FAP: Read before signing HPSP

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Besides aging into promotions, how is the system set up to reward competence with advancement? Another way, how short of time does it take to go from an O-4 to an O-5, as an example? What are the steps needed to make that happen (or accelerate the process)?
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phd2b said:
Besides aging into promotions, how is the system set up to reward competence with advancement? Another way, how short of time does it take to go from an O-4 to an O-5, as an example? What are the steps needed to make that happen (or accelerate the process)?
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For doctors, going from O-4 to O-5 requires about 6 years. If you do tours in Iraq, take up early leadership responsibilities, or in a command that really supports you, then you may receive "must promote" at 4-5 years after receiving the O-4 rank. O-4 to O-5 is fairly easy. O-5 to O-6 is much harder. To get to O-6, I've heard from senior officers that you must become less of a doctor and more of a military leader/administrator. It's tough wearing both hats.
 
phd2b said:
Besides aging into promotions, how is the system set up to reward competence with advancement? Another way, how short of time does it take to go from an O-4 to an O-5, as an example? What are the steps needed to make that happen (or accelerate the process)?
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Speeding up the process from O-3 to O-4 can be accomplished by entry grade credit. Your PhD may give you an additional 3 years towards O-4. Going from O-4 to O-5 is pretty much a 6 year cycle. There are about 2-3 individuals selected for early promotion, but they are by far the exception. Publishing, being a great clinician will help in the long run, but they won't get you selected early. O-5 to O-6 has gotten easier this year. Selection rates had been in the 50-60% range but now have gone back to 80%. This too is a 6 year cycle.
 
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Good answers to simple questions. Here's another: realistically, what types of destinations could a surgical specialist (ENT) be expected to make during AD? Assume 5 years of duty for 4 years of residency support? How often, for how long, and where?
Thanks in advance,
 
pruritis_ani said:
What are the major differences between the FAP and the joining the Reserves?

I just started considering this as the extra cash would be nice, and I have always had the thought of medicine in the military in the back of my mind. Would love to know what to expect from the reserves in terms of my commitment and my risks of getting screwed (ie sent to Iraq for a long ass time) vs. what they will pay me and what some other bennies may be.

Any help would be great!
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Just as a tip and for other people reading this, if you are thinking
of deployment in terms of "my risks of getting screwed" then you will
really not be doing yourself a favor by joining. You have to realize that
you will be making a sacrifice, you have to want to treat soldiers, serve
your country, and not think that you are "getting screwed".

If you think you are getting screwed as a physician in the military,
i think the infantrymen who are the ones actually laying down their lives
for this country right now might think differently.
 
Re3iRtH said:
Just as a tip and for other people reading this, if you are thinking
of deployment in terms of "my risks of getting screwed" then you will
really not be doing yourself a favor by joining. You have to realize that
you will be making a sacrifice, you have to want to treat soldiers, serve
your country, and not think that you are "getting screwed".

If you think you are getting screwed as a physician in the military,
i think the infantrymen who are the ones actually laying down their lives
for this country right now might think differently.
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1) I completely/100% agree on your thoughts about deployment

2) Absolutely one of our soldiers (and thier families) pay a bigger price/sacrifice than any physician getting "screwed".

3) Having said that, I hope you are not also inferring that what is going on in milmed should cause us to "look the other way" as physicians since "whatever" is going on is not the ultimate sacrifice and does not compare to what those who have died in the line of duty sacrifice.

I feel I can safely speak for many milmed Primary care docs when I say it is not 4pm tee-times, leather lounge couches and more pay that we have been asking for.

But when milmed chooses to staff our clinic below a safe minimum, when there are/have been to pt charts available, unneeded beurocracy, broken referral protocols and much more...AND....when milmed chooses to remove the people with the responsibility for the care (the doctors) from having any authority to correct the above problems.................well, that when you see docs leaving, patient care declining and in my experience, USAFcore values a thing of the past (replaced by your friendly neighborhood money and metricsman).:thumbdown:
 
can someone quickly summarize what 'metrics' are?
 
