Effects of Multiple MCATs on Ivy League Admissions

[NoahJoy]

I've taken the MCAT 3 times. First two were lower 20's, last one is a 37. Average is 29.

I've my heart set on going to a top 15, but obviously would be lucky to attend ANY school, ambitiousness is just a part of my blood now.

I have a Chances thread up discussing my situation, but I was wondering if fellow SDN'ers knew of any Multiple MCAT'ers that were admitted to a Top 15 School.

Best.

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[Lamel]

Considering that 3 ivy league med schools are out of the top 15 you may want to re-evaluate your goals.

 

[Lawpy]

Considering that 3 ivy league med schools are out of the top 15 you may want to re-evaluate your goals.

But but it's Ivy League!

I've taken the MCAT 3 times. First two were lower 20's, last one is a 37. Average is 29.

I've my heart set on going to a top 15, but obviously would be lucky to attend ANY school, ambitiousness is just a part of my blood now.

I have a Chances thread up discussing my situation, but I was wondering if fellow SDN'ers knew of any Multiple MCAT'ers that were admitted to a Top 15 School.

Best.

The low 20s in the first two attempts make the 37 look like a fluke. That's the risk of what your scores come across to medical schools.

I suppose you should be fine with lower tier MD schools from the MCAT perspective, since the average is weighted towards a 29 more so than a 37

 

[NoahJoy]

Considering that 3 ivy league med schools are out of the top 15 you may want to re-evaluate your goals.

I'd love to stay in the Northeast. Dartmouth is cool! But I'm a bit off their median age, and I don't think I could live in Hanover. But to be in the NYC/Boston area would be optimal, and there just seems to be a glut of ivies in that region.

Tufts/Boston/Harvard would be just perfect for me.

I'm sorry I'm a glory *****

 

[NoahJoy]

But but it's Ivy League!



The low 20s in the first two attempts make the 37 look like a fluke. That's the risk of what your scores come across to medical schools.

I suppose you should be fine with lower tier MD schools from the MCAT perspective, since the average is weighted towards a 29 more so than a 37

A 37 a fluke? C'mon.

 

[Lawpy]

A 37 a fluke? C'mon.

It's not if it were scored in the first or second attempts. The issue here is that the second 20s score reinforces the first score, so the 37 in the last attempt raises eyebrows.

 

[NoahJoy]

It's not if it were scored in the first or second attempts. The issue here is that the second 20s score reinforces the first score, so the 37 in the last attempt raises eyebrows.

Anyone with a mind could see that the first two were taken 2 years before the last. I have an upward GPA trend that correlates with my 3rd MCAT.

The fact that a 37 could be called a fluke reaffirms my somewhat shaky trust of "SDN Advice."

But thanks for your opinion!

EDIT: I know this comment seems brash, but c'mon! 37 a fluke?! Ridiculous! A 37 takes superhuman amount of dedication and devotion.

 

[NeuResurgens]

The thing to think about with MCAT retakes - there are going to be a lot of people applying to those top 15's who got a 37 the first time around. The first two could make it look like at the very least, you didn't take the test seriously enough.

That being said, schools weigh the MCAT differently. Some will take the best score you got on each section and add those up for your total score, but these are rarer. Other more selective schools might average your MCAT for the 29. You'll need to gather more school-specific data to determine where your best chances are going to be.

 

[deleted346323]

People overanalyze everything on here. I think with a 37 and solid everything else your chances are high for MD admission. I don't think it's going to matter that you retook x2. And who cares at this point, you can't change your scores now. Apply where you want and see what happens.

 

[URMD]

Just apply, you never know what could happen. Consider the extreme applicant pool with many ppl 37+ 1st time MCAT all applying to those schools. Just keep that in mind
Have some other schools that you feel competitive at if your MCAT was averaged and apply to those to as 'safeties' (there really is no safety school).

Good luck! Personally I'd like to see how it turns out for you. Many adcoms on this site have expressed how multiple MCATs are a red flag but its not like you have no chance.

 

[NoahJoy]

If the question will a school will reject you outright for the multiple MCAT retakes, the answer is no.
If the question is can someone be successful with the series you have, the answer is yes, depending on the competitiveness of the rest of your application
If you are planning to set a course of action based on responses from SDN, I think that would be serious mistake in decision making.
And you aren't planning to change your plans based on what you read here, then your questions are entirely moot.

Apply if you feel you are competitive and you feel you are confident to to deal with questions about your MCAT retakes, then apply.
But as the previous poster noted, it is highly competitive applicant pool. These are the kind of places that if you write up how good you are because you can walk on water, an evaluator would mark you down for not being able to swim

Haha, thanks very much for your advice. You're right, I have to apply to answer my questions!

