Entry level hospital salaries to decline by 10%

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We're discussing changing from 10 to 12 hour shifts - if we do this, it will effectively be a 10% paycut because we would lose those 8 hours a pay period.

It's an interesting discussion, for sure.
 
Ours are not declining, but they are stagnating. What used to be average raises of 5-7% are now 2%, 2.75% if you are a top performer.

ugh
 
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Dred Pirate said:
Ours are not declining, but they are stagnating. What used to be average raises of 5-7% are now 2%, 2.75% if you are a top performer.

ugh
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My last 5-7 percent raise was back in 2010... =_=

I had to negotiate raise in between...
 
njac said:
We're discussing changing from 10 to 12 hour shifts - if we do this, it will effectively be a 10% paycut because we would lose those 8 hours a pay period.

It's an interesting discussion, for sure.
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I think that is how corporate is essentially giving everyone a pay cut in every industry. They are doing it by cutting hours.

I can never imagine someone taking a pay cut directly. That is the worst way to engage employees.
 
Aznfarmerboi said:
I think that is how corporate is essentially giving everyone a pay cut in every industry. They are doing it by cutting hours.

I can never imagine someone taking a pay cut directly. That is the worst way to engage employees.
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Which is exactly what CVS is doing by switching all stores to closing at 9pm. Everyone is being told "you can always pick up an extra floater shift". I wonder where these magical extra shifts are coming from if there are less overall hours across the board...
 
More work + less money = going to escape hospital and instead buy my own pharmacy in a few years
 
njac said:
We're discussing changing from 10 to 12 hour shifts - if we do this, it will effectively be a 10% paycut because we would lose those 8 hours a pay period.

It's an interesting discussion, for sure.
Click to expand...
I have actually never seen this happen to a pharmacist other than a local hospital quit paying the "work 70 get paid for 80" to their overnight rph's.
 
We also saw a cut to the "work 70, get paid 80" perk. Essentially now you get paid for the actual hours you work. We still get shift differential for evenings/weekends, but I see that drying up in the future.
 
This just shows we are in this mess together. It doesn't matter if you are a hospital pharmacist or retail pharmacist. This saturation hurts everyone from new grads to managers.
 
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Salaries of entry-level health-system pharmacists are expected to decline by at least 10% over the next five years, according to the American Society of Health-System Pharmacists (ASHP)’s new report,
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And not sure anyone really read this? This is based on a survey from a panel... anecdotal and subjective feelings of many people.

Health system when restructuring labor force doesn't slash the rate. They start with workflow optimization and reduction in force. As inpatient days decrease and outpatient services arise, nimble pharmacy leaders must adapt and create new pharmacy business. From my experience, most (80%+) pharmacist leaders are a pessimistic bunch and of course they'll say the sky is falling. Then there are those who navigate around falling sky to succeed.

When something like this is published in Drug Topics, you need to understand there's a component of sensational journalism that plays a role. Sure.. maybe some hospitals will lower the rate in next 5 years which I highly doubt. My goal is to keep increasing the salary while I keep hiring more and more qualified pharmacists.

Understand, this isn't something that will occur across the board, if at all.
 
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This suggests the prospect for erosion of starting salaries for pharmacists and, indeed, 60% of FPs said that it is at least somewhat likely that salaries will decline by up to 10% over the next five years for newly hired entry-level general-practice healthsystem pharmacists
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That's the exact language in the article. I was on this panel and I guess I was one of the 40%. "Somewhat likely" not It will. That's why "Drug Topics" is a throw away journal.

Now let's move on.
 
Dred Pirate said:
I have actually never seen this happen to a pharmacist other than a local hospital quit paying the "work 70 get paid for 80" to their overnight rph's.
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It's actually not our managements proposition - it's myself and the other younger pharmacists who already feel like we've shot our entire day working 10.5 hours at this hospital in BFE. Why not work 2 more hours every day and get an extra day off?
 
njac said:
It's actually not our managements proposition - it's myself and the other younger pharmacists who already feel like we've shot our entire day working 10.5 hours at this hospital in BFE. Why not work 2 more hours every day and get an extra day off?
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You could go 5 days 8 hours...