Re3iRtH said:
can someone quickly summarize what 'metrics' are?
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below is a definition copied from a net site. The problems with USAF metrics are numerous including that USAF metrics are frequently innaccurate and metrics have replaced local control and site visits. Basically they are a method so that somebody thousands of miles away from an issue can justify their business decisions. Interesting that the Vietnam War was very much "run" using metrics. The part missing from the "net definition" below that I feel is most important are the ACCURACY (what good is the metric if the number is wrong and derrived from false info) and BIG PICTURE (what good is a metric if the decisions made/based on it go against the very reason we do medicine to begin with)

At its simplest, a metric is a generic term for nothing more than a standard measure to assess performance in a particular area. For example, a business that has recently invested in providing a customized order status page on their Web site to minimise time customer service operators spend on the phone, may decide to monitor the percentage of delivery status inquiries answered via the Web interface, versus those answered on the phone.


Metrics should be SMART i.e. Specific, Measurable, Actionable, Relevant, and Timely:


“Specific” in that your metrics are targeted to the area you are measuring;
“Measurable” in that you can collect data that is accurate and complete;
“Actionable” in that the metrics are easy to understand, and it is clear when you chart over time which direction is “good” and which direction is “bad”, so you know when to take action. Using the delivery status example, if the metrics were to indicate customers are not using the Web order status page as much as expected, the business can attempt to analyse why this is happening, and then take appropriate action based on this. Continuous monitoring should help create the desired result;
“Relevant” simply means don’t measure things that are not important. A common downfall is to measure everything, which produces many meaningless measures;
“Timely” metrics are those for which you can get the data when you need it.

At the end of the day, metrics should be simple. If they require a lot of explanation and definition, then collecting and translating data into actions becomes more difficult. Easy to understand metrics are also easier to sell, and have a stronger impact on the process and people who use it.


Clearly by collecting this data it is possible to analyse current performance and then set short and long-term objectives, as well as meet competitive or industry benchmarks.
 
Do all military branches have the FAP? I could not find it on the Air Force's Website.

Thanks.
 
walkoffhr said:
Do all military branches have the FAP? I could not find it on the Air Force's Website.

Thanks.
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Yes, but the numbers and specialties are often different. Not sure what the AF numbers look like.
 
walkoffhr said:
Do all military branches have the FAP? I could not find it on the Air Force's Website.

Thanks.
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Information for AF medicine can be found at http://airforcemedicine.afms.mil.

If you're looking for what specialties you could do with FAP, look at the 2008 IFB results. Those list all specialties/fellowships that the AF is in need of for the upcoming fiscal year. For FAP, you would have to look for those specialties/fellowships that are granted Def/RDef, meaning that you would be serving absolutely no time towards your ADSC.

Additionally, if you click here, Medical Link for Deferred/ReDeferred FAP, you can see a document that should answer some of your questions about AF FAP.
 
Tired said:
If I wanted to dodge bullets and cap off Arabs, I wouldn't have gone to college.

I guess I'm missing your point. What exactly was it again?
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I think he was just trying to give you some perspective. You know, life could always be worse type of thing.
 
I don't believe this was mentioned in the OP's post, but let's say that I enter a civilian residency, sign up for FAP, but then decide afterwards that I don't like my specialty and want to switch residencies, which i heard is not an uncommon scenario. Would I even be allowed to switch residencies under FAP and would I be subject to the "stiff penalties" mentioned by the OP?
 
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I read this today on a military medicine web page.

"The DoD has increased pay for HPSP and HAP. This month the stipend for HPSP and FAP was increased from $1305 to $1605. In July 2008, the stipend will be increased to $1907. In 2007 the annual grant for FAP participants remained the same but will be increased from $28,454 to $45,000. The stipend increases amount to 18% per year and the grant increase is 58%!"

My main question is this. Since the FAP benefits are taxable, how much of the 28k or 45k can you expect to really be able to use to pay off your loans?

Also, is the HPSP stipend taxable as well?
 
elderjack21 said:
I read this today on a military medicine web page.

"The DoD has increased pay for HPSP and HAP. This month the stipend for HPSP and FAP was increased from $1305 to $1605. In July 2008, the stipend will be increased to $1907. In 2007 the annual grant for FAP participants remained the same but will be increased from $28,454 to $45,000. The stipend increases amount to 18% per year and the grant increase is 58%!"

My main question is this. Since the FAP benefits are taxable, how much of the 28k or 45k can you expect to really be able to use to pay off your loans?

Also, is the HPSP stipend taxable as well?
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Both HPSP and FAP stipends and grant are taxable.

One good thing is that you don't have to pay social security taxes. The amount of federal and state taxes you pay depend on your state of residence and number of exemptions.

This new FAP increase will allow you to make over $100,000 per year as a resident! This is amazing.

