Ferguson ruling

[ZzzPlz]

About to find out grand jury decision.

I will be shocked if Wilson gets indicted.

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[ZzzPlz]

Well there you go.

Hope everyone stays safe tonight...

 

[Mman]

as best I can tell from what was said.

-- there were plenty of witnesses giving all sorts of contradictory testimony. Some said he did this, some said he did that. The initial claim by some witnesses (who spoke to TV reporters) claimed that the officer shot Brown in the back while he was running away. Physical evidence contradicted that testimony and many of those witnesses then changed their story.

-- physical evidence was pretty conclusive that their was a physical altercation within the police car (Brown's blood on the gun, Brown's blood on the inside and outside of the Tahoe's driver door) and witnesses gave testimony to support that. Those same witnesses claimed Brown then ran after getting shot in (or through the window of) the Tahoe and the officer chased after him.

--Witnesses and apparently forensics support that Brown then stopped and charged at the officer when he was shot several times additonally and ultimately fatally. This is supported by the location of Brown's blood well away from the cruiser compared to where he was fatally shot (he had to have doubled back towards the officer).



So basically a kid who was jaywalking and suspected of theft disobeyed an officer, then got into a physical altercation in the cruiser with the officer and was shot and ran away and then possibly/probably turned around to come back at the officer. Bad situation and unfortunate.

We need a better dialogue with police in this country so that they can have the support of everybody. The narrative from some people is that this kid was murdered because he was black. That's just not true and there apparently isn't any evidence to support that. People need to obey the law. When cops show up, they need to do what the cops ask them to do. I respect officers that put their lives on the line every day to protect law abiding citizens. Unfortunately a minority of the population in this country doesn't have that same respect (for various reasons). I think everybody needs to work on improving that relationship.

 

[DocOk]

as best I can tell from what was said.

-- there were plenty of witnesses giving all sorts of contradictory testimony. Some said he did this, some said he did that. The initial claim by some witnesses (who spoke to TV reporters) claimed that the officer shot Brown in the back while he was running away. Physical evidence contradicted that testimony and many of those witnesses then changed their story.

-- physical evidence was pretty conclusive that their was a physical altercation within the police car (Brown's blood on the gun, Brown's blood on the inside and outside of the Tahoe's driver door) and witnesses gave testimony to support that. Those same witnesses claimed Brown then ran after getting shot in (or through the window of) the Tahoe and the officer chased after him.

--Witnesses and apparently forensics support that Brown then stopped and charged at the officer when he was shot several times additonally and ultimately fatally. This is supported by the location of Brown's blood well away from the cruiser compared to where he was fatally shot (he had to have doubled back towards the officer).



So basically a kid who was jaywalking and suspected of theft disobeyed an officer, then got into a physical altercation in the cruiser with the officer and was shot and ran away and then possibly/probably turned around to come back at the officer. Bad situation and unfortunate.

We need a better dialogue with police in this country so that they can have the support of everybody. The narrative from some people is that this kid was murdered because he was black. That's just not true and there apparently isn't any evidence to support that. People need to obey the law. When cops show up, they need to do what the cops ask them to do. I respect officers that put their lives on the line every day to protect law abiding citizens. Unfortunately a minority of the population in this country doesn't have that same respect (for various reasons). I think everybody needs to work on improving that relationship.

I do agree that this is not a race thing but the officer put three shots in the kid while he was bent over forward on the ground. One being the likely fatal shot to the head. The prosecutor said there were a series of shots followed by a pause then 3 more shots. Sounds like a scared officer with some excessive force on an already subdued suspect. It's tragic and no American should have to fear the police. May God bless Mike Brown and Ferguson.

 

[Mman]

I do agree that this is not a race thing but the officer put three shots in the kid while he was bent over forward on the ground. One being the likely fatal shot to the head.

I don't think they found any physical evidence to support that theory nor any credible witnesses to back it up.

Like I said, it's a shame. Kid is dead and he didn't have to be. But from all available evidence, it sounds like it's mostly his own fault that he's dead. The officer could potentially have gotten away with less use of force, but it's hard to be judgmental when a massive guy is attacking you and not responding to orders from the officer. Officers do get killed in the line of duty and you never know if somebody is unarmed until after the fact.

If there was evidence that the officer shot the kid several times while he was running away then there would be a different story. But the only people in the world that have seen all the evidence felt that wasn't the case.

 

[ZzzPlz]

Sounds like Brown was also reaching at his waistline while he was approaching the officer.

That's a huge no-no when an officer already has several reasons to fear for his life.

 

[jwk]

I do agree that this is not a race thing but the officer put three shots in the kid while he was bent over forward on the ground.

You must not have listened to the same prosecutor I listened to - or you weren't listening, since that's not what was stated.

 

[BuzzPhreed]

We don't so much have a race problem in this country as we do a culture problem. That's what really needs to be addressed.

 

[DocOk]

You must not have listened to the same prosecutor I listened to - or you weren't listening, since that's not what was stated.

Go to 21:30

 

[DocOk]

We don't so much have a race problem in this country as we do a culture problem. That's what really needs to be addressed.

Very true we have some of the people who don't trust the police and some police who trust the people. I don't know how to remedy this issue due to it's deep history built on racism. I do not believe the overwhelming majority of officers practice in a racist manner, but may tend to group all ethnicities in a low income community into the same "thug" category. And likewise after being harassed by some cops the ppl deem all cops as "crooked". I do agree a form of audio or video with every police encounter could be helpful.

