Emergency Medicine is Hot

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BLADEMDA

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I checked the 2013 Match list for the allopathic medical schools in my state. I found that EM/ER was chosen by at least a 2:1 margin over Anesthesiology. The Medical students seem enamored with EM/ER.

Is that because of the quality of life issue? Salary? Job prospects? I think the Step scores are similar for both specialties with EM slightly higher for 2013 (mean of 230 for EM).

I realize that EM is a newer specialty but even when I was an intern there were people going into EM (decades ago). Are hospitals firing all the family practice docs and hiring just EM Attendings now?

I'm just trying to get a grasp on why EM/ER has become so popular in the match and seems to be getting even more popular each year. Is the job market red hot for EM?

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Lifestyle is important as well as income potential. EM may not be a typical lifestyle specialty but it's appealing to many because the schedule is predictable with no call. ER's are obviously open 24hrs/day so its a given you will work your share of nights but generally there is no call and often schedules are made months in advance.

Pay is pretty good. The EMTLA mandates that everyone who walks in the ER door gets seen so there's lots of nonpaying patients however jobs often pay by the hour and hourly rates vary from 150-300+ depending on various factors. Its not uncommon for attending's to work 12-14 shifts a month or less. Actually I think this is the norm. So although you will work nights there is a lot off time off for recovery.

Patient interactions are a plus for many. You treat acute issues and then send them on there way. No call or long term interactions. This also can be a minus, however it works for many. True many people in the ER can be annoying however you have the peace of mind knowing that soon they will be gone.

So I think the interest is based on the ability to do procedures, treat the acutely sick, relatively good pay and more days off than on. All this adds up to make the specialty attractive to many.

Combine all that with the possibility that with the ACA they could actually make more money due to the fact that all the uninsured that must be seen due to EMTLA will pay something. It makes the field seem relatively stable going forward.

To be sure EM has its share of negatives but I think the above highlights the reason for a surge in interest.
 
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EM and anesthesia have a lot in common.

1. Not an old mans speciality. Not to offend older docs still practicing. But not specialities have a high burn out rate the older you get.

2. Both have been ripe for management companies taking over.

As for why EM is popular. Med students I talk to always say pay/lifestyle/days off are the big draw. Some med students still feel like "doctors" being in EM as opposed to being in anesthesia (or path or rads). They also know the job market for anesthesia especially in big cities is tightening up. Of course they also worry about the Crna competition.

In the end I believe it's med students ( I interact with quite a few of them). These students are attracted to the set hours and "shift schedule" and pretty good pay.
 
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I've been to the ER a few times as a patient. Was seen by a PA every time. I got fine care. During my EM rotation, I saw terrible negligence by attendings, some would barely even exam a patient before calling a service for admission. It did not feel like doctoring. It felt like nursing triage. Jack of all trades and master of none.
Not trying to troll. Just my 2 cents.
 
NOsaintsfan, you forgot 3 year residency instead of 4+.

I considered EM as a med student. The part I couldn't deal with was the A-hole patients you would have to deal with and the nonsense patients that you would have to deal with (A chief complaint: halitosis at 3 am comes to mind). "How long have you had bad breath?" - "About 5 years".
 
I checked the 2013 Match list for the allopathic medical schools in my state. I found that EM/ER was chosen by at least a 2:1 margin over Anesthesiology. The Medical students seem enamored with EM/ER.

Is that because of the quality of life issue? Salary? Job prospects? I think the Step scores are similar for both specialties with EM slightly higher for 2013 (mean of 230 for EM).

I realize that EM is a newer specialty but even when I was an intern there were people going into EM (decades ago). Are hospitals firing all the family practice docs and hiring just EM Attendings now?

I'm just trying to get a grasp on why EM/ER has become so popular in the match and seems to be getting even more popular each year. Is the job market red hot for EM?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ (the $ threads in the forum usually get the most hits, "$200/hr" "attending salary" etc.)

low work hours / no call

short residency

variety of work

demand (ties into $)

I've been to the ER a few times as a patient. Was seen by a PA every time. I got fine care. During my EM rotation, I saw terrible negligence by attendings, some would barely even exam a patient before calling a service for admission. It did not feel like doctoring. It felt like nursing triage. Jack of all trades and master of none.
Not trying to troll. Just my 2 cents.

Certainly this doesn't define the field though. The EM bashing isn't really fair, they have to cover 15-20 specialties instead of 1. And often, most docs don't even cover an entire specialty, they subspecialize. So EM is covering 20 specialties compared to others who cover 1/5 of 1 specialty. Then these people laugh at EM when they don't have the subtle expertise that comes alongside ultra focus for 10 years into one field. Not fair.
 
