Failing Out

[Cormac4]

Make sure you ask what the attrition rate is and when attrition occurs. VMRCVM failed out 7 students in the third year alone this year.

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[pinkpuppy9]

Attrition*

 

[rockatiel]

Attrition*

 

[battie]

Make sure to also keep in mind that the average attrition rate for one class has no bearing on you as a student and that every vet school has resources to help you succeed no matter what you're struggling with. While 7 students may have failed third year this year, it's possible that 0 failed out last year, dropping the average to 3.5. If you the resources available to you through your school, you'll be pretty set.

Edit: http://aavmc.org/data/files/data/2015 aavmc public data.pdf

For 2014-2015, national attrition rate was 0.87%.

 

[Cormac4]

Make sure to also keep in mind that the average attrition rate for one class has no bearing on you as a student and that every vet school has resources to help you succeed no matter what you're struggling with. While 7 students may have failed third year this year, it's possible that 0 failed out last year, dropping the average to 3.5. If you the resources available to you through your school, you'll be pretty set.

Edit: http://aavmc.org/data/files/data/2015 aavmc public data.pdf

For 2014-2015, national attrition rate was 0.87%.

Our attrition rate is much higher than that. But does that attrition rate include people that they let back, that would falsely lower the number. it's not a class problem its an attitude problem with the faculty. Obviously there should always be some attrition but we have enough debt and a high enough suicide rate without failing people because someone wrote a bad a test.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Our attrition rate is much higher than that. But does that attrition rate include people that they let back, that would falsely lower the number. it's not a class problem its an attitude problem with the faculty. Obviously there should always be some attrition but we have enough debt and a high enough suicide rate without failing people because someone wrote a bad a test.

Why are making a sketchy thread about this, though? Every school fails students out. The class of 2018 at Illinois lost about 6 people the first year I've been told, Although 2 were allowed to come back the next year.

Edit: Actually, I looked up the 'failing out' requirements for VMRCVM. I'd say they aren't any more strict than another school. You guys actually have a more forgiving system than some I've seen. If one "poorly written" test did 7 people in, chances are they did poorly enough over the three years that this test did them in, unfortunately.

 

[battie]

Our attrition rate is much higher than that. But does that attrition rate include people that they let back, that would falsely lower the number. it's not a class problem its an attitude problem with the faculty. Obviously there should always be some attrition but we have enough debt and a high enough suicide rate without failing people because someone wrote a bad a test.

Do you know the attrition rate for your entire school over the course of at least 5-10 years? One class does not define the attrition rate, especially when the class sizes are as large as 120. The attrition rate does not include those that are allowed back into the school as then that person has not actually dropped out.

The end result of vet school is a massive test. If students cannot handle the school tests, how should schools expect them to handle the NAVLE?

There's just a lot more to it than simply the faculty.

 

[dyachei]

Our attrition rate is much higher than that. But does that attrition rate include people that they let back, that would falsely lower the number. it's not a class problem its an attitude problem with the faculty. Obviously there should always be some attrition but we have enough debt and a high enough suicide rate without failing people because someone wrote a bad a test.

Or perhaps students should be aware that you one bad test may be enough of an issue to stay on top of that subject. At least at UTK, they gave us every opportunity to retake years/semesters, etc if you did poorly. And we knew which classes were considered more challenging than others. While it's stressful to not do well and perhaps increase your time in vet school, every single vet school has classes like these. We lost 4 in our first year alone (out of 70) then lost 2 for health reasons after that.

So while I understand how upsetting it may be, it's certainly not only the "attitude" of instructors at fault

 

[DVMDream]

The NAVLE is a "badly written" test. Yet the vast majority of people pass it. I have doubts that one "badly written" exam is the only thing that lead to 7, third years failing. Sounds like maybe people weren't prepared and are trying to shift blame. Has anyone tried talking with the school about the situation? Anyone tried to figure out if they can retake the exam, class, etc?

Perhaps a professional, non-accusatory discussion with the school faculty would help?

 

[CalliopeDVM]

VMRCVM failed out 7 students in the third year alone this year.

Did the school really "fail out" 7 students, or in reality did 7 students fail to meet reasonable requirements? Why did they fail?.......I doubt it was because of A (single) bad test score.

