EKG and CT on all psych pts??

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polygonal

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So...

Now our peds psychiatrists are asking for an EKG on all pts "because we might give them meds that will prolong their QT" and CTs on all new pts.

Thoughts?

Anyone have any data to argue against it? I wonder what the number needed to kill vs the number to dx a brain lesion is.

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There is literature out there to show this is not helpful.

This study included 352 patients and found that without "standard screening labs" they would've missed 2 cases of mild hypokalemia. Two cases!

There was a prospective study done in Chicago that found no increased rate of bounce backs when they stopped doing routine labs and just did an H&P on Psych patients, but I can't find the reference right now.

The sticking point is that in order for these things to work you actually have to do a full H&P on psych patients and address things like abnormal vitals or subjective complaints.
 
Pysch patients don't need any mandatory imaging or testing as part of their evaluation. If you do a proper medical screening evaluation, they can be quickly cleared and sent to the appropriate psych facility. Of course it never works this way in real medicine.
 
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I believe all psych pts gets an EKG/CMP. My job is to medically clear them. To do that, I like to get an EKG to rule out certain overdoses. Also, I need a CMP looking at the LFTS for tylenol overdose.

The rest of the stuff (cbc, drug screen, etoh) gets ordered b/c I rather order than get asked to order right when i am to transfer.
 
I am just waiting for them to want LPs on all new psychosis for NMDA encephalitis :oops:.
 
This is a perpetual battle, to get "screening" labs (I HATE that term) on seemingly otherwise healthy pts. If there is a suspected OD, that's a different story. CT? Hell no, unless there is a legitimate concern for an acute intracranial process.
 
A bit off of the CT ECG thing is the requests for meds on patients such as need to get BP to "normal" or blood sugar to normal.
I often tell the psych RNs/evaluators that what I do, and will do, is medical CLEARANCE. a lot of what they come to us for is medical MAINTENANCE, like adjusting BP, blood sugar, home meds.
 
EKG, ok...
CT, not ok... If you do a search, you will find lots of literature on risk of radiation. From the PECARN study "The estimated rate of lethal malignancies from CT is between 1 in 1000 and 1 in 5000 paediatric cranial CT scans, with risk increasing as age decreases."

Much of peds psych stuff is ridiculous anyways. Mom took daughter's iphone away because she was texting at the dinner table and now she's depressed. You're gonna scan her head? Give me a break.
 
We get EKG. CT on first psych break to r/o frontal tumor, never after that.
 
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We get EKG. CT on first psych break to r/o frontal tumor, never after that.

I agree, a first episode of psychosis or mania warrants serious consideration of CNS pathology (encephalitis/CVA/mass/hemorrhage/focal seizure).

But for suicidality after a breakup? Eff that.
 
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I agree, a first episode of psychosis or mania warrants serious consideration of CNS pathology (encephalitis/CVA/mass/hemorrhage/focal seizure).

But for suicidality after a breakup? Eff that.

Certainly. But I would say it would be exceptionally rare to have solely psych manifestations without some other historical or exam finding of CNS issue,
I will say that everywhere I have worked outside of academics with regard to new onset psych, the CT has become a part of the neurotic exam and not based on clinical clues. Heck, I don't fight those battles any longer either, I just die a little on the inside every time I acquiesce:)
 
If the patient needs CT because you are worried about something else, that's fine. That's the reason we do a medical screening exam. But to CT all psych patients, is a bit much and a slippery slope. A lot of that bad stuff (CVA, Encephalitis, Mass, Focal Seizure) is better evaluated/ ruled out on MRI anyways and if you think that is in the differential the patient should probably be medically admitted. Next we'll be sitting in MRI doing conscious sedations... I ain't down with that.
 
I agree, a first episode of psychosis or mania warrants serious consideration of CNS pathology (encephalitis/CVA/mass/hemorrhage/focal seizure).
But not with a CT and not with an otherwise normal neuro exam. I'm a child/adolescent psych fellow and we've had multiple discussions and presentations (by residents) showing that all these screening labs and imaging are not worthwhile in the absence of abnormalities on history and physical exam. Even EKGs are almost always not worthwhile, even if you plan on starting a med that prolongs the QTc or a stimlant, I believe, without some reason to suspect cardiac pathology. False positives are not without harm, even if you're not concerned with the test itself.

