EM Docs, What would you have done instead?

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lemmonhead

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What would you have done if you didn't become an EM doc?

I'm reapplying to medical school and EM is really the only thing I can see myself doing. I realize I will probably change my mind but humor me :)

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High school biology teacher.

Or marry rich.
 
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Travel Photographer or astronomer....
 
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Internet troll.
 
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Locomotive engineer
 
What would you have done if you didn't become an EM doc?
I probably would've (should've?) stayed in computer science.
I'm reapplying to medical school and EM is really the only thing I can see myself doing. I realize I will probably change my mind but humor me :)
Really make sure you're at least ok with a career in medicine before you reapply. I know it's easier said than done. Medicine may sound prestigious and all, but there's so much you have to be willing to put up with to get through it all. From med school to residency to even as an attending. It might be worth it to you, but it might not. Just make sure you can jump into it with your eyes as wide open as possible. I know it's not entirely possible. But at least try to do a bit more to learn what medicine is really like than the average applicant seems to do to find out as much as is possible for someone not yet in medicine if it's really for you. That should be one of your main goals right now.

Just an idea or two to get you started:
  • Obviously shadow as much as you can. Not just one or two physicians but try to see different specialties if at all possible. Ask about pros and cons of their specialty if it's not overstepping boundaries to do so.
  • Read PandaBear's past (now archived on SDN) posts. Read @Birdstrike for cautionary tales but at the same times inspiring stories in EM. Read @emergentmd for someone who has done really well in EM and still recommends it. There are many other wonderful, knowledgeable, experienced, helpful people here like @The White Coat Investor, @emd123, etc. I think it's worth reading "101 Things You Wish You Knew Before Starting Med School", although keep in mind not everyone will be on board with everything Hoover has said. But I think he does make several points well worth considering.
  • Check out websites by emergency physicians in other parts of the world. See how they practice EM. In my opinion EM has a lot of international camaraderie too, which is also nice. For example, see here. The reason I recommend this is because it's often enlightening to compare how EM is in one nation or medical system to the system you know best (i.e. the US system) to cast light back on the system you know best. It's sort of like when you travel abroad, then you come back home, and you see home in a different light or perspective. Just my opinion though.
 
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I probably would've (should've?) stayed in computer science.

Really make sure you're at least ok with a career in medicine before you reapply. I know it's easier said than done. Medicine may sound prestigious and all, but there's so much you have to be willing to put up with to get through it all. From med school to residency to even as an attending. It might be worth it to you, but it might not. Just make sure you can jump into it with your eyes as wide open as possible. I know it's not entirely possible. But at least try to do a bit more to learn what medicine is really like than the average applicant seems to do to find out as much as is possible for someone not yet in medicine if it's really for you. That should be one of your main goals right now.

Just an idea or two to get you started:
  • Obviously shadow as much as you can. Not just one or two physicians but try to see different specialties if at all possible. Ask about pros and cons of their specialty if it's not overstepping boundaries to do so.
  • Read PandaBear's past (now archived on SDN) posts. Read @Birdstrike for cautionary tales but at the same times inspiring stories in EM. Read @emergentmd for someone who has done really well in EM and still recommends it. There are many other wonderful, knowledgeable, experienced, helpful people here like @The White Coat Investor, @emd123, etc. I think it's worth reading "101 Things You Wish You Knew Before Starting Med School", although keep in mind not everyone will be on board with everything Hoover has said. But I think he does make several points well worth considering.
  • Check out websites by emergency physicians in other parts of the world. See how they practice EM. In my opinion EM has a lot of international camaraderie too, which is also nice. For example, see here. The reason I recommend this is because it's often enlightening to compare how EM is in one nation or medical system to the system you know best (i.e. the US system) to cast light back on the system you know best. It's sort of like when you travel abroad, then you come back home, and you see home in a different light or perspective. Just my opinion though.

Thanks for your response. I was asking because I've just read so much about how unhappy and disgruntled doctors are and am starting to have second thoughts. I did a post-bacc and will be 29 when I start, if I get in this cycle. I'm not really hung up on the prestige element. I just want to do something I will enjoy.... Being a doc is something I have thought I wanted to do for a long time but am starting to have second thoughts given everything I've read. Although I realize there are people who are disgruntled in every field.

I will be starting as a scribe in the ED next week. Hopefully that will give me some solid exposure.
 