But this will increase total FTE because someone else will have to work the 4th day, correct?
 
Its Z said:
When something like this is published in Drug Topics, you need to understand there's a component of sensational journalism that plays a role. Sure.. maybe some hospitals will lower the rate in next 5 years which I highly doubt. My goal is to keep increasing the salary while I keep hiring more and more qualified pharmacists.

Understand, this isn't something that will occur across the board, if at all.
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^^ not this crap again. You and I went back and forth about this a few years ago. I will say it again...hospital pharmacists are not immune to the supply and demand curve.

I think you just have a hard time accepting the fact that hospital pharmacists are not special. This saturation hurts everyone. New grads will be paid less. Raises will be 0-3% per year. Upper management will then question why they are paying pharmacist A $50 an hour while paying pharmacist B $65 an hour for the same work. It is just a matter of time.
 
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BMBiology said:
^^ not this crap again. You and I went back and forth about this a few years ago. Hospital pharmacists are not immune to the supply and demand curve.

I think you just have a hard time accepting the fact that hospital pharmacists are not special. This saturation hurts everyone. New grads will be paid less. Raises will be 0-3% per year. Upper management will then question why they are paying pharmacist A $50 an hour while paying pharmacist B $65 an hour for the same work. It is just a matter of time.
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Global warming is coming..and the melting ice will flood the world.
 
Had no idea that you'd take anything from ASHP as a gospel...so let's be fair about it. If you'll side with the 60% of the panel who believe the salary will decline...then would you side with 92% of the panel who believes this?

Or will you pick and choose what you want to believe for your own agenda?

In essentially all health systems that have pharmacy residents, the residents will provide essential patient care services (i.e., if the residents were not there, additional pharmacist staff would have to be hired for these essential services).
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Forty-eight percent of panelists believe it is “very likely” and 35% said it is “somewhat likely” that at least 50% of health systems will require accredited residency training for entry-level clinical positions in pharmacy practice.
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So we're looking at decreasing the salary, increasing the length of training time, and increasing the cost of school. Lets say the salary declines to 95k starting in 2020, that's equivalent to about $75,000 in 2008 at a modest 2% inflation rate. I don't see how the profession can keep attracting talented students with these numbers. Either schools will have to close or there will have to be a filtering mechanism similar to law schools.
 
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Its Z said:
Global warming is coming..and the melting ice will flood the world.
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Better pack your things and work at Z's unnamed hospital where pharmacists are being overpaid and grad interns make as much as a pharmacist.

Whatever happened to you opening multiple clinics run by pharmacists? Too bad he didn't realize the provider status approved in California is still very limited.

I am just telling you how things are. I don't sugarcoat it like this guy. Things are bad and you will see some real pain in the next 5 years.
 
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Its Z said:
You could go 5 days 8 hours...

But this will increase total FTE because someone else will have to work the 4th day, correct?
Click to expand...


The point is to spend as little time in BFE as possible, not add a day!

But yes, 12hr shifts actually increase the FTE situation.
 
BMBiology said:
I think you just have a hard time accepting the fact that hospital pharmacists are not special.
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My pharmacists are very special. They provide services that's vital to our patients, hospital, and the community in collaboration with other health care and non-health care practitioners. They're valued by our system administration and health care cannot function without pharmacists where I am, both legally and clinically. I'm not downplaying other field of pharmacists. Because I'm not one and that's not what I do. But everyday, hospital pharmacists contribute to improve outcomes.

So get over it dude.
 
BMBiology said:
Better pack your things and work at Z's unnamed hospital where pharmacists are being overpaid and grad interns make as much as a pharmacist.
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But you wouldn't qualify to work for me.

Whatever happened to you opening multiple clinics run by pharmacists? Too bad he didn't realize the provider status approved in California is still very limited.
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It's going well. Put a pharmacist in a pain clinic. Sorry to disappoint you. And while you were asleep, we started a brand new PGY1, opened a retail pharmacy with a robust transitional care, oncology infusion center, and personally...a consulting business I have to turn down some jobs...including a major PBM in CA.
 
njac said:
The point is to spend as little time in BFE as possible, not add a day!

