Europe/Aus vs. New school

[Biochemistry2014]

Not worth the risk either way. Strengthen your application and reapply.

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[feeling-dizzy]

Go D.O.; yes you have private loan, but you are pretty much guaranteed a resident spot

 

[Winged Scapula]

I wonder if I can retire to the Caribbean and get a faculty job teaching?

Aren't a lot of SGU and Ross Faculty retired US physicians who come down for a few months at a time to teach?

 

[SpicyFalafel]

This is totally inaccurate. NYState accreditation doesn't mean much besides marketing. States don't accredit med schools. There's no "automatic matching" in any state. You're still an IMG, it's just that Sackler grads tend to match "better" due to personal connections and familiarity and preference of certain NY institutions to Sackler grads instead of other IMGs.

I don't see where do you see in my post anything implying a state accrediting medical school. Majority of Sackler grads match only in New york, this is have been know since they started their back in 1976. Its all about their connections in New york, do not you think this is an advantage for anyone goes to this particularly. Every knows the match rate for this school is significantly higher than any other off shore med school, and I personally do not think is it going to drop/vanish because there is an agreement between 2 countries.

 

[SpicyFalafel]

I think almost every post in this thread by @ATL.F.Doc has been inaccurate, no offense.

You can receive loans from schools in the UK. While I'm not too sure about the schools OP mentions, almost every program in Atlantic Bridge allows federal loans (http://www.atlanticbridge.com/financial-aid/usa/?context=medicine)

IMGs are not all the same. The chances of matching back in the US may be only marginally better at a more reputable international program, but the difference is that schools in the UK/Australia can still match to residencies, they just aren't necessarily in the US.

Discover loans are a terrible idea. Even if approved, the cap is too small to cover any meaningful expense. Further, the interest rate would be astronomical.

100% match isn't a thing lol.

@itsogre is correct.

No offense taken. Atlantic bridge program is not linked to any school in the UK, but only a few schools in Ireland.
IMG's are IMG's, take with a grain of salt. Yes, you can match at any of those countries, and your point is?. I do not think it is viable option to the OP main interest.

 

[SpicyFalafel]

There's piles of them that can get federal loans in the UK lol. King's College London comes to mind off the top of my head, but there's at least four or five more I could dig up quickly. When in doubt, check the international FAFSA code list.

I really did not dig into it that far. I know European schools tend to get some American student into their programs, and I did not know some UK schools joined the pile.

 

[SpicyFalafel]

To be fair, i was on my phone so i didn't know ATL.F.Doc was a premed (judging by their username, i thought he was a resident/attending). So i was surprised to hear... well inaccuracies

lol

 

[Affiche]

No offense taken. Atlantic bridge program is not linked to any school in the UK, but only a few schools in Ireland.
IMG's are IMG's, take with a grain of salt. Yes, you can match at any of those countries, and your point is?. I do not think it is viable option to the OP main interest.

Oops! For some reason I thought it included UK schools. Either way, you're still spewing inaccurate, unresearched nonsense. Look for any medical school in the document: https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/sites/default/files/international-schools-in-federal-loan-programs.xlsx

Edit: My point is that job prospects for someone graduating from a prestigious medical school in the UK are very different than someone graduating from the Caribbean. Thus, the prospects for crippling debt are different as well. You'd be foolish to honestly believe that all IMGs are the same.

 

[deleted158872]

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Mad Jack]

Thanks for the advice.

If I choose the D.O. school, how will my chances of practicing Medicine in the UK in the future? I'm asking this because my spouse's career might lead us to the UK ~10-15 years after graduation. Do D.Os have full recognition in Europe?

That's a bit different. UK physicians have full recognition in the EU. I don't have a lot of time to get into the nuances, but if you plan on eventually practicing in the UK, go to a UK school. That's a no brainer.

 

[deleted158872]

That's a bit different. UK physicians have full recognition in the EU. I don't have a lot of time to get into the nuances, but if you plan on eventually practicing in the UK, go to a UK school. That's a no brainer.

US is my first choice for practicing.
I'd like the path to practicing in the UK to stay open as well, just in case...

 

[allantois]

You will never pay off your US med school debt practicing medicine in UK. Medicine is not an easily transferable across border field.

 

[Mad Jack]

US is my first choice for practicing.
I'd like the path to practicing in the UK to stays open as well, just in case...

You'll very likely limit your doors in the US at a UK school. You will, on the other hand, limit your chances in the UK substantially if you train anywhere in the US, MD or DO, because of the way EU work regulations are (UK grads get first dibs, other EU members get second dibs, and everyone else gets the scraps that are left over for foundation years). Also keep in mind that you will have to repeat your GME if you eventually go to the UK no matter what.

 

[bobiest]

With the number of "imported docs" dropping to 6500 this year and projected to under 3500 in 3-5 years, the math of getting a slot simply drops making the off shore pathway much more risky for any graduate to land a residency slot.