And yet, despite going over this with faculty present, nothing ever changes. The hospital has its outdated and non-evidence based policy. The older attendings get these tests "just in case." From my memory, the evidence is rather clear and unambiguous, so I don't know what's up with practice not changing.
 
Far too many people in medicine think that to consider = to test for. It doesn't. I consider PE in every chest pain patient, but only I test for it in about 5%.
 
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Ekg and CT on ALL psych patients?

This is pure defensive medicine. Can you blame them?

One doc on staff has 1 in a million young patient go into cardiac arrest and die from torsade de pointe and an old ekg is found with "borderline prolonged QTC," a lawsuit ensues and therefore,

"ALL PSYCH PATIENTS NEED AN EKG!"

One in a million psych admits herniates and dies on the psych ward and autopsy shows "frontal lobe tumor," a lawsuit ensues and therefore,

"ALL PSYCH ADMITS NEED A HCT!"

Is it absurd? Yes, of course.

But, but, but...Do you do it all day and all night to cover your own arse and torture the docs you admit to with CYA admissions and will you absolutely continue to do so from now and until your last shift, out of necessity?

Yes, absolutely.
 
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Non-physicians have a gross misunderstanding of what pathology can be identified on a non-contrast head CT and are falsely reassured by one.

I guess some physicians also have the same misunderstanding.
 
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I don't think a screening EKG is inappropriate if they request it in the face of consideration of neuroleptic medications (once the patient is calm/zonked) and at least one psychiatrist I've worked with gave an appropriate answer for why they want a CBC/BMP (Clozaril & lithium, respectively).

The labs & "medical screening" changes very little in the ED dispo, but can be useful down the line... similar to cultures for sepsis, TCell counts in HIV, etc.

The UDS? Utterly useless for anything other than getting the patient outta my department.

A noncon CT brain??? Now that's really ridiculous without some indication (such as first break, FND, etc).

-d
 
I contemplated that frequently with my ex-MIL; current one is beyond reproach (I *really* lucked out the 2nd time around)... d=)
Two for the price of one! How lucky.
 
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Whatever you do, don't let the psychiatrists know that a Non con CT brain doesn't actually rule out strokes/tumors and not even bleeds with 100% certainty. Well have to do LPs and stat MRI/MRA on all psych patients.
 
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I don't think a screening EKG is inappropriate if they request it in the face of consideration of neuroleptic medications
Every test we get should be reasoned and supported by evidence to the best of our ability. Based on that, I haven't seen evidence of the value of an EKG as a screening tool prior to the initiation of an antipsychotic. In the absence of personal or family cardiac history, it's simply not useful. QTc is only a surrogate marker for what we really care about, and there isn't a direct correlation between QT prolongation and incidence of TdP. An EKG can prevent the use of a safe and effective medication, and that would be a problem.

The UDS? Utterly useless for anything other than getting the patient outta my department.
Now here I'm confused. A UDS is useful. It can tell you if patients have or have not taken drugs they do or do not claim to have used (sometimes they lie or exaggerate, sometimes they don't know what they're taking). Sure, it might not help you in the ED, but it helps us figure out what to do on the psych floor, and a UDS can't be delayed or else we'd miss too much.
 
Every test we get should be reasoned and supported by evidence to the best of our ability. Based on that, I haven't seen evidence of the value of an EKG as a screening tool prior to the initiation of an antipsychotic. In the absence of personal or family cardiac history, it's simply not useful. QTc is only a surrogate marker for what we really care about, and there isn't a direct correlation between QT prolongation and incidence of TdP. An EKG can prevent the use of a safe and effective medication, and that would be a problem.