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shift work.
$$$.
no call.
scrubs.
procedures.
"adrenaline rush"

these are the reasons med students give me. It explains why the application rater is so high. Unfortunately, it also explains why the burnout rate is so high. The "flashyness" of any field eventually fades. You need to love it for the right reasons or your time will be limited.
 
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I considered EM as a med student. The part I couldn't deal with was the A-hole patients you would have to deal with and the nonsense patients that you would have to deal with (A chief complaint: halitosis at 3 am comes to mind). "How long have you had bad breath?" - "About 5 years".

*This* is why the burnout rate in EM is so high.
 
I think ER will be nice if they have a 7 on /7 off shifts like hospitalist.
 
Just dug up an old thread in EM forums of attendings discussing salary info.....some of the numbers are astronomical.

A sample quote from that thread:

"I have always been curious as to why the "average" ED pay (250k) was so low. This avg has to include people working urgent care, part time, etc. There is no way the 250k avg is for the typical avg workload in an ED where you are required to be board certified.

I am board certified, a partner for the past 6 yrs, work in a city usually rated as one of the top to live in, 11 yrs removed from residency. I work 7 hr shifts, 14 days a month. That works out to 1176 hrs/yr. I work in a typical 40K community ED and see about 2.5/hr. This comes out to about 24 hrs/week.

Last year, I pulled in 390K. 52K in my Sep. 10K in my HSA/Business expences. My group pays for my mal practice/health insurance.

I would say if you included my mal practice/health insurance, my total package is close to 480K or about $400/hr.

I get offers from other groups ALL the time offering atleast $300/hr. I know I can moonlight and get $350/hr tomorrow and work as many hours as I would like

So all these statistics showing ED docs making the avg of all specialists is Crap. Take out all of the urgent care docs, all of the docs doing part time, non boarded EM docs and I would be shocked if mose were not making 300k/hr.

If avg was 36hr/week at $400/hr, I would be at over 700k/yr."

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=961297&highlight=salary
 
Just dug up an old thread in EM forums of attendings discussing salary info.....some of the numbers are astronomical.

A sample quote from that thread:

"I have always been curious as to why the "average" ED pay (250k) was so low. This avg has to include people working urgent care, part time, etc. There is no way the 250k avg is for the typical avg workload in an ED where you are required to be board certified.

I am board certified, a partner for the past 6 yrs, work in a city usually rated as one of the top to live in, 11 yrs removed from residency. I work 7 hr shifts, 14 days a month. That works out to 1176 hrs/yr. I work in a typical 40K community ED and see about 2.5/hr. This comes out to about 24 hrs/week.

Last year, I pulled in 390K. 52K in my Sep. 10K in my HSA/Business expences. My group pays for my mal practice/health insurance.

I would say if you included my mal practice/health insurance, my total package is close to 480K or about $400/hr.

I get offers from other groups ALL the time offering atleast $300/hr. I know I can moonlight and get $350/hr tomorrow and work as many hours as I would like

So all these statistics showing ED docs making the avg of all specialists is Crap. Take out all of the urgent care docs, all of the docs doing part time, non boarded EM docs and I would be shocked if mose were not making 300k/hr.

If avg was 36hr/week at $400/hr, I would be at over 700k/yr."

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=961297&highlight=salary

Location based. In my city (medium sized Midwest), the ER docs pull about 250k for 12-14 shifts a month. If you drive like an hour outside of the city, the numbers go up exponentially. However, the numbers go up like that for all fields once you go to BFE, albeit not as much as for EM. Not sure where this city is that is "rated as one of the top to live in."

All in all, EM is a fine field as long as you know what you are getting into. The problem is that once you burn out, there's really no good alternative. Sure, you can do critical care from EM, but burnout is also high in that field.
 
Location based. In my city (medium sized Midwest), the ER docs pull about 250k for 12-14 shifts a month. If you drive like an hour outside of the city, the numbers go up exponentially. However, the numbers go up like that for all fields once you go to BFE, albeit not as much as for EM. Not sure where this city is that is "rated as one of the top to live in."

All in all, EM is a fine field as long as you know what you are getting into. The problem is that once you burn out, there's really no good alternative. Sure, you can do critical care from EM, but burnout is also high in that field.

I could be wrong but I suspect that attending's combat the burn out by working less. I have a feeling that if you have been with a group for 20 years + then they will probably let you only work 1-2 days per week. Not sure though.
 
Location based. In my city (medium sized Midwest), the ER docs pull about 250k for 12-14 shifts a month. If you drive like an hour outside of the city, the numbers go up exponentially. However, the numbers go up like that for all fields once you go to BFE, albeit not as much as for EM. Not sure where this city is that is "rated as one of the top to live in."

