EMERGENCY MEDICINE 2015-2016 Thread

[runningallthetime]

Honestly at this point your best best is prelims surg or med. Do not underestimate the competitiveness of transitional years...competing with all the derm, rad onc, anesth and radiology big wigs. Go on Frieda website look up a bunch of prelims and just shell out the cash, DO NOT rely on the SOAP, seeing friends go through it, it is like a black hole where nothing is promised!!! Alter your essay, use the same letters minus the bad one and apply to 35 or 40 prelim surg and med programs if you want. But only if you feel that you are kinda screwed and would rather match into something than nothing at all!! I am not and I repeat NOT saying you need to initiate plan B just yet...but it can't hurt to get the wheels in motion so come Monday you say yes I want to pull the trigger, at least you are ready to do so!!

lol whats on monday? and on that note, how many interviews at this point is safe enough to not apply for a backup?

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[HoosierdaddyO]

I just used Monday as an arbitrary day to allow cookie to think it over the weekend, as to whether he wants to proceed with plan b or not. Plus it'll give him a few days to get his plan b moving (just bc you get plan b moving doesn't mean that you need to actually apply tho). I am by no means an expert but I would think at least 3-4 interviews. Granted keep in mind that some dates are still open, few and far between but they are still there. Also don't be surprised if you are able to pick up a handful of last minute interviews during Christmas and New Years time...as that is the time where most people if they where to cancel would cancel those late January interviews. You don't need to have a plan b but if it'll make you feel more secure and less freaked out, whats another couple hundred in apps for prelims...just my two cents!!

 

[ineedadoctor89]

I appreciate all the replies to my original post. I think I'm going to have to start working on plan B. My away rotation did not go well. I debated not using the SLOE but ultimately did because I figured not using it could be an even bigger red flag. In hindsight, maybe I shouldn't have . I applied extremely broadly to 100+ programs. I still only have 2 interviews, 15 rejections, probably a lot of silent rejections at this point too if that's a thing.

I think a transitional year would be the best option, but I'm having a hard time even getting information from my adviser or dean about how many programs I need to apply to. Any idea where I can get some info on less competitive TY programs? Is it possible to SOAP into prelim medicine? I know TY fills.

Out of curiosity, were you at least given any indication that your SLOE would be positive?

 

[cookiecrumbles]

It really wasn't a good rotation for me. I didn't feel like I was part of the team in the ED for a number of reasons, some of them just related to how the rotation was set up in a way that made me feel like an outsider. I always asked for feedback and was told I was doing well. The Pass grade was a surprise and I guess it came with negative comments given how few interviews I've received. I also haven't been invited to interview there, which I think is probably a bad sign.

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

That stinks that one month can make or break 4 years of hard work. These things are total crap shoots. Hope things break your way!! Btw totally curious which program this was to warn future students lol?

 

[Cinematographer]

If you guys/gals get a chance, head to the "Where Did You Have a *great* EM Rotation?" thread and comment on your experience while your memory of those rotations is still fresh.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/where-did-you-have-a-great-student-em-rotation.114708/page-2

 

[cyanide12345678]

That stinks that one month can make or break 4 years of hard work. These things are total crap shoots. Hope things break your way!! Btw totally curious which program this was to warn future students lol?

Definitely seems like away rotations seem to be one of the most important factors. People with average board scores but 3 SLOEs with honors are getting interviews from the best of the best places in what I've seen.

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

I've been told by every EM advisor, and it's even noted on that page where specialties rate what's most important to them that sloes are like a 4.8/5 in importance. That is more that the step scores, being AOA, third year grades etc etc etc. These sloes can either make or break your application!!

 

[cyanide12345678]

I shouldn't have done an away at one of the best programs in the country -_- Only ended up being average there (high pass). That killed my application at all the programs that I REALLLY wanted. Should have gone to a mediocre program and shined there lol.

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

I shouldn't have done an away at one of the best programs in the country -_- Only ended up being average there (high pass). That killed my application at all the programs that I REALLLY wanted. Should have gone to a mediocre program and shined there lol.

I feel ya, I guess just try to make the best out of the situation that you are currently in :/. I've always been a proponent of doing aways at mid to low tiered programs. A sloe is a sloe, and an amazing sloe from a low tiered program I can only assume looks better than an average sloe from a monster program, you just have so many more opportunities to stand out and look special!!