On a similar note I don't understand how people can loot and destroy their own community, slander the police, and say f the government. When one day one of your friends will own that store, one day you will need that police officer, one day your friend/ family may be on government assistance. I as a black male have chosen to except what ever bias may come my way for or against me and prevail. The world respects those who do respectable things the vast majority of the time. Have I been discriminated against definitely by police oh yes. In my experiences most Caucasians have been very helpful and kind as goes for the police.

 

[GaseousClay]

people like sharpton and the activists feed on these communities. Rile a bunch of people up and then try to say they are against violence, looting and rioting. Such a crock of s***. They know the second they get the community riled up there will be hundreds of opportunist, leechers just waiting to loot and destroy.

cops definitely need to all wear cameras with audio so theres no speculation. cops did what he was trained to do but i think the training needs to be better on when use excessive force. if you shoot someone and hes coming at you, theres nothing wrong with backing up, running away or maybe shooting out his legs. theres no reason to shoot to kill an unarmed man just because hes coming at you.

 

[Mman]

Go to 21:30

No. You said "while he was bent over forward on the ground". The prosecutor said the bullets were consistent with him being bent forward. As in running towards the officer bent forward. He didn't say consistent with him being on the ground at the time.

 

[DocOk]

No. You said "while he was bent over forward on the ground". The prosecutor said the bullets were consistent with him being bent forward. As in running towards the officer bent forward. He didn't say consistent with him being on the ground at the time.

How do you shoot some one running to you in the scalp and it exits out of your cheek? C'mon man. But there was no trial so all you and I can do us speculate.

 

[Mman]

How do you shoot some one running to you in the scalp and it exits out of your cheek? C'mon man. But there was no trial so all you and I can do us speculate.

Very easily. All it requires is the persons head to be pointed down as it would be if they were charging at you with head down or if they were looking down and reaching into their pants or pocket (as officer testified). There is no evidence he was shot while on the ground.

 

[yappy]

On a similar note I don't understand how people can loot and destroy their own community, slander the police, and say f the government. When one day one of your friends will own that store, one day you will need that police officer, one day your friend/ family may be on government assistance. I as a black male have chosen to except what ever bias may come my way for or against me and prevail. The world respects those who do respectable things the vast majority of the time. Have I been discriminated against definitely by police oh yes. In my experiences most Caucasians have been very helpful and kind as goes for the police.

Hence his comment that culture is the problem. I've worked in direct contact with communities like Ferguson and it becomes clear in short time that their problems are caused 99.9% of the time by their culture; poverty is just a symptom of their affinity for violence, ignorance, poor financial choices, lack of life planning, dysfunctional families, vices, etc. It has nothing to do with this correlative concept of structural racism but can be pegged squarely on causative reasons like the ones I described. This becomes evident when you see these same cultural motifs manifest destructive in white communities as well as minority communities.

 

[anbuitachi]

It is absolutely cultural. It's easier to tell police officers to approach everyone equally w/o racism, but when one race commits significantly more crime than the others..
"According to the BJS non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the prison and jail population in 2009, with whites 34.2%, and Hispanics 20.6%. "
Blacks only make up 14% of the population, whites make up 72%, yet blacks commit more crime. This conditions the police officers to be more cautious when approaching a black man especially if their life could be on the line. What needs to be fixed is the culture behind the high crime rate in black population..

 

[deleted171991]

This is exactly how I feel about this entire story:
Officer Darren Wilson's story is unbelievable. Literally.

What happens next is the most unbelievable moment in the narrative. And so it's probably best that I just quote Wilson's account at length on it.

I was doing the, just scrambling, trying to get his arms out of my face and him from grabbing me and everything else. He turned to his...if he's at my vehicle, he turned to his left and handed the first subject. He said, "here, take these." He was holding a pack of — several packs of cigarillos which was just, what was stolen from the Market Store was several packs of cigarillos. He said, "here, hold these" and when he did that I grabbed his right arm trying just to control something at that point. Um, as I was holding it, and he came around, he came around with his arm extended, fist made, and went like that straight at my face with his...a full swing from his left hand.​

So Brown is punching inside the car. Wilson is scrambling to deflect the blows, to protect his face, to regain control of the situation. And then Brown stops, turns to his left, says to his friend, "Here, hold these," and hands him the cigarillos stolen from Ferguson Market. Then he turns back to Wilson and, with his left hand now freed from holding the contraband goods, throws a haymaker at Wilson.

Wilson next recounts his thought process as he reached for a weapon. He considered using his mace, but at such close range, the mace might get in his eyes, too. He doesn't carry a taser with a fireable cartridge, but even if he did, "it probably wouldn't have hit [Brown] anywhere". Wilson couldn't reach his baton or his flashlight. So he went for his gun.

Brown sees him go for the gun. And he replies: "You're too much of a ****ing ***** to shoot me."

"You're too much of a ****ing ***** to shoot me."

Again, stop for a moment and think about that. Brown is punching Wilson, sees the terrified cop reaching for his gun, and says "You're too much of a ****ing ***** to shoot me." He dares him to shoot.

And then Brown grabs Wilson's gun, twists it, and points it at Wilson's "pelvic area". Wilson regains control of the firearm and gets off a shot, shattering the glass. Brown backs up a half step and, realizing he's unharmed, dives back into the car to attack Wilson. Wilson fires again, and then Brown takes off running. (You can see the injuries Wilson sustained from the fight in these photographs.)

