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Failed nursing program switched to pre-med. Need lots of advice/help.

Discussion in 'What Are My Chances?' started by ilovebiomilktea, 04.15.12.

  1. ilovebiomilktea

    ilovebiomilktea

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    Background: I've always wanted to be a doctor but due to family financial issues, I decided to go the nursing route first (to finish early and help my family). Sadly, I failed the nursing program when I was only a semester away from graduating. I'm disqualified and cannot re-apply to the same program in the university I'm in. If I apply to other nursing programs in my state, I have to start all over again (none of my nursing credits will transfer). But being a doctor is what I really want to do, and for me I feel like this is my chance to get back on that route.

    Academic background: I had 3.7 cGPA, but failing two nursing courses brought my gpa to 2.7. Just made the switch last semester and so far I have an A in chem and B in bio, will be taking physics, ochem, and molecular genetics in the Fall.

    Research interest: I'm really interested in genetics, virology, immunology, neuroscience, and cancer research.

    After three semesters of clinical rotation in the nursing program, I know I want to go into pediatrics or the ER as a doctor.

    "Dream" school (because I know it's impossible for me to get in, but I'll try anyway): Perelman or Hopkins

    My tons of questions/concerns :(
    1. Will my failing out of the nursing program affect my chances of getting into med school?
    2. I go to a University in NV that I'm pretty sure a lot of you guys have not even heard of, will this affect my chances?
    3. I have three years to complete my bio degree and will be taking my mcat in summer 2014, is this enough time for me to raise my gpa? I'm currently taking a minor in Chinese, should I take another one that is science/allied health-related?

    I know I have a lot of time in my hands to greatly improve my standing as a pre-med student, but switching to pre-med was an important decision I made. I really feel that I'm treading uncharted waters and any advice, even if it's not related to my questions, will be greatly appreciated. :) Thanks!

    Btw, if my post is at the wrong thread, I apologize. I'm pretty new to the website.
  2. Heavens Cloud

    Heavens Cloud

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    Why would a med school take a student who has already failed in a easier program...? You'll need an OUTSTANDING reason for why you failed, and to retake those classes somehow, and maybe you'll have a chance at DO.
  3. sliceofbread136

    sliceofbread136

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    Maybe it wasn't a good fit for him/her? However OP, you're really going to have to demonstrate that you can handle med school academically with constant excellent grades in the future. Until you do that, you won't be getting in.
  4. Temperature101

    Temperature101

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    You might be wrong on that...Some nursing classes might be harder than some of the premed classes ...Pharmacology is one of them.
    miss x likes this.
  5. Catalystik

    Catalystik Providing Herd Protection SDN Advisor

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    1) For MD schools, all grades previously earned in post HS institutions are included in the application GPA; you are obliged to have a formal transcript sent by each program directly to the application service. As your cGPA is currently well below the average for accepted MD students, you'll need to earn a lot of As to redeem it.

    AACOMAS DO schools also require all transcripts, however, they have a grade forgiveness policy. If you can retake those two classes at another school for the same credits or greater, you can essentially erase them from your application GPA. The course name need not be identical. The content must be similar per the schools' course catalogs.

    It would be very unusual for a school not to give you a second chance. Why did you fail out? Was an Institutional Action involved?

    2) Is it regionally accredited? Is it a community college?

    3) How many credits have you earned so far, including the Fs, but not including any Ws?
    Last edited: 04.15.12
  6. Catalystik

    Catalystik Providing Herd Protection SDN Advisor

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    And Nursing Theory can be a bear if you don't have identical thought patterns to your instructor's.
    JacksonsDad likes this.
  7. TriagePreMed

    TriagePreMed Removed

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    LOL Sure.