 

[Jlaw]

Have you guys been experiencing any regional biases with your interview invites? It's interesting how I've gotten a few interviews at more local programs that are historically more competitive and were "reach programs" for me. But other historically "less competitive programs" that are located out of state are completely overlooking me. I did an away rotation in the midwest too and it seems like fly-over country is showing me no love.

Not complaining, I feel grateful to have interviews. Just wondering how big a role geography plays a role in all this.

Yes my invites have all been from programs in my region while the declines have been from places far flung.

All you guys worrying need to chill, interviews have been offered for the past 4 weeks, 2 weeks in some cases. This is first round. There will be 2nd and 3rd round interview offers later this month and in December/early January. If there is one thing I've learned from audition season is that even the people who got "pass" or didn't interview until January 25th matched.

 

[Jlaw]

I shouldn't have done an away at one of the best programs in the country -_- Only ended up being average there (high pass). That killed my application at all the programs that I REALLLY wanted. Should have gone to a mediocre program and shined there lol.

You realize PD's all talk and know each others grading strategies, right? If they are known and really that strict with grades a high pass would be worth more than honors elsewhere. Thats what PD's have told me at the programs I've rotated at. They don't care if you honored at an osteopathic program in west bumblef*ck that no one has ever heard of.

 

[racerwad]

I shouldn't have done an away at one of the best programs in the country -_- Only ended up being average there (high pass). That killed my application at all the programs that I REALLLY wanted. Should have gone to a mediocre program and shined there lol.

That is not true at all. PDs are very aware of what programs are like and the caliber of students that tend to go there. Not getting honors at a "best program" kind of place is not necessarily a death sentence. You are most likely totally fine.

I feel ya, I guess just try to make the best out of the situation that you are currently in :/. I've always been a proponent of doing aways at mid to low tiered programs. A sloe is a sloe, and an amazing sloe from a low tiered program I can only assume looks better than an average sloe from a monster program, you just have so many more opportunities to stand out and look special!!

Like everything in life, it isn't an apples to apples comparison. It definitely makes a difference to go to more competitive places, even if you only get a high pass. It isn't a zero sum game where the students who get honors are good at everything and you are just sitting in the corner, useless. There are a lot of positive traits you can showcase at places like these and be noticed for it. I would much rather go to Vandy and get a high pass than go to a place like @Jlaw described. In fact, I did something similar and I spent more time explaining where said unknown program was than anything else during an interview. It is analogous to students coming from well known med schools - it is assumed that even if a given Harvard grad wasn't AOA, they still probably have a lot more going for them than someone who aced their junior college courses.

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

While I agree wholeheartedly...when you are reading a sloe that says amazing things and top 1/3 for everything...even if it's from a low tiered acgme program. You don't think that sticks out. The only point I guess I'm trying to make is that if a stud goes to a slightly easier rotation, you don't think they will shine comparatively speaking...maybe it all evens out, what the heck do I know lol!!

 

[racerwad]

While I agree wholeheartedly...when you are reading a sloe that says amazing things and top 1/3 for everything...even if it's from a low tiered acgme program. You don't think that sticks out. The only point I guess I'm trying to make is that if a stud goes to a slightly easier rotation, you don't think they will shine comparatively speaking...maybe it all evens out, what the heck do I know lol!!

You're right, good is good. I guess my point is that "bad," isn't always bad. When PDs don't know a program well or if they are suspicious about the rigor of a rotation, they really focus on the comments; same holds true for a meh SLOE from a big name place - they'll go to the comments section to see what their peers said about the student. There is more to your SLOEs than your grades, they just stick out because that's usually all we see as med students.

 

[DO2016EM]

Thoughts on how early is too early to notify a program that they are your number 1? I know interviews for the most part are just about to start, so would it be weird or poor form to tell a program within the first week of November that is the top program on your list?

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

Thoughts on how early is too early to notify a program that they are your number 1? I know interviews for the most part are just about to start, so would it be weird or poor form to tell a program within the first week of November that is the top program on your list?

Yes lol... I'd say about 3 months too early!!

 

[DO2016EM]

Yes lol... I'd say about 3 months too early!!

Lol I'm glad I asked here first before doing anything.

 

[deleted720339]

I've had three residents tell me to email the PD of the program you rank #1 after you submit your final rank list in February. All three matched at their number 1.

 

[runningallthetime]

I've had three residents tell me to email the PD of the program you rank #1 after you submit your final rank list in February. All three matched at their number 1.

if you dont mind me asking, how does that help? arent their rank lists due the same time yours is?

