Emergency Medicine DOs/Residents

[MexicanDr]

I don't want to start another comparison, or who is best thread. I simply want to ask those physicians with a DO degree who are done with residency or those are in residency a few questions.

I live in California (Central Valley) and the main hospitals here are:

UCSF Fresno Community Trauma-1. I don't think there are any DO Emergency physicians and for the past 4 years in their residencies there has been two DO's.

Kern Medical Center (Bakersfield -Trauma 2) Again, I havent seen any practicing EM DOs here and for the past 3 years I have known of only 4 DOs in residency.

Kaweah Delta Medical Center (Visalia, Ca - Trauma-3) No practicing EM DO in this hospital.

How hard is it really to get into an EM Residency as a DO graduate? I am from Ca and will be applying to both MD/DO and would love to do my residency in the central valley, especially UCSF/Fresno Med Center.

When it comes to hiring an EM physician, will EM groups prefer an MD over a DO regardless of their experience in residency?

What do you guys think?

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[Siggy]

While not Central Valley, there's also Arrowhead Regional in Colton for DO students. One of the program directors came into to give a presentation to our EMIG and what was essentially said was if they don't know you (i.e. shadowing, rotations, etc), you most likely aren't going to be considered. Apparently last year they went to their 7th choice in the match to fill 6 spots.

 

[MexicanDr]

So in general do you guys believe DOs are in a huge disadvantage? I mean, would it be best to attend an school in the Caribbean [SGU, Ross, AUC]? or even an international program such as in Mexico, [UAG]?

 

[samnite]

As a DO about to enter an allopathic EM residency, I would recommend going to a DO school over a foreign medical school. That being said, you have a long way to go and there will be other factors more important than DO/MD for you (away rotations, step tests, EM club involvement, research, etc) to consider.

 

[gutonc]

So in general do you guys believe DOs are in a huge disadvantage? I mean, would it be best to attend an school in the Caribbean [SGU, Ross, AUC]? or even an international program such as in Mexico, [UAG]?

With all due respect to my IMG colleagues, do not go offshore if you can at all avoid it.

I don't actually think that the educational discrepancy is the biggest thing you'll confront (although it is an issue). The overall anti-IMG bias is far more powerful. The old saw that "offshore is temporary, DO is forever" is becoming less and less true as residency slots become tighter. The days of kicking ass offshore, getting 99/99/99 and scoring a crappy Derm residency spot are coming to an end. As the AMG:Residency ratio approaches 1, IMGs will be the biggest losers (and not in a good way).

For better or worse, if you go DO, you have a back door/out with the AOA match/scramble to get your training and get a job if you don't get an allo residency spot.

As an IMG, if you don't get a spot..."would you like fries with that?"

 

[docB]

I live in California (Central Valley) and the main hospitals here are:

UCSF Fresno Community Trauma-1. I don't think there are any DO Emergency physicians and for the past 4 years in their residencies there has been two DO's.

Kern Medical Center (Bakersfield -Trauma 2) Again, I havent seen any practicing EM DOs here and for the past 3 years I have known of only 4 DOs in residency.

Kaweah Delta Medical Center (Visalia, Ca - Trauma-3) No practicing EM DO in this hospital.

I used to work at San Joaquin General in Stockton. It is a Level 2 trauma center and a really busy ED (or it was when I was there, it's probably more so now). There were a number of DO EPs working there back then.

 

[polygonal]

It certainly wasn't a problem when I was job hunting. I think it is a generally a non-issue.

 

[Aloha Kid]

You definitely are not going to have problems getting a job. Matching at an allopathic residency on the other hand requires stellar scores and probably a rotation through the system as well.

 

[MexicanDr]

Thanks guys for the replies.

So getting a job as a DO in EM is not such a big deal?

Aloha Kid mentioned how stellar scores are vital, and also EM rotation at an Allo school/hospital. Is it possible to do your EM rotation during third year at an Allo school/hospital even if you attend a DO school? The same question applies for the electives in 4th year, if you want to do an EM rotation at an allo hospital?

 

[corpsmanUP]

Thanks guys for the replies.

So getting a job as a DO in EM is not such a big deal?

Aloha Kid mentioned how stellar scores are vital, and also EM rotation at an Allo school/hospital. Is it possible to do your EM rotation during third year at an Allo school/hospital even if you attend a DO school? The same question applies for the electives in 4th year, if you want to do an EM rotation at an allo hospital?

Pretty much a non issue. I'm in the south where DO's are not that common yet even in my own groups I work with half the docs are DO's it seems these days. I sometimes forget I am a DO!! LOL If you are a competitive applicant you are a competitive applicant. There are still a handful of residency programs that do not have DO's frequently but I saw many a "DO unfriendly" residency become friendly while I was in residency. Indiana/Wake Forest/UT Southwestern/Regions/ and some others that elude my memory.

 

[MSmentor018]

UT southwestern took 1 from my class this yr

 

[bcgans]

Indiana took 1 DO from AZCOM last year. Hopefully more to come!

