good research that comes out of Wake. It simply requires more leg work on the investigators part here.

And while residency may be an experience that is uniquely yours to experience and defend, practice after residency is not. Time and again our residents are told after training that they are beyond well prepared for the reasons I mentioned above and come out impressing just about everyone. Ironically, Michigan is of the same variety from what I hear and Ronin through both Wake and Michigan into a "not top tier" reputation pile in anesthesia circles, which is laughable. Talk to people at your program and ask them if they have worked with a Wake grad and see what they say...you can make your own decisions.

Also, when other programs talk about their clinical training, I am not insane in terms of thinking that there aren't other great clinical training programs. I know better. I am just saying that if you wanted to find a better clinical training program you are going to be VERY hard pressed to find one. The reputation in anesthesia more than carries, and honestly I don't need you to believe me for that to be true.

Also, its a huge lie to say "you'll get pretty much the same training no matter where you go...just go somewhere you'll be happy." Happiness is very important, but the clinical training is not the same everywhere. Getting trained by a national chess champion or your local chess club will teach you vastly different things, but you'll still be "playing chess. So who cares, right? We believe this lie going through the interview process because it makes us feel better, not because it's true. Every program has strengths and weaknesses. If you don't know them or haven't found them, then you haven't searched hard enough.

::End Rant::

 

[Ronin786]

Read my post again. I said in my opinion, those names aren't like the rest. You disagreeing is your opinion, just take that giant chip off your shoulder.

 

[floridaboy18]

Read my post again. I said in my opinion, those names aren't like the rest. You disagreeing is your opinion, just take that giant chip off your shoulder.

No chip, just clarifying for the med student asking for help with their rank list.

P.S. Why is that your opinion, then? Or is it simply a "you like chocolate, I like vanilla" sort of opinion?

 

[Ronin786]

No chip, just clarifying for the med student asking for help with their rank list.

P.S. Why is that your opinion, then? Or is it simply a "you like chocolate, I like vanilla" sort of opinion?

It has to do with what I've read over the years on these forums as well as a general sense I've gotten from talking to people. Again, I think all the programs the OP listed are top notch programs, probably some of the best out there. I know Wake's regional and OB aspects are extremely good. Just in my humble opinion, the other programs offer more "brand" recognition.

 

[wakeprobs]

Wake is having financial problems, FYI. Not sure I'd take the risk. Do your own DD.

 

[patriot6]

Wake is having financial problems, FYI. Not sure I'd take the risk. Do your own DD.

hmmm, that's all we get?

 

[floridaboy18]

Wake is having financial problems, FYI. Not sure I'd take the risk. Do your own DD.

This is a lie. Wake has been in the black for the last two years following the recession that hit everyone hard. Our faculty incentives, bonuses, and pay are increasing...

Pretty sure this one was just to get under the skin, but thought I'd put this to bed (see below) given that someone wanted to create a new account simply to strike a nerve for fun

Directly from an email sent out yesterday regarding Wake's financial situation this year: "Total Net Revenues increased 10.4% over the prior year to $567.2 million. Patient revenues improved 12.6% over the same period last year due to growth in inpatient admissions, surgical cases, ED visits and outpatient growth."

 

[Mman]

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. Numbers don't lie. If Ronin's opinion were backed in anything found in fact, statistics, or reality I would not have spouted off. You think most residencies get those sort of numbers in terms of procedures or airway experience while still allowing you time to get out for didactics, education, and life? There are studies on how many of a certain procedure you need to do to be proficient or to master a procedure... and a lot of programs simply don't get there despite making the ACGME requirements (40 epidurals, 40 blocks, etc).

An example, you ask....Come see an awake fiberoptic at Wake. No one else in the country does it the way we do it. Classic approach off the hyoid? Sure can do it that way...but there is a decent failure rate with that as well. Why does no one else do it the way we do it (which is not the classic walk off the hyoid)? Because it was created at Wake by our faculty. Nebulizing/Topicalizing takes 30 minutes...I can do it in 5, which is directly due to the solid training I have received. We also get great supervisory experience and never sit a case while on CA-3 call for the sole purpose of learning to supervise and handle emergencies despite it costing the hospital money to put a CRNA in a room that we could be paid 1/3 of the cost to sit. Education is valued here.