But yes, 12hr shifts actually increase the FTE situation.
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You think your admin will approve it?
 
Its Z said:
But you wouldn't qualify to work for me.



It's going well. Put a pharmacist in a pain clinic. Sorry to disappoint you. And while you were asleep, we started a brand new PGY1, opened a retail pharmacy with a robust transitional care, oncology infusion center, and personally...a consulting business I have to turn down some jobs...including a major PBM in CA.
Click to expand...

Then go ahead and send us a link to all of these things you are doing. Post a link to a job posting at your hospital is also sufficient.

Be careful of this guy. He is in his late 40s/50s and he likes it when young students/new grads PM him for job opportunities.
 
BMBiology said:
^^ not this crap again. You and I went back and forth about this a few years ago. I will say it again...hospital pharmacists are not immune to the supply and demand curve.

I think you just have a hard time accepting the fact that hospital pharmacists are not special. This saturation hurts everyone. New grads will be paid less. Raises will be 0-3% per year. Upper management will then question why they are paying pharmacist A $50 an hour while paying pharmacist B $65 an hour for the same work. It is just a matter of time.
Click to expand...
We are offering new grads less now. It was $110,000 yearly 2 years ago for a new grad and last year we dropped it to 98,000. We still had plenty of applicants. Raises have been 0-2% for several years and there is no differential for nights or weekends.

We are also expanding services. The pharmacy world Z lives in sounds a lot like mine. Pharmacy is valued and doctors want us on their services. The job satisfaction is real. The health system is going to find out what that job satisfaction is worth in real dollars. How low they can go before having less applicants or turnover due to pay stagnation.
 
OmiPharmD said:
We are offering new grads less now. It was $110,000 yearly 2 years ago for a new grad and last year we dropped it to 98,000. We still had plenty of applicants. Raises have been 0-2% for several years and there is no differential for nights or weekends.
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That is a big cut! If you take inflation into consideration, it is even a bigger cut.

How long do new grads need to wait for benefits?
 
BMBiology said:
That is a big cut! If you take inflation into consideration, it is even a bigger cut.

How long do new grads need to wait for benefits?
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Vacation time starts accruing from day 1 and they are eligible for benefits as soon as they start except for the 401k. That becomes available after 6 months. We are non-profit so they can also take advantage of PSLF.
 
Its Z said:
You think your admin will approve it?
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They've said they would be open to discuss it.

They like having a younger more clinically savvy team, and they understand that those of us who aren't married with kids yet are getting really tired of spending the majority of our time 60-90 minutes outside of the city.
 
OmiPharmD said:
We are offering new grads less now. It was $110,000 yearly 2 years ago for a new grad and last year we dropped it to 98,000. We still had plenty of applicants. Raises have been 0-2% for several years and there is no differential for nights or weekends.

We are also expanding services. The pharmacy world Z lives in sounds a lot like mine. Pharmacy is valued and doctors want us on their services. The job satisfaction is real. The health system is going to find out what that job satisfaction is worth in real dollars. How low they can go before having less applicants or turnover due to pay stagnation.
Click to expand...

I concur with OmiPharmD. Our starting wage is now 97k. It was 10-15k higher only 2 years ago. This starting wage is applied regardless of residency status. I know of PGY2s that have gotten this same pay-rate with no room for negotiation.

Management has been attacking pay and benefits in far more ways than this. I made a list of them in this thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...st-pay-will-be-reduced-in-the-future.1121061/
 
Its Z said:
Had no idea that you'd take anything from ASHP as a gospel...so let's be fair about it. If you'll side with the 60% of the panel who believe the salary will decline...then would you side with 92% of the panel who believes this?

Or will you pick and choose what you want to believe for your own agenda?

"In essentially all health systems that have pharmacy residents, the residents will provide essential patient care services (i.e., if the residents were not there, additional pharmacist staff would have to be hired for these essential services)."
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Doesn't that mean that you will just take on more residents and pay them $40k or whatever to do the work of the pharmacy department INSTEAD OF fully paid pharmacists?

This one is even better:

"Twenty-five percent said it is “very likely” and 41 percent said it is “somewhat likely” that at least 50% of health-system pharmacy students on experiential rotations will provide essential patient-care services."

