Excellent VA job opportunity

[JeSuisPathology]

The Anatomic Pathology Service is seeking a Board eligible/Board Certified Anatomical Pathologist, in association and affiliation with the University of California San Francisco, at the Assistant or Associate Professor level in the Health Science Clinical series. This full-time position will be 5/8 at the VA and 3/8 at UCSF. Duties and responsibilities for this position include, but are not limited to the following:

• Routine anatomic pathology work including surgical pathology, cytopathology and autopsy
• Routine neuropathology work including muscle biopsies and participation in an ophthalmic pathology outreach program.
• Perform superficial fine needle aspirations in for inpatients and outpatients, and perform immediate assessment for fine needle aspiration biopsies done under image / ultrasound guidance.
• Serve as mentor/instructor for medical students, residents, fellows and other health care professionals.
• Perform duties as assigned within clinical privileges to meet the needs of the medical center.
• Take pathology on-call responsibilities shared with the other staff pathologists.
• Review cases with physicians in other services for patient care issues.
• Finalize notes and reports in electronic medical records (CPRS and VISTA) in a timely manner.
• Participate in and comply with all quality assurance programs and reviews.

Salary of $99,957 to $240,000 per year is based on full-time appointment at the VA. Salary will be pro-rated per hours work. Expected mimimum salary of a full-time physician is $160,000 per year.

===================

This is my first post, although I've been intermittently reading posts on here for the past 15 years or so.

I'm an attending prof at what folks refer to as a "top tier" academic institution.

We take the best resident applicants, and take in fellows from all types of programs.

Neither have we produced a resident, nor have we graduated a fellow, that can do all that is required in the above ad competently.

This will likely be the first of a few posts in which I rant about the serious oversupply in our field.

I am literally exhausted from trying to convince the CAP that we have a major issue- especially after having met with so many key officials at this past USCAP.

Discussion welcomed.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Tissue issue]

Have you discussed this with BU Path?

 

[coroner]

Neither have we produced a resident, nor have we graduated a fellow, that can do all that is required in the above ad competently.

Of course not?!?! Look at that job ad, no one would qualify to meet those requirements “competently” as you stated. If they’re not graduating from a top-tier institution, I can guarantee you they’re not being produced anywhere else. Neuro/optho combo alone constitutes maybe 1% of practicing pathologists out there. What are the chances within this select group of individuals there's an even more exclusive niche who competently sign out general surg/cytopath, perform FNA’s, autopsies, AND teach…zero. Even if there was some kind of uber-hybrid BC’d x 5 pathologist who could do all this, the job ain’t worth $160 G’s

 

[bosco77]

That job description made happy to have the job that I have.
And the salary description made me ecstatic.

 

[gbwillner]

Maybe this was posted by someone other than the chair of the path department and didn't think it was unreasonable?

Other thoughts aside, I am not sure what this job posting has to do with the job market.

 

[yaah]

OK, well if your criticisms about not producing a trainee that can do this job are valid, then it really has little to do with the job market. That's a training problem. If your argument is that jobs can demand new hires do too much stuff and that means the job market is atrocious, that's kind of a weak argument.

 

[tiredguy]

I would argue that any AP-trained pathologist can do that job easily. All they have to do is send out all the eye and muscle specimens and perform a bunch of non-diagnostic superficial FNA's. Add federal government benefits and job security on to the minimum $160,000 full time salary and it could be somebody's dream job!

 

[Tissue issue]

Have you discussed your concerns about the oversupply with your chairperson? Please share.

 

[Alteran]

Its a VA position primarily. You need only get through the first 6 months of probation and then you're home free. There can't possibly be that many brain tumors (that aren't high-grade and/or difficult) and enuclation specimens in 6 months. Once you get through the probationary period, you're home free. Turf out the autopsies to the residents and the muscle biopsies and eye balls to the Joint...you're now a federal employee. And at $240K/year in San Francisco, you're really not incentivized to work to hard because you'll be living out of a card board box next to the dumpster behind the hospital.

 

[JeSuisPathology]

Have you discussed your concerns about the oversupply with your chairperson? Please share.

Of course. I also mentioned in another thread that I had discussed this issue on several occasions last week in Boston, with many people in leadership/management roles (in academia, USCAP, CAP). Part of the problem is that these folks- unfortunately including many of my own colleagues- come from big name institutions, whose graduates generally find good jobs. Perhaps they don't see the struggles of the many graduates hailing from small, lesser-known community-based programs. (Maybe it's easier to look the other way?) Or perhaps the folks perceived to be in positions of power are too busy fighting their battles- too busy to look up and have a proactive look at the very real horrible job market.

