"Elite" med schools

[confusedhokie]

I'm just really tired of hearing the term elite med schools as if they are the only option for becoming a physician who can make a difference. Unfortunately, it kinda makes me feel like my own school I will be attending next fall isn't good enough in comparison, and I worked really hard to get there. I understand there will always be someone smarter than me, but just kinda makes me feel bad about myself. End random rant.

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[Kelevra]

I completely understand. It's tough to have such an outstanding achievement be reduced simply because it's not "elite". Some people will judge, simply because. Nothing you can do about that. But ignorance is bliss, and understanding that, as well as looking behind the face value, is why YOU are going to be the physician, and not the layperson.

However, the achievement is whatever significance you want it to be. You might not be able to match research funding/opportunities that Harvard or others have. But remember that students at your school may have gotten into some of those "elite" schools, and chose not to go. In reality, most of the curriculum is the same, aside from organization and minor changes (well, Yale system is an obvious exception).

Good doctors come from everywhere and anywhere. Do well in school to grab a good residency. You're starting over now. New slate, you're a medical student. Congratulations!! Majority of applicants cannot say this.

 

[Lamel]

Elite schools are not the only way to make a difference as a physician. There will be people smarter than you at any school, including the one you attend this fall.

Btw, aren't you going to Einstein? That's one of the best schools in the country - what is there to feel bad about?

 

[jyates1134]

This is the biggest sham of today's medical premed age. Every one is neurotic about the name behind their school. In the real medical world, inside the hospital, pretty much no one cares. No layman is going to stop you at Kroger and follow up with a question, "Did you got o Duke?" after you tell them you're a doctor when they originally asked you what you did for a living.

At the hospital that I volunteer at, there are so many DOs with white coats. Does that make the hospital third tier trash because not everyone went to UCSF or Harvard? No, people get excellent medical care there. Not to belittle people who aspire to get into UCSF or Harvard, if that's their goal. Just don't think you won't be anything if you don't make it there. Think real hard of why do you want to be a doctor.

I have good enough stats for a top _____ schools. But guess what? You will put your bottom dollar I'm applying to all the DO schools in my state and the public state schools that aren't in US Today's Top whatever list.

I think you'll make a great physician no matter where you go. Keep your head up and your drive strong.

 

[WedgeDawg]

There's always a bigger fish, no matter what. The easiest way to not let this affect you is to focus on your own lane and not worry about anyone else.

+ no one thinks that the only way to be a good doctor that can make a difference is to go to Harvard...

 

[Microglia]

It's not where you go, it's what you do there. Most people who go to Harvard, like all other places, don't accomplish much. True story.

 

[allantois]

My favorite doc is a Caribbean graduate. Who cares where he went to school?

 

[WingedOx]

I'm just really tired of hearing the term elite med schools as if they are the only option for becoming a physician who can make a difference. Unfortunately, it kinda makes me feel like my own school I will be attending next fall isn't good enough in comparison, and I worked really hard to get there. I understand there will always be someone smarter than me, but just kinda makes me feel bad about myself. End random rant.

who is telling you this and why do you care?

 

[The Real SVB]

Most people who go to Harvard, like all other places, don't accomplish much. True story.

orly

Grapes must be sour.

 

[BasedMD]

I'm just really tired of hearing the term elite med schools as if they are the only option for becoming a physician who can make a difference. Unfortunately, it kinda makes me feel like my own school I will be attending next fall isn't good enough in comparison, and I worked really hard to get there. I understand there will always be someone smarter than me, but just kinda makes me feel bad about myself. End random rant.

Be happy you got into a medical school. This process is insanely competitive and most people don't make it and they'd be extremely grateful to be in your shoes. You don't need an ivy league education to make a difference, the ability to make a difference is in your hands. Your education is what you make of it. You aren't defined solely by the school you go to.

 

[Microglia]

orly

Grapes must be sour.

Lol- I can see it coming off that way. I'm at a top 10 med school. I'm just saying that simply being at a top 10 school doesn't get you where you want to be. Some people are so in love with the reputation that they forget to keep working as hard as possible- even going to Harvard med is only step number 1 towards making an impact.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

To swing this pendulum back to center...

Yes, the ranking systems are flawed.