    Either way, it still stands that if you can't hack it in Nursing, you have no chance in Medical School. It's as simple as that.
  8. sliceofbread136

    sliceofbread136

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    Bwahahaha. I think you need a reality check. Premed classes are about as basic as it gets.
  9. ilovebiomilktea

    ilovebiomilktea

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    Unfortunately, I cannot simply retake those two classes. For me to retake those two classes, would mean for me to apply to a nursing school and start from semester 1 of nursing school. One reason why: I've been out of clinical for a year now. I failed two classes over summer. In my university if you fail ONE class, you can retake that class and only get held back by one semester. If you fail TWO classes at the same time, even if it is your first time failing (doesn't matter even if you were A's and B's before, as is my case), you're out of the program. I failed the theoretical part of both classes but my clinical instructors told me I'm outstanding clinically (we go to class 2 or 3x a week and clinical rotation the rest of the week, our classes are not on a separate semester from our clinical rotation) I got an F in one (my first and only F). I failed the other class because I missed the passing grade by 1 point. I got an overall grade of 74 instead of 75.

    I go to a University and have over 150 credits taken. I did a dual-credit program when I was in high school, that's why I have so much college credits even though I'm only a sophomore.
  10. TriagePreMed

    TriagePreMed Removed

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    Yet nursing students don't get to take General Chemistry, Physics, or Organic Chemistry. At most, they have a truncated version of Chemistry that's for health sciences. Without this "as basic as it gets" background how do you expect their classes to be harder than premed classes? Perhaps pharmacology requires more memorization and such, but they can't be can't be as conceptually hard as premed classes when the prerequisites to take them are drastically below those of premeds.
  11. sliceofbread136

    sliceofbread136

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    They take classes that are required to perform the function of nursing, which I can definitely believe are harder than many premed classes.

    Gen chem and physics=mostly common sense
    bio and ochem=mostly common sense and sheer memorization

    As much as you'd like to think otherwise there are no concepts taught in the premed curriculum that are difficult to grasp at all.
  12. TriagePreMed

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    Do you have a 2.7 with 150 units under your belt? If that's the case, you're going to have a hard time recovering and becoming competitive for medical school. Have you considered other fields like Respiratory Therapy, Paramedic, Physical Therapy, etc.?
  13. ilovebiomilktea

    ilovebiomilktea

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    Trust me, I feel this way. It's hard to get off my head that I've somehow become a failure. When I put a goal in my head, I make sure it happens. You have no idea how frustrated a person can be when that goal is not reached, that's why I'm asking advice from people who's been through it to shed some light on me :) On the other hand, I can assure you though that if I have to crawl my way to med school I will. I'm more determined to sacrifice more to become a doctor, than when I was in the nursing program.
  14. music2doc

    music2doc Student of Mad Doctoring

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    Honestly, I'd say this alone pretty much eliminates you from consideration given the number of "extremely qualified" applicants schools turn away each year. (To paraphrase the CUSOM Director of Admissions, "I would honestly be comfortable presenting the First Year Medical Class to the Dean even if our first three entire classes -- 480 offers -- all turned down invitations and I ended up with an entire class of our 4th string picks. Our applicants are that qualified.") A number of secondaries ask questions such as "Are you currently or have you ever matriculated at or attended any allied health or medical program?" and when you say "Yes, I started but did not complete an RN program" they will begin asking questions (assuming they don't just auto-reject at that point). Failing out of a health professions type program is going to put you in nearly the same group as the ones who failed out of med school (which are not even considered at all by most US MD programs).

    I guess my big question to you would be this: What makes you think you could be successful in an MD or DO program if you were unable to succeed at an RN program to the point where they actually failed you out? (I.e., in the opinion of the faculty, you could not be remediated to a passable level and/or were completely unfit for a career in nursing.)
    Shouldn't really matter much.... It's the RN program failing you out that is the big elephant in the room. Everything else is of minor importance in comparison (assuming you get your GPA and MCAT up and fulfill the other "pre-med requirements" like anyone else).
    Get out a calculator and find out for yourself.... Taking initiative to do things yourself (or problem solve a way to get the solution if you you're not sure how) is a critical skill for a future physician.