Wilson exits the car to give chase. He yells at Brown to get down on the ground. Here, I'm going to go back to Wilson's words:

When he stopped, he turned, looked at me, made like a grunting noise and had the most intense, aggressive face I've ever seen on a person. When he looked at me, he then did like the hop...you know, like people do to start running. And, he started running at me. During his first stride, he took his right hand put it under his shirt into his waistband. And I ordered him to stop and get on the ground again. He didn't. I fired multiple shots. After I fired the multiple shots, I paused a second, yelled at him to get on the ground again, he was still in the same state. Still charging, hand still in his waistband, hadn't slowed down.​

The stuff about Brown putting his hand in his waistband is meant to suggest that Wilson had reason to believe Brown might pull a gun. But it's strange. We know Brown didn't have a gun. And that's an odd fact to obscure while charging a police officer.

Either way, at that point, Wilson shoots again, and kills Brown.

But the larger question is, in a sense, simpler: Why?

Why did Michael Brown, an 18-year-old kid headed to college, refuse to move from the middle of the street to the sidewalk? Why would he curse out a police officer? Why would he attack a police officer? Why would he dare a police officer to shoot him? Why would he charge a police officer holding a gun? Why would he put his hand in his waistband while charging, even though he was unarmed?

None of this fits with what we know of Michael Brown

None of this fits with what we know of Michael Brown. Brown wasn't a hardened felon. He didn't have a death wish. And while he might have been stoned, this isn't how stoned people act. The toxicology report did not indicate he was on PCP or something that would've led to suicidal aggression.

Which doesn't mean Wilson is a liar. Unbelievable things happen every day. The fact that his story raises more questions than it answers doesn't mean it isn't true.

But the point of a trial would have been to try to answer these questions. We would have either found out if everything we thought we knew about Brown was wrong, or if Wilson's story was flawed in important ways. But now we're not going to get that chance. We're just left with Wilson's unbelievable story.

 

[DocOk]

You my fr

It is absolutely cultural. It's easier to tell police officers to approach everyone equally w/o racism, but when one race commits significantly more crime than the others..
"According to the BJS non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the prison and jail population in 2009, with whites 34.2%, and Hispanics 20.6%. "
Blacks only make up 14% of the population, whites make up 72%, yet blacks commit more crime. This conditions the police officers to be more cautious when approaching a black man especially if their life could be on the line. What needs to be fixed is the culture behind the high crime rate in black population..

You my friend come off as ignorant at best and arrogant at worst. It has all to do with socioeconomics not with less to do with race. As someone eluded to previously. But to speak on your caution, sometimes it is built on lack of understanding of the difference in culture. The way someone looks wether skin color, attire, or language should not guilt edge you to a criminal motive. Take the Jonathan Ferrell story for instance. Luckily there was video and audio evidence to indict the officer.

 

[Mman]

This is exactly how I feel about this entire story:
Officer Darren Wilson's story is unbelievable. Literally.

All I know is it was so unbelievable it was corroborated by physical evidence and eyewitnesses.

 

[deleted171991]

It is absolutely cultural. It's easier to tell police officers to approach everyone equally w/o racism, but when one race commits significantly more crime than the others..
"According to the BJS non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the prison and jail population in 2009, with whites 34.2%, and Hispanics 20.6%. "
Blacks only make up 14% of the population, whites make up 72%, yet blacks commit more crime. This conditions the police officers to be more cautious when approaching a black man especially if their life could be on the line. What needs to be fixed is the culture behind the high crime rate in black population..

Careful. Being convicted/cleared of a crime does not necessarily mean that one is guilty/innocent, just that one had worse/better lawyers, or was presented as less/more sympathetic to the jury.

We, as a society, still treat a lot of people like the hunchback of Notre-Dame.

 

[deleted171991]

All I know is it was so unbelievable it was corroborated by physical evidence and eyewitnesses.

There are tons of studies proving that eyewitnesses are not always reliable. E.g., remember the invisible gorilla experiment? Why are we releasing so many innocent people, based on new forensic results, decades after they were convicted based on eyewitness testimony?

The only irrefutable evidence is a full audio-video recording, which is exactly why all law enforcement should wear body cameras, while on duty.

I believe that the kid was shot not because he was black, but because he committed the unimaginable lese-majesty of disrespecting (and even touching) his highness, the police officer, and then he gave him an excuse to shoot at him. This was an unarmed suspect. It should automatically get a full trial; that's just common-sense in a true democracy that values every single life. It should not be OK for police to kill unarmed suspects.

The kid was shot at least 20 feet away from the police car, in the back, so I don't believe the story that the policeman was afraid for his life. He could have driven away and/or called for backup.

One more thing: the prosecutor should have been black and beyond reproach (not like the current one). That's like a no-brainer.

 

[chocomorsel]

Think about all the three hundred years of slavery, where Blacks were treated like non-humans, beaten, raped, murdured while the Caucasians had the freedoms of being able to own land and own black slaves to till that land for them and assist them in ammasing their wealth.

When emancipation came, it wasn't like these same slaves were given land and housing. It was, "Hey nig...s, you all are now free. Go out and fend for yourselves away from the White people! No education, no money, continued discrimination, but they were now they were free. Where did they end up? in cheap housing, in segregated communities, because they just couldn't go up and buy houses next to their old slave masters right? And since they all ended up segregated together, uneducated, poor, they all ended up going to black schools mainly in the inner city and the poor ethnic communities, because they weren't exactly allowed to go to schools with their slave masters's white children right? Remember desegregation in the sixties? Have any of you been in a poor black neighborhood in the inner city or gone to a school in this environment?