All in all, EM is a fine field as long as you know what you are getting into. The problem is that once you burn out, there's really no good alternative. Sure, you can do critical care from EM, but burnout is also high in that field.

I believe the city the EM physician works at is a suburb of the great state of Texas.

I guess everything is 'bigger' in Texas, including his salary. He has no reason to falsify his income.

Also, when I read he makes ~$300-$350/hr, I jizzed in my pants----an ungodly amount of money for any specialty.
 
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I could be wrong but I suspect that attending's combat the burn out by working less. I have a feeling that if you have been with a group for 20 years + then they will probably let you only work 1-2 days per week. Not sure though.

Yes, you work less, and no, you don't have to work 20+ years to cut back on # of shifts.

Really variable, though, over different groups and regions of the country.
 
Also, when I read he makes ~$300-$350/hr, I jizzed in my pants----an ungodly amount of money for any specialty.

Yes, and yet.... most of these people still find a way to complain that they aren't making enough money.
 
I think what he meant by $300-$400/ hr is including all the benefits, otherwise, I don't think any one can make this much in any speciality, in any location. I have tried to look the current listings online and the maximum I got was $200/hr plus benefits, in Nebraska. I have also looked one listing in TX... $210-220/hr with $80k on additional benefits. No other benefits mentioned.
 
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Only problems are burnout, crazy patients, fast pace and overnight shifts. If people can handle Those for a decade or two then it's great. And unfair bashing.
 
I was on the fence about the two until September of 4th year. Most I think have already been mentioned, I know me personally I didn't like dealing with the primary care issues. I enjoyed the truly sick patients, but they are few and far between. Honestly the only part I will miss about EM is the interaction with the pre-hospital crews.
 
Every field has downsides. I picked EM knowing full well that the drug seekers and night shifts will probably be there for the rest of my career. I also get to acutely care for a huge range of pathology presenting in a wide variety of patients from every walk of life. This is very important to me and I find it fulfilling.

Should my views or priorities change down the road, there are actually several routes for EM-boarded docs who want to spend time outside the department (and not just critical care).
 
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Every field has downsides. I picked EM knowing full well that the drug seekers and night shifts will probably be there for the rest of my career. I also get to acutely care for a huge range of pathology presenting in a wide variety of patients from every walk of life. This is very important to me and I find it fulfilling.

Should my views or priorities change down the road, there are actually several routes for EM-boarded docs who want to spend time outside the department (and not just critical care).

Just curious what that is? Urgent care?

Few things can pay around what clinical EM does.
 
EM gets bashed a lot but I thought long and hard about the specialty. I have a rough time doing nights, so a couple a month wasn't a good fit.

In my area EM is $350k plus for 14-16 shifts a month. U can work more, less, everyday, or just a couple days. Girls I know who have entered EM work something crazy like 8 8 hr shifts/mo. Pay isn't astronomical but when hubby has a job it's nice additional coin.

A lot do mission work/international med too, can always bounce from location to location b/c ERs are always looking and if one gets burned out (been told 10 yrs is avg burnout time) you can cut back and teach, do CCM, urgent care, FM etc.

In today's medicine, in ain't a terrible gig. I expect demand to continue to rise and more and more med students find all above attractive.

CJ
 
Every field has downsides. I picked EM knowing full well that the drug seekers and night shifts will probably be there for the rest of my career. I also get to acutely care for a huge range of pathology presenting in a wide variety of patients from every walk of life. This is very important to me and I find it fulfilling.

Should my views or priorities change down the road, there are actually several routes for EM-boarded docs who want to spend time outside the department (and not just critical care).

What are your options outside of the ER and Critical Care?
 
Adapted from ACEP's Critical Care Section

Can an emergency medicine resident become board certified in critical care medicine?
Internal Medicine

Residents from Emergency Medicine can now do a 2 year internal medicine critical care fellowship and get certified through ABIM. There is also a grandfathering track.
 
When I read this thread title I bust out laughing. No offense.

I almost did EM, it was my #2 choice for a future career. In the end, I looked around at all of the female doc in EM in their mid fifties and decided I did not want that lifestyle. Sure they are still working shifts, but that includes night shifts . And although there are many very cool procedures, the lack of continuity and confinement to hospitals and/or Urgent care did not appeal to me. I thought I would be ready for something different after about five years. And the middle aged EM docs I saw... well, not so hot. That's what made me laugh.
 
b/c ERs are always looking and if one gets burned out (been told 10 yrs is avg burnout time) you can cut back and teach, do CCM, urgent care, FM etc.

