Fellowship and MSP loophole, questions about timing

[bricktamland]

I appreciate any advice on this situation, as it seems very complicated. My situation is that I am currently eligible for the MSP bonus (I have more than 8 years TIS, I'm not in training, etc). I'm considering taking advantage of the mystical MSP and fellowship loophole. A point of emphasis is that I am eligible to separate from the Navy in 2016. What I need to know is how the heck the timing works with the MSP execution date in relation to the fellowship application. These are potential options I have this summer:

1. I apply for a Navy fellowship (FTIS) this summer for a 2015 spot. GME results are out in DEC 2014.
2. I apply for a Full Time Outservice (FTOS) this summer, in conjunction with a civilian fellowship application for a 2016 spot. I find out about the civilian fellowship in OCT/NOV. I wouldn't know about the FTOS until DEC 2014.

I know that in order to take advantage of the MSP and fellowship loophole, you need to have the MSP contract "executed" prior to signing the fellowship contract. So here is the big question:

-- When do I have to sign the MSP? Does it have to be before OCT 1st, or can it be any time of the year?
-- Can I sign it in Dec/Jan, AFTER I here about the fellowship results, but BEFORE I actually sign the orders agreeing to take the FTIS/FTOS?

Another question:

-- If I sign up for the MSP prior to OCT 1st, but I am not awarded FTIS or FTOS, but I AM chosen for a civilian fellowship, can I then request to decline the MSP and pay back any funds?

Essentially, I am considering staying in service if I can take advantage of this loophole. But if it doesn't work out, I want to get out. If I were to be selected for a civilian fellowship, but not be awarded FTIS/FTOS, I would decline any future orders to extend my commitment, and plan to separate in 2016. Thanks in advance for any help.

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[pgg]

-- When do I have to sign the MSP? Does it have to be before OCT 1st, or can it be any time of the year?

MSP contracts can be signed any time of the year, provide you are eligible, and meet the ISP timing requirements (at least 3 months past residency graduation) ... this typically works out to no earlier than 1 Oct. But, you can slide that to the right. AFAIK there's no reason you can't go ISP-less in Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan ... then sign a 4-year MSP on Feb 12th ... but your contract will be from 12 Feb 201x to 11 Feb 201x+4, throwing things off the usual academic year cycle for the future, which may cause issues later.

There's always the caveat that technically the Navy is not obligated to offer MSP contracts to any given specialty in any given year, if they judge that there is no need. I've never heard of anyone being denied a MSP contract though.

Because the NAVADMIN is often late, it is common to sign ISP and MSP contracts in Nov or Dec, and have them backdated to be effective 1 Oct. There is typically a short window after the NAVADMIN comes out that allows this backdating; if you miss it, then the contract is effective the day you sign it.

-- Can I sign it in Dec/Jan, AFTER I here about the fellowship results, but BEFORE I actually sign the orders agreeing to take the FTIS/FTOS?

If you don't already have an ISP contract in effect then, yes.

-- If I sign up for the MSP prior to OCT 1st, but I am not awarded FTIS or FTOS, but I AM chosen for a civilian fellowship, can I then request to decline the MSP and pay back any funds?

No, as a rule, the military won't let people change their minds and pay back money that came with a service commitment. Improper counseling and paperwork errors can make it possible, but even then it's a huge struggle. The military doesn't want its money back; it wants what it bought: a period of your service. It has no motivation or obligation to let anyone out of contracts.

 

[TLAD123]

Not to completely hijack the thread - something I had wondered - if you are fresh out of residency but still have USUHS commitment, can you sign the MSP contract then and receive the benefits with the payback period to begin 4-7 years down the road when the rest of the USUHS/residency commitment has passed?

So for instance => USUHS -> Internship (1yr) -> Residency (2yr IM) -> Sign MSP and rec. benefit (still have 7-yr USUHS commitment) --> 7 yr later start 4-yr MSP payback

Can that be done? How would the loophole thing work? Would one have to wait until the MSP payback period in order to apply for fellowship, or would one be able to take part in fellowship at any time after the initial signing of MSP?

- This would all be for an IM specialty track.