These schools are funded by by the local taxpayers. Taxpayers in these communities aren't exactly middle class. The schools tend to be very poor quality, without enough equipment, books and poor quality teachers.

If any of you are following this, what I am trying to say is that the majority of Caucasians in this country, have been born on second and third base because their ancestors did not suffer the same injustices and prejudices as the Blacks did. Most grow up in middle class communities and go to decent schools in suburbia or even expensive private schools. This is then followed by college and jobs. If they don't go to to college, their chance of getting hired versus a Black person is much higher due to inbred and or subconscious prejudices against the black person in this country.

In the poor neighborhoods, people resort to crime (i.e drugs) for easy/quick money because they are constantly at the bottom of the food chain, they are going to poor schools, ignorant to the world outside the "hood", don't know many other successful Blacks who can be their role models, no one to encourage them to go to school and leave the crime behind, have a difficult time getting hired even menial jobs compared to their Caucasian counterparts because of their race. Crime perpetuates crime, poverty, more poverty, cycle after cycle. A few are able to get out of this poverty, and move forward and upward out of these poor communities by getting an education. But it is very difficult to go against the grain.

So just think of how lucky you were to be born White in this country and on second or third base most likely compared to the average Black person whose family does not have any wealth, don't own a house, have very few in the family with a college education. It will take a long time for Backs to catch up to the Caucasians in this country. Don't be so quick to think that Black folks are innately violent and that's why they are the largest population in jail. There are a lot of circumstances that lead a certain type of people to behave a certain type of way.

Example; Look at the Native American population and see how well they are doing living on the reservations. Lots of alcoholism and poverty. Their land was taken from them and they were put in reservations by the Europeans/Caucasians. The Hispanic communities are not doing that much better than the Black communities as they also have been marginalized in the past and present as well.

I think one of the ways to fix a lot of these situations is to have all schools federally funded and not locally funded. That way the caliber of all schools is more on the same level and the schools in the rich neighborhoods don't have an excess and the poor schools are lacking basic items and good teachers. Education is certainly the key and can get people of many of these poor communities.

Of course, the Caucasians have to be willing to hire them without prejudice, which is difficult because some of the prejudice is subconscious. Haven't you seen the news stories where the reporters do an experiment based on a person's name?

Roberto Hernandez and Robert Smith are both equally qualified and looking for a job. Which CV moves forward in the process?
Hakim Williams and Aaron Jacobs are both equally qualified and looking for a job. Which CV moves forward in the process? You guessed it.

In the end, it turns out it's the same person, but of course the CV with the "Ethnic" name has been eliminated in the process. You have all seen it, and if not, then trust me. It's been done and continues to get done.

Check out the Black in America series done by CNN.

I am out. Sorry, if this is too long. Just food for thought. Trying to open up your minds the the plight of other races.

 

[chocomorsel]

There are tons of studies proving that eyewitnesses are not always reliable. E.g., remember the invisible gorilla experiment? Why are we releasing so many innocent people, based on new forensic results, decades after they were convicted based on eyewitness testimony?

The only irrefutable evidence is a full audio-video recording, which is exactly why all law enforcement should wear body cameras, while on duty.

I believe that the kid was shot not because he was black, but because he committed the unimaginable lese-majesty of disrespecting (and even touching) his highness, the police officer, and then he gave him an excuse to shoot at him. This was an unarmed suspect. It should automatically get a full trial; that's just common-sense in a true democracy that values every single life. It should not be OK for police to kill unarmed suspects.

The kid was shot at least 20 feet away from the police car, in the back, so I don't believe the story that the policeman was afraid for his life. He could have driven away and/or called for backup.

One more thing: the prosecutor should have been black and beyond reproach (not like the current one). That's like a no-brainer.

In a city that is 2/3 Black, how come 9/12 jurors in the Grand Jury were Caucasian? How representative is that of Mr. Brown's peers?

People, especially police don't react the same way to Caucasian as they do t Minority (Black/Hispanic) suspects. Its partly subconscious partly from previous experience.
Even if a Caucasian has never had an injustice happen to them from a Black person, the subconscious has been trained by the news and movies that Blacks are more violent, and ignorant, and uneducated. So therefore discrimination continues to happen.

 

[IkeBoy18]

It is absolutely cultural. It's easier to tell police officers to approach everyone equally w/o racism, but when one race commits significantly more crime than the others..
"According to the BJS non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the prison and jail population in 2009, with whites 34.2%, and Hispanics 20.6%. "
Blacks only make up 14% of the population, whites make up 72%, yet blacks commit more crime. This conditions the police officers to be more cautious when approaching a black man especially if their life could be on the line. What needs to be fixed is the culture behind the high crime rate in black population..

wow... def not a good wow

 

[deleted171991]

Why Darren Wilson was never going to be indicted for killing Michael Brown

Just two months before Brown was killed, the Supreme Court gave its ruling in Plumhoff v. Rickard, where the plaintiffs were suing after police officers ended a high speed chase by shooting 15 rounds into the car, killing the driver and a passenger. The court held that this wasn’t “excessive force” in violation of the Constitution, affirming years of deference to police departments. “It stands to reason,” wrote the justices in a 9–0 opinion, “that if police officers are justified in firing at a suspect in order to end a severe threat to public safety, the officers need not stop shooting until the threat has ended.”