    The minor won't matter in the least. If you're a fluent Chinese speaker it may be of marginal value when applying in certain locations.
    I think it is critical you sit down with someone knowledgeable who can be honest with you and get their feedback on this decision. You need to figure out why you failed out of your RN program at such a late point in the game. Was it just coursework? (What will you do about that?) Was it a clinical course? If so, why did you fail? (Professional issues? Personal issues? Academic issues? Misconduct?) Failing out in your final year/semester seems to be an even bigger red flag in that it's not like you can walk away from it and say you simply don't feel nursing was right for you. (That's not very convincing in your last year....) Once you've dealt with the issues, you really need to find a way to redeem yourself. As it stands, I doubt most any school would want to take on the risk of a student who previously failed out of nursing school.
  15. TriagePreMed

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    [​IMG]
    Watch out, we got a badass over here who got a 4.0 in his pre-med (you did, right?)

    Comparing classes about the function of nursing to classes that are conceptual is pretty apples to oranges. I could argue that an EMT class is harder than pre-med because of the function they perform, yet we don't see every EMT having a field day in premed classes. While we are at it, we should say school to become a mechanic is harder than premed. The function of a mechanic is pretty hard.
  16. music2doc

    music2doc Student of Mad Doctoring

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    I agree; however, I think what TriagePreMed probably should have said (or maybe meant to say) would be that MEDICAL SCHOOL is much tougher than Nursing School. Pre-Med and Pre-Nursing would be the appropriate comparison. If the OP could not make it through Nursing School, I doubt Medical School would go any better. Making it through Pre-Med is the easy part; pathetically easy.
  17. TriagePreMed

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    Well, I don't think you're necessarily out of the race. I know I made mistakes as an undergrad that now as a second career student I would never make. The big issue I see here is being able to prove that you can hack it in medical school. That aura of doubt will be all over your application. Whether you can overcome it or not, I don't know. Maybe you should re-do nursing from the bottom if necessary. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I just find it very hard for an ADCOM to give a pass on failing nursing and then believing you can make it med school.
  18. sliceofbread136

    sliceofbread136

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    Yes, I do have a 4.0. What do you have?

    There are concepts that go into learning the functions of nurse. They also have the added burden of learning clinical and procedural material in addition to these concepts, so many might argue that it is harder than premed. You can hate on nursing school all you want and try to feel superior as a premed (which I find kind of hilarious), but it's pretty baseless.
  19. TriagePreMed

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    I have a 3.8 in my post-baccalaureate work. I'm not ashamed by it.

    I don't think I'm "superior" as a premed. I'm simply saying that what you learn in nursing school isn't conceptually harder than that of premed. If you want to say being labor intensive is harder, sure, but again, that would make a mechanic or even an EMT having a "harder" curriculum than a premed. Apples to oranges.
  20. 411309

    411309 zzzz Gold Donor

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    I dunno if orgo has chanced since I had it, but to say it's just "memorization" is laughable. organic is way more application then memorization, you have to be able to understand how the reactions work and often why it works that way. my organic teacher was brutal, he made us go through the mechanism for virtually every reaction. You can know that elecron withdrawing groups increase acidity but knowning why they do is also important.

    Regardless of whether or not nurses have hard classes or not, that's not the point. I think the OP has a fairly reasonable and good attitude.

    Sure it will look a little bad that you failed out of nursing but it was the last semester after all, they may meet you halfway if you can give a good reason. They may also overlook it if you counter it with a steep upward trend and good mcat scores. Your chances are far from diminished, DO is an option too. There have been many in worse positions then you that got into a medical school through time, hard work, and money. You have to ask yourself how much your willing to sacrifice for it at this point because you may end up having to invest a lot.

    Take the pre reqs, study until you master the material and get As. Let me tell you something if you get As in your pre reqs studying for the mcat will be sooooo much easier. Solid knowledge of the material+practice and you can easily get that nice mcat score you want.

    Work hard, you can get into med school. Comes down to how much you want. There are people more qualified then me that can answer your specific questions. If you have any mcat questions, feel free to join my constant ranting in the mcat forum.