EM docs -- for the most part (excluding EM/IM) -- can't do anything close to FM.

I am very pro-EM and think we (I am EM residency-trained) are some of the most versatile docs in the hospital in urgent/emergent situations, but we are VERY poorly trained for outpatient, chronic medical management. I pity the patients who present to the ED for primary care.

We are even less equipped to do FM than FM docs trying EM (well, 75% of EM).

HH

Also: I am not sure I agree with the idea of "cut back" to CCM. I spend most of my time in the ICU nowadays; and although the ICU is much less rushed and intense than the ED most of the time, I still don't think anyone trained in EM should consider CCM cutting back. People trained in all CCM-related specialities will understand this (assuming your training hospital had REAL ICUs).

HH
 
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What are your options outside of the ER and Critical Care?

Honestly, not a lot (despite the above poster's implication).

However, sports medicine and especially toxicology come to mind. Both of these are ACGME-approved fellowships and EM docs are some of the most prominent toxicologists in the US (see NYU/Bellvue/NYC/Goldfrank tox).

HH
 
When I read this thread title I bust out laughing. No offense.

I almost did EM, it was my #2 choice for a future career. In the end, I looked around at all of the female doc in EM in their mid fifties and decided I did not want that lifestyle. Sure they are still working shifts, but that includes night shifts . And although there are many very cool procedures, the lack of continuity and confinement to hospitals and/or Urgent care did not appeal to me. I thought I would be ready for something different after about five years. And the middle aged EM docs I saw... well, not so hot. That's what made me laugh.

Yeah, that's the only thing that makes me hesitate. Most people I've seen that are 10+ years in don't seem to be thriving. The burn out thing is real.

Cutting down to 20 hrs a week after 10 or 15 years doesn't sound great either. Some people thrive in EM but it wears down most.
 
Can a 50 year old EM physician simply take less money (25 percent pay cut) and work only day shifts?
Would the younger EM physicians agree to do the nights for a 25 percent differential? If yes, then an older physician could wind down his/her career with day shifts only which makes life so much better as you get older.
 
What are your options outside of the ER and Critical Care?

The following ACGME paths are open to EM docs and include outpatient time/more normal hours/less intense environment:

1) Sports med
2) Hospice/Palliative
3) Pain (not looking to start a war here, but EM docs can/have done this fellowship)
4) Toxicology
5) Hyperbarics
6) Occupational/Preventative

Then there are 2 more ACGME options which can give ED docs a little more regular work schedule:

-EMS (it's now supposed to become a "clinical" field out of the hospital; regardless, directors at big depts often do lots of teaching/QI/admin and 4-6 clinical shifts a month)
-Peds EM (can be easier to avoid doing nights as a PEM at community shops)

Options for EM docs outside the ED are not limited to urgent care or critical care.
 
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I'm a board certified ER doc now at an anesthesia residency. To me, the ER was a mirage- true the quantity of hours are probably some of the fewest in medicine but for the most part you are working the evenings and overnight because that is the busiest times of the ER. You work half the weekends and holidays forever. With the constant change in schedule, multiple weekends per month your 40 hours seems like 70-80 so your social life drastically changes because you have a hard time committing to any regular activity. There are many other reasons I changed specialties but this is one of the biggest.
Also, Blade some larger groups may have a specialized night person or two that get paid more but I haven't seen a group that has day shift person even for less money. Usually because everyone in the group wants that prime weekday 7a-3p shift and no one wants that Saturday night 4p-2a shift so it ends up getting split evenly amongst everyone.
 
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When I was an intern doing my ER rotation, one of the attendings was an anesthesiologist that did moonlighting in the ER.

He said he did it for the money - he said it paid way better than anesthesiology.

It wasn't a crazy ER either. If it weren't for the frequent pap smears and rectal exams required, I might consider it. (I know...I know...most ER docs DON'T do the rectal exams, but they should...that is just complete and good medicine.)
 
#

3) Pain (not looking to start a war here, but EM docs can/have done this fellowship)


.

Pretty much anybody can do a pain fellowship and get the same certificate (ABMS) that the core people can get (PM&R, Anes, Psych, Neuro) with the help of their parent board.
 
Can a 50 year old EM physician simply take less money (25 percent pay cut) and work only day shifts?
Would the younger EM physicians agree to do the nights for a 25 percent differential? If yes, then an older physician could wind down his/her career with day shifts only which makes life so much better as you get older.

It's hard to get only days (unless you're willing to trade nights for weekends) even with a differential. Some large groups have built in rules regarding how senior docs are scheduled, but most shops don't have enough docs to guarantee any stability in terms of not working nights. You're always at the mercy of the night doc(s) deciding to switch back to a mixed schedule or leaving the group.