Just use unpaid students to do all the work!
 
Its Z said:
But you wouldn't qualify to work for me.

It's going well. Put a pharmacist in a pain clinic. Sorry to disappoint you. And while you were asleep, we started a brand new PGY1, opened a retail pharmacy with a robust transitional care, oncology infusion center, and personally...a consulting business I have to turn down some jobs...including a major PBM in CA.
Click to expand...

We've been expanding too! And we all got raises! But then again this post is subject to selective hearing.

Hey where's this thing you said you'd send me a long time ago?
 
njac said:
They've said they would be open to discuss it.

They like having a younger more clinically savvy team, and they understand that those of us who aren't married with kids yet are getting really tired of spending the majority of our time 60-90 minutes outside of the city.
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Oh I'd love a 12hr day.
 
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Cuts also depend on weather the hospital is unionized or not. It is a lot easier to cut when it is not.
 
confettiflyer said:
We've been expanding too! And we all got raises! But then again this post is subject to selective hearing.

Hey where's this thing you said you'd send me a long time ago?
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Heh.. your DOP and I are very good friends...you know that.. and I have pictures to prove it. Was with him last week at a conference and of course at ASHP. How familiar are you with his "Car" troubles??
 
confettiflyer said:
Oh I'd love a 12hr day.
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I did that for 4 years, I loved my time off (four day weekends). Although most RPh's I work with start to decline in productivity at 9-10 hours. I personally would advocate for 4 x 10 hour days
 
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pezdispenser said:
Doesn't that mean that you will just take on more residents and pay them $40k or whatever to do the work of the pharmacy department INSTEAD OF fully paid pharmacists?
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Actually residency salary is much higher than that in addition to full pharmacist rate on weekend staffing. And the residents do work that weren't being done by the pharmacists. Their work is the gravy on top.

This one is even better:

"Twenty-five percent said it is “very likely” and 41 percent said it is “somewhat likely” that at least 50% of health-system pharmacy students on experiential rotations will provide essential patient-care services."

Just use unpaid students to do all the work!
Click to expand...

For every hour of student work, preceptors must also spend time making sure their work is competent.

Work experience by students and residents in my opinion are invaluable that schools don't teach.
 
Its Z said:
Heh.. your DOP and I are very good friends...you know that.. and I have pictures to prove it. Was with him last week at a conference and of course at ASHP. How familiar are you with his "Car" troubles??
Click to expand...

Very..very....very familiar. lol.
 
Dred Pirate said:
Ours are not declining, but they are stagnating. What used to be average raises of 5-7% are now 2%, 2.75% if you are a top performer.
ugh
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The only time I have every gotten a 5 - 7% raise is by changing jobs (that was easy to do during the 2000's) Especially hospital, I've never seen a hospital giving a 5 - 7% raise. The different workplaces I've had were either raises frozen, 0 - 3%, or 0 - 5% (with nobody ever actually getting the top 3% or 5%.

Wages are definitely stagnating, and they are falling for new grads. Where this will end up at remains to be seen.
 
geez pharmacy....hopefully things do not get crazy in OT where I want to be. Between lack of jacks, high debt, and this.....how do you recent pharmacy grads manage? I am a pharm tech right now and one of my pharmacists wants to move to the hospitals. retail is drain. now the salaries will go down?? I really hope u guys are savings your money and wiping your debt ASAP. clearly, there is no security anymore. forget about that bmw and brand new house for now.
what about other areas of pharmacy?? this sounds like a horrible investment.....
 
BidingMyTime said:
The only time I have every gotten a 5 - 7% raise is by changing jobs (that was easy to do during the 2000's) Especially hospital, I've never seen a hospital giving a 5 - 7% raise. The different workplaces I've had were either raises frozen, 0 - 3%, or 0 - 5% (with nobody ever actually getting the top 3% or 5%.

Wages are definitely stagnating, and they are falling for new grads. Where this will end up at remains to be seen.
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our hospital have 10% raises in back to back years around 2000. (to bad I wasn't working then). But I have averaged 5% a year until the last two,
 
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