    Edit- you have 150 credits already? as sophmore? What were you thinking? lol. you may need to do an smp program after..going to be hard but not impossible.
  21. Sephiroth

    Sephiroth One-winged Angel

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    Wait, this math isn't working out right. If you have 150 credits, how did 2 failed classes drop you to a 2.7 from a 3.7? Even if they were both 5 credit classes you should still have over 3.4.
  22. ilovebiomilktea

    ilovebiomilktea

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    Just plain coursework. There's this one question in geriatrics that up till now I still can't grasp as to what the answer is. The question was something that you would put in your patient's room and some of the answers were a couch he/she bought when he/she was married, a family portrait, picture of a dog, etc etc. I just know that you shouldn't put the couch because what if the patient was divorced (but then again they always tell us not to add more to what the question was asking).

    Anyway, I really appreciate what everyone has been telling me so far. It encourages me more to really work my butt off to prove myself.
  23. 411309

    411309 zzzz Gold Donor

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    sounds like the VR section of the mcat lol
  24. music2doc

    music2doc Student of Mad Doctoring

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    What were you doing decorating your patient's room in the first place? And "possible divorce" isn't really a good reason since you should know the patient's psychosocial history (i.e., whether or not there was a divorce). The family should really be the ones involved in decorating. It's not your place as the RN, I wouldn't think....
  25. ilovebiomilktea

    ilovebiomilktea

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    Some of our classes are between 5-7/8 credits depending on how much credit points your clinical has. For example, med-surg nursing is 7 credits while a simple physical assessment class would only be 3 credits. I have gotten two C's I think aside from the two classes I failed :(
  26. Santorum Surge

    Santorum Surge

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    Homeslice, if you have a 4.0 in the pre-reqs you are obviously very smart. Is that what you were waiting to hear? Most pre-meds have to try really hard to do well in the prereqs. I wouldn't go so far as to say they struggle, but it takes a lot of time and hard work. And orgo is not "mostly common sense," unless, again, you're just really smart. It's looking like the A cutoff in OrgoII will be a ~75% this semester! :eek:
  27. music2doc

    music2doc Student of Mad Doctoring

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    I'd say ochem is pretty much "common sense" if you learned gen chem well. If you didn't catch the conceptual aspect of gen chem (which many students don't), THEN ochem is truly a royal pain in the *ss. The thing is that it's really a matter of noticing patterns, memorizing those few patterns, and then applying the 5-10 general "rules" of ochem (most of which are simply derivations of gen chem topics) to about 560 different distinct reactions. (At least that's how many my ochem 1 & 2 classes covered in total.)

    As a side note, I'm always a bit surprised when schools curve based on student performance. 75% shouldn't "look like it will be the cut off for an A." It should be defined by previous classes' performance with somewhere around 3-5% of the class in that range....
  28. Santorum Surge

    Santorum Surge

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    The professor wants a certain percentage of students in the A range, a certain percentage in the B range, etc. His logic may or may not be informed by the performance of previous classes. At this point, all I know is there are about 15 students with a grade above 75%.
  29. 411309

    411309 zzzz Gold Donor

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    this sounds idiotic. Common sense? Common sense is looking at the clouds, noticing many of them are gray, and coming to the conclusion that it will probably rain. Common sense is not "oh if I add a peroxide to HBR it will be anti markon instead of markon because the peroxide blah blah". Common sense implies that the knowledge is common. I'm pretty sure my barber could not explain the concept of delocalized pi orbitals by using common sense.

    the way some of you kids sound, you were able to get a 4.0 in every science class there is because science is just common knowledge that everyone happens to know. I'm sorry but to say organic chemistry is common sense if you did well in general chemistry, is like saying "if i can jump 5 feet off a building and live, i can jump 500 feet off a building and live."