 

[univlad]

Perhaps they already have a candidate in mind for the job who can do this. They may be trying to recruit her/him specifically but have to advertise the position widely.

 

[KluverB]

Perhaps they already have a candidate in mind for the job who can do this. They may be trying to recruit her/him specifically but have to advertise the position widely.

^^^^^
This.

 

[Tissue issue]

Of course. I also mentioned in another thread that I had discussed this issue on several occasions last week in Boston, with many people in leadership/management roles (in academia, USCAP, CAP). Part of the problem is that these folks- unfortunately including many of my own colleagues- come from big name institutions, whose graduates generally find good jobs. Perhaps they don't see the struggles of the many graduates hailing from small, lesser-known community-based programs. (Maybe it's easier to look the other way?) Or perhaps the folks perceived to be in positions of power are too busy fighting their battles- too busy to look up and have a proactive look at the very real horrible job market..

Could I please ask you what your definition of a "good job" is (in both academic and private settings). Also, I have to disagree with your insinuation that only small community-based program grads are having a hard time-I know that there are fellows from more than one of the very top programs who have been struggling to find work.

It's hard for anyone to claim ignorance............
http://www.ascp.org/PDF/Fellowship-Reports/2014-Job-Market-Surveys.pdf

 

[gbwillner]

Could I please ask you what your definition of a "good job" is (in both academic and private settings). Also, I have to disagree with your insinuation that only small community-based program grads are having a hard time-I know that there are fellows from more than one of the very top programs who have been struggling to find work.

It's hard for anyone to claim ignorance............
http://www.ascp.org/PDF/Fellowship-Reports/2014-Job-Market-Surveys.pdf

As I mentioned earlier (or in another thread) these data are difficult to interpret because they are gathered before most applicants secure employment. So the data may say that 75% or whatever of 4th years or fellows didn't get work, but that's because the test was taken in early March and they may not have signed a contract yet. A much more reliable survey would be from 6 months AFTER the academic year. But you'd have to pay for that information, whereas here they just add questions to a test that all residents are already taking.

 

[Over9000]

As I mentioned earlier (or in another thread) these data are difficult to interpret because they are gathered before most applicants secure employment. So the data may say that 75% or whatever of 4th years or fellows didn't get work, but that's because the test was taken in early March and they may not have signed a contract yet. A much more reliable survey would be from 6 months AFTER the academic year. But you'd have to pay for that information, whereas here they just add questions to a test that all residents are already taking.

I think that would be worth paying for. The ASCP seems like it is more accountable to its members than the CAP, so I would suggest we all write the ASCP, by letter mail, individually, asking for such a survey to be made.

 

[Tissue issue]

JeSuisPathology- Okay, I guess you didn't want to discuss my previous post.. Could I please ask you what your definition of a "good job" is (in both academic and private settings). Also, I have to disagree with your insinuation that only small community-based program grads are having a hard time-I know that there are fellows from more than one of the very top programs who have been struggling to find work.

Would you mind telling us what advice you would give to a medical student considering pathology who asks you "but what about the job market?- I'm willing to move around but I hear it's quite bad"

 

[JeSuisPathology]

JeSuisPathology- Okay, I guess you didn't want to discuss my previous post.. Could I please ask you what your definition of a "good job" is (in both academic and private settings). Also, I have to disagree with your insinuation that only small community-based program grads are having a hard time-I know that there are fellows from more than one of the very top programs who have been struggling to find work.

Would you mind telling us what advice you would give to a medical student considering pathology who asks you "but what about the job market?- I'm willing to move around but I hear it's quite bad"

Apologies, my intention was not to ignore you.

When I am approached by medical students and trainees for career advice, I take a little bit of time to first get to know them, their particular background, their interests, etc.