Seriously? Is that the message the Supreme Court wants to send to law enforcement, in a true democracy where every life is supposed to matter? Here's the result.

 

[deleted171991]

Bob McCulloch’s pathetic prosecution of Darren Wilson

What causes the outrage, and the despair, is the joke of a grand-jury proceeding run under the auspices of McCulloch, the St. Louis County prosecutor. In September, I wrote that it appeared he wasn’t even trying to get an indictment; he had a long record of protecting police in such cases, and his decision not to recommend a specific charge to the grand jury essentially guaranteed there would be no indictment.

Asked Monday night if he had any regrets about the way he handled the case, McCulloch replied, “No, not at all.” This shouldn’t be a surprise, given McCulloch’s history. That his father, a police officer, was killed by a black suspect doesn’t by itself disqualify him, but his record should have: Not a single prosecution of a shooting by police in his 23 years on the job. Four times he presented evidence to a grand jury in such a case and didn’t get an indictment; now he can add a fifth.

Wow, just wow, and not a good wow!

 

[yappy]

I believe that the kid was shot not because he was black, but because he committed the unimaginable lese-majesty of disrespecting (and even touching) his highness, the police officer, and then he gave him an excuse to shoot at him. This was an unarmed suspect. It should automatically get a full trial; that's just common-sense in a true democracy that values every single life. It should not be OK for police to kill unarmed suspects.

The kid was shot at least 20 feet away from the police car, in the back, so I don't believe the story that the policeman was afraid for his life. He could have driven away and/or called for backup.

He was not shot in the back. Brown could have had a firearm. It's unreasonable for police to run from scenes as they need to exert control over them, maintain order, and limit threats to innocent people.

Speaking to a broader point - do you realize that an unarmed person could easily throw someone else to the ground and stomp their head, or choke, or use the sidewalk, etc. to kill? One well placed strike could leave someone unconscious & vulnerable or dead from TBI. Unarmed people are a significant threat to your life if their intent is to harm you. Real life is not a like the **** movies.

 

[Mman]

There are tons of studies proving that eyewitnesses are not always reliable. E.g., remember the invisible gorilla experiment? Why are we releasing so many innocent people, based on new forensic results, decades after they were convicted based on eyewitness testimony?

But see, that's why the physical evidence that backed up those witnesses was key. That was what the prosecutor said. The witnesses that said he shot Brown while he was running away or with his hands up later changed their stories when presented with physical evidence contrary to their testimony. The forensic evidence supported the officer.

There is apparently no evidence or credible witness to discredit the officer's version of events. The kid got into a physical altercation with the cop in his car, got shot, ran away, then turned around and ran back towards the pursuing officer. That's the extant of what can be proved by the physical evidence based on where blood was found and where the gunshot wounds were located.

Saying there should automatically be a trial if an unarmed person is killed by a cop is a discredit to how our system works. Who pays for the trial? Those things are expensive. Is the cop required to pay for his own defense for that? Doesn't seem fair if there is no evidence he committed a crime.

What there should be is a trial if there is enough evidence to warrant one.

 

[deleted171991]

He was not shot in the back. Brown could have had a firearm. It's unreasonable for police to run from scenes as they need to exert control over them and limit threats to innocent people.

Why is is unreasonable? I think you are the one watching too many movies. What's unreasonable is to shoot a suspect after the suspect is not a threat anymore.

Speaking to a broader point - do you realize that an unarmed person could easily throw someone else to the ground and stomp their head, or choke, or use the sidewalk, etc. to kill? Unarmed people are a significant threat to your life if their intent is to harm you. Real life is not a like **** movies.

And had that been the case (Brown shot while attacking the officer in his car), I would have believed that the officer was afraid for his life. Here he was judge, jury and executioner. He should have gone to prison for it.

 

[Mman]

Why Darren Wilson was never going to be indicted for killing Michael Brown

Seriously? Is that the message the Supreme Court wants to send to law enforcement, in a true democracy where every life is supposed to matter? Here's the result.

Yes, even the most liberal justices on the Supreme Court agreed with that. The burden is on the person breaking the law or providing the threat to stand down, not on the officer to wait around and see if they are going to start behaving nicely.

 

[Mman]

And had that been the case (Brown shot while attacking the officer in his car), I would have believed that the officer was afraid for his life.

Yes, Brown was shot while attacking the officer in his car. That's why his blood was on the interior of the Tahoe. The fact that Brown fled and then turned around and charged back at the cop is pretty good evidence the cop should fear for his life.

I mean how reasonable is it to shoot somebody, have them get up and run away, and then have them start coming back at you and not think they are coming back to kill you? People who surrender don't walk back towards the cop, they get on the ground and put their hands out away from their body.

 

[deleted171991]

Why did the cop get out of the car in pursuit of the suspect, if he was afraid for his life? Why not call for reinforcements? Because he's the sheriff in the latest Western movie? No, because he knows that he can shoot that suspect, if needed, and get away with it. Macho, macho, macho man...

I am sorry, but that's the message all these police executions are sending to the world about America (besides the fact that we have the absolute highest rate of incarceration per capita of any decent country in the world).

If my patient gets harmed by a known possible complication, I get sued, but if she's executed by a cop, the cop cannot be sued even for civil damages. Makes sense? Makes sense.