I do love my residency. And I will defend it because of that. But the point of my rant started because Ronin said Wake is not in the top tier in terms of "name recognition". That is false advertising for medical students looking for honest advice and it is also misleading. If you attended the ASA this year you'd know that. If you talked to chairs at other departments you'd know that. If you separated name recognition in other specialties from Anesthesia, you'd also see that. Name recognition in anesthesia is not the same as "general name recognition." I am also of the blatantly and brutally honest variety (if you can't tell yet by my passionate novel of a rant)...if we weren't good at something I'd be happy to announce that to the world, which is why I didn't glow about our research infrastructure which has room for improvement despite the good research that comes out of Wake. It simply requires more leg work on the investigators part here.

And while residency may be an experience that is uniquely yours to experience and defend, practice after residency is not. Time and again our residents are told after training that they are beyond well prepared for the reasons I mentioned above and come out impressing just about everyone. Ironically, Michigan is of the same variety from what I hear and Ronin through both Wake and Michigan into a "not top tier" reputation pile in anesthesia circles, which is laughable. Talk to people at your program and ask them if they have worked with a Wake grad and see what they say...you can make your own decisions.

Also, when other programs talk about their clinical training, I am not insane in terms of thinking that there aren't other great clinical training programs. I know better. I am just saying that if you wanted to find a better clinical training program you are going to be VERY hard pressed to find one. The reputation in anesthesia more than carries, and honestly I don't need you to believe me for that to be true.

Also, its a huge lie to say "you'll get pretty much the same training no matter where you go...just go somewhere you'll be happy." Happiness is very important, but the clinical training is not the same everywhere. Getting trained by a national chess champion or your local chess club will teach you vastly different things, but you'll still be "playing chess. So who cares, right? We believe this lie going through the interview process because it makes us feel better, not because it's true. Every program has strengths and weaknesses. If you don't know them or haven't found them, then you haven't searched hard enough.

::End Rant::

Sorry, your rant is still incorrect. You don't know what everyone else does and what everyone else gets. You haven't been to those places. There are anecdotal tales of everything from everywhere, but nobody can compare their residency to all the others. Not possible. I also am not sure what you are quoting with the thought you will get the same training everywhere since I never said or implied that. My only idea is that no one person can claim their residency training is as good or better than everywhere else. Can't be done with a straight face since you haven't gone to all those programs.

I have nothing but good things to say about Wake. I've worked with people that trained there and I've interviewed people for a job from there. There are still other programs I think more highly of, though. That isn't a knock on Wake, just an acknowledgement of what I have seen. You get good training at Wake, but I don't think it's the best out there. That's just me. I loved my own residency and it is in every top 5/10 list you can find, but I still wouldn't claim it's the best.

(and while I'm proud you can topicalize an airway in 5 minutes that's an academic sort of thing, in the real world it better not take longer than about 2 minutes or you are doing something wrong)


Moral of story, Wake Forest gives you good clinical training and prepares you well for life as a fellow or attending. No more, no less.

 

[B-Bone]

I trained at a "big name" institution that I consider having "second to none" training, but I also did two away rotations during residency, one of them at WFU. As a CA-3 already done with all my main rotations, I felt pretty qualified to judge Wake's program. I found it to be excellent. Their residents were very smart and capable. The faculty did a lot of teaching. There seemed to be lots of research happening. I was definitely impressed. I feel I would have gotten great training there as a "full time" resident, and I learned a lot during my month there. Since no one else here appears to have rotated at more than one program as a resident, I deem myself most qualified to judge Wake "great". And I just did.

As an aside, the other program I rotated at (outside of my own) was not great. It's pretty easy to tell good from bad with a little perspective.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Wake is an excellent program and I like the area. But, is Wake really BETTER than MGH, Stanford, WashU or UAB? probably not. That said, if you "gel" at Wake or WashU by all means rank them highly.