Yes, you can be a great doctor wherever you go.

But let's not pretend that the quality of your education and training is unimportant.

There are real differences in quality, in opportunity. There are schools that do a much better job than others. Medical education is not a homogenous conveyor belt.

I would hope everyone cares about the quality of their training. To pretend it plays no role is ignorant.

 

[deleted480308]

To swing this pendulum back to center...

Yes, the ranking systems are flawed.

Yes, you can be a great doctor wherever you go.

But let's not pretend that the quality of your education and training is unimportant.

There are real differences in quality, in opportunity. There are schools that do a much better job than others. Medical education is not a homogenous conveyor belt.

I would hope everyone cares about the quality of their training. To pretend it plays no role is ignorant.

+1

Some schools are absolutely better than others... but for your emotional health OP, now that you are in just remember it's like prom and you don't really get to change dates half way through. It doesn't matter any more if the other girl actually looks better, keep your eyes on the girl you showed up with and don't worry about every one else.

 

[Law2Doc]

In medicine you are only as good as your training -- meaning your residency/ fellowship matter more. I know plenty of people who did well at middle of the pack schools, got strong residencies and fellowships and now are on amazing paths. I also know people who went to supposedly elite med schools and then rather average residencies. Truth of the matter is that while premeds see med school as the culmination of their hard work, it's really just base camp -- the stuff that matters starts after you get through.

 

[jsquared91]

I'd say Einstein's training is pretty solid, the professors and alumni I met there and at second look made that clear.
also:
http://journals.lww.com/academicmed...a_Top_Research_Medical_School__A_Call.20.aspx

There's always a bigger fish, no matter what. The easiest way to not let this affect you is to focus on your own lane and not worry about anyone else.

+ no one thinks that the only way to be a good doctor that can make a difference is to go to Harvard...

On an unrelated note:

 

[el_duderino]

I'm just really tired of hearing the term elite med schools as if they are the only option for becoming a physician who can make a difference. Unfortunately, it kinda makes me feel like my own school I will be attending next fall isn't good enough in comparison, and I worked really hard to get there. I understand there will always be someone smarter than me, but just kinda makes me feel bad about myself. End random rant.

In this profession, you're going to constantly be surrounded by and working with people who are smarter, faster, harder-working, and more ambitious than yourself. Now is the time to get over your ego.

 

[lmn]

I'm just really tired of hearing the term elite med schools as if they are the only option for becoming a physician who can make a difference. Unfortunately, it kinda makes me feel like my own school I will be attending next fall isn't good enough in comparison, and I worked really hard to get there. I understand there will always be someone smarter than me, but just kinda makes me feel bad about myself. End random rant.

Stop listening to premeds talk then. Most premeds are just prestige chasers and don't actually know anything about how different schools specialize at creating physicians that are talented in different ways. There are schools that are excellent at training primary care physicians that are very clinically talented, there are schools that make great physician scientists, and everything in between. If I were you I would stop caring what a bunch of kids that don't really understand how med school works are saying.

 

[ChemEngMD]

When it is prestige for prestige sake - there are always people who feel a little salty about not being at a more "elite" school. Even when you're in the top 20 there are people who are mad they aren't top 10. When you're top 10 there are people who are mad they aren't top 5 and when you're top 5 there will still be people mad they aren't Harvard. You just gotta be happy with where you landed and make the best out of it you can

 

[Señor Chang]

Most people who go to Harvard, like all other places, don't accomplish much. True story.

I'm sorry but I really doubt that this is true. From my personal experience at elite schools, I think there is a significant difference in how much is accomplished by the avg Harvard student than a student from a school with a less prestigious name, like UCI. However, that is not to say that brilliant people don't come from all schools.

And OP, I'm sorry about those judgmental people. I know exactly how you feel; I often hope that those people one day learn how hard it is to get into any medical school period. However, they probably wont so I think its best to just keep trying not to give a F&$% about what they think.

 

[Lucca]

As an immigrant I believe I have a unique perspective on this considering that my entire life I didn't hear a single word about "elite" or "second-tier" or any of that stuff until junior year of high school when it began to raise blood pressures among my peers and - admittedly - myself to an extent.

The perspective is this: it really doesn't matter.