 

[drxbx]

Kern Medical Emergency Med is still very DO friendly and takes IMGs that rotate here and rock it. EM has become more competitive overall so scores do matter.
My advice for any medical school applicant is Allopathic US > Osteopathic US > Foreign US accredited in order of ease of your residency chances. Also, keep in mind that as a foreign graduate you will have more hoops to jump through for job applications/state licensing. But once you are done with residency you will have no problem finding a job in your respective field DO or MD. For matching in residency, definitely do away/audition rotations where you want to end up. For Kern Medical Emergency you can visit for more info:

http://kmcemed.com/

http://www.kernmedical.com/health-p...rograms/emergency-medicine-residency-program/

http://www.kernmedical.com/health-professionals/medical-student-education/

 

[gro2001]

With all due respect to my IMG colleagues, do not go offshore if you can at all avoid it.

I don't actually think that the educational discrepancy is the biggest thing you'll confront (although it is an issue). The overall anti-IMG bias is far more powerful.

As an FMG, I concur with this 100%. The bias is real (and honestly somewhat justified). The uphill struggles that you will face as an FMG are hard to over state. Some specialties will be completely closed off to you.

 

[sylvanthus]

No issues getting a job as a DO, more difficult to get into residency though.

 

[Psai]

nvm necrobumped

 

[HooliganSnail]

So in general do you guys believe DOs are in a huge disadvantage? I mean, would it be best to attend an school in the Caribbean [SGU, Ross, AUC]? or even an international program such as in Mexico, [UAG]?

You are not asking the right questions.

Think about what your goal is.....to become a physician, especially an EM physician, especially in Southern California.

In order to do this you need to first get into medical school and become a doctor. MD is a doctor, DO is a doctor. It really doesn't matter, both can become fully licensed. board certified EM physicians.

Medical school is EXPENSIVE, and the debt you accrue will be the greatest factor limiting where you can work (and how much income you need to pay back the massive student loans), so the real questions are

1. "Where can I go to medical school, and take out the least amount of loans?"
2. "What residencies can I get in my area, so that I can become board certified, and pay back those loans?"

The order of cost of all med schools (MD or DO) goes as such

1. In state PUBLIC med school
2 Out of state PUBLIC med school (oftentimes not cheaper than #3)
3. PRIVATE med school
4. CARIBBEAN med school. (much, much more expensive)

In reality, it all depends on what in state schools are in your area. If they are all MD, then MD should be your goal. If there is an instate public DO school in your area, then an application there should be just as carefully completed as any of the MD schools. Caribbean should be your absolute last choice, one of desperation. Seriously, you are already accepted at Ross right now, before you even apply, and they cost a FORTUNE.

Residencies, or more specifically who they will take, are very program specific, often subject to personal and institutional bias. Generally, EM is one the most DO friendly fields across the board, but it really is very program dependent. DO's also have there own EM programs, and there are a lot of them. DO residencies are currently only available to DO students, and although that may change, it will be some time before the ingrained "anti-MD" bias in the DO world changes significantly.ANYONE who thinks that opening DO residencies to MD will push out the DO students because they will prefer MD students simply does NOT understand the DO world. DO NOT listen to those people, they are living in a fairy land. DO's (especially at the institutional level) do NOT like MD's, and fiercely look out for their own.

Most of those DO EM spots are in the Midwest, so if you are set on Southern Cal, that may be a no go for you. If you are dead set on residency in a certain area, then you should email or call the residencies in that area and inquire on where their residents went to med school, then make the best choices for you.

One final piece of advice. Med school is insanely competitive. Despite the discussion on SDN, you will find that admission to a DO school is also very competitive. Becoming a doctor is a journey of personal sacrifice, often people have to move across the country for med school, and again for residency. Always strive for your goal, but keep in mind that what you really want is to practice as an attending with many options. Many areas of the country are saturated for EM, and the pay is much lower. The best chance of being able to live in a lower paying area is to NOT have tons of loans. Your debt will be the single greatest expense of your life, so choose wisely. Spend the least that you can on med school, so you can live where you want as an attending.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

If I had to choose, I'd do DO over IMG.

If you are a DO or an IMG and do an allopathic EM residency, you're going to be better off than if you do a DO residency.

That said, all of those are strikes against you when you apply for some EM jobs. DO schools and IMG schools are comparatively weak on a CV compared to a US MD school. Doesn't mean you can't overcome them, or that you're not a good doc, but it's a strike against you. Pretending it isn't is just fooling yourself.

IMG schools are not only expensive like most DO schools but you run into some difficulties with student loan management by going there.

It is statistically easier to get into an IMG school or a DO school. We all know that. We still know it in 10-30 years when we're the ones doing the hiring. Why would we all of a sudden start ignoring that fact?

That said, the demand for residency trained EPs is much higher than the supply. If your only red flag is a DO or an IMG, you're not going to have trouble getting a job. But you might not get a job in Portland.

The DO bias thing is least in the midwest BTW. It's a much lesser deal in Iowa than it might be in Massachussetts or California.