 

[deleted720339]

Absolutely, thanks for the clarification question. I meant to say *before* and not after submitting your rank list. As in, prior to submitting your rank list letting your #1 know they are your #1. Again, n=3.

 

[cyanide12345678]

You realize PD's all talk and know each others grading strategies, right? If they are known and really that strict with grades a high pass would be worth more than honors elsewhere. Thats what PD's have told me at the programs I've rotated at. They don't care if you honored at an osteopathic program in west bumblef*ck that no one has ever heard of.

Well that's what my clerkship director said too. But right now my class is averaging at 16 interviews in EM. My board scores and class rank is much higher than the average of my class, yet I have less than average number of invites compared to my class peers (significantly less). I think a honors at a decent reputation place, like UT Houston, or Texas A&M, is probably much better than a high pass at a place like Carolinas, Cincinnati, Indiana. If I had to do it again, I'd do an away at a top 50 program instead of a top 3.

 

[StephBee]

Well that's what my clerkship director said too. But right now my class is averaging at 16 interviews in EM. My board scores and class rank is much higher than the average of my class, yet I have less than average number of invites compared to my class peers (significantly less). I think a honors at a decent reputation place, like UT Houston, or Texas A&M, is probably much better than a high pass at a place like Carolinas, Cincinnati, Indiana. If I had to do it again, I'd do an away at a top 50 program instead of a top 3.

I hate to say it but I don't think it's your away grade. I only have HP on both my home EM rotations, no always, 1 sloe and I'm sitting on 14 invites. So this whole process is a total crap shoot.

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

Please someone for the sake of humanity answer me why people are going on 16 plus interviews...lol like I just don't get this craziness?!?!?!? 200 plus applicants as per 2014 who went on 16 plus...I'm sure that most if not all were not couples matching lol.

 

[StephBee]

Please someone for the sake of humanity answer me why people are going on 16 plus interviews...lol like I just don't get this craziness?!?!?!? 200 plus applicants as per 2014 who went on 16 plus...I'm sure that most if not all were not couples matching lol.

If the invites come, I'll technically have 16 programs to rank. 12 EM and 4 EM/IM. Won't be doing more than 12 EM unless clutch top interviews come out.

There's a weird balance it seems between wanting to be selfish and go on all the interviews and being more picky so others can have your spot. It's far easier to be selfish when not confront with the people you are screwing over so to speak. So people tend to not think of the person who won't get an invite because you accepted your 20th interview. That's the game I guess.

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

I honestly don't have issues with the 12 to 16 range, it's those that feel the need to go on more than 16, and the sad part is that there are people even in my home institution who are set on goin on 22 interviews. Like please don't get me wrong folks I'm sitting pretty with my 12, but there are fellow candidates out there who are just scraping by with low single digits who are just as deserving. Part of me says they are your interviews to do as you please...but the golden rule part of me says..."ya know what, I'm certainly gonna match with 14 vs 20, why don't I do the right thing and maybe drop that one that I'm not so crazy about and only go on 19". The selfishness of some applicants truly baffles the humanistic aspect of me...alright rant over lol!!

 

[Cinclus]

I honestly don't have issues with the 12 to 16 range, it's those that feel the need to go on more than 16, and the sad part is that there are people even in my home institution who are set on goin on 22 interviews. Like please don't get me wrong folks I'm sitting pretty with my 12, but there are fellow candidates out there who are just scraping by with low single digits who are just as deserving. Part of me says they are your interviews to do as you please...but the golden rule part of me says..."ya know what, I'm certainly gonna match with 14 vs 20, why don't I do the right thing and maybe drop that one that I'm not so crazy about and only go on 19". The selfishness of some applicants truly baffles the humanistic aspect of me...alright rant over lol!!

I think a lot of the 16+ people will eventually drop some for the sake of their own sanity. Once you've gone on a bunch of interviews, you will tire out.

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

While I agree and while I hope so...you do have to recognize how much that messes with other people's schedules canceling interviews that late in the season...as opposed to taking a long hard look in mirror and dropping that 1 or 2 less infatuating programs now (and still being above 16 after they drop those few), so as to give other people the ability to schedule them.

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

I'm a numbers guy always have always will be....there makes zero, and I mean zero logical sense to go on more than 16 interviews...unless you are either couples matching or riddled with red flags but you cured fibromyalgia kind of situation to get you to 16 interviews. For all others it's just gluttonous in my book :/...I sound like the Bernie sanders of interview invites...damn you, you 1 percenters lol!!!