The more important question is whether the school admitted students with the expectation they would probably fail -- and I'm guessing not.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Our attrition rate is much higher than that. But does that attrition rate include people that they let back, that would falsely lower the number. it's not a class problem its an attitude problem with the faculty. Obviously there should always be some attrition but we have enough debt and a high enough suicide rate without failing people because someone wrote a bad a test.

What exactly is this "attitude of the faculty" you speak of? Given that you are a student, I assume your interactions with the faculty are minimal outside of lecture or making you take tests, so you can't really speak with any authority about how they feel about students despite how you may interpret their actions in your own biased light.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but when I was a student at VMCVM there was immense empathy for students, and there still is. I almost failed out in my third year due to personal issues affecting my grades, and I received nothing but support from the faculty and administration that allowed (and helped me) me to bounce back. Third year is very hard, no buts about it. But it sounds like to a separating the misery from the blame.

"Someone wrote a bad test" - you are showing your ignorance and bitterness here, and plainly at that.

Are you suggesting we lower the bar then? How much? How far? How long before we start graduating people that are actually incompetent?

There has to be a cutoff somewhere, like it or not. It's part of life. If you don't make the cutoffs at your job, you get fired.

 

[LetItSnow]

I'm with the OP. We shouldn't even HAVE tests. It is so unfair to judge students. This school should be sued for discriminating between students who know the material and students who don't. You paid your tuition - that should be good enough to get a diploma.

 

[flameshock]

I know this doesn't help you as a current student, but at the accepted students day they told the incoming class that they were looking at establishing exam remediation for classes...which would potentially lessen this as a concern.

 

[Frozenshades]

Pretty sure my class has lost more than 15 people since first year. I think five at most weren't for academic reasons. Most of them are continuing with future class years. It sucks, but it happens; schools do make changes to try to reduce it, but they can't (shouldn't) just force people through...

 

[Cormac4]

What exactly is this "attitude of the faculty" you speak of? Given that you are a student, I assume your interactions with the faculty are minimal outside of lecture or making you take tests, so you can't really speak with any authority about how they feel about students despite how you may interpret their actions in your own biased light.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but when I was a student at VMCVM there was immense empathy for students, and there still is. I almost failed out in my third year due to personal issues affecting my grades, and I received nothing but support from the faculty and administration that allowed (and helped me) me to bounce back. Third year is very hard, no buts about it. But it sounds like to a separating the misery from the blame.

"Someone wrote a bad test" - you are showing your ignorance and bitterness here, and plainly at that.

Are you suggesting we lower the bar then? How much? How far? How long before we start graduating people that are actually incompetent?

There has to be a cutoff somewhere, like it or not. It's part of life. If you don't make the cutoffs at your job, you get fired.

These aren't students failing out first or second year because they lack the aptitude. Some are d-ing out which is a legitimate reason to have to repeat as you have demonstrated a lack of mastery of the material. A random bad grade in a class in the sixth semester where 1SD from the mean is a D on both exams and the students weren't on academic concern is a pretty thin line to say that the student lacks the aptitude to be a veterinarian and should have to repeat.

90% of the faculty can be amazing and I have met some very compassionate individuals and skilled clinicians. And few would argue that we are not getting a good education. The student vs faculty feeling is unnecessary and has gotten worse since they are implementing the new curriculum next year. A lot of bitterness about having to change that spills over into the classroom. I've been at schools that were concerned with mentoring students, it creates a great environment.

And I didn't fail nor did any friends so I'm not arguing for myself. But I am bitter how they have treated honest students while those who know how to game the system get by (and in that regard I am in a position to have some knowledge).

 

[dyachei]

These aren't students failing out first or second year because they lack the aptitude. Some are d-ing out which is a legitimate reason to have to repeat as you have demonstrated a lack of mastery of the material. A random bad grade in a class in the sixth semester where 1SD from the mean is a D on both exams and the students weren't on academic concern is a pretty thin line to say that the student lacks the aptitude to be a veterinarian and should have to repeat.

90% of the faculty can be amazing and I have met some very compassionate individuals and skilled clinicians. And few would argue that we are not getting a good education. The student vs faculty feeling is unnecessary and has gotten worse since they are implementing the new curriculum next year. A lot of bitterness about having to change that spills over into the classroom. I've been at schools that were concerned with mentoring students, it creates a great environment.