Now here I'm confused. A UDS is useful. It can tell you if patients have or have not taken drugs they do or do not claim to have used (sometimes they lie or exaggerate, sometimes they don't know what they're taking). Sure, it might not help you in the ED, but it helps us figure out what to do on the psych floor, and a UDS can't be delayed or else we'd miss too much.
Ok. So, you're suggesting that we should forgo a reasonable test such as an EKG (which I don't routinely obtain, mind you, but do not get in a huff if it is requested) but *should* obtain a test which is not designed for clinical use?

The UDS is a test battery which is based on preemployment testing needs with a bit of the DoT and SAMHSA thrown in; not clinicians. Furthermore, a "negative" UDS does not exclude drug use (just means you have an inappropriately timed sample OR a drug which is not reliably detected) and a "positive" result does not prove actual drug use.

If you want to argue that the UDS is beneficial for managing dual-diagnosis patients, then fine. However, it does not change ED management in the least; and delaying appropriate psych dispo until the patient urinates is inane. If the patient does not manifest symptoms consistent with ingestion of an illicit substance, then it's not on board to any appreciable extent and ought not change the disposition (with the notable exception of ethanol, but that's not the matter here, and nor is it illicit).

As to your assertion that the EKG is a poor marker for QTc issues, I will agree. However, until someone develops and markets an assay for cardiac iKr polymorphism, and knowing that certain AP's have differing effects on said channel, I feel it's not unreasonable to acquiesce to this request if made (as even manufacturers such as Pfizer recommend one before initiating long-term treatment with ziprasidone).

To your assertion that it would preclude administration of a useful drug, well I disagree. We're not getting EKGs on the ones who need to be treated rapidly, so a priori I will have no knowledge of their QTc & it will not change my decision to use an AP. If you're arguing that it will preclude long-term use of the medication on the back end, well, read the preceding paragraph & confer with your malpractice carrier, then tell me you wouldn't CYA?

tl;dr -
Agree with Birdstrike, we do lots of things that are of questionable utility in the ED proper. Some are CYA, others are beneficial downstream. If something is reasonable, minimally invasive, or minimally risky; then go ahead & do it, if for no other reason than to keep your department moving & your consultants happy. But if there is no good justification for something ridiculous, then call BS on it & fight the good fight.

-d
 
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PS -
If you want to use the UDS to claim dual-diagnosis, I'm assuming then you send all positive samples for confirmatory GC/MS, right? I mean, it's a screening test, so all positives need to be confirmed before acting upon them...
 
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Now here I'm confused. A UDS is useful. It can tell you if patients have or have not taken drugs they do or do not claim to have used (sometimes they lie or exaggerate, sometimes they don't know what they're taking). Sure, it might not help you in the ED, but it helps us figure out what to do on the psych floor, and a UDS can't be delayed or else we'd miss too much.

Dude, UDS is a TERRIBLE test. You could be on a half dozen different benzos and have a negative test. God forbid you take an anti-depressant and test positive for meth....

UDS is truly useless.

Although, what really bugs me is etOH level. That goes from useless to dangerous and harmful to the department. When someone is suicidal with a BAC of 450, keeping then in the ED for hours stops up the department. Then you go from having someone who is having a bad day to someone who ends up getting intubated for etOH withdrawal...
 
The UDS is a test battery which is based on preemployment testing needs with a bit of the DoT and SAMHSA thrown in; not clinicians. Furthermore, a "negative" UDS does not exclude drug use (just means you have an inappropriately timed sample OR a drug which is not reliably detected) and a "positive" result does not prove actual drug use.

If you want to argue that the UDS is beneficial for managing dual-diagnosis patients, then fine. However, it does not change ED management in the least; and delaying appropriate psych dispo until the patient urinates is inane.
I am arguing that that's what the UDS is useful for, and of course it comes with the knowledge that there are limitations to this test as with every test. As for your other comment about using confirmatory GC/MS, that's just too expensive to justify the costs almost all the time, but at least if the lab has the urine we could order that a few days later if it seems justifiable.