    maybe I just don't have the vast superior intellect that 3/4s sdn seem to think they posses.
  30. music2doc

    music2doc Student of Mad Doctoring

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    There were quotes around common sense.... That said, it is common sense to take what you already know and apply it to something new. That is the common sense part. It is common sense to say, "When I was a kid, positive and negative ends of magnets attracted, so it makes sense that if that carbon is positive, something negative would probably be attracted to it." It is not common sense to say, "Oxygens are usually negative and pull away electrons." It is common sense to say, "If some negative is taken away from that carbon by oxygen, then the carbon probably becomes less negative (i.e., more positive)." The common sense is in the application of the principle. I do not expect the majority of the population to know the facts necessary to solve the puzzle; however, given the necessary facts, it would be somewhat uncommon to lack the necessary faculties to understand something like that. I suspect much of the difficulty lies in the thought process and attitude many people enter such courses with that the things they are studying are so abstract and intangible as to not follow the same laws of the universe they have known since they were toddlers.

    The dictionary definition of common sense is as follows:
    In other words, common sense involves integrating that which you have gathered together. If you are given the necessary pieces of the puzzle, you should be able to put them together.
  31. gumbyj

    gumbyj

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    Are you a native English speaker?

    You are going to need to be a pretty awesome applicant to fail out of a nursing program and gain a med school acceptance.
  32. sliceofbread136

    sliceofbread136

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    You still don't understand. Nurses learn conceptual information too. What concept have you learned as a premed that you can definitively say is a harder concept than any nurse has learn? And stop using your flawed analogy, learning to work in a clinical setting is very, and is one of the most challenging aspects of med school.

    Anyway, I think I'm done trying to convince you. Have fun living in your fantasy world (with most other premeds) where you think your classes are harder than the classes of everyone else.
  33. Sephiroth

    Sephiroth One-winged Angel

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    Even if all 4 of these classes were 8 credits and you got 2 F's and 2 C's and had a 3.7 prior to these classes, and have 150 credits after them, you would still have over a 3.0
  34. TriagePreMed

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    What I find curious is why you didn't challenge yourself with the hard curriculum of nursing if O. Chem is just common sense to you and you were pulling off an easy 4.0. But please, humor me with what conceptual things nurses learn that are harder than premed, since you seem to believe that.
  35. sliceofbread136

    sliceofbread136

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    Most of ochem can be figured out using concepts learned in 10th grade pre-ap chem. We've learned these things so many times it's basically common sense. Other stuff to know like reagents are just base memorization. Don't even get me started talking about premed physics and gen chem....

    I can definitely understand people having more trouble with these subjects, especially if they don't come naturally. But to declare them on another level of difficulty than what other people take (like nurses), is in my opinion, laughable. Maybe you can do that if you're a grad student in high level science or in med school, but not pre-med.
  36. sliceofbread136

    sliceofbread136

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    I'm not interested in being a nurse? And I don't know the specifics of the challenges in nursing, so I reserve my judgement. Why can't you acknowledge that nurses might have to deal with subjects as challenging as basic chemistry and physics? Is it really that hard to believe?
  37. 235788

    235788 God Complex

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    yeah because they are designed to be taken in the first two years.

    Could you honestly say nursing classes have anything on upper division bio's? :laugh:


    OP, I think you're screwed for an US MD, so consider the DO or caribbean route.
  38. sliceofbread136

    sliceofbread136

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    Upper division sciences I'll agree are probably more challenging material than what most nurses deal with. But I do know they are required to take anatomy and physio classes, which at most schools are upper division science.

    And I thought nurses only took two years of class before they start doing more clinical stuff, so it is pretty analogous to those first two years of premed classes.

    and back on track OP, I think your best bet would be DO. Try to take retake those failed classes at another nursing school.
  39. TriagePreMed

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    LOL So you don't know but you threw your 2 cents in saying that function of nursing is harder and that premed is a joke. And then you say I need a reality check based on a reality that you don't even know if it even exists.