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Thanks for your response. I was asking because I've just read so much about how unhappy and disgruntled doctors are and am starting to have second thoughts. I did a post-bacc and will be 29 when I start, if I get in this cycle.
In all seriousness, I think it's more about finding the right fit for yourself personally. There's a huge difference in, for example, dermatology versus neurosurgery versus EM. They're all doctors but are so different they're completely different jobs. I think if you go into medicine with proper expectations and eyes wide open about where the bright spots are and where burnout territory is, you have a better short at finding the right fit for you. I'm pretty happy being a "doctor" but it took a lot of growing up, being honest with myself and making some drastic course corrections along the way when needed. I'm finally very content, and very happy and have an absolutely great job, as an Emergency Physician practicing an EM subspecialty yet I no longer work in an Emergency Department and have Dermatologist-like hours. It's been a rough road, but like most things worth a lot, it took quite a bit of fighting, scrapping and clawing to achieve.
 
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Like Bird, I'm concerned about the "only see myself as an EP" comment. It's pretty unlikely that your idea of what an EP does and what we actually do are the same thing (think all those Internet memes about "what I do"). I wouldn't be terribly concerned about your age (other than the salad days of bouncing back from night shifts quickly are going to be shorter) but I would have a rock solid understanding of what you are looking for out of a career in medicine and also why you wouldn't be satisfied doing anything else.
 
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Like Bird, I'm concerned about the "only see myself as an EP" comment. It's pretty unlikely that your idea of what an EP does and what we actually do are the same thing (think all those Internet memes about "what I do"). I wouldn't be terribly concerned about your age (other than the salad days of bouncing back from night shifts quickly are going to be shorter) but I would have a rock solid understanding of what you are looking for out of a career in medicine and also why you wouldn't be satisfied doing anything else.

I will be starting as a scribe next week so I'll definitely get a better idea of the day to day. I'm looking forward to this as I think it will help me decide either way.

In your opinion, what are the things that one should be looking to get out of a career in medicine? I realize the answers to this probably vary dramatically but I'm sure some answers are better than others.
 
I will be starting as a scribe next week so I'll definitely get a better idea of the day to day. I'm looking forward to this as I think it will help me decide either way.

In your opinion, what are the things that one should be looking to get out of a career in medicine? I realize the answers to this probably vary dramatically but I'm sure some answers are better than others.
It's a question you need to answer for yourself. Once you have your answer, we could offer some (possibly valid) feedback regarding the chance that you'll find those things in medicine. I was looking for a way to directly contribute to society that paid better than a teacher with a bonus of being able to understand how the human body works. At this point in my career, I'd say the first two objectives have been fully met. The last I realize is something of a fools errand, but at least I've learned to tell interesting stories to impress the laypeople.
 
Professor. (Working toward that goal though.)
 
It's a question you need to answer for yourself. Once you have your answer, we could offer some (possibly valid) feedback regarding the chance that you'll find those things in medicine. I was looking for a way to directly contribute to society that paid better than a teacher with a bonus of being able to understand how the human body works. At this point in my career, I'd say the first two objectives have been fully met. The last I realize is something of a fools errand, but at least I've learned to tell interesting stories to impress the laypeople.

Fair enough. Here goes.

In addition to having a general interest in the body, these are the things I have decided are important to me in my work and in roughly this order...

A career which provides social value. I worked for two years it a start-up and found the constant clamoring for dollars and requests to solve pretty meaningless problems draining.

Immediate gratification from solving fairly well defined problems. I lose interest if a problem if it is not resolved within a few days.

An outlet for the sensitive/compassionate/empathetic sides of my personality. The business world is, generally, also a terrible place for a person with these qualities.

Opportunities to work independently with relative autonomy. I can work as part of a team and do enjoy it but I would rather call upon someone when I need help with something.

Variety in my day to day work. While I see the value of routine in daily living, I do not necessarily value it in my work as I get bored with repetitive tasks.

Opportunities to teach. I taught in China and enjoyed it immensely. However, I prefer to work with small groups or one on one with students.

A job where I am physically active. Sitting at a desk all day is the pits.

Job security. Being unemployed sucks.


Things I want but am concerned that a career in medicine may not provide/would make me a bad fit…

Flexibility. I realize this may not come until much later but it is important to me that I have it at some point in my life. As @bashwell mentions, you have to but in the time to get what you want.