And who in their right mind would allow a 28 year-old to police a difficult neighborhood on his own? Seriously, how much respect can he project, and what's the level of judgment of a kid like that in a crisis situation?

 

[yappy]

Why is is unreasonable? I think you are the one watching too many movies. What's unreasonable is to shoot a suspect after the suspect is not a threat anymore.

And had that been the case (Brown shot while attacking the officer in his car), I would have believed that the officer was afraid for his life. Here he was judge, jury and executioner. He should have gone to prison for it.

I said it was unreasonable for the officer to flee the scene.

He did shoot while in his car. Then he pursued Brown who turned towards him and began coming towards the officer. In response to a threatening posture [closing the gap between them while grabbing at his waistband] the officer shot Brown killing him. What would you have done? Again, this isn't like the movies where you shoot someone once and they fly back 5 feet. Guns don't ensure your personal safety.

EDIT: He did it because it's his job and has legal authority to enforce the law.

 

[deleted171991]

EDIT: He did it because it's his job and has legal authority to enforce the law.

That's just BS. One can enforce the law up to the point where one crosses the law. This killing was out of proportion with the initial offense (jaywalking). And I am pretty sure the situation escalated exactly because the police officer was inexperienced, and could not deal properly with another testosterone-filled young male. It takes two to tango. This was the equivalent of a bar fight, where one participant was young, stupid, strong, but unarmed, and the other was cocky, armed and picked the fight in the first place.

If this is his job, let me tell you that he sucks at it. If he's physically intimidated by big black males, maybe he should not be allowed to police such a neighborhood, especially on his own. Had it been a big black policeman, I bet that he would have projected more respect and fear.

Actually, let me amend that. People should not fear cops, they should respect them. Respect is earned, which is much harder than imposing fear.

 

[anbuitachi]

You my fr


You my friend come off as ignorant at best and arrogant at worst. It has all to do with socioeconomics not with less to do with race. As someone eluded to previously. But to speak on your caution, sometimes it is built on lack of understanding of the difference in culture. The way someone looks wether skin color, attire, or language should not guilt edge you to a criminal motive. Take the Jonathan Ferrell story for instance. Luckily there was video and audio evidence to indict the officer.

Alright guys, I know what I said may have came off a bit strong. Clearly I was generalizing b/c I didn't want to write a paper on this on SDN... But seriously people need to be stop being super sensitive and be more REALISTIC. Something sound great in your head, but it just isn't how things work, or how our minds were designed to work. Obviously in an ideal world, all would be equal, but we don't live in that world and never will. We need to make the best of what we have in this world..... I know a lot of people agree with me, b/c I have spoke to them in person. Some don't agree as well but that's understandable, however I did notice that most people are too sensitive about these things and refuse to speak up if their opinions may sound harsh.

With regards to what you said DocOk, you come off as extremely ignorant. You got to look at the big picture. Socioeconomics have a big role, yes I agree, but what caused this socioeconomic divide? I believe that has a lot to do with cultural as well. This has been discussed recently by Stephen A Smith (the ESPN guy) which received a backlash (which always happens when you talk about sensitive topics). It's easy to blame things just on money/socioeconomics, but thats just a way out of the bigger issue.

Like Charles Barkley and Mark Cuban talked about as well, a lot of it has to do with how you present yourself.. you can be poor and still present yourself fine. One way to do that is not have your pants hanging at your knees. Another way to go at it is not to have piercings and tattoos covering most of your body. You can make the argument that people have the right to do whatever they want, and they shouldn't be judged b/c of that, well guess what, other ppl can judge however they want unfortunately, and unfortunately, there are some things you do that leaves a negative mark.

[also people need to stop assuming that when i say something it applies to all blacks in general. it's just relative guys...]


^this is exactly what is happening in this country. Browns case is partially related to that as well. And unfortunately we aren't doing anything to fix the big issue, the cause of things. That's what i meant by culture. everyone want changes overnight, no one wants to do the marathon

 

[yappy]

That's just BS. One can enforce the law up to the point where one crosses the law. This killing was out of proportion with the initial offense (jaywalking). And I am pretty sure the situation escalated exactly because the police officer was inexperienced, and could not deal properly with another testosterone-filled young male. It takes two to tango.

If this is his job, let me tell you that he sucks at it.

I'm done. You've gone completely off the rails logically.

 

[anbuitachi]

Think about all the three hundred years of slavery, where Blacks were treated like non-humans, beaten, raped, murdured while the Caucasians had the freedoms of being able to own land and own black slaves to till that land for them and assist them in ammasing their wealth.

When emancipation came, it wasn't like these same slaves were given land and housing. It was, "Hey nig...s, you all are now free. Go out and fend for yourselves away from the White people! No education, no money, continued discrimination, but they were now they were free. Where did they end up? in cheap housing, in segregated communities, because they just couldn't go up and buy houses next to their old slave masters right? And since they all ended up segregated together, uneducated, poor, they all ended up going to black schools mainly in the inner city and the poor ethnic communities, because they weren't exactly allowed to go to schools with their slave masters's white children right? Remember desegregation in the sixties? Have any of you been in a poor black neighborhood in the inner city or gone to a school in this environment?

These schools are funded by by the local taxpayers. Taxpayers in these communities aren't exactly middle class. The schools tend to be very poor quality, without enough equipment, books and poor quality teachers.