Could you please give some further info about the projection of "imported docs" dropping to under 3500 in 3-5 years? Do you know why? Thanks!

 

[allantois]

Could you please give some further info about the projection of "imported docs" dropping to under 3500 in 3-5 years? Do you know why? Thanks!

I cannot verify the projections but the reason is that AOA and ACGME are merging into a unified accreditation system, a bunch of AOA residencies will be closing down for not meeting proper standarts and DO students will be seeking spots previously taken by IMGs. Couple that with the ever increasing number of both MD and DO graduates and apparent LCME willingness to accredit a for-profit school recently; we should expect that there will soon be no to very little spots left for IMGs.

 

[deleted158872]

Which for-profit school did LCME accredit?
Btw, what is the difference between a for-profit school and private schools with hefty pricetags?

 

[WedgeDawg]

Which for-profit school did LCME accredit?
Btw, what is the difference between a for-profit school and private schools with hefty pricetag?

I think he is talking about CNU which I believe is not fully accredited yet (but on its way). For-profit schools are beholden to shareholders, so they are contractually obligated to make decisions that prioritize profit for their shareholders. Private schools do not have shareholders and thus are free from such decisions. However, critics and cynics might say that there is no functional difference between for-profit and non-profit schools, while their opponents might point out examples of achievement of comparable institutions to contend that non-profit schools are more invested in meaningful education than their for-profit counterparts.

 

[ramifications]

IMG is IMG, school reputation does not play role/ advances applicant when it comes to applying to US residency, we all know that.

I will go DO with no doubt, simply because, it is US medical school.

OP, bottom line, if you want to practice in the US go to US medical school.

but a DO that is unaccredited?

 

[SpicyFalafel]

but a DO that is unaccredited?

In my understanding any school earns provisional accreditation, eventually, will be fully accredited. I am not an expert in this area, but based on some students' experience with other professional programs such as pharmD for example, the school will get full accreditation . @Goro may correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[Mad Jack]

but a DO that is unaccredited?

It is exceedingly rare for a program that is given provisional accreditation to not receive full status at a later date. I don't know if it's ever happened, actually.

 

[Goro]

100% correct on both accounts.

Even in the worst-case scenario, if a COM were to get shut down, the students would be spread around to the other COMs.

My learned colleague SouthernS is correct that students at any new school have a harder time because the faculty have to figure out how to get their curriculum working (this is less of an issue for branch campuses, because they just outright steal the template used at the parent school), first time COMLEX I pass rates are lower, COMLEX I scores are lower, and grads have a harder time finding residencies because the school is an unknown entity to PDs. Yet good self-learners and self-starters will always do well, in any learning environment.

In my understanding any school earns provisional accreditation, eventually, will be fully accredited. I am not an expert in this area, but based on some students' experience with other professional programs such as pharmD for example, the school will get full accreditation . @Goro may correct me if I am mistaken.

It is exceedingly rare for a program that is given provisional accreditation to not receive full status at a later date. I don't know if it's ever happened, actually.

 

[bobiest]

I cannot verify the projections but the reason is that AOA and ACGME are merging into a unified accreditation system, a bunch of AOA residencies will be closing down for not meeting proper standarts and DO students will be seeking spots previously taken by IMGs. Couple that with the ever increasing number of both MD and DO graduates and apparent LCME willingness to accredit a for-profit school recently; we should expect that there will soon be no to very little spots left for IMGs.

Thanks! Good analysis.

 

[gyngyn]

I wonder if I can retire to the Caribbean and get a faculty job teaching?

I am delighted to say that one of our most unpleasant former faculty members relocated to teach in the Caribbean a few years ago.
If he can get a job there, it can't be too hard.

 

[Stagg737]

Sorry, I should have clarified that majority of US medical schools have 100% match.

Edit: Would you go to any of these schools if you were pre-med.?

You're confusing 100% match with 100% placement. 100% placement means every grad ends up in a residency spot, though some won't initially match and have to scramble to find a position. This is common. 100% match means that every person in the school gets into a residency without having to go through SOAP or scramble. This is exceedingly rare, even at top 10 schools as there is typically at least 1 or 2 people who shoot for fields they have no business ranking or just only rank a few spots thinking they'll be fine. My rule when applying was that I tried not to apply to any school that didn't have a 90% match rate, and strongly preferred schools that had over a 95% match rate (which, to me at least, shows that it was an issue with a few students applying foolishly rather than a curriculum or administrative issue).

It is exceedingly rare for a program that is given provisional accreditation to not receive full status at a later date. I don't know if it's ever happened, actually.

A quick Wikipedia search showed none have have closed due to losing accreditation (since the Flexner report) other than Tuoro New Jersey, though that school apparently never accepted a class in the first place.