The problem with not getting the UDS in the ED is that if you wait until the patient is at the psych hospital and then wait for urine to be able to be collected there, we're going to miss out on too much. If you have a psych unit within the main hospital and both dispo and urine can be obtained quickly and easily, then I agree there's not much reason to sit in the ED waiting for the urine to come out.

As to your assertion that the EKG is a poor marker for QTc issues, I will agree. However, until someone develops and markets an assay for cardiac iKr polymorphism, and knowing that certain AP's have differing effects on said channel, I feel it's not unreasonable to acquiesce to this request if made (as even manufacturers such as Pfizer recommend one before initiating long-term treatment with ziprasidone).

To your assertion that it would preclude administration of a useful drug, well I disagree. We're not getting EKGs on the ones who need to be treated rapidly, so a priori I will have no knowledge of their QTc & it will not change my decision to use an AP. If you're arguing that it will preclude long-term use of the medication on the back end, well, read the preceding paragraph & confer with your malpractice carrier, then tell me you wouldn't CYA?
Well just to clarify, I said that the QTc was a poor marker for TdP, not the the EKG was a poor marker for QTc. But what you wrote after that does explain fine anyway.

I am talking about long-term usage of an antipsychotic, even ziprasidone. I just now rechecked the prescribing information from Pfizer with ziprasidone, and I don't see them recommending an EKG prior to treatment initiation. The way I would cover myself would be by following the evidence: Geodon does tend to increase the QTc more than other antipsychotics, but it's not clear that this is clinically relevant. I would avoid use of Geodon or get a screening EKG if it really is the best choice in patients with personal or family history of prolonged QT, uncompensated heart failure, recent MI, bradycardia, electrolyte abnormalities, or on other medications known to prolong the QT interval. I might be more careful in females since they seem to be at increased risk.

I know that there are many doctors and sources out there that will disagree and insist on an EKG before using Geodon, but that's not coming from the evidence that I've been able to find.
 
Dude, UDS is a TERRIBLE test. You could be on a half dozen different benzos and have a negative test. God forbid you take an anti-depressant and test positive for meth....

UDS is truly useless.

Although, what really bugs me is etOH level. That goes from useless to dangerous and harmful to the department. When someone is suicidal with a BAC of 450, keeping then in the ED for hours stops up the department. Then you go from having someone who is having a bad day to someone who ends up getting intubated for etOH withdrawal...
I agree on ED use of UDS = very low yield. But as far as making the decision to intubate based on an ETOH level?

Anyone who makes the decision to intubate someone they otherwise wouldn't have intubated, based on an ETOH level alone, is likely exposing patients to the risks of unnecessary intubation.
 
Anyone who makes the decision to intubate someone they otherwise wouldn't have intubated, based on an ETOH level alone, is likely exposing patients to the risks of unnecessary intubation.

I think the point was not that you'd wait for an ETOH level to decide whether to intubate someone, but that keeping the alcoholic in the ED waiting for 16 hours until his level is zero so that he'll be "sober" and can be considered for placement will instead result in severe withdrawal, and that the withdrawal leads to intubation.
 
I think the point was not that you'd wait for an ETOH level to decide whether to intubate someone, but that keeping the alcoholic in the ED waiting for 16 hours until his level is zero so that he'll be "sober" and can be considered for placement will instead result in severe withdrawal, and that the withdrawal leads to intubation.

This. I'm never saying I would intubate someone because they had a high etOH level. I was just saying that if you get a chronic alcoholic who starts to get the shakes at 300, keeping them until they hit '0' or some other prespecified level is dangerous.
 
I think the point was not that you'd wait for an ETOH level to decide whether to intubate someone, but that keeping the alcoholic in the ED waiting for 16 hours until his level is zero so that he'll be "sober"
You should never do that and don't need to do that. You may get an initial level. After that, you simply observe until clinically sober and document evidence of such, prior to discharge. There is absolutely zero need to document absolute laboratory sobriety. Drunkenness is not sufficient to imprison someone in the ED until ETOH = zero. Drunkenness by itself does not necessarily equate with likelihood of "harm to self." People live on the outside smashed all the time. Just document, normal Neuro exam, ambulates without ataxia, understands follow up plan, lack of slurred speech, normal cerebellum function or whatever way you want to document sobriety. As long as they're not driving, discharge when clinically sober and otherwise medically clear. Don't get scared off by some weekend warrior's initial ETOH level.
 