Aging in EM is one of the issues that the specialty is not addressing in any significant manner and this is going to bite us down the road. It leads to the mentality that you have to work at burn-out rates to pay down your loans before the work becomes intolerable. Or that you have to work so little that you can tolerate abusive work environments and sh^%$% scheduling that completely disregards Circadian rhythms. Either route leads to not viewing EM as a career and the attendent problems that come with a renter's mentality. Which combined with the increasing requirements to get the government to cough up reimbursement leads to widespread penetration of CMGs. Which is not horrible by itself, but none of the CMGs I've worked for makes any accounting for age since they're building their profits on the backs of docs that are willing to burn in return for getting "mid-career"-like pay.
 
I'm a board certified ER doc now at an anesthesia residency. To me, the ER was a mirage- true the quantity of hours are probably some of the fewest in medicine but for the most part you are working the evenings and overnight because that is the busiest times of the ER. You work half the weekends and holidays forever. With the constant change in schedule, multiple weekends per month your 40 hours seems like 70-80 so your social life drastically changes because you have a hard time committing to any regular activity. There are many other reasons I changed specialties but this is one of the biggest.
Also, Blade some larger groups may have a specialized night person or two that get paid more but I haven't seen a group that has day shift person even for less money. Usually because everyone in the group wants that prime weekday 7a-3p shift and no one wants that Saturday night 4p-2a shift so it ends up getting split evenly amongst everyone.

I seem to hear this story a lot - people wanting to change after a decade or so. The "renter's mindset" is kind of scary when it takes the better part of a decade to learn the job. The social aspect is key. I think being a single guy would be easy to do EM, but if you have a wife and two kids, social engagements, etc. then flipping schedules and circadian rhythms start to be huge factors.
 
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I completed 2 years of a 4 year EM residency before switching into anesthesia. Best decision I ever made. Couldn't stand doing frequent night shifts, slicing open butt abscesses on Christmas Eve, etc. Also hated the jack of all trades quality of the field and really enjoy feeling like a true consultant now.

That being said, I have all the respect in the world for those that work in the ED - most trauma centers will wear you down every shift. I don't know how attendings do it for 20+ years. My worst calls as an anesthesia resident didn't compare to an average overnight shift at my EM program.
 
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I seem to hear this story a lot - people wanting to change after a decade or so. The "renter's mindset" is kind of scary when it takes the better part of a decade to learn the job. The social aspect is key. I think being a single guy would be easy to do EM, but if you have a wife and two kids, social engagements, etc. then flipping schedules and circadian rhythms start to be huge factors.

Yet, in my state med students chose EM over Anesthesiology by a 2:1 margin in 2012 and 2013.
 
The Invincible Hero


EM will always be "hot" for the same reason the military keeps getting people to sign up:

The Invincible Hero Factor.

Everyone wants the thrill of being the hero, at any cost, and at a time in their life they feel invincible. But after getting shelled night after night, and after seeing a few friends go down in flames, the boring desk job starts to look pretty, pretty, sweet.

I'm glad I went into EM. I wouldn't change it for the world, but I'm also glad I got the chance to get out of the daily pit grind after 10 years. I was lucky; many end up trapped.

I've got lots of stories, no regrets, and scars that will last a lifetime.


"Thrill is gone...
The thrill is gone away
You know you done me wrong, baby
And you'll be sorry someday."
- B.B. King, The Thrill Is Gone
 
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EM will always be "hot" for the same reason the military keeps getting people to sign up;

The Cowboy Factor.

Everyone wants to be the hero, but after getting shelled night after night, and after seeing a few friends go down in flames, the boring desk job start to look pretty, pretty, sweet.

I'm glad I went into EM. I wouldn't change it for the world, but I'm also glad I got the chance to get out of the daily pit grind after 10 years. I was lucky; many end up trapped.

I've got enough stories (and scars) to last a lifetime.

So why are female med students choosing EM over Anesthesiology? I've met several female med students who wouldn't consider picking Anesthesiology over EM. How will the ER schedule fit into marriage and raising a family? I guess they will just work fewer shifts.
 
Although 50% or greater of medical school classes are now women, studies have suggested that a somewhat smaller proportion of those women enter emergency medicine (about 33% of entering classes). Is there something about the specialty that is unfriendly to women? Or is the applicant pool simply diluted out by those women that enter other specialties, such as OB/GYN, etc.?
 
So why are female med students choosing EM over Anesthesiology? I've met several female med students who wouldn't consider picking Anesthesiology over EM. How will the ER schedule fit into marriage and raising a family? I guess they will just work fewer shifts.