Assuming your residency pays you $40,000/year, your total taxable income will be $107,884/year.

Use this calculator to determine your federal tax: http://www.irs.gov/individuals/page/0,,id=14806,00.html

Your federal taxes (single with standard deductions):
$23,366

State taxes:
~$8000

FICA/SS on the $40,000:
~$3000

After tax income: ~$73,518/year (~32% goes to taxes)

You should consider purchasing a home to reduce your tax burden and possibly make some money from your home after leaving residency.

Assuming you live only on your resident salary (after taxes): ~$27,258

You should have $73,518 - $27,258 = $46,260/year to pay off student debt.

Thus, you'll have the following to pay off debt for a:

4-year internship/residency program: $185,040
5-year internship/residency program: $231,300
6-year internship/residency program: $277,560

Hope this helps. Keep in mind that the above is a fairly high tax rate based on standard deductions and single person.
 
Wow, thanks for all of the detailed information. I was concerned that perhaps a lump sum payment like that would be taxed at a higher rate or something like the military does with some other types of lump-sum payments like money for moving, re-enlisting, etc.

That makes it seem like a very attractive route to take and competitive with HPSP.

Is FAP used to make up shortfalls in the recruitment of doctors in specific fields?

I know that the Army only recruited something like 69% if its required docs last year.
 
FAP is used to recruit doctors in areas with shortages in man power. FAP, in my opinion, is better than HPSP as you'll get to pick your civilian program AND specialty. After you match, then you sign up with the FAP. Also, if you don't have a lot of debt, $100K+ per year during residency is a ton of money!
 
elderjack21 said:
I read this today on a military medicine web page.

"The DoD has increased pay for HPSP and HAP. This month the stipend for HPSP and FAP was increased from $1305 to $1605. In July 2008, the stipend will be increased to $1907. In 2007 the annual grant for FAP participants remained the same but will be increased from $28,454 to $45,000. The stipend increases amount to 18% per year and the grant increase is 58%!"

My main question is this. Since the FAP benefits are taxable, how much of the 28k or 45k can you expect to really be able to use to pay off your loans?

Also, is the HPSP stipend taxable as well?
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are you sure your information is correct?? they are actually increasing the stipend from roughly 28k to 45k?? that doesn't sound right to me...45K total (stipend + grant) per year...but increasing the annual grant by 58%??
 
GMO2003 said:
are you sure your information is correct?? they are actually increasing the stipend from roughly 28k to 45k?? that doesn't sound right to me...45K total (stipend + grant) per year...but increasing the annual grant by 58%??
Click to expand...

Lump sum grant will be $45K
Stipend is the same as for HPSP which will be $1907

Annual income about $70K
 
Does anyone know about how many FAP scholarships (if you can call them that) are offered each year? Just a general number as I am sure it varies year to year. I have yet to run into a mil-doc who took FAP, does anyone know of people who took it?
 
elderjack21 said:
Does anyone know about how many FAP scholarships (if you can call them that) are offered each year? Just a general number as I am sure it varies year to year. I have yet to run into a mil-doc who took FAP, does anyone know of people who took it?
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20 this year for Navy. It is a small portion of the total docs on AD. They also tend to get out with greater regularity.
 
NavyFP said:
20 this year for Navy. It is a small portion of the total docs on AD. They also tend to get out with greater regularity.
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I read in a congressional report from 95 floating around on the internet that FAP is by far the cheapest way to put docs in, partly because they don't stay in so there is no obligation to pay benefits for life. USUHS on the other hand costs a fortune for the government.

I was pretty set on not signing up for HPSP...but now that I am getting financial aid packages and looking at the debt down the road (with interest about 160k at my cheapest school 225k at my most expensive) and it really is staggering, especially since I have a family.

FAP looks like a nice option, although it doesn't seem so widely used. btw I appreciate your posts on military medicine, they are informative and factual which is great.
 
There is one big benefit to taking HPSP over FAP. In the Army FAP is not a guarantee. Not all specialties are offered FAP PGY1 and although all can take it PGY-2 and higher. It is still on a case by case basis who the Army decides to offer FAP, this is based on the needs of the Army. If you are in a critical specialty like surgery or ortho then you will probably get it, your chances are almost non-existent if you are in something like Nuclear Medicine. So the one thing that HPSp does have over FAP is that more people are selected for HPSP while with FAP your specialty could deny you that opportunity. BTW the stats and amounts you have listed for HPSP and FAP are old.