 

[Goro]

SDNer HybridEarth was kind enough to call around and reports on who values what on MCAT retakes:

UIC (Illinois): ONLY considers highest score
Loyola: looks at differences between past two scores and want a significant increase
Northwestern: emphasis on highest composite score
Harvard: only looks at highest score
Duke: emphasis on highest composite score
Columbia: focus on most recent score


A 37 is nothing to sneeze at. So aim high, OP.

I've taken the MCAT 3 times. First two were lower 20's, last one is a 37. Average is 29.

I've my heart set on going to a top 15, but obviously would be lucky to attend ANY school, ambitiousness is just a part of my blood now.

I have a Chances thread up discussing my situation, but I was wondering if fellow SDN'ers knew of any Multiple MCAT'ers that were admitted to a Top 15 School.

Best.

 

[Iridescent]

Honestly, there is no point of this thread, except to make you even more (for lack of a better term) neurotic. Just apply where you think you would be the happiest. You did good on the MCAT. Now, just kill the other parts of the process and you'll be fine.

 

[Lawpy]

SDNer HybridEarth was kind enough to call around and reports on who values what on MCAT retakes:

UIC (Illinois): ONLY considers highest score
Loyola: looks at differences between past two scores and want a significant increase
Northwestern: emphasis on highest composite score
Harvard: only looks at highest score
Duke: emphasis on highest composite score
Columbia: focus on most recent score


A 37 is nothing to sneeze at. So aim high, OP.

This is great stuff. Grateful to you and @HybridEarth for posting this.

 

[WingedOx]

"Ivies"

 

[NoahJoy]

"Ivies"

I know I sound like a dickish high schooler because I want to go to Harvard, but I can't shake it! haha, thanks though.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I know I sound like a dickish high schooler because I want to go to Harvard, but I can't shake it! haha, thanks though.

Some people take issue with applying the ivy label to med schools. That's what may have perturbed @WingedOx.

 

[gyngyn]

Some people take issue with applying the ivy label to med schools. That's what may have perturbed @WingedOx.

Especially because nobody can "unsee" the other scores.
They inevitably have an effect.

 

[WingedOx]

Some people take issue with applying the ivy label to med schools. That's what may have perturbed @WingedOx.

more of a "C'mon man!"

There are a lot of people here who can get you really specific solid advice on a variety of individual schools. Focus on that, not what will impress your mother's garden club when they talk about you.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

more of a "C'mon man!"

There are a lot of people here who can get you really specific solid advice on a variety of individual schools. Focus on that, not what will impress your mother's garden club when they talk about you.

Ah, I see. I thought this may been one of your peeves. Like calling Penn Perelman or Chicago Pritzker.

 

[ZedsDed]

I've taken the MCAT 3 times. First two were lower 20's, last one is a 37. Average is 29.

I've my heart set on going to a top 15, but obviously would be lucky to attend ANY school, ambitiousness is just a part of my blood now.

I have a Chances thread up discussing my situation, but I was wondering if fellow SDN'ers knew of any Multiple MCAT'ers that were admitted to a Top 15 School.

Best.

Not sure what you are trying to get out of this thread. It seems like you have made up your mind. Anecdotal evidence wouldn't help much anyway.

Top schools are such a crap shoot, applicants can do everything right and still not get in to their schools of choice. You should always have safe schools to fall back on. I live in Ca, and I have friends that had lists that literally looked like this:

Harvard
Stanford
Columbia
JHU
UCLA
UCSF
Duke
Yale

That is not applying smartly. A couple of them didn't get in their first cycle because of lists like that. Both of them were high GPA/MCAT applicants. Please try and have some perspective. You get the privilege of being a U.S. trained physician!

Cheers

 

[TraumaLlamaMD]

EDIT: I know this comment seems brash, but c'mon! 37 a fluke?! Ridiculous! A 37 takes superhuman amount of dedication and devotion.

A 37 is a very good score, but superhuman? Chillax, brah.

 

[justadream]

Pure superscoring (or looking at just the highest score) is unfair to other applicants who only took it once (even if it were a high score). This is because one-time takers cannot take advantage of natural variation in scores when you take it multiple times.

As such, I suspect even the schools that "only" look at the best score still have some implicit bias against multiple (low) scores.

Or as gyngyn put it best:

Especially because nobody can "unsee" the other scores.
They inevitably have an effect.