Wake has very good stats on the type of Med Student matching at their program. This "pre-screening" process improves the odds the residents will be smarter than average vs the typical Resident. IMHO, a high tier of Residents leads to better faculty which results in a solid program. The reverse scenario of better faculty leading to higher tiered Residents only works if the institution is dedicated to Anesthesiology and has the resources/funds to support the high powered faculty.

Many, if not most, of the top 1/3 of Residency programs will provide you with a solid educational experience. More importantly, the program will instill in you the attitude to learn new techniques on your own or from other colleagues. These programs teach critical thinking skills which in the end is the mainstay of the profession.

 

[pim89]

Which programs are considered top 1/3? I haven't been able to find a recent list in this forum.

 

[MJ978]

Which programs are considered top 1/3? I haven't been able to find a recent list in this forum.

Oh damn, here we go...

 

[pim89]

Oops Not trying to start a debate. I just found the top 1/3 programs remark to be a rather bold statement. I'll check out the older threads

 

[hrmm]

Which programs are considered top 1/3? I haven't been able to find a recent list in this forum.

No real list has really been compiled systematically until recently. Although it has its flaws, I find that this list from Doximity is pretty good and I would say for the most part, it covers the "big names" correctly. Wake is 20th, right below UAB. I'm sure it is a great program no doubt, but I think everyone (except maybe floridaboy18), can agree that it will never be able to contend with the likes of an MGH. I would also argue that within the top 5, there is very little that sets one apart from the other.

1. MGH
2. UCSF
3. Brigham & Women's (BWH)
4. Stanford
5. Hopkins
6. Duke
7. UPenn
8. Columbia
9. Mayo
10. WashU

https://residency.doximity.com/programs?residency_specialty_id=40&sort_by=reputation (note that this was listed based on reputation)

 

[Nivens]

There are so many intangibles that go into this discussion; even if you could remove everyone's ego completely the debate would still rage on until long after robots have replaced us AND the surgeons. However, as a new trainee at one of those top 5 institutions above, who also happened to attend a "middle tier" medical school with a "middle tier" anesthesiology program, I would like to comment on one difference I see between the two programs that I attribute largely to "tier": the people. I suspect every training program has at least one or two 'guru' or god-like figures that are heads and shoulders above everybody else in clinical skills, teaching ability and interest, personality. The whole package. I interviewed at Wake, and felt even from the interview that the program director fit that mold. We had a few at University of Miami as well: not household names by any stretch, but incredible doctors and people all.

But where I am now those people are everywhere. Now I am not saying everyone here is amazing, or even palatable: I've already worked with a few anesthesia attendings I hope to avoid for a long while, but it seems like everyone I meet in any and every specialty and training level is doing or has done something incredible and inspiring. My first year cardiology fellow, within 4 years of undergad, 4 years of medical school, a 1 year MPH, and 3 years of residency, has over 150 publications. Oh, and he also somehow manages to be an awesome teacher and great guy to hang out with on weekend call. I feel like I'm surrounded by people like him, not just academics with huge CVs, but engineers, and business people, and policy-makers, and they inspire me to elevate my game. I feel challenged, and I like that.

Like I said, I'm sure many programs have incredible people walking the halls, but it's the concentration here that's impressed me the most. I have no doubt I would have emerged from most of the places on my rank list a skilled clinician capable of handling just about anything thrown at me, but there is more to a career in medicine than being able to topicalize an airway in less than 5 minutes.