If any of you are following this, what I am trying to say is that the majority of Caucasians in this country, have been born on second and third base because their ancestors did not suffer the same injustices and prejudices as the Blacks did. Most grow up in middle class communities and go to decent schools in suburbia or even expensive private schools. This is then followed by college and jobs. If they don't go to to college, their chance of getting hired versus a Black person is much higher due to inbred and or subconscious prejudices against the black person in this country.

In the poor neighborhoods, people resort to crime (i.e drugs) for easy/quick money because they are constantly at the bottom of the food chain, they are going to poor schools, ignorant to the world outside the "hood", don't know many other successful Blacks who can be their role models, no one to encourage them to go to school and leave the crime behind, have a difficult time getting hired even menial jobs compared to their Caucasian counterparts because of their race. Crime perpetuates crime, poverty, more poverty, cycle after cycle. A few are able to get out of this poverty, and move forward and upward out of these poor communities by getting an education. But it is very difficult to go against the grain.

So just think of how lucky you were to be born White in this country and on second or third base most likely compared to the average Black person whose family does not have any wealth, don't own a house, have very few in the family with a college education. It will take a long time for Backs to catch up to the Caucasians in this country. Don't be so quick to think that Black folks are innately violent and that's why they are the largest population in jail. There are a lot of circumstances that lead a certain type of people to behave a certain type of way.

Example; Look at the Native American population and see how well they are doing living on the reservations. Lots of alcoholism and poverty. Their land was taken from them and they were put in reservations by the Europeans/Caucasians. The Hispanic communities are doing that much better than the Black communities as they also have been marginalized in the past and present as well.

I think one of the ways to fix a lot of these situations is to have all schools federally funded and not locally funded. That way the caliber of all schools is more on the same level and the schools in the rich neighborhoods don't have an excess and the poor schools are lacking basic items and good teachers. Education is certainly the key and can get people of many of these poor communities.

Of course, the Caucasians have to be willing to hire them without prejudice, which is difficult because some of the prejudice is subconscious. Haven't you seen the news stories where the reporters do an experiment based on a person's name?

Roberto Hernandez and Robert Smith are both equally qualified and looking for a job. Which CV moves forward in the process?
Hakim Williams and Aaron Jacobs are both equally qualified and looking for a job. Which CV moves forward in the process? You guessed it.

In the end, it turns out it's the same person, but of course the CV with the "Ethnic" name has been eliminated in the process. You have all seen it, and if not, then trust me. It's been done and continues to get done.

Check out the Black in America series done by CNN.

I am out. Sorry, if this is too long. Just food for thought. Trying to open up your minds the the plight of other races.

This is a great post. Definitely agree that we should think about it from their perspective as well. But I also do think there is a cultural aspect behind it as well. I do think there is still a lot of anger passed down from the yrs of slavery and segregation so there is a lot of 'white hating' still going on as well as frustration. However, some of the views on things is really messed up as well. I've heard from black friends that some communities go against doing well in school, viewing it as uncool, or being traitors.. etc. Others viewed getting arrested as cool, and a mark to show that you are a man, etc. there's a lot of weird things going on in some of these communities, and to fix it we got to really target the root of these causes. However the issue is that these guys don't trust white guys, so you have to send in black ppl to do it..

 

[jwk]

In a city that is 2/3 Black, how come 9/12 jurors in the Grand Jury were Caucasian? How representative is that of Mr. Brown's peers?

People, especially police don't react the same way to Caucasian as they do t Minority (Black/Hispanic) suspects. Its partly subconscious partly from previous experience.
Even if a Caucasian has never had an injustice happen to them from a Black person, the subconscious has been trained by the news and movies that Blacks are more violent, and ignorant, and uneducated. So therefore discrimination continues to happen.

Maybe you should learn a little about the St. Louis area instead of asking uninformed questions - I grew up five miles from where this all happened, and attended one of the high schools that used the Rams practice facilities while their schools were shut down during the August unrest.

FERGUSON is a small city of about 20,000 people that is roughly 2/3 black. It is a suburb of ST. LOUIS COUNTY, which, in the last census, was 23.3% black according to a Wiki article. There are dozens of these small incorporated cities just in St. Louis County. ST. LOUIS CITY has their own grand jury system because they are wholly separate and not a part of ST. LOUIS COUNTY. Although there were a lot of references to the city of St. Louis, and Ferguson is adjacent to the St. Louis City limits, Ferguson is entirely within St. Louis County.

The Grand Jury was a ST. LOUIS COUNTY grand jury. As in many counties across the country, most major legal matters are handled at the county level, unless it's a larger city. Simple math - 3 black jurors out of 12 is, oh lets see, about 25%, which is pretty darn close to 23.3%.

 

[deleted171991]

I'm done. You've gone completely off the rails logically.

Because your logic is American, and mine is foreign, and our life experience is also very much different. But that's OK.

You think that a lawman should never retreat, while I think that there are many ways to discipline a kid who's jaywalking, which include walking away from the situation. Why put a kid at risk, just because he has a big mouth and bad judgment (like many adolescent males)? Is jaywalking such a danger for society? It's a BS offense, it's kids being kids, like the one who just got killed for playing with a fake gun.

This was a situation created by the police officer, and that's just incredibly bad policing.

P.S. I don't buy the story with Wilson looking for the suspects from the convenience store robbery. Had that been the case, he would have approached them more cautiously and definitely not alone (they could have been armed).

 

[chocomorsel]

Maybe you should learn a little about the St. Louis area instead of asking uninformed questions - I grew up five miles from where this all happened, and attended one of the high schools that used the Rams practice facilities while their schools were shut down during the August unrest.

