Every man is a fool or physician by 40.

[davidsf2]

The quotation refers to a person either being wise enough to know their own constitution and being able to look after themselves by middle age or they're a fool.

However I'm 40 this year and although in younger life I wanted to take this a bit more literally, life got in the way.

After my electrical apprenticeship finished I took electronics and electrical engineering as a first degree, management as a second degree, professional qualifications and had a sweet well paid career which enabled me to travel. The industry fell flat, I was out of work for
some time and had to relocate back home. There have been limited opportunities in my field. After moving back here I went back to electrical
work, became more involved in health and safety and went waaaayyy beyond the reading list, so I've got most of the first year reading list.

I was always interested in medicine, my grandfather was an ambulanceman in the front line in WW1 and I grew up reading his books. My Father worked in a psych hospitial. I took first aid courses at 12 when I was in a youth organisation and was teaching the younger lads soon after.

So I've no life sciences qualifications at all, would my degrees, professional qualifications, occupational health and safety qualifications demonstrate numeracy, literacy, ability to apply scientific method and <insert attributes here> enough to secure a place at med school?

Secondary (high) school only allowed to take 2 sciences so I've no biology background other than what I'm reading up now or what I've read up when I was working at the med school.

Is 40 too old to be applying for medical school? I appreciate medicine is the most expensive course of education for the universities to put students through per head, so they would prefer to take on students with a longer potential period of practice. There are however age discrimination laws
in the UK, though I'm not sure if they relate to education as well as employment.

Has anyone taken on a MB & ChB course aged over 40 on the boards here? With a non life sciences back ground? If so how did you fit in with the cohort? It just struck me at the medical library the other day I'd probably be left to study on my own being too old to fit in to any informal
study groups.

I'm also not in a good position to get an academic reference as I've haven't been in full time education for a long time, and had to study for my professional and occupational exams direct from the published syllabi as there weren't any courses for them. How might I overome this hurdle?

A conversion to medicine / access to medicine course isn't possible locally.

A relative (rather distant) teaches at the medical school and may be involved in selection of students but I don't want to use nepotism to get in.

Davidsf2 (United Kingdom)

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[DrMidlife]

Two things for starters:

1. Those of us over 40 in this forum, many who are female, and many of whom are starting med school this summer, already think you're a tool for your title and are not likely feeling all that friendly towards you before we even open your post.

2. If you read lots of posts before you ask questions, you get better help.

In the US there's no legal age discrimination, but folks get rejected all the time for bad grades (I think you call them "marks") and bad attitudes.

See this thread for the ages of folks here pursuing med school. And look for ScottishChap for some possible insights on studying in the US vs. UK.

Best of luck to you.

P.S. lots of folks are both fools and physicians by 40.

 

[Squiggy]

David don't you just have to get like three A-levels in a row to get into Med School in the UK? It seems much more straightforward than we have it here in the US with all the BS ECs and stuff.

 

[davidsf2]

It's not so clear cut here due to the separatism that still exists.

For 'English' Universities it's 3 A levels - I think 2As and a B at least.
In 'Scotland', where I am it's 5 highers (3 Sciences, English & Maths - in one sitting) or 3 A levels.

The local FE college in my experience isn't very good either when I was a student or when they were offering me a teaching post. They dont offer A levels which would only be 3 exams.
They do offer SQA Highers or whatever they are called this week but evening classes are only on Monday to Thursday nights meaning I could only do 4 max, assuming they are all on separate nights. I'd probably be able to do Maths (H or A), Physics (H or A), Chemistry(H) and less likely English H without a course.

English would be a sticking point as I've read one fiction book in my adult life and couldn't write an exam essay on a novel or Shakespeare work. I can't write creatively and English as a subject is a creative discipline rather than a technical one. Technical writing (lab reports and the like) I'm fine with but there isn't a Technical English subject.
I'd need to take biology as a higher or A level.

Aaargh! This site is rather annoying me by logging me out after I've typed a response and hit the 'submit reply' button.

 

[Scottish Chap]

The quotation refers to a person either being wise enough to know their own constitution and being able to look after themselves by middle age or they're a fool.

However I'm 40 this year and although in younger life I wanted to take this a bit more literally, life got in the way.

After my electrical apprenticeship finished I took electronics and electrical engineering as a first degree, management as a second degree, professional qualifications and had a sweet well paid career which enabled me to travel. The industry fell flat, I was out of work for
some time and had to relocate back home. There have been limited opportunities in my field. After moving back here I went back to electrical
work, became more involved in health and safety and went waaaayyy beyond the reading list, so I've got most of the first year reading list.

I was always interested in medicine, my grandfather was an ambulanceman in the front line in WW1 and I grew up reading his books. My Father worked in a psych hospitial. I took first aid courses at 12 when I was in a youth organisation and was teaching the younger lads soon after.

So I've no life sciences qualifications at all, would my degrees, professional qualifications, occupational health and safety qualifications demonstrate numeracy, literacy, ability to apply scientific method and <insert attributes here> enough to secure a place at med school?