 

[Salt Salt]

I'm sorry I'm a glory *****

The problem here is that you seem to think that glory-whoring is but a minor flaw. In reality, the obsession with prestige is a tremendous fault.

Are you passionate about medicine, or impressing people? Then apply to the schools that are the best fit for you, not the "ivies" (as if that term means anything when talking about medical schools; if you're obsessed with prestige, would you really choose Dartmouth over Johns Hopkins?)

I hope this doesn't sound moralizing. It's just that ego is not the minor foible you seem to think it is. And I hope that it's only relevant to your choice of schools---not your choice to pursue medicine to begin with. Otherwise, you're setting yourself up for a huge mistake.

 

[Vain Brother]

Pure superscoring (or looking at just the highest score) is unfair to other applicants who only took it once (even if it were a high score). This is because one-time takers cannot take advantage of natural variation in scores when you take it multiple times.

As such, I suspect even the schools that "only" look at the best score still have some implicit bias against multiple (low) scores.

Or as gyngyn put it best:

yeah "superscoring" is not a real thing, i don't care what admissions offices say. it makes no sense

 

[NoahJoy]

yeah "superscoring" is not a real thing, i don't care what admissions offices say. it makes no sense

I know for a fact superscoring is a thing at GW. One of my research PI's sat on their admissions board, an he had to fill out this sheet and superscore multiple MCATs.

Not sure if it is done like this at Vanderbilt.

 

[NoahJoy]

The problem here is that you seem to think that glory-whoring is but a minor flaw. In reality, the obsession with prestige is a tremendous fault.

Are you passionate about medicine, or impressing people? Then apply to the schools that are the best fit for you, not the "ivies" (as if that term means anything when talking about medical schools; if you're obsessed with prestige, would you really choose Dartmouth over Johns Hopkins?)

I hope this doesn't sound moralizing. It's just that ego is not the minor foible you seem to think it is. And I hope that it's only relevant to your choice of schools---not your choice to pursue medicine to begin with. Otherwise, you're setting yourself up for a huge mistake.

Right, I get that. Most of it stems from me deciding to choose "what fit me best" during undergrad, and sorely regretting not going to the Top 25 school I got into. Second time around, I vowed I'd go to the best school because honestly, the best opportunities do tend to arrive there.

I love medicine, but I don't want to ever close doors for myself again, like I did previously.

 

[NoahJoy]

A 37 is a very good score, but superhuman? Chillax, brah.

I don't know! It took me 6 months and a ridiculous amount of dedication that I didn't think I had in me.

 

[NoahJoy]

You get the privilege of being a U.S. trained physician!

Cheers

100%, if I don't get into a Top 15 school, but do get into say, my state school, I'm definitely going there! I would be very luck to get into any school considering my somewhat unsavory academic past, coupled with the generally crazy competitiveness inherent in American the medical school admissions process.

 

[Mad Jack]

Ivy League is a meaningless thing in regard to medical schools. You will probably get in somewhere with a 37, and you stand a solid chance at a few top 20s with your stats, so long as your ECs are in order.

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't know! It took me 6 months and a ridiculous amount of dedication that I didn't think I had in me.

A 37 is hardly "superhuman." It's a damn good score, but it's more luck than anything that separates out the scores above the 95th percentile.

 

[NoahJoy]

A 37 is hardly "superhuman." It's a damn good score, but it's more luck than anything that separates out the scores above the 95th percentile.

This is true. I sometimes think if I'd answered like 2 differently, would I have a 35? Kind of ridiculous.

For me, it was definitely a supernoah feat because before then, I'd just never been able to devote myself to something like my MCAT. And I truly despised every second of that half-year time period.

 

[Vain Brother]

I know for a fact superscoring is a thing at GW. One of my research PI's sat on their admissions board, an he had to fill out this sheet and superscore multiple MCATs.

Not sure if it is done like this at Vanderbilt.

man that is so dumb if true. maybe that's why GW didn't like my 34 -- i guess it'd have been better as a set of 12/10/8, 10/12/8, 10/8/12

 

[Salt Salt]

A 37 is hardly "superhuman." It's a damn good score, but it's more luck than anything that separates out the scores above the 95th percentile.

What makes you say that?

 

[URMD]

With regards to the superscoring thing, its best to follow gyngyn's post.
When schools say that they 'superscore' it only means that when they report their median MCAT for the admission statistics, they are reporting the medican MCAT for all of the 'superscored' matriculants.

To think that it plays no factor in the admissions proccess, especially @ top20 schools where literally everything is examined with a microscope, is but a naive fallacy.