Anesthesiology is still a male dominated field. All one needs to look at at the partners in a group. Blade. U are from central Florida? A friend of a friend of mine is currently one of the partners in one of main practices in the area. Just go down the roster of "partners" and you may have 2 female partners out of like 30-40 partners.

It's heavily male dominated. Even my sister group in Maryland. She's one of 6 female partners out of 28 partners. My brothers group in Los Angeles. 14 males. Zero female partners.

Maybe female med students see less female attendings on a day to day basis in anesthesia? I don't know. Maybe they feel mid levels in anesthesia are more of a threat than mid levels in ER?

Not sure. Because I think anesthesia is still a great career for women especially those who still want to work the "mommy track" and still earn very good pay (even in the tight job market).

For all the Crna competition. Just remember many CRNAs work 36-40 hours a week no call no weekend and get paid 150k-170k with benefits. A mommy track MD anesthesia career (notice I don't use the idiot "MDA terminology". But a mommy track 7-3pm or 7-5pm 4 day work week and the MD can still make 200k easily with no call. The spread difference between MD who takes no call and works very similar hours to Crna is very little. Yet AANA seems to throw out the propaganda that MDs are raping the system ......but I digress.

So not sure why female med students are choosing EM over anesthesia.
 
.
So why are female med students choosing EM over Anesthesiology?

It's a simple matter of marketing. EM has perfected: "Sell the 'sizzle' not the steak." The specialty has the sizzle factor and always will. Hence, EM, just like a Porsche, will always sell itself. That doesn't mean that it will still have "the thrill" when a person's circumstances change making a minivan much more useful and practical. But, once you've bought the "sizzle" you've still got to chew the steak no matter how tough. The smartest thing EM ever did for recruitment had nothing to do with recruitment. It had everything to do with closing the primary care pathways. Once EM became a single entry, "no exit" specialty, they secured their workforce. If EM was allowed to be primary care with EM as a subspecialty fellowship, there'd be a much greater risk of recruits bailing out to do more lucrative "fellowships" that could increase pay along with lifestyle, such as GI, Cards, etc. By closing that loophole, the specialty tightened its ranks, but doubled down on exit strategies and therefore upped the ante on burnout. (I have tome-like post on this, that was intended for DrWhitecoat.com, but I just never got around to finishing or posting it).

I've met several female med students who wouldn't consider picking Anesthesiology over EM. How will the ER schedule fit into marriage and raising a family?

It's terrible. Sure you'll hear anecdotes and adaptations such as "I just work all nights and I see my kids for breakfast after work and for dinner before work, too. It's the best thing ever!" But the reality is, that sleeping all day and being awake all night, and having your body want to do that on all your off days, when your family lives in an alternate universe, is soul crushing for many people. The only thing worse is a constant rotating schedule of random shifts where one feels chronically jet lagged and sleep deprived, even on their days off. That's another EM lie: "When you're off, you're off!" Nuh, uh. When you worked past midnight, until 3 a.m. the morning of your day "off" and your family is up at 7 am in need of a bright-eyed, bushy-tailed daddy (or mommy), you're no more "off" than a surgeon with a pager. The work bleeds into your day off by stealing forward from your circadian rhythms. Also, doing a Peds code and parental death notification or getting assaulted by a patient is had to turn off like a light switch 5 steps out the door.

I guess they will just work fewer shifts.

That's what they'll be told, and that's what they'll think, hope and count on. A few will secure 99th percentile jobs where they can pick whatever amount of hours they want or don't want, but with a critical and nationwide shortage of BC/BE EPs at a time that 40 million uninsured are set to be newly insured and demanding care, with nowhere that'll accept their Medicaid but the ER, there will continue to be an increasing pressure to chronically work a greater and greater number of hours and shifts than desired for most. They'll still have to work 1/2 of all Christmases, New Years Eves, Superbowl Sundays, Easters, Rosh Hoshanas, and weekends. Many will be sold the "sizzle" and a promising contract but once it's signed, the house is bought and the spouse has secured a job in the new locale, it's much easier to just swallow the medicine, work the extra 3-4 shifts per month, and smolder, while the recruiting cycle repeats is promise to finally, once and for all, fill the staffing gap before volume outgrows the new man power.

I can definitely say, that having been down this road in the past, it's feels damn good knowing every day that I can sleep when it's dark, be awake when the sun is out, be off when my family is off and gone when my family is gone.

Regardless, EM has the "sizzle" and there's nothing I can write or say, if the sizzle is that which you seek.
 