 

[Cinclus]

I'm a numbers guy always have always will be....there makes zero, and I mean zero logical sense to go on more than 16 interviews...unless you are either couples matching or riddled with red flags but you cured fibromyalgia kind of situation to get you to 16 interviews. For all others it's just gluttonous in my book :/...I sound like the Bernie sanders of interview invites...damn you, you 1 percenters lol!!!

I have received over 20 invites at this point (have been canceling and just canceled another today; I straight-up withdrew apps early on from programs I was less interested in once the invites started flowing faster than expected). If some other applicants are like me, they are probably still holding onto an excessive number of interviews because they did apply to those programs for a reason (I have canceled with several programs I believe would have been a good "fit" for me), and they are torn between the desire to interview at certain programs and the logical realization that they cannot handle that many interviews, practically. They then go through all the reasons why they think they would rather interview at one place over another, all while not having actually experienced these programs in person. Having excessive interview invites is certainly a good problem to have, though it can present its own struggles, lol. I didn't expect so many invites, and now I'm trying to make careful, logical decisions while in the midst of less-logical desires. This is my interpretation for why it does take some time to see movement, just based on my own experience. The movement should happen, though.

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

I have received over 20 invites at this point (have been canceling and just canceled another today; I straight-up withdrew apps early on from programs I was less interested in once the invites started flowing faster than expected). If some other applicants are like me, they are probably still holding onto an excessive number of interviews because they did apply to those programs for a reason (I have canceled with several programs I believe would have been a good "fit" for me), and they are torn between the desire to interview at certain programs and the logical realization that they cannot handle that many interviews, practically. They then go through all the reasons why they think they would rather interview at one place over another, all while not having actually experienced these programs in person. Having excessive interview invites is certainly a good problem to have, though it can present its own struggles, lol. I didn't expect so many invites, and now I'm trying to make careful, logical decisions while in the midst of less-logical desires. This is my interpretation for why it does take some time to see movement, just based on my own experience. The movement should happen, though.

I respect that

 

[HumerusBaker]

Agree with Cinclus. Well put!

Trying to decide where will be a better fit based on hearsay and the Internet is really difficult. I applied to these places because I was legitimately interested. The fact that in the next two weeks I'll be in 5 states and am already exhausted means I'll force myself to drop more but I'm still figuring out which ones (they'd be dates in December and January)...

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

With a great # of interviews, comes great responsibility lol

 

[EMFossil]

I am hearing that most people have 10+ interviews. I am sitting at 8 right now. Should I be worried?

250+ step 1 and 2, MD school, high pass/high pass/pass SLOE's...

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

I'd consider 8 to be a decent amount of invites...it's definitely a matchable number of invites. If you can squeak out 2 more before the season is over I'd say your golden. What do others think lol?!

 

[deleted720339]

Agreed. Gotta trust the NRMP data. 10-12 should be golden.

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

Soooo after looking at all my interview broker dates etc...I am inclined to think that most if not all invites have been given out at this point, and it's bottle necked to the point that the only real movement here on out is due to cancelations?!? I don't want to underestimate how much movement those potential future cancellations by fellow applicants can create, but it seems that's where we are in this fun process lol!!

 

[TBoneKoko]

Soooo after looking at all my interview broker dates etc...I am inclined to think that most if not all invites have been given out at this point, and it's bottle necked to the point that the only real movement here on out is due to cancelations?!? I don't want to underestimate how much movement those potential future cancellations by fellow applicants can create, but it seems that's where we are in this fun process lol!!

That seems accurate based on my # of invites per week (1, 5, 9, 7, 4, 1, and 0 so far this week).

 

[cyanide12345678]

Soooo after looking at all my interview broker dates etc...I am inclined to think that most if not all invites have been given out at this point, and it's bottle necked to the point that the only real movement here on out is due to cancelations?!? I don't want to underestimate how much movement those potential future cancellations by fellow applicants can create, but it seems that's where we are in this fun process lol!!

Agreed. No more invites left for the programs I have on interview broker. I think after 5-6 interviews, the travelling will start taking a toll and the folks with 16+ interviews are going to start dropping. So likely movement at the end of November.

 

[alpinism]

There are still plenty of programs (especially in NYC) who have only given out about 2/3 of their total interviews.

In addition, many of the less desirable programs that are currently full will start to have spots open up over the next month as people with 20+ interviews start to cancel them.

