Elite School (150k Debt) vs. State School (no debt)

[Cyberdyne 101]

How the flying flip are the responses at 50/50 right now? I don't know about y'all, but I'd rather NOT be in the hole when I graduate from med school. Even though residency will pay like nothing compared to an attending's salary, it will still feel good to start making money and know that NONE of it will go toward loan repayment. I can't be the only one who feels this way...

I agree that these responses (mostly likely) have not been considered thoroughly. The only way to know for sure is to collect data from ppl that are actually confronted with this scenario IRL.
And look, we can't deny the impact of brand names- it applies to so many parts of life. Yeah, a lot of times it's ridiculous, but if someone wants to pay more to attend Hopkins med, you at least hope that they're making that decision for the right reasons.

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[Avicenna]

150 thousand. that's a decent sized suburban townhouse. that's two model s teslas. that's the average cost of raising a child. what are we comparing this to? a brand name degree vs a generic brand?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

To those that voted for the elite school, are you interested in academic medicine and/or dual degrees?
@Lamel @gettheleadout (I'm assuming you guys are part of that group).

 

[alpinism]

I'll just leave this here:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ram-from-a-non-top-25-medical-school.1073026/

In the end it comes down to a personal decision based on your career goals.

If you want to go to a top residency, school name matters a lot.

If you're happy with most mid or low tier residencies, it hardly matters at all.

Obviously it's still possible to get into a top residency from a no-name state school, and there are plenty of n=1 stories out there, but it will be a lot harder compared to someone else coming from a top school.

IM at the Brigham:
http://www.brighamandwomens.org/Dep...nals/residency/Medical/Interns2014.aspx?sub=0

Peds at CHOP:
http://www.chop.edu/professionals/pediatric-residency-program/2013-2014-residents.html

I can guarantee you that those few non top school residents had much higher step 1 scores and grades than the people from top schools.

 

[gettheleadout]

To those that voted for the elite school, are you interested in academic medicine and/or dual degrees?
@Lamel @gettheleadout (I'm assuming you guys are part of that group).

Yes to the former.


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[Cyberdyne 101]

I'll just leave this here:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ram-from-a-non-top-25-medical-school.1073026/

In the end it comes down to a personal decision based on your career goals.

If you want to go to a top residency, school name matters a lot.

If you're happy with most mid or low tier residencies, it hardly matters at all.

Obviously it's still possible to get into a top residency from a no-name state school, and there are plenty of n=1 stories out there, but it will be a lot harder compared to someone else coming from a top school.

IM at the Brigham:
http://www.brighamandwomens.org/Dep...nals/residency/Medical/Interns2014.aspx?sub=0

Peds at CHOP:
http://www.chop.edu/professionals/pediatric-residency-program/2013-2014-residents.html

I can guarantee you that those few non top school residents had much higher step 1 scores and grades than the people from top schools.

Thanks for posting this. I was also looking for that thread.

 

[Greenberg702]

I'll just leave this here:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ram-from-a-non-top-25-medical-school.1073026/

In the end it comes down to a personal decision based on your career goals.

If you want to go to a top residency, school name matters a lot.

If you're happy with most mid or low tier residencies, it hardly matters at all.

Obviously it's still possible to get into a top residency from a no-name state school, and there are plenty of n=1 stories out there, but it will be a lot harder compared to someone else coming from a top school.

IM at the Brigham:
http://www.brighamandwomens.org/Dep...nals/residency/Medical/Interns2014.aspx?sub=0

Peds at CHOP:
http://www.chop.edu/professionals/pediatric-residency-program/2013-2014-residents.html

I can guarantee you that those few non top school residents had much higher step 1 scores and grades than the people from top schools.

Bingo. Of course it's possible to end up at the same place as students from top schools, but it will require much, much more work in terms of board scores and networking. If needing to work much harder than someone else for the same result appeals to you, then go ahead. Students from any US MD school can match into any specialty. Your school name can be a large part of where you match, though. If you're happy with Allegheny neurosurgery then your state school will work. If you're interested in academics and are gunning for MGH, UCSF, Columbia, etc. good luck coming from a state school.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I would surely hope that when selecting a medical school (under any circumstance) applicants weigh each option carefully and comprehensively. That is way different from clicking on a poll answer on a random August day. Also, I admitted earlier that I didn't word the question well. It says in the OP to use a difference of 150k between both schools if you prefer to view the scenario without zero debt (i.e. no lottery ticket).

And again, it is just an SDN poll.

The lottery ticket is in reference to the fact that only for very, very few medical students does "elite school" matter for the residency match. In your scenario, it is a $150k lottery ticket with a very, very low chance of payout.

The good students from my class are all within the range of places they wanted for residency, including those who matched into surgical subspecialties with low match rates. The ones who wanted academics are at academic programs. The ones who didn't are at community or county programs.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

The lottery ticket is in reference to the fact that only for very, very few medical students does "elite school" matter for the residency match. In your scenario, it is a $150k lottery ticket with a very, very low chance of payout.