And I didn't fail nor did any friends so I'm not arguing for myself. But I am bitter how they have treated honest students while those who know how to game the system get by (and in that regard I am in a position to have some knowledge).

There's no guarantee that by making it to 3rd year that you get to graduate.

 

[Cormac4]

Pretty sure my class has lost more than 15 people since first year. I think five at most weren't for academic reasons. Most of them are continuing with future class years. It sucks, but it happens; schools do make changes to try to reduce it, but they can't (shouldn't) just force people through...

Thanks for the info! I think the national attrition rate shows people that don't come back so I wanted to get a feel for what its like at other institutions.

 

[Cormac4]

There's no guarantee that by making it to 3rd year that you get to graduate.

I agree. But it should be an uncommon occurrence during the third year. These are bad culls. we should have low attrition during the third year and high attrition during the first year. I would rather see them fail people a little higher during 4th year as a different skill set is being evaluated.

 

[dyachei]

I agree. But it should be an uncommon occurrence during the third year. These are bad culls. we should have low attrition during the third year and high attrition during the first year. I would rather see them fail people a little higher during 4th year as a different skill set is being evaluated.

we had our radiology course during 3rd year and it was a common cause of failing out. So I'm not sure I agree.

 

[Cormac4]

I'm with the OP. We shouldn't even HAVE tests. It is so unfair to judge students. This school should be sued for discriminating between students who know the material and students who don't. You paid your tuition - that should be good enough to get a diploma.

Not a very helpful comment. I have no problem with students failing. Some people lack the aptitude. But they shouldn't fail for shoddy testing and the attrition rate should start high and taper to being low not the other way around. Debt is to big of an issue to be soft on people.

 

[DVMDream]

Not a very helpful comment. I have no problem with students failing. Some people lack the aptitude. But they shouldn't fail for shoddy testing and the attrition rate should start high and taper to being low not the other way around. Debt is to big of an issue to be soft on people.

And you're qualified to determine what "shoddy" testing is?

 

[Frozenshades]

I agree. But it should be an uncommon occurrence during the third year. These are bad culls. we should have low attrition during the third year and high attrition during the first year. I would rather see them fail people a little higher during 4th year as a different skill set is being evaluated.

They reevaluated a few things when a couple years ago one class third year failed 12 students, which would've been like 17 without an additional curve. I think everyone agreed that was a bit excessive. Fourth year failing out seems pretty rare here, not uncommon for some to need to repeat one rotation though. Second year is probably usually the most.

 

[Cormac4]

Why are making a sketchy thread about this, though? Every school fails students out. The class of 2018 at Illinois lost about 6 people the first year I've been told, Although 2 were allowed to come back the next year.

Edit: Actually, I looked up the 'failing out' requirements for VMRCVM. I'd say they aren't any more strict than another school. You guys actually have a more forgiving system than some I've seen. If one "poorly written" test did 7 people in, chances are they did poorly enough over the three years that this test did them in, unfortunately.

I'd say looking at requirements is a hard way to evaluate between schools because you don't know what is actually happening on the ground. The purpose of this post was just to get pre-vet students to ask how it works at the institutions they are looking at. I have another post in the vet forum because I was interested what the attrition rate is at other schools. It may well be that we are the norm. Was I blasting the school a bit, yes. But I also really want to know what the experience is for students at other schools and for incoming students to be aware of the policies of the school they are going into.

 

[Cormac4]

we had our radiology course during 3rd year and it was a common cause of failing out. So I'm not sure I agree.

And our radiology course was second year and a comparatively easy course compared to others we had on the docket. I don't have the perfect answer but I don't think we should have a high attrition rate in the third year (I'm not arguing for zero). I would rather see a remediation option during the third year that could be done during the breaks and more repeating or failing out in first two years.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

These aren't students failing out first or second year because they lack the aptitude. Some are d-ing out which is a legitimate reason to have to repeat as you have demonstrated a lack of mastery of the material. A random bad grade in a class in the sixth semester where 1SD from the mean is a D on both exams and the students weren't on academic concern is a pretty thin line to say that the student lacks the aptitude to be a veterinarian and should have to repeat.