You should never do that and don't need to do that. You may get an initial level. After that, you simply observe until clinically sober and document evidence of such, prior to discharge. There is absolutely zero need to document absolute laboratory sobriety. Drunkenness is not sufficient to imprison someone in the ED until ETOH = zero. Drunkenness by itself does not necessarily equate with likelihood of "harm to self." People live on the outside smashed all the time. Just document, normal Neuro exam, ambulates without ataxia, understands follow up plan, lack of slurred speech, normal cerebellum function or whatever way you want to document sobriety. As long as they're not driving, discharge when clinically sober and otherwise medically clear. Don't get scared off by some weekend warrior's initial ETOH level.

I agree with you. If a patient is drunk and there for a medical issue, I don't get a level. The only two times I order a level is 1) a patient is obtunded and I have no history or 2) they're drunk and suicidal/homicidal. Our psych won't see them until they hit a magic number.

If I have a medical patient that's drunk I dc as soon as they have a ride or as soon as they seem clinically sober.
 
I agree with you. If a patient is drunk and there for a medical issue, I don't get a level. The only two times I order a level is 1) a patient is obtunded and I have no history or 2) they're drunk and suicidal/homicidal. Our psych won't see them until they hit a magic number.

If I have a medical patient that's drunk I dc as soon as they have a ride or as soon as they seem clinically sober.
There's nothing wrong with getting an ETOH level. I was just responding to your comment, that getting an ETOH level commits you to repeating it and waiting until it is zero to discharge.
 
Is it absurd? Yes, of course.

But, but, but...Do you do it all day and all night to cover your own arse and torture the docs you admit to with CYA admissions and will you absolutely continue to do so from now and until your last shift, out of necessity?

Yes, absolutely.

I'm fine ordering stuff to cover my own butt.
But I won't order inappropriate stuff to cover their butt.
They can order those tests themselves. That way they're responsible for whatever comes from them.
 
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So...

Now our peds psychiatrists are asking for an EKG on all pts "because we might give them meds that will prolong their QT" and CTs on all new pts.

Thoughts?

Anyone have any data to argue against it? I wonder what the number needed to kill vs the number to dx a brain lesion is.

My thoughts are, you probably quoted your peds psychiatrist incorrectly.
 
EKG? Sure, if they want it fine, I won't argue.

CT? That's just madness. They can order them if they want.

CT kids...really? As screening! Yikes.

I don't think a screening EKG is inappropriate if they request it in the face of consideration of neuroleptic medications (once the patient is calm/zonked) and at least one psychiatrist I've worked with gave an appropriate answer for why they want a CBC/BMP (Clozaril & lithium, respectively).

The labs & "medical screening" changes very little in the ED dispo, but can be useful down the line... similar to cultures for sepsis, TCell counts in HIV, etc.

The UDS? Utterly useless for anything other than getting the patient outta my department.

A noncon CT brain??? Now that's really ridiculous without some indication (such as first break, FND, etc).

-d

I'm rotating through 2 EDs right now and not for a long time, so I don't understand all the logistics but why should the ECG be done in the ED as opposed to the psych unit?

They do this at our hospital as well, and it isnt usually a problem because its low volume but when the techs, nurses, etc. are swamped I dont understand how this is a reasonable request to have these screening tests done in the ED when the psych unit can very easily do it themselves.

Is it an issue of interpreting the test?
 
I'm rotating through 2 EDs right now and not for a long time, so I don't understand all the logistics but why should the ECG be done in the ED as opposed to the psych unit?

They do this at our hospital as well, and it isnt usually a problem because its low volume but when the techs, nurses, etc. are swamped I dont understand how this is a reasonable request to have these screening tests done in the ED when the psych unit can very easily do it themselves.