I'm not going to lie to you and say the prestige of the school you attend has zero effect on your career (@SouthernSurgeon has already explained that) but I will tell you that school prestige is totally unimportant for you as an individual.

How do I know? Because you didn't do it. At one point, consciously or not, you decided that the sacrifices inherent in achieving something of that ilk did not have enough value for you and I imagine you were not born into a position where it could be handed to you. You know that for the things that matter to you, achieving a top 5 acceptance was less important than other things. Getting into medical school in this country is an enormous achievement (much less MD, much less Einstein), something one ought to be proud of. The number of people for who this achievement is insufficient is vanishingly small and I can almost guarantee that they are mostly deeply unhappy people.

To "make a difference" means many things. One can "make a difference" coming from any background. There are DOs and FMGs on the faculty lists of Harvard and Stanford Med. There are physicians from no-name schools and Harvard alike somewhere in the boonies providing much needed care to those who would otherwise have no option. There are people from no name schools from countries you can't even point to on a map right now making a difference in a foreign territory providing care. There are MDs who had no idea what to do with their lives until 35 that are important parts of their respective teams.

Yes, one should care very much about one's education. Yes, one should care about one's training. However, I think you will find (if undergrad didn't make this readily apparent already) that education and training have very little to do institutions and more to do with you. Institutions provide opportunity, support, facilities, and frameworks but ultimately it is up to you to determine what you feel is important, what "making a difference" means to you and then capitalizing on it.

 

[Mad Jack]

It's strange, outside of medicine I never really saw the sorts of insecurity present in OP's post. And what do you mean by "make an impact?" The vast majority of people who make a real impact in medical science are either researchers (many of whom aren't even MDs) and people that are naturally prone to innovation and creative thinking, something that does not equate to where you went to school. Look up the schools that were attended by the physicians that developed innovative surgical procedures, for instance, and you'll find that their backgrounds are extremely varied. Hell, most of them didn't even go to school in the US, let alone at Harvard.

So then I guess the question becomes, are you really concerned with "making an impact" or is it the prestige you're after?

 

[Lucca]

When it is prestige for prestige sake - there are always people who feel a little salty about not being at a more "elite" school. Even when you're in the top 20 there are people who are mad they aren't top 10. When you're top 10 there are people who are mad they aren't top 5 and when you're top 5 there will still be people mad they aren't Harvard. You just gotta be happy with where you landed and make the best out of it you can

This is very true but the most depressing thing to see is people at Harvard realizing that they hate it and everyone in it because after all of that prestige chasing they forgot that they have to fit in with the other qualities Harvard offers, most of them extremely distasteful to the majority of students I imagine given that most aren't erudite academic types anyways.

 

[Goro]

On the PhD side, we always heard that at Harvard, there was "blood on the floor"; that PIs would keep their labs locked so only their own people could enter, (because they hated other PIs like poison) and wouldn't let their post-docs or grad students collaborate with those of other labs!

Then there's the classmate of mine who slept her way onto a Harvard faculty position (after having an affair with her PhD advisor) , but that is another story!

This is very true but the most depressing thing to see is people at Harvard realizing that they hate it and everyone in it because after all of that prestige chasing they forgot that they have to fit in with the other qualities Harvard offers, most of them extremely distasteful to the majority of students I imagine given that most aren't erudite academic types anyways.

 

[Australopithekus]

Where you do residency is far more important than where you do medical school.

“Comparison is the death of joy.”
― Mark Twain

 

[vellez]

What is an "elite" school? One associated with an Ivy league undergrad? Some of the BEST medical schools, from a patient outcome perspective, are public schools. UW, OHSU, any of the UCs, Colorado, Wisconsin, Iowa, etc etc.

 

[LizzyM]

What is your goal? Why medicine? Can you get there from where you are given the path you're on?

The last guy to operate on me graduated from Iowa. The one before that Boston U. I have no idea who the anesthesiologists were or where they graduated from. (They wore masks. )

My last baby was delivered by a grad from U Indiana.

They were all excellent. I may be a faculty member at a top tier school but I don't believe that my doctor has to be an alumnus (or alumna) from a top school to be good.