90% of the faculty can be amazing and I have met some very compassionate individuals and skilled clinicians. And few would argue that we are not getting a good education. The student vs faculty feeling is unnecessary and has gotten worse since they are implementing the new curriculum next year. A lot of bitterness about having to change that spills over into the classroom. I've been at schools that were concerned with mentoring students, it creates a great environment.

And I didn't fail nor did any friends so I'm not arguing for myself. But I am bitter how they have treated honest students while those who know how to game the system get by (and in that regard I am in a position to have some knowledge).

If this truly is as big of an issue as you say, why didn't a representative from the third year class come to the town hall meeting we had a while back to discuss all sorts of concerns between faculty, the admin, vet students, grad students as well as explanations of the new curriculum? The few vet students that bothered to attend were almost completely silent in what was supposed to be a very open discussion floor; that would have been the perfect place to bring up the issue of attrition as well as any sort of relationship issue between vet students and faculty.

There are ample opportunities to bring forth concerns about faculty-student relationships, but they can't do anything about it if the only response a class has to incoming changes or current issues is grumbling about to themselves or on the internet.

And what is "gaming the system" exactly? Do you mean people cheating? In which case, why have they not been reported?

 

[dyachei]

And our radiology course was second year and a comparatively easy course compared to others we had on the docket. I don't have the perfect answer but I don't think we should have a high attrition rate in the third year (I'm not arguing for zero). I would rather see a remediation option during the third year that could be done during the breaks and more repeating or failing out in first two years.

I don't think you should be "safe" from failing out any year. You need to keep your knowledge level high. We had previous 3rd years join our class for 3rd year. No one cared.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I don't think you should be "safe" from failing out any year. You need to keep your knowledge level high. We had previous 3rd years join our class for 3rd year. No one cared.

This. In the real world, it doesn't matter when you start failing. If you've been at a job one year, two years, three....if you fail to do your job, you risk being fired. Vet school already coddles students immensely and I think it doesn't prepare them for actual work environments where there *aren't* things like remediation. You don't get infinite chances in life, sometimes you don't even get a second one. Does that mean faculty have to be jerks? Of course not. And the vast, vast majority are not, like you said - they wouldn't have even stayed in academia if they didn't want to teach and mentor. Actually, most of the changes to the curriculum are supposed to alleviate issues like this with grades, so I'm not quite sure why students would have an issue with it, unless it is simply the fact that nobody likes change.

 

[FeenyFee]

Kind of off topic but, how is the difficulty level of questions on vet school exams compared to undergrad exams? I know the amount of material is FAR greater in vet school but are questions super complex or "you know it or you don't" questions? Is there a curve? Do professors look at questions and review how many students get a certain question wrong and throw it out?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Kind of off topic but, how is the difficulty level of questions on vet school exams compared to undergrad exams? I know the amount of material is FAR greater in vet school but are questions super complex or "you know it or you don't" questions? Is there a curve? Do professors look at questions and review how many students get a certain question wrong and throw it out?

Yes and no. It depends on the course, the instructor, everything. No way to really make a blanket statement.

 

[wheelin2vetmed]

Attrition*

Atrición*

 

[LetItSnow]

not quite sure why students would have an issue with it, unless it is simply the fact that nobody likes change.

Every class ever bitches.

 

[LetItSnow]

Not a very helpful comment. I have no problem with students failing. Some people lack the aptitude. But they shouldn't fail for shoddy testing and the attrition rate should start high and taper to being low not the other way around. Debt is to big of an issue to be soft on people.

Having to manage patients' lives is too big of an issue to be soft on students. You're dangerously close to arguing that because students have lots of debt they shouldn't be failed out.

Look. Students always gripe about tests. Unless you have some sort of substantive, specific, documentable gripe ... Then you're just grousing. Which is fine. But don't put poor student performance on the backs of your teachers.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Every class ever bitches.

True. Our class was actually called the "Apathetic Class" because for the most part we didn't bitch that much. The class before us what a whole 'nother matter though. They were the Whiny Class. Class below us was the Party Class, one below them was the Gunner Class.

 

[Frozenshades]

Having to manage patients' lives is too big of an issue to be soft on students. You're dangerously close to arguing that because students have lots of debt they shouldn't be failed out.