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My hunch is that the CRNA issue is driving female med students away from anesthesia even more than their male counterparts. Some female med students view EM as better respected in terms of being a physician than having to deal with a group of militant nurses who view themselves as Doctor of Nurse Anesthesia.

Still, the mommy track is much better in anesthesia than EM.
 
As an EM doc for roughly 5 years, I still remember enough about my former medical student self to realize that the criteria I used when I chose EM over anesthesia as a medical student are very different than those I'd use if I were making the choice now.

I don't think many medical students choose based on the CRNA problem in anesthesia or the 'hordes of Obamacare primary-care seekers' problem in EM. I don't think they experience those issues very much in medical school.

Med students often have a superficial view of daily life in the specialty. Not an inaccurate one, just a limited one.

For example, one of the reasons I chose EM was that was the rotation where I felt I was stretching myself the most, trying new things every day, learning an immense amount of medicine knowledge and procedural skill.* Anesthesiology felt to me more like radiology -- rountine management of machines hooked up to the patient, twiddling dials and monitors. A lot like a radiologist looking at pictures of patients all day...

This superficial view of each specialty is more a function of the role that medical students play in each rotation rather than the kind of practice anesthesiologists or emergency physicians have in residency and beyond. Med students aren't experiencing all of that; their experiences are different.

Plus there's the usual dumb luck factors of where you see people you think of as mentors, etc. which I think for most med students is kind of random chance.

*As an attending that's still true, but there's a whole lot of routine butt abscess drainages and pregnant patients with vague pelvic pain too. Enough to burn me out fast if I work too much.
 
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Location based. In my city (medium sized Midwest), the ER docs pull about 250k for 12-14 shifts a month. If you drive like an hour outside of the city, the numbers go up exponentially. However, the numbers go up like that for all fields once you go to BFE, albeit not as much as for EM. Not sure where this city is that is "rated as one of the top to live in."

All in all, EM is a fine field as long as you know what you are getting into. The problem is that once you burn out, there's really no good alternative. Sure, you can do critical care from EM, but burnout is also high in that field.

Well now Pain fellowship is available to EM.
 
My attending(Pain doc) was telling me anesthesiology is not really a lifestyle specialty he told me his call was quite frequent and worked as hard as the surgeons did. Also why does everyone talk about burnout talk about ICU or EM but never surgery? EM is not lifestyle specialty but few things are in medicine. The simple fact is that doctors work hard. Hospitalist is a popular career choice as well but you work nights weekends and holidays.
 
My attending(Pain doc) was telling me anesthesiology is not really a lifestyle specialty he told me his call was quite frequent and worked as hard as the surgeons did. Also why does everyone talk about burnout talk about ICU or EM but never surgery? EM is not lifestyle specialty but few things are in medicine. The simple fact is that doctors work hard. Hospitalist is a popular career choice as well but you work nights weekends and holidays.

Anesthesia can be a lifestyle specialty if you are willing to trade money for time off.
For example, there are surgicenter jobs paying $225-$300K with No call, no weekends and no nights. The usual schedule is Monday through Friday 0700-1600 with holidays off. Some days you will be out 2:00 P.M.
That's a lifestyle gig like Derm but at half the pay of Derm.
 
As for Pain Medicine "Call" compared to Anesthesia O.R. Call there is no comparison whatsoever.
Pain Medicine can be a lifestyle specialty as well if you are willing to forgo some dollars to get it.
 
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It's a simple matter of marketing. EM has perfected: "Sell the 'sizzle' not the steak." The specialty has the sizzle factor and always will. Hence, EM, just like a Porsche, will always sell itself. That doesn't mean that it will still have "the thrill" when a person's circumstances change making a minivan much more useful and practical. But, once you've bought the "sizzle" you've still got to chew the steak no matter how tough. The smartest thing EM ever did for recruitment had nothing to do with recruitment. It had everything to do with closing the primary care pathways. Once EM became a single entry, "no exit" specialty, they secured their workforce. If EM was allowed to be primary care with EM as a subspecialty fellowship, there'd be a much greater risk of recruits bailing out to do more lucrative "fellowships" that could increase pay along with lifestyle, such as GI, Cards, etc. By closing that loophole, the specialty tightened its ranks, but doubled down on exit strategies and therefore upped the ante on burnout. (I have tome-like post on this, that was intended for DrWhitecoat.com, but I just never got around to finishing or posting it).