The medical landscape is universally volatile in this particular age that we practice in. I am not adequately equipped to be able to reliably forecast what job opportunities will look like in Pathology tomorrow. Today however, in my view as an academician, the overall job market, simply put, is not good. But this of course, is something that you already know, as well as any current trainee would know. You will certainly find people who will tell you that if you network enough, multiple doors will be open for you. I have seen this to be true in some instances, and in others not so much. As a sidenote, one of my colleagues interestingly comments that our specialty has very much so become corporatized in the sense that one needs to network, some would say suck up, in order to land a semi – desirable job. Meaning, if one is book smart, but lacks polished social skills, then in today's market it would be exceedingly difficult to find a job that that individual would consider to be good. In every other specialty that I have come across, a job can be had in the general geographic desired area, irrespective of personality traits. Why? Because of increased availability of job opportunities in those specialties. I will also add that I am increasingly hearing "top-notch" academicians mention that the good old days where they could have picked up the phone to call a private lab and basically have their trainee hired may be alarmingly coming to an end.

 

[Over9000]

I tell medical students to avoid pathology. Of course, they don't need me to tell them that, what with the AMG match rate often being sub 50%. Yet we still manage to fill every spot...hmmm... a very high quality specialty we have here.

 

[Tissue issue]

Apologies, my intention was not to ignore you.

When I am approached by medical students and trainees for career advice, I take a little bit of time to first get to know them, their particular background, their interests, etc.

The medical landscape is universally volatile in this particular age that we practice in. I am not adequately equipped to be able to reliably forecast what job opportunities will look like in Pathology tomorrow. Today however, in my view as an academician, the overall job market, simply put, is not good. But this of course, is something that you already know, as well as any current trainee would know. You will certainly find people who will tell you that if you network enough, multiple doors will be open for you. I have seen this to be true in some instances, and in others not so much. As a sidenote, one of my colleagues interestingly comments that our specialty has very much so become corporatized in the sense that one needs to network, some would say suck up, in order to land a semi – desirable job. Meaning, if one is book smart, but lacks polished social skills, then in today's market it would be exceedingly difficult to find a job that that individual would consider to be good. In every other specialty that I have come across, a job can be had in the general geographic desired area, irrespective of personality traits. Why? Because of increased availability of job opportunities in those specialties. I will also add that I am increasingly hearing "top-notch" academicians mention that the good old days where they could have picked up the phone to call a private lab and basically have their trainee hired may be alarmingly coming to an end. .

Thanks for your response. I found the areas that I highlighted particularly interesting. I of course agree that the job market is not good. However, you are one of the very few academic pathologists (that we know of) who is openly admitting this on this forum. Are any of the top-notch academicians that you mentioned willing to advocate for reducing residency slots? If not, what is their plan to fix the situation?

 

[JeSuisPathology]

.
Are any of the top-notch academicians that you mentioned willing to advocate for reducing residency slots? If not, what is their plan to fix the situation?

From what I gathered at this past USCAP, the folks that I spoke with who are at the professor/administrator level at academic institutions ALL know of trainees who are facing very serious situations with regards to finding employment. They of course would like to advocate, however, it seems that none of them are in any position to take any type of lead. In the past few years, the giants who you know of in the field have been asked to do more for their departments in terms of administrative duties at the departmental and institutional levels. Some have also been signing out more material. Salaries have not been commensurate with increase in work obligations. Some are counting down their days and look to retire, others are simply trying to keep up with their own personal workflows, and simply don't have time to look at the big picture and actually do something about it. Yet others are finding it much easier to simply look the other way. Some of those who have been vocal have unfortunately faced various forms of retribution from leadership (I cannot expand more on this). All things considered, it is hard to formulate any type of plan to effect a positive change for our field at the academic level. In my personal attempt to do so, I have learned much. As I have said before, the medical landscape is very fluid right now, and there are excruciatingly many moving parts in our particular puzzle. If you are currently training at a major academic center, perhaps you should speak with your leadership that went to USCAP and ask what they learned with regards to issues that you guys face as trainees.

 

[bberlioz]

This is a typical example of a flawed capitalist model:

The short term gain that pathology residency programs has received by hiring a large number of (seemingly cheaper) trainees to do the work of (more expensive) pathology assistants is finally catching up to them.

If they had previously invested in more pathology assistants, our position would be much easier to bargain.

I think our best strategy right now is to select the highest caliber of trainees to pass the pathology board exam, and perhaps filter the wave of new trainees flooding the market to only the very best.

 

[path24]

Another update on the job market.

"I received over 130 CV's for that position so your job service is VERY effective."

How to end your medical career...go into pathology. It is freaking scary.

 

[jp123ok]

Another update on the job market.

"I received over 130 CV's for that position so your job service is VERY effective."