Secondary (high) school only allowed to take 2 sciences so I've no biology background other than what I'm reading up now or what I've read up when I was working at the med school.

Is 40 too old to be applying for medical school? I appreciate medicine is the most expensive course of education for the universities to put students through per head, so they would prefer to take on students with a longer potential period of practice. There are however age discrimination laws
in the UK, though I'm not sure if they relate to education as well as employment.

Has anyone taken on a MB & ChB course aged over 40 on the boards here? With a non life sciences back ground? If so how did you fit in with the cohort? It just struck me at the medical library the other day I'd probably be left to study on my own being too old to fit in to any informal
study groups.

I'm also not in a good position to get an academic reference as I've haven't been in full time education for a long time, and had to study for my professional and occupational exams direct from the published syllabi as there weren't any courses for them. How might I overome this hurdle?

A conversion to medicine / access to medicine course isn't possible locally.

A relative (rather distant) teaches at the medical school and may be involved in selection of students but I don't want to use nepotism to get in.

Davidsf2 (United Kingdom)

Welcome.

Prior to 1998 when I finished my first degree, the U.K. did actually set an upper age limit of 32 for starting a medical course because it was felt that you cannot satisfactorily give back to the profession. However, that has since changed and you will note that several entering MBChB/MBBS students are now >40. In short, your age won't be an issue unless you make it one.

If you have a 2:1 or a first class honours, there are several medical schools in the U.K. that accept graduate applicants (even those without science Highers or A-levels!), as long as you score well on the entrance exam (GAMSAT or UKCAT--depending on where you apply). There are more five-year courses with similar rules. If you have a 2:2 honours, your choice of schools will be severely limited, but there are one or two that will read your application.

I did five highers back in the day and, honestly, if you have a good first degree, I think doing another few science highers to make your point is a waste of time. Most medical schools do want some chemistry and the only thing that might be worthwhile is for you to take higher chemistry (and perhaps biology). It's only a year long, and this will give you a head start for the GAMSAT if you end up taking it (it has chemistry, biology, organic chemistry, English; not sure about physics, but I doubt it).

I strongly urge you to read the British equivalent of this forum, for we are really geared toward helping non-traditional students gain entry into U.S. medical schools. Here is the link: http://www.newmediamedicine.com/forum/

Good luck!

 

[davidsf2]

Welcome.

Prior to 1998 when I finished my first degree, the U.K. did actually set an upper age limit of 32 for starting a medical course because it was felt that you cannot satisfactorily give back to the profession. However, that has since changed and you will note that several entering MBChB/MBBS students are now >40. In short, your age won't be an issue unless you make it one.

If you have a 2:1 or a first class honours, there are several medical schools in the U.K. that accept graduate applicants (even those without science Highers or A-levels!), as long as you score well on the entrance exam (GAMSAT or UKCAT--depending on where you apply). There are more five-year courses with similar rules. If you have a 2:2 honours, your choice of schools will be severely limited, but there are one or two that will read your application.

I did five highers back in the day and, honestly, if you have a good first degree, I think doing another few science highers to make your point is a waste of time. Most medical schools do want some chemistry and the only thing that might be worthwhile is for you to take higher chemistry (and perhaps biology). It's only a year long, and this will give you a head start for the GAMSAT if you end up taking it (it has chemistry, biology, organic chemistry, English; not sure about physics, but I doubt it).

I strongly urge you to read the British equivalent of this forum, for we are really geared toward helping non-traditional students gain entry into U.S. medical schools. Here is the link: http://www.newmediamedicine.com/forum/

Good luck!

Excellent thanks for the link and the advice.

I did type in a longer response but the site wiped it again when I submitted it.

 

[nontrdgsbuiucmd]

best of luck, wish I knew the rules in the UK better to offer assistance with that area.

wanted to pass along what I heard when first considering starting science courses in my mid-30's from an admissions member who I called --I was most concerned about my age among the factors of admission, as my grades were strong and I had not yet taken our MCAT/pre-medical standard exam.

The admissions officer asked why I kept asking questions about my age, stated that it was against the law for this to be considered as a factor of the application in the US, and said essentially that this would only be an issue if I made it one.

I too will be over 40 upon completion of medical school.

 

[davidsf2]

Thanks, I've done a little research on the recent cohorts and there are in fact people in their 20s. 30s. 40s in first year and second year at the school I'm applying for.

I presumed the school might make an issue of it but that is not the case. If I get to interview and it's mentioned, which it shouldn't be (I found it's unlawful) I'll just mention the mature students' names.

I'll still need to do Higher Chemistry. I'll do some biology too (though it's not necesssary for admission) so if I do get in I won't have tooo much to catch up on. I've had a look at the exam papers in the bookshops and it's all do-able.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Thanks, I've done a little research on the recent cohorts and there are in fact people in their 20s. 30s. 40s in first year and second year at the school I'm applying for.

I presumed the school might make an issue of it but that is not the case. If I get to interview and it's mentioned, which it shouldn't be (I found it's unlawful) I'll just mention the mature students' names.