It's terrible. Sure you'll hear anecdotes and adaptations such as "I just work all nights and I see my kids for breakfast after work and for dinner before work, too. It's the best thing ever!" But the reality is, that sleeping all day and being awake all night, and having your body want to do that on all your off days, when your family lives in an alternate universe, is soul crushing for many people. The only thing worse is a constant rotating schedule of random shifts where one feels chronically jet lagged and sleep deprived, even on their days off. That's another EM lie: "When you're off, you're off!" Nuh, uh. When you worked past midnight, until 3 a.m. the morning of your day "off" and your family is up at 7 am in need of a bright-eyed, bushy-tailed daddy (or mommy), you're no more "off" than a surgeon with a pager. The work bleeds into your day off by stealing forward from your circadian rhythms. Also, doing a Peds code and parental death notification or getting assaulted by a patient is had to turn off like a light switch 5 steps out the door.



That's what they'll be told, and that's what they'll think, hope and count on. A few will secure 99th percentile jobs where they can pick whatever amount of hours they want or don't want, but with a critical and nationwide shortage of BC/BE EPs at a time that 40 million uninsured are set to be newly insured and demanding care, with nowhere that'll accept their Medicaid but the ER, there will continue to be an increasing pressure to chronically work a greater and greater number of hours and shifts than desired for most. They'll still have to work 1/2 of all Christmases, New Years Eves, Superbowl Sundays, Easters, Rosh Hoshanas, and weekends. Many will be sold the "sizzle" and a promising contract but once it's signed, the house is bought and the spouse has secured a job in the new locale, it's much easier to just swallow the medicine, work the extra 3-4 shifts per month, and smolder, while the recruiting cycle repeats is promise to finally, once and for all, fill the staffing gap before volume outgrows the new man power.

I can definitely say, that having been down this road in the past, it's feels damn good knowing every day that I can sleep when it's dark, be awake when the sun is out, be off when my family is off and gone when my family is gone.

Regardless, EM has the "sizzle" and there's nothing I can write or say, if the sizzle is that which you seek.

I'm from the previous era when all Physicians worked like dogs. My job isn't lifestyle at all. I take busy call and am up frequently at all times of the night. Many Anesthesiologists experience the same "jet lag" phenomenon you describe for the ER Physician. As I get older my recovery time isn't 24 hours either. These days I need 2 days to recover from an all night shift. I've covered Holidays, weekends, nights, etc for decades so I fully understand the havoc it can do to your personal life both physical and mental.

Anesthesia offers a way out though. You can do a Pain Fellowship or get a much easier job. Many Anesthesiologists begin to phase down around age 55 and seek these daytime positions.

For a woman seeking a family and a life the ER is one of the worst choices she can make in my opinion. Yet, Female med students are still choosing Emergency Medicine over Anesthesiology or Family Practice. For many of them it will be a big mistake.
 
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I'm from the previous era when all Physicians worked like dogs. My job isn't lifestyle at all. I take busy call and am up frequently at all times of the night. Many Anesthesiologists experience the same "jet lag" phenomenon you describe for the ER Physician. As I get older my recovery time isn't 24 hours either. These days I need 2 days to recover from an all night shift. I've covered Holidays, weekends, nights, etc for decades so I fully understand the havoc it can do to your personal life both physical and mental.

Anesthesia offers a way out though. You can do a Pain Fellowship or get a much easier job. Many Anesthesiologists begin to phase down around age 55 and seek these daytime positions.

For a woman seeking a family and a life the ER is one of the worst choices she can make in my opinion. Yet, Female med students are still choosing Emergency Medicine over Anesthesiology or Family Practice. For many of them it will be a big mistake.

EM can do Pain as well and have good hours in urgent care if they desire a regular lifestyle. Many of my fellow medical students even question why someone would do a EM residency because many FM, IM, Med/Peds doctors etc can work in the ED especially if you are in the south.
 
Med students often have a superficial view of daily life in the specialty. Not an inaccurate one, just a limited one.

Anesthesiology felt to me more like radiology -- rountine management of machines hooked up to the patient, twiddling dials and monitors. A lot like a radiologist looking at pictures of patients all day...

This superficial view of each specialty is more a function of the role that medical students play in each rotation rather than the kind of practice anesthesiologists or emergency physicians have in residency and beyond. Med students aren't experiencing all of that; their experiences are different.

This is so true.

I'm surprised we get anybody into anesthesia at all. It is very boring to watch someone do anesthesia.

It is very fun to do, but way boring to watch.

And quit frankly, it is hard to teach I think. I let an intern have a couple of passes at a spinal recently. I took over only two passes. I should have instructed better, been patient, talked him through it. But for some reason, it is getting harder and harder for me to teach this stuff. I would have thought it should be getting easier for me.

Not to hijack the thread, but one of my favorite quotes from a partner of mine is "Every time I watch a resident attempt an epidural, a part of me dies." Haha....I love that.
 
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