Sincerely,
Bliss72 (a recruiter who got a 35 on his MCAT, Med school here I come!!)
 
bliss72 said:
Bliss72 (a recruiter who got a 35 on his MCAT, Med school here I come!!)
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Does this mean you believe your own lies?

Sincerely, BomberDoc (an anti-recruiter who got 39 on his MCAT, med shool, I miss the good old days)
 
Thank you for all the helpful information.

I'm prior service 12 years. 6 active and 6 reserve. I ultimately hope to match in PM&R. Currently second year med student.

Again, can you still get FAP if you obtain a military residency?


Also, if anyone cares to comment on the pros and cons for finishing up 20 years based on the fact of my time in service would be appreciated. Do I have to do 20 active to collect pension?

Thanks for your time.
 
I realize that FAP freely changes their numbers from year to year, but is there a website out there anywhere that lists what specialties are available this year? I'm mostly interested in the Navy.

For a recruiting effort, it's amazing how much they keep their programs on the QT. Finding info on HPSP is easy, but I couldn't find anything on the Direct Accession Bonus outside of SDN (still haven't found the dollar amount by specialty. HRLRP was only mentioned in passing on the web. The only info I could find about FAP for the Navy was on a general site that listed old amounts.
 
Andrew_Doan said:
When you go to OIS after completing residency, you should be at least an O-4 with 4 years of service. The years of service is a HUGE thing. It means you get paid $923.70/month more than an O-4 with less than 2 years of service(http://www.dfas.mil/militarypay/newinformation/WebPayTableVersion2006updated.pdf). At year 6, you get another increase in your pay: $3150/year for 6 years of service and another $7000/year raise when your VSP goes up (http://www.militaryconnection.com/2007-pay-charts/2007-medical-dental-pay.asp). This is in addition to your $15,000/year ASP, $30,000/year ISP, and board certified pay which starts at $2500/year.
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I just met with a recruiter, and he suggested that my time in residency would not count towards retirement (I almost certain he's right here) and in computing years of service for pay purposes (I think your post conflicts here), but that it would count for rank (I think he's right here, too).

He printed some information for me, USAREC Reg 610-37 as labeled on the bottom of the page. 21-4 "FAP" e.3 "FAP participants will be assigned to control group officer active obligor at HRC-St. Louis during the duration of their residency or fellowship program training. As such, time spent while participating in FAP will not be counted in determining eligibility for retirement or in the computing years of service for pay purposes."

This last phrase, for computing years of service for pay purposes... I'm assuming that means I'd start with 0 years of experience for pay after FAP? For promotions, do my residency years count?

Thanks for the information.
 
icecubemit said:
I just met with a recruiter, and he suggested that my time in residency would not count towards retirement (I almost certain he's right here) and in computing years of service for pay purposes (I think your post conflicts here), but that it would count for rank (I think he's right here, too).

He printed some information for me, USAREC Reg 610-37 as labeled on the bottom of the page. 21-4 "FAP" e.3 "FAP participants will be assigned to control group officer active obligor at HRC-St. Louis during the duration of their residency or fellowship program training. As such, time spent while participating in FAP will not be counted in determining eligibility for retirement or in the computing years of service for pay purposes."

This last phrase, for computing years of service for pay purposes... I'm assuming that means I'd start with 0 years of experience for pay after FAP? For promotions, do my residency years count?

Thanks for the information.
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This is my understanding. Residency counts towards promotions. My colleagues and I were promoted to 0-4 right after residency.

In regard to years of service for pay purposes:

This is from the U.S. Code about the HPSP and FAP

(b) Service Creditable for Certain Purposes. - (1) The Secretary

concerned may authorize service performed by a member of the

program in pursuit of a course of study under this subchapter to be

counted in accordance with this subsection if the member -

(A) completes the course of study;

(B) completes the active duty obligation imposed under section

2123(a) of this title; and

(C) possesses a specialty designated by the Secretary concerned

as critically needed in wartime.
 
Currently, FAP are not gaining time towards pay. Oddly, those in deferred status are. Not saying it is right or wrong, merely stating what is being applied. FAP members are given similar status to HPSP when it comes to pay/retirement points etc.
 
NavyFP said:
Currently, FAP are not gaining time towards pay. Oddly, those in deferred status are. Not saying it is right or wrong, merely stating what is being applied. FAP members are given similar status to HPSP when it comes to pay/retirement points etc.
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So the years spent as FAP prior to active duty do not add up towards rank?
 
johnnyp said:
So the years spent as FAP prior to active duty do not add up towards rank?
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No, those years DO count towards rank, just not pay. (yes, I shake my head in wonderment too.)
 