Edit: @Birdstrike

That is pretty much it at this point. Feedback welcome.
 
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Fair enough. Here goes.

In addition to having a general interest in the body, these are the things I have decided are important to me in my work and in roughly this order...

A career which provides social value. I worked for two years it a start-up and found the constant clamoring for dollars and requests to solve pretty meaningless problems draining.

Immediate gratification from solving fairly well defined problems. I lose interest if a problem if it is not resolved within a few days.

An outlet for the sensitive/compassionate/empathetic sides of my personality. The business world is, generally, also a terrible place for a person with these qualities.

Opportunities to work independently with relative autonomy. I can work as part of a team and do enjoy it but I would rather call upon someone when I need help with something.

Variety in my day to day work. While I see the value of routine in daily living, I do not necessarily value it in my work as I get bored with repetitive tasks.

Opportunities to teach. I taught in China and enjoyed it immensely. However, I prefer to work with small groups or one on one with students.

A job where I am physically active. Sitting at a desk all day is the pits.

Job security. Being unemployed sucks.


Things I want but am concerned that a career in medicine may not provide/would make me a bad fit…

Flexibility. I realize this may not come until much later but it is important to me that I have it at some point in my life. As @bashwell mentions, you have to but in the time to get what you want.

Edit: @Birdstrike

That is pretty much it at this point. Feedback welcome.

It's very rare that a pre-med ever says anything reasonable on this forum, so you may be the first. Your description of what you want sounds very well reasoned and thought out. All the reasons you give--and the wants you have--are definitely a good fit for Emergency Medicine.

I also worked for a start up before and I realized I couldn't dedicate my life to making a doodad (sp?). Even I founded facebook I wouldn't have been satisfied with that. It seems menial to me. (I say this even though I realize his world impact is way greater than mine, but still, at the end of the day he created a website that wastes people's time and invades their privacy.)

Sorry for typos. Using phone to type.
 
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Thanks for the feedback. Good to hear I'm on the right track. Still looking forward to doing some more shadowing. I think I'm just a little pissed off from having to rewrite all these f****ing secondaries. Hoops on hoops on hoops.

Totally agree with you on the founding of FB. While one could argue FB offers some social value, http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-04/27/facebook-google-nepal-earthquake-emergency-response, it is generally a time suck. And the number of worthless apps being created in Silicon Valley right now is astonishing.

On a separate note, you didn't happen to develop Angry Birds did you?


It's very rare that a pre-med ever says anything reasonable on this forum, so you may be the first. Your description of what you want sounds very well reasoned and thought out. All the reasons you give--and the wants you have--are definitely a good fit for Emergency Medicine.

I also worked for a start up before and I realized I couldn't dedicate my life to making a doodad (sp?). Even I founded facebook I wouldn't have been satisfied with that. It seems menial to me. (I say this even though I realize his world impact is way greater than mine, but still, at the end of the day he created a website that wastes people's time and invades their privacy.)

Sorry for typos. Using phone to type.
 
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Thanks for the feedback. Good to hear I'm on the right track. Still looking forward to doing some more shadowing. I think I'm just a little pissed off from having to rewrite all these f****ing secondaries. Hoops on hoops on hoops.

Totally agree with you on the founding of FB. While one could argue FB offers some social value, http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-04/27/facebook-google-nepal-earthquake-emergency-response, it is generally a time suck. And the number of worthless apps being created in Silicon Valley right now is astonishing.

On a separate note, you didn't happen to develop Angry Birds did you?

Haha! I wish I created Angry Birds!!!
 
This Bashwell guy is all-right. Its nice to have another "good regular" poster on here.

Good thread on the whole, too.

Other jobs/careers I have considered:

1.) OTR trucker (I love seeing America by the roadways... hate the idea of developing five or so DVTs).
2.) Geologist.
3.) Biology Professor.
4.) Local golf club pro (need to improve my game; but it can be done).
5.) For a bit in college there I considered journalist (then I sobered up).
 
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Wedding planner.

Health-care liaison (now that I know medical lingo and the system - charge rich people lots of $$$ to help them navigate the system, and use their $$$ to take on some pro-bono clients who really need the help. Kinda like Robin Hood). ;)

Be homeless in a nice (warm) city, wander around to medical conferences and eat free food. You could pull it off pretty easily, with at least one decent set of clothes, the right demeanor, and access to a shower.
 