Is it an issue of interpreting the test?
I only feel it's reasonable as it's relatively noninvasive & easy to interpret.

The reason it doesn't get done on psych:
1) feel it's part of the "medical clearance," and thus should be done PTA.
2) May not have the training or support (as easy as it is to do a 12 lead, some places may have specific job descriptions that preclude anyone other than certain employees from obtaining).
3) Psych not comfortable reading said EKG.
4) Psych Attending may not physically see patients til several hours later... depending on what meds need to be given, may be important to know.

1, 2, 3 = delaying tactics
4 = legitimate basis though still delaying tactic... but why I don't think it's terribly unreasonable. I'd rather fightback against the UDS.

-d
 
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I'm rotating through 2 EDs right now and not for a long time, so I don't understand all the logistics but why should the ECG be done in the ED as opposed to the psych unit?

They do this at our hospital as well, and it isnt usually a problem because its low volume but when the techs, nurses, etc. are swamped I dont understand how this is a reasonable request to have these screening tests done in the ED when the psych unit can very easily do it themselves.

Is it an issue of interpreting the test?

I was good buddies and roommates with 2 guys during medschool that both went into psych. We're still in good touch. They're brilliant minds, and are great at what they do. They've saved many a patient from themselves.

You don't want them to interpret an EKG.

Ever.
 
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I only feel it's reasonable as it's relatively noninvasive & easy to interpret.

The reason it doesn't get done on psych:
1) feel it's part of the "medical clearance," and thus should be done PTA.
2) May not have the training or support (as easy as it is to do a 12 lead, some places may have specific job descriptions that preclude anyone other than certain employees from obtaining).
3) Psych not comfortable reading said EKG.
4) Psych Attending may not physically see patients til several hours later... depending on what meds need to be given, may be important to know.

1, 2, 3 = delaying tactics
4 = legitimate basis though still delaying tactic... but why I don't think it's terribly unreasonable. I'd rather fightback against the UDS.

-d

Isn't the rule not to order a test you cannot interpret? If psychiatrists see a type of patient on a routine basis and start meds that can have a deleterious impact on the cardiovascular system, then they should have a basic understanding of ekgs.
 
Isn't the rule not to order a test you cannot interpret? If psychiatrists see a type of patient on a routine basis and start meds that can have a deleterious impact on the cardiovascular system, then they should have a basic understanding of ekgs.
True. Won't get an argument from me as to whether or not they *should* be able to read an EKG.

However, the reality is they often can't.

Now, your position above would imply that we in the ED ought never order advanced imaging; arguing a physician shouldn't order a test he/she can't interpret is a fool's errand... when one gets wonky results, we call a consult. And in the case of radiology, there's a whole residency behind the idea of interpreting tests other people order.

Ergo, psych asking me to read an EKG is a consult. And a whole heckuva lot faster than them calling cardiology.

The point I was trying to make is that there is at least a plausible justification for the EKG.
 
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True. Won't get an argument from me as to whether or not they *should* be able to read an EKG.

However, the reality is they often can't.

Now, your position above would imply that we in the ED ought never order advanced imaging; arguing a physician shouldn't order a test he/she can't interpret is a fool's errand... when one gets wonky results, we call a consult. And in the case of radiology, there's a whole residency behind the idea of interpreting tests other people order.

Ergo, psych asking me to read an EKG is a consult. And a whole heckuva lot faster than them calling cardiology.

The point I was trying to make is that there is at least a plausible justification for the EKG.

Ya, just giving you a hard time ;)
 
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Neither are necessary routinely. In fact, really nothing is. In straightforward cases where one does not suspect an overdose or intoxication in some form, and the person is young and otherwise healthy, they need ziltch to be medically cleared by psych. Often this is impossible though so we just do very basic stuff including ASA and Acetominophen levels as well as ORDERING a drug screen. It was agreed that it does not change management and thus if the the results are not back in time for the transfer, it can be done later. EKG is rarely needed for medical clearance in a young cardiac healthy person. CT is also a waste of money and radiation unless you suspect trauma or something otherwise intracranial.
 
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