 

[pgg]

Not to completely hijack the thread - something I had wondered - if you are fresh out of residency but still have USUHS commitment, can you sign the MSP contract then and receive the benefits with the payback period to begin 4-7 years down the road when the rest of the USUHS/residency commitment has passed?

So for instance => USUHS -> Internship (1yr) -> Residency (2yr IM) -> Sign MSP and rec. benefit (still have 7-yr USUHS commitment) --> 7 yr later start 4-yr MSP payback

Can that be done? How would the loophole thing work? Would one have to wait until the MSP payback period in order to apply for fellowship, or would one be able to take part in fellowship at any time after the initial signing of MSP?

- This would all be for an IM specialty track.

The "for instance" example person you describe would not be eligible to sign a MSP contract. Paragraph D-2-c of the FY14 special pay implementation guidance says re: MSP eligibility

who has at least eight years of creditable service, or has completed any active duty service commitment incurred for medical education and training, and

But, otherwise, what you wrote is basically correct. If you sign a MSP contract while you still have an educational obligation,
- you get the MSP pay right away
- the med school educational obligation is paid back FIRST*
- the MSP obligation, tacked on to the end of the edu ADSO, is paid back SECOND
- later, there will be a period when you are serving out the MSP obligation but not getting MSP (you can still get ISP)

So yes, technically, if the stars aligned and you did your FTOS fellowship during a window that matched the FTOS obligation to time you ended up serving the MSP obligation, they would be concurrent because you signed the MSP contract before you started fellowship (quite a few years before!) and you'd be through the loophole.

If, and I think this is what you're really asking, if you do the FTOS fellowship well before you're paying off the MSP obligation ... as I read it, the fellowship obligation should still be concurrent with the MSP obligation. That'd be a question to pose to someone with authority, and get an answer in writing.



* As explained to me by the ADSO calculator head honcho, when I asked this near-exact question, when I was considering taking MSP 2 years before my USUHS ADSO was up. Loophole navigation depends on which obligation gets served first.

 

[TLAD123]

Thank you, pgg. Did you end up signing it two years before your prior commitments were up? Why or why not if you don't mind me asking?

 

[bricktamland]

pgg, thanks as usual for the insightful feedback. A follow-up question:

Fellowship, when it's FTIS or FTOS, counts as payback toward any current obligation, correct? So, if you owe 4 years for residency, you've paid back 3, and then you start an FTIS/FTOS fellowship, that fellowship year will count as payback for that last year owed?

 

[colbgw02]

pgg, thanks as usual for the insightful feedback. A follow-up question:

Fellowship, when it's FTIS or FTOS, counts as payback toward any current obligation, correct? So, if you owe 4 years for residency, you've paid back 3, and then you start an FTIS/FTOS fellowship, that fellowship year will count as payback for that last year owed?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's right. You can't pay off a GME obligation while in training, and you can't pay off two GME obligations simultaneously. You can pay of GME + ROTC/academy/HPSP/MSP obligations concurrently, depending on how the timing works out, but not two from GME.

Under your construct, you would come out of a 1-year fellowship owing 3 years.

 

[TLAD123]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's right. You can't pay off a GME obligation while in training, and you can't pay off two GME obligations simultaneously. You can pay of GME + ROTC/academy/HPSP/MSP obligations concurrently, depending on how the timing works out, but not two from GME.

Under your construct, you would come out of a 1-year fellowship owing 3 years.

Not sayin you're wrong because I don't know but these documents use language like "initial residency training" which makes me think a fellow is kind of a DUINS like period that counts for pay/retirement/obligation payback, just incurring an extra obligation itself.

 

[colbgw02]

What documents?

 

[TLAD123]

The documents I referred to were the bumed explanation of specialty pays. What I was recalling might be incorrect but I had thought I read something like that. But not specifically for fellowship. I didn't know what they were implying by saying it that way.

 

[colbgw02]

The documents I referred to were the bumed explanation of specialty pays. What I was recalling might be incorrect but I had thought I read something like that. But not specifically for fellowship. I didn't know what they were implying by saying it that way.

The scenario outlined isn't about special pays or MSP. It's about two GME obligations.