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Trump-hair stylist!
 
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I'm glad you're thinking about these things, OP. It's really good that you're seeking advice before diving headfirst into medicine.

That said, I hope you won't mind if I play a little devil's advocate here? Not trying to dissuade you from medicine at all. But rather just trying to inject some realism -- at least as I see it, and like everyone else I have my biases, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt, and as you've been doing, continuing asking for other perspectives.

If you want a career in healthcare, there's also physicians assistant, AA, nurse (e.g. NP, CRNA), physiotherapist, occupational therapist, dentist (e.g. oral maxillofacial surgeon, endodontist), etc. These are all likewise respectable jobs that provide plenty of social value. Some of these pay very well and have far better hours than many if not most physicians, not to mention less training involved, less liability, etc. (Lots of physicians have been sued, and EM is regularly exposed to the prospect of law suits more so than many other specialties, though most of these law suits are thrown out, I believe. But it can still be a personally and emotionally stressful and time-consuming ordeal, like having to attend dispositions with lawyers and so on, even if the law suit ends up getting thrown out.)

More broadly speaking, lots of other careers provide social value. Jobs like janitorial work in the hospital or cleaning ORs after operations and so forth are often underappreciated jobs too, yet a lot of good things that happen couldn't happen without their dedicated work and service.

Start-ups are always a bit dicey though. The fact that they're a start-up is why they're always clamoring for money. Not sure if they're the best representative of how life is in the rest of the computer or tech industry, to say nothing of other industries. And I say this as someone very familiar with start-ups as well as the computer industry as I worked for a big famous computer/tech "household name" company that everyone would instantly recognize. The place I worked for was pretty awesome. I sometimes miss it. Anyway, point being, if you can work for a good place that treats you and others especially its customers well while you're doing work you enjoy, where you have a lot of chances to imagine and share your own ideas, to innovate, to create, which has opportunities for you to move into leadership positions, etc., then the work might not be so "meaningless" after all.

That's true of EM, but it's also true of other specialties (e.g. anesthesiology). It's also true of other non-physician jobs like being a CRNA or AA or PA in EM.

EM gets undifferentiated patients. Not sure that fits your "well defined problems" category. In addition, you might never know the patient's specific diagnosis.

The business world is a pretty broad place. It really depends. I'm like you -- sensitive, etc. But maybe surprisingly I found quite a lot sensitivity, compassion, and empathy in the IT/tech industry, just as one example. Especially among fellow geeks. I'm sure there are other examples in other industries (e.g. working for a charity like the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation).

You can and should be compassionate with patients. Although you also have to be firm with patients sometimes too. Sometimes the best way to be compassionate is to take a tough stance with patients.

At the same time, it's more than possible to suffer compassion fatigue in medicine.

Medicine itself is a hierarchy. Residency can be a brutal rite of passage. You won't necessarily get a lot of compassion as you work your way through med school all the way to becoming an attending. In a sense, medicine is sort of like the military. Obviously it's not the military, but there's a sense in which there's a chain of command, orders are given, need to be followed through, lots of grunt work as you move up towards attending, irregular hours, people barking orders or yelling at you, you're expected to work hard and never complain or at least bite your lips when tempted to complain to attendings or patients, it's difficult to publicly express signs of weakness even though we all are weak in certain ways, there's a certain culture in medicine and in fact subcultures within each specialty which sometimes becomes a bit too much like how the Navy or Army or Air Force might talk badly about one another despite all being on the same team ultimately, etc. Sensitive type of people can be at risk of succumbing to internal breakdowns and the like in the midst of all this.

Also, while emergency physicians are generally compassionate people, I think you could also say they're pretty thick skinned people. You pretty much have to be in order to deal with all the crazy that comes through the ED. If you're too sensitive and empathetic, it might actually be a problem which could impede appropriate patient care.

EM is all about team work. You have to constantly coordinate with lots of different people, from nurses to paramedics to specialists who hate you for calling them up at 3am to come and evaluate or assess a patient, etc.

As a junior doctor you'll have to eventually learn how to lead rather than calling upon others or relying on them. You'll have to be groomed to be in charge of the ED. In this respect you'll be independent and autonomous.