Look. Students always gripe about tests. Unless you have some sort of substantive, specific, documentable gripe ... Then you're just grousing. Which is fine. But don't put poor student performance on the backs of your teachers.

Competency can't be bought.

Kind of off topic but, how is the difficulty level of questions on vet school exams compared to undergrad exams? I know the amount of material is FAR greater in vet school but are questions super complex or "you know it or you don't" questions? Is there a curve? Do professors look at questions and review how many students get a certain question wrong and throw it out?

Really does vary. Some profs write straight forward and/or easy questions, others are very difficult. Some toss questions, others just say the 15% who got that right just knew something the rest of you didn't. You can have 50 minute all multiple choice exams, or a three hour entirely written out test. And everything in between.

 

[BirdsinMyHouse]

Everyone complains about tests, and sometimes people have to repeat semesters/years. Doesn't mean it's an attitude problem with faculty... in my experience, if I've done poorly on an exam, it's because I didn't prepare enough or the right way. Sometimes you just have a bad day. Blaming it on the faculty at an institution isn't professional, and it's not advisable... these people could be in charge of your recommendations, etc. Don't burn bridges.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Kind of off topic but, how is the difficulty level of questions on vet school exams compared to undergrad exams? I know the amount of material is FAR greater in vet school but are questions super complex or "you know it or you don't" questions? Is there a curve? Do professors look at questions and review how many students get a certain question wrong and throw it out?

We have had no curves. We do occasionally get a question thrown out or turned into a 'bonus question' if you have a legit reason as to why it wasn't a good question (poorly written or multiple answers with proof), but sometimes it also happens if a student bitches enough, which I don't like. Just on our last quiz, someone threw a fit about a simple multiplication/addition question because we weren't given scratch paper (we have a calculator in our exam software). The question ended up being a point for everyone.

True. Our class was actually called the "Apathetic Class" because for the most part we didn't bitch that much. The class before us what a whole 'nother matter though. They were the Whiny Class. Class below us was the Party Class, one below them was the Gunner Class.

The class above us is also a whiny group. Supposedly it led to the early retirement of a teacher. I think my class is a mix of gunner and whiny. The sucky part is that sometimes it only takes a few people to give your class a bad label.

 

[lianali]

Just on our last quiz, someone threw a fit about a simple multiplication/addition question because we weren't given scratch paper (we have a calculator in our exam software). The question ended up being a point for everyone.
.

What... I can't even... Does not compute. Calculator>> scratch paper, in my world.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

We have had no curves. We do occasionally get a question thrown out or turned into a 'bonus question' if you have a legit reason as to why it wasn't a good question (poorly written or multiple answers with proof), but sometimes it also happens if a student bitches enough, which I don't like. Just on our last quiz, someone threw a fit about a simple multiplication/addition question because we weren't given scratch paper (we have a calculator in our exam software). The question ended up being a point for everyone.

The class above us is also a whiny group. Supposedly it led to the early retirement of a teacher. I think my class is a mix of gunner and whiny. The sucky part is that sometimes it only takes a few people to give your class a bad label.

That's awful. Yeah, that upper class at my school also contributed to one prof no longer teaching a class because they were so bitchy to him. And he was one of the nicest people I have ever known, very sweet (and sensitive, which is why I think he just didn't want to deal with it anymore). He did a very self-driven, PBL-type of class and people moaned and groaned that they weren't being spoon-fed enough.

That is definitely one of the things that gives me pause about going for prof. The abuse that they take sometimes, often unwarranted, from entitled students can be really awful.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

What... I can't even... Does not compute. Calculator>> scratch paper, in my world.

People were complaining that they couldn't remember the total calories each for fat, protein, and carbs to come up with the total caloric amount (as fed) of the food described in the question. So they couldn't remember three numbers to add up for the final answer. I thought it was really petty and childish and I was a little disappointed to hear that the instructor caved like he did.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

People were complaining that they couldn't remember the total calories each for fat, protein, and carbs to come up with the total caloric amount (as fed) of the food described in the question. So they couldn't remember three numbers to add up for the final answer. I thought it was really petty and childish and I was a little disappointed to hear that the instructor caved like he did.