I saw that too. It's from Pathology Outlines "Testimonials regarding the effectiveness of the Jobs page" http://www.pathologyoutlines.com/Testimonialsjob.html

Here's another quote: "We received 41 CV's in 6 hours." Dr. M, Connecticut, 24 March 2015

The page reads like a horror story if you are looking for a job.

 

[JeSuisPathology]

I saw that too. It's from Pathology Outlines "Testimonials regarding the effectiveness of the Jobs page" http://www.pathologyoutlines.com/Testimonialsjob.html

Here's another quote: "We received 41 CV's in 6 hours." Dr. M, Connecticut, 24 March 2015

The page reads like a horror story if you are looking for a job.

I have referred colleagues at my institution, other institutions, and the CAP to that exact same page, by way of email; I have yet to receive a single reply back.

It is utterly disgusting that the market should be so devastatingly stacked against our trainees.

 

[Inez2000]

O.M.G.:

Testimonials regarding the effectiveness of the Jobs page:

"I received over 130 CV's for that position so your job service is VERY effective." Dr. Ernest Wu, Florida, 8 April 2015

"PathologyOutlines.com brings us the CV's we need." Ms. R, Maryland, 24 March 2015

"We received 41 CV's in 6 hours." Dr. M, Connecticut, 24 March 2015

"We had a great response and I am very happy to tell you the position has been filled." Ms. Dolores Faulkner, West Virginia, 17 March 2015

"I can happily let you know that we received over 80 applications in the first three weeks." Ms. Vanessa Rodas-Eral, Maryland, 13 March 2015

"Overwhelming response. Thanks!" Ms. Kristen Ortiz, Oregon, 12 March 2015

"We had an excellent response with over 80 applicants. Thanks." Dr. M., Ohio, 12 March 2015

"I just wanted to thank you for updating your aggregated job postings frequently. I visit your website almost daily and by far the best and most updated way of finding out opportunities online." Dr. Serkan Ozel, 6 March 2015

"We had a very good response, thank you. The position has been filled." Dr. Selwyn Baptist, 26 February 2015

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[Alteran]

When I took the hemepath boards about this time a year ago, we were told that the "market was beginning to improve" before we were subjected to 8 hours of misery (albeit not as bad as the AP/CP boards). Looking over the time stamps of the above quotes, that apparently isn't the case and probably won't be for my entire career.

According to the 2013-2014 ACGME Data Book publication (which you can see for yourself on their website under the publications tab), there were 2,341 AP/CP residents (PGY 1-4) of which 610 were slated to graduate that year. Its quite literally a game of musical chairs folks. For pathology graduates however, the music plays for a microsecond and there are no good seats...only rickety stools with varying quantities of thumbtacks on them. I suspect almost all of those 610 went into a fellowship because if you add up all the fellows in every discipline that year (listed underneath), that number adds up to 597. So, there is an almost equal number of fellowship spots as there are graduating residents. I think Internal Medicine has about the same ratio as well, but the other specialties don't appear to have such numbers (it's late and I don't feel like doing accurate math, and besides the numbers speak for themselves).

By the grace of God himself I landed a good job I can see myself at for many more years. But I wouldn't wish what I had to go through to get it on anyone and I actively advise medical students, if asked, against pathology as a viable career option. They look stunned when I tell them not to go into this field even though they find what I do very interesting and engaging. But then I tell them the numbers and they're intelligent people, obviously, and catch on real quick on why its a problematic career choice.

 

[Inez2000]

There is less than one new job a day on PathologyOutlines. There are 600 new pathologists a year. You do the math Dr. Remick. Make a graph if it helps.

 

[Mace1370]

I'm probably going to get laughed off for saying this, but not all jobs will be posted on path outlines. Also, I don't really see how a comment like, "We had a great response to the ad" supports the proposition that the job market is bad. I'm not saying it's good (haven't gotten to that part yet and won't for a long while), but I think you guys do yourselves a disservice when you make assumptions and exaggerate like this.

 

[Autopsy101]

not all jobs will be posted on path outlines.

I've seen a few jobs posted on other sites.

http://careers.pathologyjobstoday.org/c/search_results.cfm?site_id=536

 

[Over9000]

I'm probably going to get laughed off for saying this, but not all jobs will be posted on path outlines. Also, I don't really see how a comment like, "We had a great response to the ad" supports the proposition that the job market is bad. I'm not saying it's good (haven't gotten to that part yet and won't for a long while), but I think you guys do yourselves a disservice when you make assumptions and exaggerate like this.