You're also independent and autonomous in that you can work a shift and you're basically done and generally don't need to take the work home with you or be on call. You're not forever ball-and-chained to patients. Although sometimes you can't help but think about things or internalize things especially if you're a sensitive and empathetic type of a person.

However, you're not independent and autonomous in that there's always (mild to severe) pressure from the hospital or others to move the meat. You will have performance reviews (Press Ganey) to see stuff like how much patients liked you and how quickly you discharge patients. You'll always be under observation indirectly or directly by specialists who may second guess you or otherwise challenge your clinical decision and judgments as well as by virtually everyone else in the hospital including hospital admin since the ED is a big "fish bowl."

Medicine can be exciting. Especially specialties like EM, ICU, anesthesiology, surgical specialties, other procedural specialties like interventional cardiology or interventional radiology. For example, med students and even residents often love doing procedures. But once you become an attending, and have done your 1000th procedure, it might not be so exciting anymore. In fact, it might just get in the way of or otherwise impede work flow. Everything becomes "routine" after a while, which is in a way a very good thing since it means you've become expert enough so it has become routine, but at the same time I'm just saying don't think medicine including EM can't become routine.

Not to mention your interests may change as you progress in medicine and life in general. What you like in your 20s may not be what you like in your 40s or 50s. (I'm in my early 30s but already feeling some of this.) It'll take some personal introspection to be able to try and reflect on stuff like who you are, what you like and dislike, where you can realistically see yourself going and doing, etc.

Actually, working in EM requires plenty of multi-tasking. If you want one on one in medicine, it's probably best to do something which mainly involves outpatients. Something like family medicine or general pediatrics (although these specialties have their own pros and cons). They just see one patient at a time. Scheduled appointments too. If someone is very late, you are usually in control of whether to see them or reschedule them. Not like in the ED where anyone and anything can just suddenly show up on the doorstep and EMTALA requires you screen and if necessary stabilize or transfer them.

In the ED, you have to be able to handle the chaos and multi-task really well, take care of multiple patients at the same time, follow-up with radiology, cardiology, neurology, and/or all the other services you might need to follow-up with for not just one but all your patients, at the same time prioritize if a trauma suddenly rolls in, then get back to your patients once it's over, all the while keeping everyone happy including your patients who often think they should've been seen "sooner," etc. EM physicians tend to be the type of people who can learn to manage and indeed thrive in the chaos.

This applies to lots of other jobs outside of medicine as well as lots of other specialties within medicine.

Very true unemployment sucks.

Doctors have great job security compared to lots of other jobs.

At the same time, don't think all doctors will always be able to find jobs. See the pathology market for example.

Even in emergency medicine, while you should always be able to find a job in the foreseeable future, you may not necessarily be able to find your ideal job, especially if you want to end up in a desirable place. Or you may have to settle for less money and/or worse hours or something else in order to have this job. If you're part of a group, then in some locales you could face another bigger group sweeping in and outbidding you and thus losing your contract for a hospital(s). But if you have a family and are settled in an area, and can't move, then you may have to end up working for this new group which you may or may not like. Read The Rape of Emergency Medicine.

To be fair, this applies to other specialties too (e.g. anesthesiology with AMCs). Plus, EM is a lot more flexible than many other specialties. But I'm just saying don't think job security is necessarily a given, even in medicine. Or at least not without its share of sacrifices.

Again, not trying to dissuade you from medicine, OP. Or from EM. There are a lot of good aspects about EM as well. But I'm just mentioning all this as a sort of reality check, or at least to hopefully give you a better perspective on some of the issues involved. Medicine is a good and even great career for the right person, but it's not perfect by any means, and it's certainly not intrinsically better than or more valuable or superior to many other good careers.

I really appreciate your responses. Your thoughts have definitely given me more to chew on. Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I have been slammed with secondaries, scribe training and work.

A few things...
I recently began scribing and it occurred to me that it seems a fool’s errand to try and decide what I want to do now in medicine. Being present for various consults has made me curious about the variety of other specialties available. I am also planning to speak with PAs, NPs, and RNs to get a better sense of where I might fit. Since coming to this conclusion I feel much more relaxed.

Regarding the liability issue and the stress associated with this aspect of the profession, I do find it concerning and is something I will look into further. Do you find that this would be reason enough to avoid/leave the profession?