 

[WingedOx]

rom my personal experience at elite schools, I think there is a significant difference in how much is accomplished by the avg Harvard student than a student from a school with a less prestigious name,

...which of course isn't at all what @Microglia is saying.

 

[The Real SVB]

It's strange, outside of medicine I never really saw the sorts of insecurity present in OP's post.

It's also pretty pervasive in law. Lots of people think that going to a crap law school means they can't help people, where in fact going to a top law school is the best predictor of going into corporate law (either transactional or litigation) and only helping businesses instead of people.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

It's also pretty pervasive in law. Lots of people think that going to a crap law school means they can't help people, where in fact going to a top law school is the best predictor of going into corporate law (either transactional or litigation) and only helping businesses instead of people.

 

[DokterMom]

Some interesting perspectives -- In short - yeah, it matters where you go to school.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/05/does-it-matter-where-you-go-to-college/257227/
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/04/the-3-percent-crisis/389396/
http://www.theatlantic.com/business...-how-the-hiring-process-favors-elites/394166/

 

[The Real SVB]

View attachment 192493

Good joke. Worth noting that corporate personhood only applies in a small handful of cases, contrary to popular belief.

 

[WingedOx]

Some interesting perspectives -- In short - yeah, it matters where you go to school.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/05/does-it-matter-where-you-go-to-college/257227/
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/04/the-3-percent-crisis/389396/
http://www.theatlantic.com/business...-how-the-hiring-process-favors-elites/394166/

to cherrypick a quote...

The authors also allowed that students at posher colleges might come from wealthier families, which could have an effect.

ya think? Sloppy Journalism from a publication that loves the longform.

/Of course where you go to school absolutely matters. The problem is the reasons such a difference are never the reasons discussed in SDN threads.

 

[LizzyM]

But the point is, does the medical school you go to matter? Does it depend, in part, on what you want in your career?

In some ways, the same could be said for undergrad... don't go to Yale if you want to study agriculture and don't go to Nebraska if your career goal is investment banking.

But surgeons come out of both programs, psychiatrists come out of both, and so on.

 

[level1]

I used to be in the elite camp and now I'm completely the opposite. I've met a lot of bright students who've came out of public/low tier programs and tons of boneheads from the ivies. What matters is that when you're in your program you challenge yourself to learn the best you can and seek out opportunities. Great students/physicians are the ones who gain knowledge in order to practice better in their respective fields. If you're the type to initiate research/learning you'll surpass the "elite/big ego" mentalities and be the better physician during your career.

 

[Axes]

Dude no one actually cares about prestige. It's like how if everyone simultaneously decided that GAP clothes were as cool as vineyard vines, then VV would have no one to charge 150$ for a sweater. Every person thinks everyone else cares about prestige, but no one really does, and that's just how it goes..net effect is prestige is rewarded, but you can take solace in the fact that no one at their core cares. Employers care about undergrad prestige, because going to an Ivy is like a badge that says "I'm a hard worker, always have been, likely always will be" or "my family is incredibly rich and powerful and can make good things happen for you." Prestigious med schools seem to be a crapshoot, and I think the general public respects anyone who can get into med school, because most people don't have the work ethic.

 

[miamiheatfan]

Yeah, I think you just need to stay off SDN for a bit. On SDN it sometimes seems like if you don’t go to a top 20 school, you aren’t anything special. Just be proud of what you accomplished knowing that thousands of people would love to be in your position. Everyone can’t be at a “top 20” school and most people aren’t at one, it’s just the fact that the top 20 kids are the ones that are more likely to be “proud” and feel the need to talk about it more.

This isn’t just in med school admissions, this happens in undergrad/high school academics, parents talking about their kids with other parents, athletics, etc. At times people want validation and the ability to feel great about themselves. Sometimes in the process, they make other people feel down if they aren’t at the same level, whether it is intentional or not. That is just life.

In the past, I wouldn’t feel good enough about myself because someone was always better than me. But I realized that you don’t need to be perfect to accomplish your dreams. I’ve never been “the best,” but I think I’ve done well for myself and I’m proud of what I’ve done. In the grand scheme of things like general people’s opinions (that’s what this comes down to) do not matter. Be happy for others and try your best in your everyday life. In YOUR life, it matters what YOU do. What do you make of the opportunities that you are given? Some people want things to happen, some people wish that things could happen, and some make it happen. Try to do the latter, and the med school you go to will be irrelevant. Yes some schools are better than others/provide more opportunities, but there isn’t some unbreakable barrier that says you can’t go to XYZ residency just because you aren’t at a top 20.