I'll still need to do Higher Chemistry. I'll do some biology too (though it's not necesssary for admission) so if I do get in I won't have tooo much to catch up on. I've had a look at the exam papers in the bookshops and it's all do-able.

Good for you! Study hard for your higher chemistry. It's not too bad. You're going to get an A! Good luck.

 

[davidsf2]

Good for you! Study hard for your higher chemistry. It's not too bad. You're going to get an A! Good luck.

I just did a past paper http://www.sqa.org.uk/files/nq/c01212_sqp.pdf
I just did the multi choice and got 18/40. The ones I could answer were from what I remembered from O grade at school and what I remember from electrical work, meaning the chemistry I did at uni was zip all use. Whoodathunkit!

I'm quite surprised and pleased with that as a baseline since it's 24 years since I left school at 15.

[/smug boast]

 

[Scottish Chap]

I just did a past paper http://www.sqa.org.uk/files/nq/c01212_sqp.pdf
I just did the multi choice and got 18/40. The ones I could answer were from what I remembered from O grade at school and what I remember from electrical work, meaning the chemistry I did at uni was zip all use. Whoodathunkit!

I'm quite surprised and pleased with that as a baseline since it's 24 years since I left school at 15.

[/smug boast]

O grades? Now you're showing your age. Kidding. When standard grades replaced O grades in the late 80s/early 90s, some of the O grade stuff got moved to the Higher syllabus - looks like you remembered it. Now, go and get that A in Higher chemistry. Best of luck.

 

[Herukti]

disgusting how many of you doctors are narcissistic. The man asks for help and he gets trolled

 

[puppylatte]

disgusting how many of you doctors are narcissistic. The man asks for help and he gets trolled

Agree with the sentiment (just not the remark about narcissism). The OPs title was quite clearly a metaphor

EDIT: n/m, this is a necrobump. Why would you raise a thread to make a comment like that as a new poster?

I'll show myself out.

 

[jl lin]

disgusting how many of you doctors are narcissistic. The man asks for help and he gets trolled

I disagree. He didn't get trolled. Dr. Midlife hit the appropriate nails on the respective heads is all. I mean his title alone. . . really? Come on. Sometimes approach is everything.

And sometimes questions as his have, in one form or another, been asked and answered ad nauseum. I mean this is a recurrent theme that comes up ALL THE TIME for God's sake. Use the search feature. Do some online research and so forth, and then come with a specific, well-thought-out question. Seriously, no offense OP, but your title is so toolish.

 

[QofQuimica]

Agree with the sentiment (just not the remark about narcissism). The OPs title was quite clearly a metaphor

EDIT: n/m, this is a necrobump. Why would you raise a thread to make a comment like that as a new poster?

I'll show myself out.

S/he was just *so* disgusted by the physician narcissism (even though Drmidlife was only a premed in 2009 and still is not yet a doctor) displayed here that it took five whole years before s/he could bear to even post on this thread.

I must have missed this thread the first time around; understandable since I was on my third year med student rotations in February of 2009. Either way, I want a refund of the fifty seconds I just spent skimming through it. As far as entertainment (or even a display of open narcissism) goes, this thread was pretty disappointing.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I disagree. He didn't get trolled. Dr. Midlife hit the appropriate nails on the respective heads is all. I mean his title alone. . . really? Come on. Sometimes approach is everything.

And sometimes questions as his have, in one form or another, been asked and answered ad nauseum. I mean this is a recurrent theme that comes up ALL THE TIME for God's sake. Use the search feature. Do some online research and so forth, and then come with a specific, well-thought-out question. Seriously, no offense OP, but your title is so toolish.

His thread is a drop in the bucket in comparison to the one's in the international forums. Good lord those guys ask the same question, even though the answer has been provided like 20 times in the same thread! Even though this guys title was down right ridiculous, his post was still better thought out. Trust me you have not seen bad.

 

[Blively]

Why is okay for a 60 year old to run for US Presidency but a 40 year old can't continue his/her education to become a physician?

 

[QofQuimica]

Why is okay for a 60 year old to run for US Presidency but a 40 year old can't continue his/her education to become a physician?

Who ever said a 40-year-old couldn't become a physician? There are plenty of people who have. As for running for the presidency, no doubt if it took 10+ years of training and a decade of lost wages to reach the point of being prez after you first decided to run, a lot fewer 60-year-olds would be jonesing for the job.

 

[Blively]

I think presidential candidates spend more than 10 years of their life preparing for the position. Plus these individuals usually leave their million dollar careers to be the president. If age isn't a factor than why do we have so may concerned people. And why do some med school admission committee members discourage older students from pursuing medicine at age 40+?

 

[QofQuimica]

Because they went through medical training in their 20s, and they can't imagine wanting to do it in one's 40s. Heck, I did it in my 30s, and I can't imagine wanting to do it in my 40s. Then again, there is a certain bliss that goes along with ignorance, that I no longer have.