Does the fact that you too are sensitive impact your work dramatically or has training taught you when to employ sensitivity and when to be, as you say, thick skinned? Would perhaps choose a different career/different specialty?

When I say variety, I should have clarified that I did not simply mean procedurally/diagnostically. In addition to those things I meant the variety of people you encounter on a daily basis and also the opportunities for different job functions, like teaching. When I meant I like teaching one -on-one I was thinking more along the lines of resident/attending interaction.

And thanks to everyone else for the feedback! You have all been very helpful.
 
In all seriousness, I think it's more about finding the right fit for yourself personally. There's a huge difference in, for example, dermatology versus neurosurgery versus EM. They're all doctors but are so different they're completely different jobs. I think if you go into medicine with proper expectations and eyes wide open about where the bright spots are and where burnout territory is, you have a better short at finding the right fit for you. I'm pretty happy being a "doctor" but it took a lot of growing up, being honest with myself and making some drastic course corrections along the way when needed. I'm finally very content, and very happy and have an absolutely great job, as an Emergency Physician practicing an EM subspecialty yet I no longer work in an Emergency Department and have Dermatologist-like hours. It's been a rough road, but like most things worth a lot, it took quite a bit of fighting, scrapping and clawing to achieve.

Now I'm curious, what did you end up doing after er residency that's not in an er?
 
Now I'm curious, what did you end up doing after er residency that's not in an er?

I did a fellowship in a subspecialty of EM that allows me to not have to work in an emergency department if I don't want to. So I'm still in EM (sort of) but not in an "ER" anymore. But I have the option to do as much, or as little EM as I want to, since I've maintained my EM boards along with the subspecialty boards. It's made me much happier with much greater job satisfaction with the ability to control my life and hours and be rested all the time without constant shift-work circadian-rhythm dysphoria. I'm going to post something more specific about this soon, but it's nothing ground breaking, earth shattering or anything others haven't done. The only reason I haven't been more specific was due to anonymity during the early stages of leaving my last job, the fellowship interview process, job interviews and transition period, etc, but I'm beyond all that now and I don't really care much about that anymore.
 
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High School Gym teacher.
 
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I did a fellowship in a subspecialty of EM that allows me to not have to work in an emergency department if I don't want to. So I'm still in EM (sort of) but not in an "ER" anymore. But I have the option to do as much, or as little EM as I want to, since I've maintained my EM boards along with the subspecialty boards. It's made me much happier with much greater job satisfaction with the ability to control my life and hours and be rested all the time without constant shift-work circadian-rhythm dysphoria. I'm going to post something more specific about this soon, but it's nothing ground breaking, earth shattering or anything others haven't done. The only reason I haven't been more specific was due to anonymity during the early stages of leaving my last job, the fellowship interview process, job interviews and transition period, etc, but I'm beyond all that now and I don't really care much about that anymore.

Thanks for the reply. I've always been on the fence about the benefits of doing fellowships in EM. It always seemed to me like they will just decrease your salary and only give you the benefit of applying for a teaching job in that area. It's good to hear it worked out for someone. I'm looking forward to to that post.
 
Well, I think many EM folks say that you need to figure out your get-out strategy, or to diversify interests. Yeah you might take a pay cut, but from what I've been told, your ability to do the nights, and tolerate the crazy high volume days usually will go down over time, so in EM there is a strong interest to diversify your interests so you can do other things that aren't as intense and still make a living. It's like diversifying your assets on your financial portfolio, to an extent.

Also, EM people have ADHD on the whole...we constantly need something new to focus on anyway, so that's another reason why fellowships may be pursued.

Granted I'm not an attending or resident here, but that's what I've been told.

If I wasn't going medicine, I'd either be an architect, or go into tech. Being a teacher would be fun too.
 
If I wasn't going medicine, I'd either be an architect, or go into tech.

I doubt the EM personality would translate well into architecture. I tried it for 4 years and ended up hating it in the end. Maybe if press ganey gets you excited, because archs are ****** for the client's desires.
 
Maybe if press ganey gets you excited, because archs are ****** for the client's desires.
Lol

If Press Ganey gets you...lol

If Press Ganey gets you excited...lol

If Press Ganey gets you excited you should...lol. Forget it, I can't....lol


.




.






Just listen to Astral Weeks by Van Morrison, okay. That'll make everything better.
 
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