 

[Gern Blansten]

A few things to note:
-The doximity list is complete garbage and the Society of Academic Anesthesiology Associations tried to kill that list by asking doximity to not pursue it, because it is impossible to make an accurate list. While it is true that those listed are solid programs, there is no way to really rank the programs because each one has its own strengths and weaknesses. People looking for great training programs will all have different things that they want to get out of that training program. Just because one has the most NIH funding, there is little chance that this will impact a resident's day to day experiences. Reputation can be important, but it is not the only important factor.
-Wake Forest, IMHO, is one of the best programs in the country and does not need defending. To say it is the best is simply impossible to determine for the reasons stated above. Your adamant defense of the program is not needed and, in all likelihood, is having the opposite effect.
-At least one of the top 10 listed departments, I have a very low opinion of based on a couple of miserable people who are faculty there and my experiences and discussions with two of their recent grads. They came out of training with a significantly diminished experienced in multiple key areas compared to grads from the programs in my region of the country, none of which are ever mentioned on the top tier list.
-I think UAB is the sleeper pick in the original list. Great program limited only by people who may not want to live in Birmingham. Great reputation for producing well trained anesthesiologists. FTR, I have no affiliation with either Wake or UAB.

 

[FollowTheMoney]

Anesthesia is the same everywhere and in the real world no one cares where you went as long as you are competent. Just pick somewhere to you want to live for 4 years. Period. The End.

 

[teeva]

Agree with the above. Pick a place you want to live for residency and perhaps for the rest of your life. Saves the trouble of having to move. Moving, packing up your stuff, renting a truck is a bigger deal and hassle than deciding if you're in a #1 or #20 program.

The real world will still think sh1t of your program no matter how big a name it is if you suck. And sucking doesn't mean taking 10 mins to do an airway block vs 5 mins. Rather, it's cancelling cases for stupid reasons and forcing your colleagues to do them. Wanting echos on marathon runners. Whining. Signing out at 3pm instead of staying an extra 15 min to extubate and finish the case. There are great clinicians everywhere and terrible clinicians at even top places. We've all had the displeasure of meeting and working under them. All over this forum there are mentions, subtle or outright, of people from certain programs that are dysfunctional. I've met some. I can't tell if it's just them that suck or their whole program. But they're from big names.

Think practically. Up until you finish and work in the real world, you've spent 8-12 years worrying about rankings and grades and meaningless metrics and believe that that's all that matters. That's all you're trained to know. Any of the non-nameless programs will have the potential to train you well enough. Whether you get board certified or not is on you. Whether you can keep a job and not be a joke wherever you work is on you.

P.S. I work to live and have a nice life. If you want to live to work and still believe in the romantic notion of the noble pursuit of medicine and saving the world 1-4 intubation(s) or regional block or AFOI at a time, ignore my post. Go to Harvard or Stanford and stay forever in that ivory tower and academic career.

 

[Nivens]

Think practically. Up until you finish and work in the real world, you've spent 8-12 years worrying about rankings and grades and meaningless metrics and believe that that's all that matters. That's all you're trained to know. Any of the non-nameless programs will have the potential to train you well enough. Whether you get board certified or not is on you. Whether you can keep a job and not be a joke wherever you work is on you.

100% agree with ^^^, but take issue with:

P.S. I work to live and have a nice life. If you want to live to work and still believe in the romantic notion of the noble pursuit of medicine and saving the world 1-4 intubation(s) or regional block or AFOI at a time, ignore my post. Go to Harvard or Stanford and stay forever in that ivory tower and academic career.

You can train at Harvard or Stanford (or aspire to train at either place) and "work to live". Wearing a Stanford jacket doesn't automatically make you an egghead academic drone who lives to work for the foolish notion of "the noble pursuit of medicine". You can get amazing "real-world" training in the ivory tower and have incredible "real world" doors opened up for you because of the reputation of your program. Let's not minimize the accomplishments and hard work of our colleagues or discourage those who dream of following in their footsteps.

 

[Gern Blansten]

I think that everyone knows an idiot that trained at an "ivory tower" program and everyone knows a brilliant person who trained at a "no name" program. There is no question that if you wish to move across the country for a job or a fellowship, name recognition of the program can have some significant impact, but I would agree that it is not as big an advantage as some make it out to be. The even more important factor is who you know that is already working in the particular group you wish to join (ie, someone who knows you from residency or a previous job who is willing to vouch for you) because the best jobs are never advertised. The further you get out from residency, the less it matters where you trained, IMHO. If you want an academic job, however, I think it probably matters a bit more.