The good students from my class are all within the range of places they wanted for residency, including those who matched into surgical subspecialties with low match rates. The ones who wanted academics are at academic programs. The ones who didn't are at community or county programs.

I thought your lottery ticket reference represented something else. Thanks for clarifying that. And it's great to hear that ppl from your school match successfully into surgical specialties and academics.

 

[darklabel]

Still won't matter where you went to medical school for a career in academics.

It all depends on where you do residency and your ability to do research. If you do your training at an academic residency program, and actually learn how to do research, then you can have an academic medical career.

In terms of matching to an elite residency:

Step 1 > clinical grades and evals > letters of rec > research >.................prestige of medical school

So I know this is hard for pre meds to grasp, but the only person who will end up caring where you went to medical school is your mom. Where you do residency (and fellowship) is how people will judge you. I've been in rank meetings. Unless it's an absolutely no name school that we've never heard of, the school doesn't make a difference at all.

But then it does matter in a way? If you have everything else great, just like a lot of applicants, and you go to a prestigious school, wouldn't that give you the slight edge for matching into an elite residency?

However, it probably matters to a small subset of medical students the prestige of a residency program and more likely the location and specialty they want.

 

[Narmerguy]

I think 150K is a lot of money. For most schools I would not pay such a difference, but for the right school I would. There would need to be clear opportunities that I intend to take advantage of or benefit from and not just a general fuzzy sense "betterness" about the school. I faced this exact scenario and chose to pay well over $150K when I had full ride and full tuition offers on the table from great schools. At the end of the day, I decided my goal is not to maximize my career earnings and that my actual goals were better served paying a buttload of money. I'm not "happy" about it and think about the debt all the time, but I had a clear set of reasons for my choice and I'd do it again every time.

 

[DoctorLacrosse]

I think 150K is a lot of money. For most schools I would not pay such a difference, but for the right school I would. There would need to be clear opportunities that I intend to take advantage of or benefit from and not just a general fuzzy sense "betterness" about the school. I faced this exact scenario and chose to pay well over $150K when I had full ride and full tuition offers on the table from great schools. At the end of the day, I decided my goal is not to maximize my career earnings and that my actual goals were better served paying a buttload of money. I'm not "happy" about it and think about the debt all the time, but I had a clear set of reasons for my choice and I'd do it again every time.

genuinely curious... do you think it's a likely possibility that your view may completely flip flop post graduation or post residency? or did you take every possible scenario into consideration prior to making your decision?

 

[gettheleadout]

I think 150K is a lot of money. For most schools I would not pay such a difference, but for the right school I would. There would need to be clear opportunities that I intend to take advantage of or benefit from and not just a general fuzzy sense "betterness" about the school. I faced this exact scenario and chose to pay well over $150K when I had full ride and full tuition offers on the table from great schools. At the end of the day, I decided my goal is not to maximize my career earnings and that my actual goals were better served paying a buttload of money. I'm not "happy" about it and think about the debt all the time, but I had a clear set of reasons for my choice and I'd do it again every time.

In b4 some resident or attending makes a snide remark about your judgment without knowing anything about you.


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[ChiDO]

Easy answer: no debt. Anyone who voted for debt needs to wake up.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

genuinely curious... do you think it's a likely possibility that your view may completely flip flop post graduation or post residency? or did you take every possible scenario into consideration prior to making your decision?

I'm sure he took everything into account.
I can't speak on his behalf, but paying less for something (even if it saves you 150k +) doesn't necessarily equal a higher quality of life. Otherwise, why would anyone pay $1900 a month for a studio or 1 bedroom apt. in Manhattan?!

 

[QofQuimica]

genuinely curious... do you think it's a likely possibility that your view may completely flip flop post graduation or post residency? or did you take every possible scenario into consideration prior to making your decision?

He didn't "take every possible scenario into consideration" prior to making that decision, because it's not possible to take every possible scenario into consideration. Or, if he has a crystal ball that good to know exactly how things are going to turn out for the next couple of decades (or even the next few years), he's *so* not in the right profession. And I totally want him to help me time the stock market, pick the right numbers to win the Florida lotto, and predict the future tax code so I can minimize how much I have to pay.

All kidding aside, it is a very likely possibility that his view may completely flip flop, although of course that isn't a sure thing either. However, people's life scenarios frequently change. When this happens, people's priorities frequently change. One of the few things that never changes is that you have a lot more freedom to reach your goals in life when you don't have the albatross of debt dragging you down.

 

[DoctorLacrosse]

He didn't "take every possible scenario into consideration" prior to making that decision, because it's not possible to take every possible scenario into consideration. Or, if he has a crystal ball that good to know exactly how things are going to turn out for the next couple of decades (or even the next few years), he's *so* not in the right profession. And I totally want him to help me time the stock market, pick the right numbers to win the Florida lotto, and predict the future tax code so I can minimize how much I have to pay.

All kidding aside, it is a very likely possibility that his view may completely flip flop, although of course that isn't a sure thing either. However, people's life scenarios frequently change. When this happens, people's priorities frequently change. One of the few things that never changes is that you have a lot more freedom to reach your goals in life when you don't have the albatross of debt dragging you down.