I would quote the post where this was said, but unfortunately i do not have the time

 

[NoahJoy]

With regards to the superscoring thing, its best to follow gyngyn's post.
When schools say that they 'superscore' it only means that when they report their median MCAT for the admission statistics, they are reporting the medican MCAT for all of the 'superscored' matriculants.

To think that it plays no factor in the admissions proccess, especially @ top20 schools where literally everything is examined with a microscope, is but a naive fallacy.

I would quote the post where this was said, but unfortunately i do not have the time

Yeah, it's the worst decision to take an MCAT 2x in order to possibly bump your superscore. You're at an advantage in every case if you just have 1 solid score.

 

[Mad Jack]

What makes you say that?

The fact that the difference between a 35 and a 37 is 2-4 questions. Given that someone with a score already at 35 usualy has enough knowledge to limit the choices down to the best two, it just becomes a matter of dumb luck at that point. Couple that with the idea that you could end up with a group of passages that either is highly favorable or disfavorable to your knowledge base, and you can see that it's kind of a crap shoot at the higher end of the scoring curve.

 

[Vain Brother]

The fact that the difference between a 35 and a 37 is 2-4 questions. Given that someone with a score already at 35 usualy has enough knowledge to limit the choices down to the best two, it just becomes a matter of dumb luck at that point. Couple that with the idea that you could end up with a group of passages that either is highly favorable or disfavorable to your knowledge base, and you can see that it's kind of a crap shoot at the higher end of the scoring curve.

theoretically yeah, and luck definitely can factor into it, but if we're talking people who are scoring 12+ on each section then luck is probably less of a factor than you're making it sound. put more clearly, each additional correct answer from that sample of test-taker is probably more likely due to skill than luck since those test-takers are getting so many questions right anyway

 

[Mad Jack]

theoretically yeah, and luck definitely can factor into it, but if we're talking people who are scoring 12+ on each section then luck is probably less of a factor than you're making it sound. put more clearly, each additional correct answer from that sample of test-taker is probably more likely due to skill than luck since those test-takers are getting so many questions right anyway

As someone who had a 12/11/12, I can assure you, it was luck. Everyone has their weak areas- if I'd gotten hit with certain topics, I would have certainly dropped into the 10-11 range. 10s are easy to get if you work hard, but you either have to get lucky with your passages or know literally everything to land yourself above the 95th percentile. Few people, in my experience, know literally all of the material on the MCAT. There are a few geniuses out there, but most of us are mere mortal men and women, and thus suffer from a few blind spots in our knowledge base. I'd bet that if you had every single person scoring a 36+ take the MCAT 10 times, their scores would be more a consistent 33-37 range than consistently at 36+ (which actually fits with my AAMC practice tests- my low was a 33, high was a 38, average was 35 over all of the tests combined). I got lucky on a couple, and a couple of others hit my blind spots, hence the 5 point variability.

 

[justadream]

As someone who had a 12/11/12, I can assure you, it was luck. Everyone has their weak areas- if I'd gotten hit with certain topics, I would have certainly dropped into the 10-11 range. 10s are easy to get if you work hard, but you either have to get lucky with your passages or know literally everything to land yourself above the 95th percentile. Few people, in my experience, know literally all of the material on the MCAT. There are a few geniuses out there, but most of us are mere mortal men and women, and thus suffer from a few blind spots in our knowledge base. I'd bet that if you had every single person scoring a 36+ take the MCAT 10 times, their scores would be more a consistent 33-37 range than consistently at 36+ (which actually fits with my AAMC practice tests- my low was a 33, high was a 38, average was 35 over all of the tests combined). I got lucky on a couple, and a couple of others hit my blind spots, hence the 5 point variability.

Somewhat agree and disagree.

Yes, there is of course going to be natural variance but the point is that someone who scores higher is more likely to just be better (smarter, more hard working, more prepared, or whatever you want to define "better).

Let's say someone scored a 43.

Now it is possible that that person was someone who averaged a 37 and just got "lucky" and scored on the higher end of the natural variance.

But it's more likely that this person's real ability is 42-44 and scored around where s/he was "supposed to".

Put another way, if you had to bet your life on someone scoring a 43, would you rather have someone who averaged a 43 or someone who averaged a 40? I'd put it on the person who averaged a 43 without hesitation. There is obviously going to be some natural variance but on average, a higher score is more likely to be earned by someone who is "better".