 

[justadream]

When it is prestige for prestige sake - there are always people who feel a little salty about not being at a more "elite" school. Even when you're in the top 20 there are people who are mad they aren't top 10. When you're top 10 there are people who are mad they aren't top 5 and when you're top 5 there will still be people mad they aren't Harvard. You just gotta be happy with where you landed and make the best out of it you can

Or, as you imply, just go to HMS

 

[IlDestriero]

One of the surgeons and I were mocking the fellowship match list of what we thought should be a good program today. It was sent to me in an email erroneously. One was from an unranked school, one DO, and one Caribbean. They were very proud of their top ranked matches. Does that make us bad people? Though we were really bashing the program and not the residents, who were probably fine. (maybe?)
I suspect that it actually means that the program is very malignant, which really wouldn't be surprising. You trade your soul and a year or two of your life for the name on your CV.
All the while those in the know who are reviewing your CV for a potential job interview are seeing your "elite" fellowship program and thinking, "that program sucks"...

 

[Señor Chang]

...which of course isn't at all what @Microglia is saying.

Listen I am not trying to offend anyone, I am just stating what I think based on what I have seen over the years.
Please read it again, I think you will see that the writer's statement puts Harvard students in the same boat as "all other places."

 

[WingedOx]

One of the surgeons and I were mocking the fellowship match list of what we thought should be a good program today. It was sent to me in an email erroneously. One was from an unranked school, one DO, and one Caribbean. They were very proud of their top ranked matches. Does that make us bad people? Though we were really bashing the program and not the residents, who were probably fine. (maybe?)
I suspect that it actually means that the program is very malignant, which really wouldn't be surprising. You trade your soul and a year or two of your life for the name on your CV.
All the while those in the know who are reviewing your CV for a potential job interview are seeing your "elite" fellowship program and thinking, "that program sucks"...

I'd criticize and take the high horse, but I'll admit last week another former chief and I were commenting "how the mighty have fallen" about a program that took a Rocky Vista grad this year.

 

[WingedOx]

Listen I am not trying to offend anyone, I am just stating what I think based on what I have seen over the years.
Please read it again, I think you will see that the writer's statement puts Harvard students in the same boat as "all other places."

Nope... you're still wrong.

 

[lazyindy]

The medical office where I work (gastro) as a medical assistant has two main medical directors (major shareholders of the practice) one is a graduate of univ of washington and the other went to the caribbean. Both are leaders in gastroenterology.

Only one was awarded the "Most compassionate doctor' for 4 years in a row. guess which one?

 

[Sterling Archer]

The CEO of Partners Healthcare, the organization that owns and manages MGH and BWH, went to Albany Medical College. That's hardly an elite school, yet this dude became one of the most influential persons in medicine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gottlieb

 

[URMD]

The medical office where I work (gastro) as a medical assistant has two main medical directors (major shareholders of the practice) one is a graduate of univ of washington and the other went to the caribbean. Both are leaders in gastroenterology.

Only one was awarded the "Most compassionate doctor' for 4 years in a row. guess which one?

The CEO of Partners Healthcare, the organization that owns and manages MGH and BWH, went to Albany Medical College. That's hardly an elite school, yet this dude became one of the most influential persons in medicine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gottlieb

Anecdotes, Anecdotes....but whats the trend?

Trend: More elite schools put a higher proportion of their grads into elite residencies
Trend: Elite residencies put a higher proportion of their grads into elite fellowships
Trend: Elite fellowships put a higher proportion of their grads into......uhh well I don't know this one, I guess elite jobs?

Just remember that they're all trends. It's not some hard and fast rule, and anyone can break the trend if they feel like doing it. So do it!

Also fyi if you base your accomplishments on what others around you have accomplished you will never be happy.

 

[Señor Chang]

Nope... you're still wrong.

I am sorry I hurt your feelings.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Anecdotes, Anecdotes....but whats the trend?