You're making a good point, but any job posting that gets hundreds of applicants means that it is either an excellent job or that the supply side of the market is saturated, regardless of how many other jobs are not posted. I'm pretty sure derm postings don't have that many people applying.

 

[cmz]

I am just looking at the area I'm at right now... and I know of at least a few possible openings on the horizon. These positions are NEVER advertised. It's all word of mouth.

 

[Mace1370]

You're making a good point, but any job posting that gets hundreds of applicants means that it is either an excellent job or that the supply side of the market is saturated, regardless of how many other jobs are not posted. I'm pretty sure derm postings don't have that many people applying.

I see what you're saying. The thing that I'm not sure we are considering is that with online job postings it would be extremely easy to apply to hundreds of potential positions. A lot of the comments talk about getting a really huge number of applicants. Could many of those applicants be the same for each job posting? I think that is likely.

I can't speak for derm job postings, so I don't know how many applicants they get. I bet you're right and that it is way less. Derm has also done a much better job at cutting off foreign grads from their field. I have a feeling a lot of foreign grads that do path have trouble finding work and spam job listings like the ones on path outlines.

 

[Inez2000]

if you are in a position where you have good connections where introductions will be made with those with un-advertised jobs, then you will be OK. If you don't have connections, then you will be applying to the advertised jobs, which get a large number of qualified applicants. Yes there are jobs posted on other sites. Point is, having gone through this recently, there are more graduates than jobs. Period. It is not an over-exaggeration.

 

[jp123ok]

I can't speak for derm job postings, so I don't know how many applicants they get. I bet you're right and that it is way less. Derm has also done a much better job at cutting off foreign grads from their field. I have a feeling a lot of foreign grads that do path have trouble finding work and spam job listings like the ones on path outlines.

In a decent job market no one would be talking about having to "know the right people" to find a job. In a good job market, such as derm, recruiters constantly contact the residents offering them jobs. As you go through your residency training, keep track of the number of times you get contacted by a recruiter. I guarantee that it won't be many and I wouldn't be at all surprised if you are not contacted at all.

 

[Alteran]

One of the wonderful things about being a physician is that getting a job and/or having a career isn't at the forefront of the vast majority of medical graduates' thoughts, unless you're a pathologist. Sure the family med guy or the lowly internist gets ragged on repeatedly, but they don't have to worry about employment. Actually, recruiters bend over backwards to get them and will cut virtually any deal they can get away with short of murder (and that's probably negotiable too) to have a half-way decent generalist sign on.

By comparison, I was not contacted once during my training about a possible job. At all. I must have sent over 30 applications to jobs that I had either heard about personally or were advertised. I maybe heard back from three of the places I applied to months after telling me thanks but no thanks. The other labs/practices didn't even do me the courtesy of wasting keystrokes on a computer to tell me don't bother; such is the level of disrespect shown to job seeking graduates.

Academia is creating about 600 pathologists/year. A significant percentage (about 30-40%) of those graduates are FMGs/IMGs with little to no debt, so a low-ball starting salary isn't as painful to them as it is to an AMG with ~$200K debt. The more we graduate who can or will settle for less, the worse the overall playing field gets. We clearly have not balanced supply with demand here. Thus far, no one can show me where in the US can 600 new pathologists/year be continuously employed outside of a fellowship or "instructor" position every year for at least the next decade without pie in the sky predictions about aging pathologists retiring (which obviously hasn't happened).

Before I hop off my soap box, I would also like to warn any academics who may be reading this saying to themselves "doesn't apply to me": your jobs are not as safe as you think they are. Because of extreme over supply and the extremely low reimbursement of the clientele I think most of you see, there's been a movement I've noticed where academic pathology departments are taken over by private hospitals and/or corporate entities (I can think of two off the top of my head but I will not further elaborate) and the first order of business is to clean house.

 

[Mace1370]

In a decent job market no one would be talking about having to "know the right people" to find a job. In a good job market, such as derm, recruiters constantly contact the residents offering them jobs. As you go through your residency training, keep track of the number of times you get contacted by a recruiter. I guarantee that it won't be many and I wouldn't be at all surprised if you are not contacted at all.

Ya, I agree. I probably didn't do a very good job stressing that from all I've heard it sounds like the path job market is bad (like I said earlier, I'm not to that point yet and won't be for a while).

The main point I was trying to make is that reading too much into random online testimonials and exaggerating their implications only weakens our argument that the job market is bad.