 

[Salt Salt]

As someone who had a 12/11/12, I can assure you, it was luck. Everyone has their weak areas- if I'd gotten hit with certain topics, I would have certainly dropped into the 10-11 range. 10s are easy to get if you work hard, but you either have to get lucky with your passages or know literally everything to land yourself above the 95th percentile. Few people, in my experience, know literally all of the material on the MCAT. There are a few geniuses out there, but most of us are mere mortal men and women, and thus suffer from a few blind spots in our knowledge base. I'd bet that if you had every single person scoring a 36+ take the MCAT 10 times, their scores would be more a consistent 33-37 range than consistently at 36+ (which actually fits with my AAMC practice tests- my low was a 33, high was a 38, average was 35 over all of the tests combined). I got lucky on a couple, and a couple of others hit my blind spots, hence the 5 point variability.

I had the opposite experience. My score was well past the 95th percentile after my practice test scores stopped improving; after they plateaued, I took about 7-8 practice tests, and only two of these diverged from my average by more than 1. My actual MCAT was the exact average of those exams.

When 2-4 questions means the difference of 2 points on the MCAT, I don't blame you for feeling it has to be very variable. However, I really think you're just overestimating the standard deviation of people getting top scores. I think they know enough that their results are very consistent. For example, you write that you could have been hit with certain topics you struggled with; for those getting 40s consistently each time, no such topics exist.

 

[GrapesofRath]

You can tell how much someone has actually done research on medical school admission if there goal is to "just get into an IVY league school at all costs" as if IVY leagues name when it comes to medical school admission is above all else.

 

[Mad Jack]

I had the opposite experience. My score was well past the 95th percentile after my practice test scores stopped improving; after they plateaued, I took about 7-8 practice tests, and only two of these diverged from my average by more than 1. My actual MCAT was the exact average of those exams.

When 2-4 questions means the difference of 2 points on the MCAT, I don't blame you for feeling it has to be very variable. However, I really think you're just overestimating the standard deviation of people getting top scores. I think they know enough that their results are very consistent. For example, you write that you could have been hit with certain topics you struggled with; for those getting 40s consistently each time, no such topics exist.

A person getting a 37 is in no way equal to a person consistently getting 40s. The only people I knew that got 40s were surprised at their score, and described it as being akin to the stars perfectly aligning, as they'd had a 40 or two on their AAMCs, but all of the rest of their scores were upper-mid 30s. Granted, I've only known 3 people that ever broke 40, so it is a very small sample size.

 

[Dr. Strangelove MD]

I think the worst score to get would be a 44, always wondering what was missed. I have heard of 43 and 45 but never a 44

Gosh, yes, I really would hate to have gotten a 44 on my MCAT

 

[justadream]

I think the worst score to get would be a 44, always wondering what was missed. I have heard of 43 and 45 but never a 44

Lol or maybe it's the BEST score to get. People might not like people who are perfect (45) so getting a 44 shows you are smart but still human/relatable.

 

[BasedMD]

If you're able to consider Ivy League schools, you shouldn't be worrying about your mcats.

 

[resiroth]

I don't know! It took me 6 months and a ridiculous amount of dedication that I didn't think I had in me.

Bro. Do you think adcoms don't realize this? The fact that you scored in your 20s twice before getting a super high score to me illustrates that you spent a disproportionate amount of time on it. The fact that you scored in your 20s twice also shows you have a history of making seriously flawed decisions (taking the mcat before you're ready not once, but twice!).

Honestly not be a jerk but I think while I wouldn't rule out top 20 completely, I would say your mcat is not even close to a 37 in terms of making a school list. You'll have to have great ECs to make up for the two poor MCAT scores. Just apply broadly. Best case you're pleasantly surprised.

What will be in the back of a school's mind is "will this guy treat the step 1 with the same lack of preparation the first time?"

 

[WedgeDawg]

Lol or maybe it's the BEST score to get. People might not like people who are perfect (45) so getting a 44 shows you are smart but still human/relatable.

I hope you are joking

 

[Sterling Archer]

Honestly not be a jerk but I think while I wouldn't rule out top 20 completely, I would say your mcat is not even close to a 37 in terms of making a school list. You'll have to have great ECs to make up for the two poor MCAT scores.

You have to have great ECs anyway. The MCAT score is only part of the admissions puzzle.

 

[resiroth]

You have to have great ECs anyway. The MCAT score is only part of the admissions puzzle.

You do not need to have "great" ECs to do well... Cookie cutter ECs are dismissed on SDN but in the end a lot of medical schools (even top 20) are okay with it. Some volunteering a bit of shadowing and a year of research is what I would consider "good".

point is OP can't rely on his stats being comparable to other accepted applicants because his "37" is different than other "37s".

He's going to have to have a serious hook to interest top schools, given the black mark of his mcats.