 

[teeva]

Sorry, I shouldn't have generalized, it was a rant. There are ivory tower individuals who awful but never let you forget where they come from. Please don't be like that, but if you do please stay in your tower.

 

[RockYourRonium]

Having a hard time deciding on these programs. They all seem great! Can you offer some input?
UTMB
UTSW
Baylor
UT Houston
Case Western - UH
Cleveland Clinic
Cincinnati
Indiana
Vanderbilt
UAB
Emory

 

[Psai]

Utsw, baylor, uab are great programs

 

[bashwell]

Having a hard time deciding on these programs. They all seem great! Can you offer some input?
UTMB
UTSW
Baylor
UT Houston
Case Western - UH
Cleveland Clinic
Cincinnati
Indiana
Vanderbilt
UAB
Emory

Sorry I don't have any insight, but I've talked to Indiana's PD a few times and for long stretches each time, and he is awesome. Nicest guy ever.

 

[saywhaaaaa]

Anyone care to comment on UAB's reputation outside of the southeast? I really liked their program (in the mix for my top 4-5) but was shocked by how many applicants whom I met at non-southeast interviews (top 10-15 ish -- if you give any credence to doximity -- 'big name' programs) had no idea it is a quality program. A decent # didn't even know it existed, or at least acted like it. Would it be a bad idea to go there for residency if one didn't plan on practicing in southeast post-residency?

 

[Psai]

Anyone care to comment on UAB's reputation outside of the southeast? I really liked their program (in the mix for my top 4-5) but was shocked by how many applicants whom I met at non-southeast interviews (top 10-15 ish -- if you give any credence to doximity -- 'big name' programs) had no idea it is a quality program. A decent # didn't even know it existed, or at least acted like it. Would it be a bad idea to go there for residency if one didn't plan on practicing in southeast post-residency?

There are a lot of great programs that aren't well known. I think highly of pitt, Rochester, Virginia mason and ohsu but I don't know if they are well known outside of their region

 

[saywhaaaaa]

There are a lot of great programs that aren't well known. I think highly of pitt, Rochester, Virginia mason and ohsu but I don't know if they are well known outside of their region

Thanks for the response. I'm not worried about their reputation from a prestige perspective in the sense that I only want to go to a 'well known' program. I'm more curious about whether anyone on here with maybe some experience on the hiring side thinks that going to a regionally known place pigeon holes you into regional jobs to some degree.

 

[patriot6]

Thanks for the response. I'm not worried about their reputation from a prestige perspective in the sense that I only want to go to a 'well known' program. I'm more curious about whether anyone on here with maybe some experience on the hiring side thinks that going to a regionally known place pigeon holes you into regional jobs to some degree.

interested in this as well.

 

[Quixotic2501]

Thanks for the response. I'm not worried about their reputation from a prestige perspective in the sense that I only want to go to a 'well known' program. I'm more curious about whether anyone on here with maybe some experience on the hiring side thinks that going to a regionally known place pigeon holes you into regional jobs to some degree.

I would say that you should definitely take the area you want to practice in into account when forming your rank list; that being said, people hiring should know about UAB (along with Pitt, OHSU, VM, etc.) and its reputation. It's definitely a tier 1 program if we are dividing the tiers into equal thirds with roughly 40 programs in each tier. I'm originally from the Southeast, and UAB is regionally known as a huge medical center with good programs overall.

I will add a caveat though only because I see UAB mentioned a lot on this forum for some reason (Wake vs. UAB, popping up in other posts) and making its ways on a number of people's personal top 10 lists over the years (which I understand is a PERSONAL list and people have different reasons for ranking programs the way they do), but at UAB, you are not allowed to rotate through the CTICU as a resident because of some unsavory turf war between surgery and the anesthesiologists. The way it was described to me is that the administration did not want to expose the residents to that sort of environment. Another problem is that I'm not sure how great the pediatric experience is as you are more-or-less in a room with a CRNA at all times.

 

[saywhaaaaa]

So, is there going to be an official Rank List thread now that interviews are mostly over, or is this it?

 

[SEPA]

sounds like you should start one