Trend: More elite schools put a higher proportion of their grads into elite residencies
Trend: Elite residencies put a higher proportion of their grads into elite fellowships
Trend: Elite fellowships put a higher proportion of their grads into......uhh well I don't know this one, I guess elite jobs?

Just remember that they're all trends. It's not some hard and fast rule, and anyone can break the trend if they feel like doing it. So do it!

Also fyi if you base your accomplishments on what others around you have accomplished you will never be happy.

I agree that this generally true. The average students at top 5 schools are more impressive than the average students at ["non-prestigious" school x here], however, when you look at top students at ["non-prestigious" school x here], you will find that they perform as well at the top students at the high tier institutions.

 

[Axes]

It's the prestige cycle. Hardworking kids go to prestigious school, school gets more prestigious as hardworking kids work hard and become successful, school attracts hard working kids because it is prestigious...etc

 

[Australopithekus]

Anecdotes, Anecdotes....but whats the trend?

Trend: More elite schools put a higher proportion of their grads into elite residencies
Trend: Elite residencies put a higher proportion of their grads into elite fellowships
Trend: Elite fellowships put a higher proportion of their grads into......uhh well I don't know this one, I guess elite jobs?

Just remember that they're all trends. It's not some hard and fast rule, and anyone can break the trend if they feel like doing it. So do it!

Also fyi if you base your accomplishments on what others around you have accomplished you will never be happy.

Trend: Prestigious schools attract and accept highly motivated students
Trend: Highly motivated students pursue prestigious and influential jobs

We just don't really have data on the influence of the school itself. We'd need to distribute students among schools randomly and see what happens 20 years down the road.

 

[resiroth]

Take note: Many of the people saying prestige etc. doesn't matter went to their highest ranked school.

FWIW I think that if your school doesn't have a program in X and you want to match into X that's a serious disadvantage. If you have home programs that's the main thing. If you look at the top 5 students from a top 50 they'll have matched better than the average student at top schools.

Point being if you work hard you can still go where you want to go, it just might be harder.

That being said, if you look at the top 10% of a lot of medium-tier schools their MCAT is also higher than the median at a lot of top places, so that's something to consider. Not that the people that match the best have the best MCAT, but it wouldn't surprise me if the top 10 MCAT scorers had a ~50% overlap with the top 10 matchers, using the MCAT largely as a proxy for ability to put up with junk you hate. A crucial attribute for matching into a great residency .

 

[Narmerguy]

To swing this pendulum back to center...

Yes, the ranking systems are flawed.

Yes, you can be a great doctor wherever you go.

But let's not pretend that the quality of your education and training is unimportant.

There are real differences in quality, in opportunity. There are schools that do a much better job than others. Medical education is not a homogenous conveyor belt.

I would hope everyone cares about the quality of their training. To pretend it plays no role is ignorant.

Sure, but let's not pretend that these prestigious schools are renowned for their quality of education either.

Anecdotes, Anecdotes....but whats the trend?

Trend: More elite schools put a higher proportion of their grads into elite residencies
Trend: Elite residencies put a higher proportion of their grads into elite fellowships
Trend: Elite fellowships put a higher proportion of their grads into......uhh well I don't know this one, I guess elite jobs?

Just remember that they're all trends. It's not some hard and fast rule, and anyone can break the trend if they feel like doing it. So do it!

Also fyi if you base your accomplishments on what others around you have accomplished you will never be happy.

Trend: Prestigious schools attract and accept highly motivated students
Trend: Highly motivated students pursue prestigious and influential jobs

We just don't really have data on the influence of the school itself. We'd need to distribute students among schools randomly and see what happens 20 years down the road.

Precisely. Trends matter, but trends are built from a variety of factors and if you're going to make the claim that it is the *school/residency/whatever* and not the student, that requires special evidence.

My personal belief, having been to prestigious and non-prestigious institutions, is that the resources at these top schools absolutely helps students shine and also creates a culture where students feel pressured to do the right things to "keep up". But for an informed, motivated student the differences are minimized because each seeks out the opportunities necessary to be successful, which do exist at both places. However, not every student is informed or motivated so it's easier to be swept along the path of achievement paved at these prestigious institutions.