    And no, I just don't believe that there's anything more challenging academically in an undergraduate nursing degree than in premed. Again, this "basic chemistry and physics" is higher than anything required by their programs. Now if we're going to discuss labor intensive, sure. It's definitely easier to sit down, read books, and do problems than it is to go to clinical duty and such; but then we fall into being a mechanic or an EMT is harder than premed. Hell, under those standards, janitorial work might be harder.
  40. Life Eternal

    Life Eternal

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    I was gonna say the same thing.
  41. TriagePreMed

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    I have taken anatomy, and it's not more challenging than "basic chemistry and physics," as you say it. And yes, I did ace my anatomy, which I took over the summer I must add. I took it with other premeds that ran laps around the nursing students in the class.
  42. sliceofbread136

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    Once again you don't understand.... is your head really so thick and is your premed superiority complex really so big that you can't accept that nursing can have classes as challenging as premed? I'm aware they dont take physics and chem, but this just in, there are hard classes out there that don't require those concepts. And then you go on with your flawed analogy... likening clinical expertise and knowledge to a janitor? Lol wut?

    I have a friend who graduated with a 4.0 in biomedical engineering, taking all those premed classes that you struggled so valiently with. She changed her career path and went to nursing, and found it just as challenging.... but wait this isn't possible, the classes can't be challenging, they are for lowly nurses! :rolleyes:
  43. sliceofbread136

    sliceofbread136

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    Uhh great anecdotal evidence? And stop trying to frame my argument like I'm trying to subliminally brag. YOU brought up our grades, not me.

    I'm just so tired of premeds with superiority complexs. The materials you are learning right now is not inherently more challenging than the material anyone else in college is learning. You are not better or take your education more seriously because you are premed. Learn to appreciate the challenges that other people go through. Crap like hating on nurses seriously makes me mad.
    Last edited: 04.15.12
  44. FrkyBgStok

    FrkyBgStok DMU c/o 2016

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    [​IMG]

    OP- what is your gpa including all the credits you have ever taken?
  45. Catalystik

    Catalystik Providing Herd Protection SDN Advisor

    Joined:
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    She thinks she has a 2.7 from 150 credit hours due to dual enrollment in HS.

    @ilovebiomilktea: have you calculated this yourself to confirm? Here is a tool you might use:
    AMCAS GPA calculator: a modifiable version/also calc BCPM:
    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=590424
    Last edited: 04.15.12
  46. sliceofbread136

    sliceofbread136

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    Once again, sigh. Some people find nursing more challenging than other things (like biomedical engineering). You can't make a blanket statement that what you do is harder than what someone else does, even if it you found it harder. And you definitely can't make this blanket statement if you've had ZERO exposure to the other field.

    You can make all the silly accusations and flawed analogies you want (it's really all you've been doing), and you can continue thinking your introductory algebra based chemistry is harder than any class a nurse will ever take. In other words, continue on in your ignorance.
  47. TriagePreMed

    TriagePreMed Removed

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    My comment would be as ignorant as yours as you have "ZERO exposure" too.

    But okay, now we fall into your philosophical argument where how hard everything is, is subjective. Sure, brain surgery might be a breeze for me, but maybe flipping burgers at McDonald's is harder. Brain Surgeon = Teenager at McD's. Love your logic. No exposurez! subchecktive! LOLZ
  48. HoltMD

    HoltMD

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    This thread just gave me a headache.

    [​IMG]
  49. NWS

    NWS

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    Evaluate what went wrong in the nursing program and assess your ability to overcome those deficiencies before you waste a lot of money and time pursuing a much tougher profession.

    Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
  50. sliceofbread136

    sliceofbread136

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    The difference is that I am not making broad generalized statements about nursing (it's impossible for a nursing class to be harder than a premed class?), I am only saying that it has conceptual information included in it that could very well be harder than premed classes. This is very believable because premed classes are generally introductory material, with generally pretty easy concepts and simple math. Your stance is much more extreme, and needs much more support for it than what you've provided. Once again, what don't you understand?

    And once again, flawed analogies. Premed is very similar to the first two years of nursing and pre-nursing. Working at mcdonalds is not similar to brain surgery.

    And please continue with personal attacks. I have alot more material to work with on that front, but I'm going to be the bigger man.

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