 

[Adamb83]

.

 

[pogonotroph]

Hey guys. If anyone wants to look for a direct interview date swap, I just necrobumped this old thread. I'm honestly not sure how feasible swapping dates is with different programs, but perhaps it'll be useful for some of us?

 

[5739]

I honestly don't have issues with the 12 to 16 range, it's those that feel the need to go on more than 16, and the sad part is that there are people even in my home institution who are set on goin on 22 interviews. Like please don't get me wrong folks I'm sitting pretty with my 12, but there are fellow candidates out there who are just scraping by with low single digits who are just as deserving. Part of me says they are your interviews to do as you please...but the golden rule part of me says..."ya know what, I'm certainly gonna match with 14 vs 20, why don't I do the right thing and maybe drop that one that I'm not so crazy about and only go on 19". The selfishness of some applicants truly baffles the humanistic aspect of me...alright rant over lol!!

I'm a numbers guy always have always will be....there makes zero, and I mean zero logical sense to go on more than 16 interviews...unless you are either couples matching or riddled with red flags but you cured fibromyalgia kind of situation to get you to 16 interviews. For all others it's just gluttonous in my book :/...I sound like the Bernie sanders of interview invites...damn you, you 1 percenters lol!!!

All this hysteria about how many interviews other people go on makes no sense. The true test of whether an applicant's "selfishness" actually impacted anyone else is whether there are unfilled spots after the match. We know this is not the case for EM. So despite the fact that it may seem like going on lots of interviews takes away opportunity from others, that's not the end outcome.

FYI, I went on 10 interviews last year and couldn't imagine having done more. I was so burnt out by the end I could barely muster a good attitude.

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

All this hysteria about how many interviews other people go on makes no sense. The true test of whether an applicant's "selfishness" actually impacted anyone else is whether there are unfilled spots after the match. We know this is not the case for EM. So despite the fact that it may seem like going on lots of interviews takes away opportunity from others, that's not the end outcome.

FYI, I went on 10 interviews last year and couldn't imagine having done more. I was so burnt out by the end I could barely muster a good attitude.

I guess we respectfully agree to disagree at least pertaining to your first point. Just hypothetically speaking...you have over 250 people going on 16 plus interviews. If each of those canceled 2 interviews, that's and influx of 500 invites that could be given else where all the meanwhile not affecting the match success of any of those 250 applicants. Now those new 500 invites might not be a huge deal for those with 10-13 interviews already, but to say that it doesn't have an effect on those with less than 6 interviews for example (and there is an overwhelming number of applicants in this scary situation) and their ability to match successfully would be dishonest at best. There were 96 USMD students in 2014 that had less than 6 invites and didn't match...try explaining to those 96 students how if they maybe could have gotten a few more invites that it wouldn't have "impacted" their chances lol.

As for your second point I agree. Went on two interviews so far and I'm already a little tired.

 

[AmericaAmerica]

There were 96 USMD students in 2014 that had less than 6 invites and didn't match...try explaining to those 96 students how if they maybe could have gotten a few more invites that it wouldn't have "impacted" their chances lol.

Is this from NRMP? Can you upload or link to document with these stats? I've been curious about this stuff for a long time, but couldn't find this much detail.

 

[Ionian]

Is this from NRMP? Can you upload or link to document with these stats? I've been curious about this stuff for a long time, but couldn't find this much detail.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf

Go to EM section.

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

Is this from NRMP? Can you upload or link to document with these stats? I've been curious about this stuff for a long time, but couldn't find this much detail.

never mind someone beat me to it lol

 

[AmericaAmerica]

I couldn't find anything about number of invites and not matching... if you're equating rank number to invite number, it's not exact. I know of a few people who didn't match because they were overconfident and only ranked 6-10. They definitely got invited to more than 6-10.

 

[spartacus4432]

Is there a strategy to the waitlist if you have an interview invite but all dates are full? Is it better to select a day earlier or later for the waitlist? All waitlisted days have one person waiting.

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

I couldn't find anything about number of invites and not matching... if you're equating rank number to invite number, it's not exact. I know of a few people who didn't match because they were overconfident and only ranked 6-10. They definitely got invited to more than 6-10.

If you look at the bar graph for contiguous ranks for a specialty, you will see the breakdown of those who matched and didn't match based on the number of ranks! People usually if not always rank all the places they interview at, so it should be used to correlate with how many interviews a person went on.