 

[deleted158872]

Can someone please post a link to a list of schools and match rates & percentage matched?

 

[bobiest]

Simple Math. US MD and DO schools have increased in the number of total seats and thus graduates who will be looking for residency slots, while the number of slots has little or no growth. For example, 2005 had 15,760 MD graduates. By 2014 that number increased to 18,078. A more dramatic way to see it is in the 30% overall increase in medical school enrollment from 2002-03 to 2017-18

https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/335244/050213.html
According to results of the survey, released during the Center’s 9th Annual Physician Workforce Research Conference, first-year medical school enrollment is projected to reach 21,434 in 2017-18. This number represents a 30 percent increase above first-year enrollment in 2002-03, the baseline year used to calculate the enrollment increases that the AAMC called for in 2006 .

https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/374000/03212014.html
According to the most recent AAMC Survey of Medical School Enrollment Plans, U.S. medical school (M.D.) enrollment will increase to 21,349 students by 2018. Combined with the larger number of graduates from osteopathic schools (D.O.), which also are expanding to address the shortage, as well as increasing numbers of international graduates entering the Match, there may be too few residency positions for all the newly graduated doctors in the not-too-distant future.

Thanks for the info! I wish that residency positions would also grow in proportion to new student enrollment.

 

[bobiest]

Dont hold your breath. Residency programs are funded almost entirely via Medicare or other federal programs, though some states are increasing ever so slightly in funding some slots, but not enough to even be a blip. There will likely some very minor increase in the next few years as unused/unfilled DO slots, which can be held or shifted by those programs will likely slowly morph into allopathic slots. Rather, they will stop being DO specific and open to all. But again, that numbers below a 1,000, maybe effectively a 1-2% total increase over today during the next few years. Again, nary a blip

Thanks! The prospect of federal support is not good.

 

[Goro]

That would be equivalent to an about 10 new med schools worth of residents.

Dont hold your breath. Residency programs are funded almost entirely via Medicare or other federal programs, though some states are increasing ever so slightly in funding some slots, but not enough to even be a blip. There will likely some very minor increase in the next few years as unused/unfilled DO slots, which can be held or shifted by those programs will likely slowly morph into allopathic slots. Rather, they will stop being DO specific and open to all. But again, that numbers below a 1,000, maybe effectively a 1-2% total increase over today during the next few years. Again, nary a blip

 

[You're My Boy Blue]

Lol a Ross University ad popped up on the top of the page. This is not their target market

 

[bobiest]

But we are getting 300-400 increase in DO grads a year so it wipes it out in 3 years. Add the about 500-600 projected rough increase in MD grads and we are down at least a 1,000 in 3. All in all, these slots will be eaten up in a NY minute

The whole system of producing licensed doctors has problems. The net effect is to gradually close the doors to IMGs forcing them to go to foreign countries. Global medicine then becomes narrow patriotic medicine.

 

[deleted158872]

The whole system of producing licensed doctors has problems. The net effect is to gradually close the doors to IMGs forcing them to go to foreign countries. Global medicine then becomes narrow patriotic medicine.

This applies to other countries as well: It is extremely hard to come to the EU and Australia and work as a doctor because they, too, give priority to their citizens.

 

[deleted158872]

...

 

[deleted158872]

Given how much the match is tightening up, I'd still recommend the US school. You'll be far more screwed if you don't match and have 300k in public debt than you are matching with 300k in private debt. There is also much talk of a retroactive cap of just over 50k on PSLF, I really wouldn't count on it being there when you graduate.

Thats what it all boils down to in the end, risking enormous money versus residency slot placement. Recommending any student for off-shore is something I just dont feel comfortable in doing any more

i have questions regarding which option is better in the long run:

how do you predict LUCOM will fare in the match vs. IMGs?
considering the tightening of the match in the upcoming years, and the huge priority that AMGs are given over IMGs, would you give up LUCOM acceptance in favor of a foreign medical school (in UK/Australia)? assuming whatever school you'd be attending lets you do 2 years of rotations in the U.S. at Ochsner health system and Thomas Jefferson hospital...

 

[Mad Jack]

i have questions regarding which option is better in the long run:

how do you predict LUCOM will fare in the match vs. IMGs?
considering the tightening of the match in the upcoming years, and the huge priority that AMGs are given over IMGs, would you give up LUCOM acceptance in favor of a foreign medical school (in UK/Australia)? assuming whatever school you'd be attending lets you do 2 years of rotations in the U.S. at Ochsner health system and Thomas Jefferson hospital...

LUCOM... Ugh... I have ethical reservations about that school, so I can't answer this question in an unbiased or fair manner. There is no way I could give over 300k of my cash to a place as awful as Liberty. But will they match a higher percentage of their students than foreign schools? Definitely.

 

[deleted158872]

thanks for your replies