Does anyone know if it is possible to be selected for FAP as a podiatric resident? Thank you.
 
I'm a Marine Corps veteran and third-year medical student interested in EM. I received a flier from the Navy concerning the FAP and am very interested. So for those who have done it, the big question is "Would you do it again?".

Also, I am sure that I do not want to do it if I can be pulled from residency to serve as a GMO. Has this happened to anyone participating in the FAP (not HPSP)?
 
Kris1 said:
I'm a Marine Corps veteran and third-year medical student interested in EM. I received a flier from the Navy concerning the FAP and am very interested. So for those who have done it, the big question is "Would you do it again?".

Also, I am sure that I do not want to do it if I can be pulled from residency to serve as a GMO. Has this happened to anyone participating in the FAP (not HPSP)?
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If you join FAP, you will not be pulled into service as a GMO unless you request it or fail out of your residency.
 
Can anyone comment on the frequency and length of deployments as an EM physician in the armed forces? How about differences in Army vs. Navy vs. Air Force in regards to the FAP?
 
Thanks to everyone for the very informative thread. :thumbup:

Does anyone know [or can point me to] the reference that mentions how much credit my MS "gets" me towards O4? I am prior service (a hair below 6 years) and going into a 3y EM program.

For those interested, I found the powerpoint given to Navy health care recruiters, found at the "Recruiters" link on this page.
 
EvoDevo said:
Thanks to everyone for the very informative thread. :thumbup:

Does anyone know [or can point me to] the reference that mentions how much credit my MS "gets" me towards O4? I am prior service (a hair below 6 years) and going into a 3y EM program.

For those interested, I found the powerpoint given to Navy health care recruiters, found at the "Recruiters" link on this page.
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Credit for your MS would depend on what your MS is in. It has to be directly applicable to your performance as a doc in the military. You can get up to 2 years.

For Navy guidance look at OPNAV INST 1120.4.
 
NavyFP said:
Credit for your MS would depend on what your MS is in. It has to be directly applicable to your performance as a doc in the military. You can get up to 2 years.

For Navy guidance look at OPNAV INST 1120.4.
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Awesome. Thanks for the pointer.
 
Question about something first mentioned on the thread:

One of the points for HPSP>FAP:
"-Earning ~$80k+ during residency will likely mean that you will have to go into student loan repayment, which for most people means spending ~$10k a year in payments"

I don't understand this point. Isn't the financial purpose of FAP to, essentially, pay off your student loans for you? With the ~$45k/year (though, for many schools, that would probably not pay off loans at all.)
And then you live on your regular resident pay and monthly stipend?

Am I totally off the mark here?
 
You do not have to go into student loan repayment when under the FAP program your still technically a resident, you can forbear during your residency while receiving FAP.
 
BluSkye712 said:
Question about something first mentioned on the thread:

One of the points for HPSP>FAP:
"-Earning ~$80k+ during residency will likely mean that you will have to go into student loan repayment, which for most people means spending ~$10k a year in payments"

I don't understand this point. Isn't the financial purpose of FAP to, essentially, pay off your student loans for you? With the ~$45k/year (though, for many schools, that would probably not pay off loans at all.)
And then you live on your regular resident pay and monthly stipend?

Am I totally off the mark here?
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That is exactly my thought. As a resident you can still live a decent life with about $40-$5000 as a resident (I am sure that is definitely more than what most med students live off of per year). I would use the stipend of about $2000 a month as my living expenses and the $45000 to pay my loans. The resident pay would be more than enough for myself. But I know this all depends on whether you are single, have a family or some other personal situation.
 
Motivated Psych PGY-2 soon to be PGY-3 here and former 0311 :cool: USMC was going through old papers/intern year welcome package and came across USAF FAP recruiting flyer....anybody do this FAP recently that might be able to lend some insight? Gold star for USAF FAP info.
 
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Any FAPpers able to comment on how long it took to receive the :thumbup: on their application after the board met? Mine was reviewed on 12/10 and I have yet to hear anything. Also, after the final approval was dealt how long did it take to get paid?
 
Does anyone know where to find current specialty needs that the branches will fill with FAP recruits? I tried navigating the mil websites, but am not having much luck. lol I am considering doing IM or EM. Thanks!
 
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