I didn't really mean "every possible scenario". I guess I more meant if his original plan A doesn't work out, did you account for plans B and C as well, just incase. I see what you're saying though, and agree.

 

[Mad Jack]

The following state schools do not apply: UCSF, UCLA, UCSD, Michigan, UTSW, UVA (or any others that are considered elite).

Visualize an acceptance to your dream elite school when thinking about your answer.

(I used state schools rather than "non-elite" private schools in the poll question because I assumed that they are cheaper).

Edit: if you're not satisfied with the dream school scenario pick a desirable school from the US News top 15 (or 20) research rankings. And yes, this poll is about medical schools!
Also, if you don't believe in Geffen scholarships use a difference of ~150k in debt between the 2 schools.

Oh I thought we were talking about medical schools... Undergrad doesn't matter much. For a difference of over 50k, pick the cheap school errytime.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Oh I thought we were talking about medical schools... Undergrad doesn't matter much. For a difference of over 50k, pick the cheap school errytime.

We are talking about med schools.

 

[Mad Jack]

We are talking about med schools.

Oh, well then, take the elite school, cause 150k is nothin' when you've got the residency you want.

 

[Narmerguy]

genuinely curious... do you think it's a likely possibility that your view may completely flip flop post graduation or post residency? or did you take every possible scenario into consideration prior to making your decision?

It's possible that my view on a variety of things could change post graduation or residency. Similar to what Q has mentioned, it's likely that I will see and learn many things that I could not have anticipated. However, anticipating that which I truly cannot know is out of my control. My goal when making big decisions is to consider this question: Did I make make my best effort to investigate and find all the relevant information that I could, and did I make a logical objective decision using this information? So long as I was painstakingly thorough and objective in my decision making, I seldom ever feel remorse or regret for decisions that I make.

This very much means making plans A, B, C, D, E, and F. I spent months making my decision for a reason. That process involved researching schools, contacting and speaking with professors at schools, speaking to current students, researching repayment plans and financial information, researching various career options (academics vs policy vs business vs private practice, etc), speaking with people in different professions, speaking with people who quit/delayed/turned down medical school, and looking back on my previous choices to make sure that I wasn't repeating mistakes I've made in the past or ignoring important lessons. It also involves taking a step back and looking at my personal values and priorities in life as a whole. If after the end of all this I make a choice and later think to myself, "Dang, I really didn't need to pay >$200,000 to go to this school", all I can do is shrug my shoulders and accept that I did my best to make an objective reasoned decision at the time. Even accounting for this eventuality is one of the things that I considered, and I had to do my best to assign that hypothetical scenario the proper weight (i.e. "If my plans change, how damaging will the lost flexibility of owing money be? What sort of career or lifestyle options will be sacrificed? How much do I value those career or lifestyle options and am I comfortable with the possibility of losing out on them? Etc").

It's not easy and it's a decision that I hope few people take lightly. But if one is thorough and objective, I absolutely think that for some people simply paying the money will best serve their interests at particular schools.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

It's possible that my view on a variety of things could change post graduation or residency. Similar to what Q has mentioned, it's likely that I will see and learn many things that I could not have anticipated. However, anticipating that which I truly cannot know is out of my control. My goal when making big decisions is to consider this question: Did I make make my best effort to investigate and find all the relevant information that I could, and did I make a logical objective decision using this information? So long as I was painstakingly thorough and objective in my decision making, I seldom ever feel remorse or regret for decisions that I make.

This very much means making plans A, B, C, D, E, and F. I spent months making my decision for a reason. That process involved researching schools, contacting and speaking with professors at schools, speaking to current students, researching repayment plans and financial information, researching various career options (academics vs policy vs business vs private practice, etc), speaking with people in different professions, speaking with people who quit/delayed/turned down medical school, and looking back on my previous choices to make sure that I wasn't repeating mistakes I've made in the past or ignoring important lessons. If after the end of all this I make a choice and later think to myself, "Dang, I really didn't need to pay >$200,000 to go to this school", all I can do is shrug my shoulders and accept that I did my best to make an objective reasoned decision at the time. Even accounting for this eventuality is one of the things that I considered, and I had to do my best to assign that hypothetical scenario the proper weight (i.e. "If my plans change, how damaging will the lost flexibility of owing money be? What sort of career or lifestyle options will be sacrificed? How much do I value those career or lifestyle options and am I comfortable with the possibility of losing out on them? Etc").

It's not easy and it's a decision that I hope few people take lightly. But if one is thorough and objective, I absolutely think that for some people simply paying the money will best serve their interests at particular schools.

Thanks for elaborating!

 

[Cytarabine]

Speaking to 150k total debt (not a difference of 150k), I'd pick the elite school. 150k is not a lot of debt for med school and would be worth the cost to me, and this is coming from someone who applied early decision to state med school in large part for the lower cost

 

[Cytarabine]

Duplicate.

Edit: I want to do academics in a noncompetitive specialty in a clinical teaching capacity, not particularly interested in research