Lol. I remember one girl bitching because an epidemiology professor, who was trying to explain populations averages versus median, asked her to add up 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, and then asked her what the average was. She huffed and puffed and said she needed a calculator to do it.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

That's awful. Yeah, that upper class at my school also contributed to one prof no longer teaching a class because they were so bitchy to him. And he was one of the nicest people I have ever known, very sweet (and sensitive, which is why I think he just didn't want to deal with it anymore). He did a very self-driven, PBL-type of class and people moaned and groaned that they weren't being spoon-fed enough.

That is definitely one of the things that gives me pause about going for prof. The abuse that they take sometimes, often unwarranted, from entitled students can be really awful.

Agreed. Just yesterday, half of my class had a meltdown during renal phys because the prof added on another lecture to our quiz material at the last minute (the quiz was today, and he added the material yesterday). People were being extremely disrespectful, shouting at times. Someone plainly said they want to get him fired. This prof comes from the med school, and I was honestly embarrassed by my class. They made the whole class and school look bad. The prof took it well, even though I do think he can be a bit condescending at times. He also has major typos in his lecture which is something I can't stand, but you don't need to brag about how you're going to try and get him fired.

 

[Frozenshades]

Agreed. Just yesterday, half of my class had a meltdown during renal phys because the prof added on another lecture to our quiz material at the last minute (the quiz was today, and he added the material yesterday). People were being extremely disrespectful, shouting at times. Someone plainly said they want to get him fired. This prof comes from the med school, and I was honestly embarrassed by my class. They made the whole class and school look bad. The prof took it well, even though I do think he can be a bit condescending at times. He also has major typos in his lecture which is something I can't stand, but you don't need to brag about how you're going to try and get him fired.

It appalls me when people do things like that. You're free to your opinion, but geez, at least show some respect for the position and some level of professional discretion.

 

[Trilt]

Apparently it pretty much alternates by year at my school. My class is regarded as super smart but chill. (I am only one of those things). The class below us... oh man. They got a reputation for being whiny and extremely high strung from first semester and it has maintained itself for the rest of the years. Everyone is just kind of bracing themselves for when they hit the teaching hospital proper.

 

[rockatiel]

That's kind of crazy that people still pester their instructuctors like that in professional school. Granted, I'm not surprised because I see the kind of whiny stuff happen all the time at my undergrad. And when the profs let kids have their way... Yeah the habit doesn't get broken. And it continues In biochem one of my classmates would fuss with the teacher over every point. And take up class asking dumb questions so no one else could learn. "I just have to make sure ***I*** get the material! I can't get a B in this class and ruin my summa cum laude!" It got old sooooo fast. I see how vet school makes people bitter, if there's really classes full of people like that.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

That's kind of crazy that people still pester their instructuctors like that in professional school. Granted, I'm not surprised because I see the kind of whiny stuff happen all the time at my undergrad. And when the profs let kids have their way... Yeah the habit doesn't get broken. And it continues In biochem one of my classmates would fuss with the teacher over every point. And take up class asking dumb questions so no one else could learn. "I just have to make sure ***I*** get the material! I can't get a B in this class and ruin my summa cum laude!" It got old sooooo fast. I see how vet school makes people bitter, if there's really classes full of people like that.

Sometimes I feel like people forget their in a professional school and contribute to the general image and reputation of the school, especially in the local community. Some of the bar crawl/Friday night stories I hear the next week make me cringe. I'm all for having fun, but please don't be vomiting on yourself when you're on a bar crawl of clearly veterinary students. Our Vet Prom is a notorious event in the community, as we've been banned from several locations because people trash the place or get so drunk that they get sick everywhere. This past event was the first event in several years where the venue didn't tell us we weren't welcome back. Just really disappointing to the portion of students who manage to keep it together while still having fun.

 

[wheelin2vetmed]

He also has major typos in his lecture which is something I can't stand...

Sometimes I feel like people forget their in a professional school and contribute to the general image and reputation of the school, especially in the local community.

They're*

I do realize I've added absolutely nothing to this thread, but pp, you walked right into that one. Don't forget post #2 where you fixed attrition, which makes this comment that much sweeter

 

[LetItSnow]

One thing nobody really mentioned to the OP is that writing good exam questions is actually pretty damn hard. At least, that's been my experience. I've had to write a few tests over the years, and it is amazing how hard it can be to write a large number of good questions with bulletproof answers. People getting all pissy over one or two questions on an exam? Ugh. I'd just start telling people "Fine. No written exams. We'll do oral exams. Schedule will be posted next week. Expect to be able to explain in detail any concept that falls under the syllabus whether it was covered in lecture or not. See ya wouldn't want to be ya."

Or I'd just make it all essay. And then hand out random grades based on my impression of the student without bothering to read the exams. Bob asked great questions and seems to 'get it' - A on his exam. Biff asked pointless questions and clearly doesn't get it - D. Gina is a brat who slept through every class, but I hear she does ok on clinics - C.

 

[DVMDream]

One thing nobody really mentioned to the OP is that writing good exam questions is actually pretty damn hard. At least, that's been my experience. I've had to write a few tests over the years, and it is amazing how hard it can be to write a large number of good questions with bulletproof answers. People getting all pissy over one or two questions on an exam? Ugh. I'd just start telling people "Fine. No written exams. We'll do oral exams. Schedule will be posted next week. Expect to be able to explain in detail any concept that falls under the syllabus whether it was covered in lecture or not. See ya wouldn't want to be ya."

Or I'd just make it all essay. And then hand out random grades based on my impression of the student without bothering to read the exams. Bob asked great questions and seems to 'get it' - A on his exam. Biff asked pointless questions and clearly doesn't get it - D. Gina is a brat who slept through every class, but I hear she does ok on clinics - C.

Ugh, writing exam questions. I've done it a few times. Even read up research on writing good exam questions. Exam question writing has actually been researched and studied. Was helping some vet school professors with teaching projects. A good multiple choice question is very difficult to write and can take a good 10+ minutes to do, multiplied by 60+ questions, it is a pain in the ass.

 

[StartingoverVet]

People are too quick to defend profs/vet school IMO.
The testing is very inconsistent in my limited experience.

There was one anesthesia class (year before mine) where 13 people failed the class, and the entire class of students universally blamed unfair questions and grading. One of those students had previously failed a class so was automatically kicked out of school (that was the policy). Sure they failed twice, but >10% of people failing a class has to fall on the teachers not the students.

These people are being paid to teach in addition to their research and many of them are lousy educators. Clinicians are usually pretty wonderful in a clinical environment, and very caring, but in a classroom a lot of them are god awful.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Thanks for the info! I think the national attrition rate shows people that don't come back so I wanted to get a feel for what its like at other institutions.

There's a big difference between the number of people who "fail out" and the number that leave for all reasons, including non-academic ones. The fact that one class in one school lost a bunch of people doesn't mean that they failed their academics.....it could have been a fluke of consequences that had a bunch of people leaving for personal reasons unrelated to one another. Those numbers should be of no consequence to potential students, because personal reasons are, well, personal and don't impact other (or future) students. Repeated attrition numbers, or an average attrition rate should be all that matters, and even that should be taken with a grain of salt (since we can't tell from the numbers WHY someone left school). I think we lost 4 or 5 people in our class over 4 years, but only one of them was for academic reasons. On the other hand, we gained 3 people from previous classes that had dropped out a year earlier and joined us instead (only one was for academic failure; the others were for different personal reasons)

And our radiology course was second year and a comparatively easy course compared to others we had on the docket. I don't have the perfect answer but I don't think we should have a high attrition rate in the third year (I'm not arguing for zero). I would rather see a remediation option during the third year that could be done during the breaks and more repeating or failing out in first two years.

Do you know that there wasn't a remediation option or that they weren't offered opportunities to re-do a module/course/exam etc. Were they not offered an opportunity to remedy the problem area, or did they just not want to? My class had over a dozen people fail a course, and they were all offered a summer to re-do it; they didn't want to give up the summer income, but they were glad for the opportunity to right their wrongs.

I also don't see why there should be "more" failing in the first two years......there shouldn't be any effort to fail more in any year; either students can and will do what's needed, or they won't, in all years. The fact that third year is more difficult and takes more time and energy than first or second year shouldn't be a surprise. They shouldn't get easier to pass as things go along - it should be more challenging as students get closer to dealing with patients' health.