FERGUSON is a small city of about 20,000 people that is roughly 2/3 black. It is a suburb of ST. LOUIS COUNTY, which, in the last census, was 23.3% black according to a Wiki article. There are dozens of these small incorporated cities just in St. Louis County. ST. LOUIS CITY has their own grand jury system because they are wholly separate and not a part of ST. LOUIS COUNTY. Although there were a lot of references to the city of St. Louis, and Ferguson is adjacent to the St. Louis City limits, Ferguson is entirely within St. Louis County.

The Grand Jury was a ST. LOUIS COUNTY grand jury. As in many counties across the country, most major legal matters are handled at the county level, unless it's a larger city. Simple math - 3 black jurors out of 12 is, oh lets see, about 25%, which is pretty darn close to 23.3%.

Alright, then. Thanks for explaining. No need to be a sarcastic dingus about it.

 

[jwk]

That's just BS. One can enforce the law up to the point where one crosses the law. This killing was out of proportion with the initial offense (jaywalking). And I am pretty sure the situation escalated exactly because the police officer was inexperienced, and could not deal properly with another testosterone-filled young male. It takes two to tango. This was the equivalent of a bar fight, where one participant was young, stupid, strong, but unarmed, and the other was cocky, armed and picked the fight in the first place.

If this is his job, let me tell you that he sucks at it. If he's physically intimidated by big black males, maybe he should not be allowed to police such a neighborhood, especially on his own. Had it been a big black policeman, I bet that he would have projected more respect and fear.

Are you kidding me? Brown robs a convenience store - as the officer drives by Brown and his friend, he realizes that he matches the description of a robbery suspect that he heard a few minutes earlier. He attempts to detain him, Brown assaults him and attempts to flee, then charges at the officer, twice, and is shot. BTW - Wilson is not a rookie - he was on the Ferguson police force for six years.

You bring up the "initial offense" of jaywalking. Are you serious? Are you not paying attention? The initial offense was actually a strong-arm robbery, a felony. Had Brown and his accomplice been smart, they would have walked to the side of the street and perhaps not attracted quite as much attention to themselves.

 

[deleted171991]

Are you kidding me? Brown robs a convenience store - as the officer drives by Brown and his friend, he realizes that he matches the description of a robbery suspect that he heard a few minutes earlier. He attempts to detain him, Brown assaults him and attempts to flee, then charges at the officer, twice, and is shot. BTW - Wilson is not a rookie - he was on the Ferguson police force for six years.

I am not a rookie either, and I still wouldn't try wrestling shock due to trauma alone.

You bring up the "initial offense" of jaywalking. Are you serious? Are you not paying attention? The initial offense was actually a strong-arm robbery, a felony. Had Brown and his accomplice been smart, they would have walked to the side of the street and perhaps not attracted quite as much attention to themselves.

I am going to say it again: I don't buy the story with officer Wilson looking for the suspects from the convenience store robbery. Had that been the case, he would have approached them more cautiously and definitely not alone (they could have been armed).

 

[jwk]

I am not a rookie either, and I still don't try wrestling shock due to trauma alone.

I am going to say it again: I don't buy the story with Wilson looking for the suspects from the convenience store robbery. Had that been the case, he would have approached them more cautiously and definitely not alone (they could have been armed).

http://m.cnsnews.com/mrctv-blog/curtis-kalin/10-key-facts-ferguson-grand-jury-discovered

 

[JLM]

None of you have jobs where you have to worry about going home at night. Unless you have been victimized by these scum, you have no right to judge the officer's response as inappropriate.

 

[anbuitachi]

http://m.cnsnews.com/mrctv-blog/curtis-kalin/10-key-facts-ferguson-grand-jury-discovered

That is what I don't understand .. why is everyone protesting in multiple towns across the nation. I can understand some attention to the case, but riots?? Burning buildings and cars? really? Is there no law in this country..? Why wont people look at the evidence?

 

[deleted171991]

None of you have jobs where you have to worry about going home at night. Unless you have been victimized by these scum, you have no right to judge the officer's response as inappropriate.

I just always try to give the benefit of the doubt to David in front of Goliath. Especially when David ends up dead.

 

[deleted171991]

That is what I don't understand .. why is everyone protesting in multiple towns across the nation. I can understand some attention to the case, but riots?? Burning buildings and cars? really? Is there no law in this country..? Why wont people look at the evidence?

Because initially nobody from the police talked about the robbery, suggesting that it is a police afterthought. The initial story was about jaywalking, and only much later the police published the video capture from the store, and even then just to prove Michael Brown's character.

Had officer Wilson said publicly "I tried to arrest a robbery suspect and he became violent" from the beginning, on day 1, things wouldn't have escalated like this.

 

[anbuitachi]

Because initially nobody from the police talked about the robbery, suggesting that it is a police afterthought. The initial story was about jaywalking, and only much later the police published the video capture from the store, and even then just to prove Michael Brown's character.

Had officer Wilson said publicly "I tried to arrest a robbery suspect and he became violent" from the beginning, on day 1, things wouldn't have escalated like this.

no i meant the riots going on right now, after they released these info. before the decision was made, it was somewhat peaceful, at least compared to these couple of days. i guess people either haven't heard... (though i think if you are rioting about it, you should keep up to date), or they have heard and simply disregarded the evidence

 

[yappy]

Because your logic is American, and mine is foreign, and our life experience is also very much different. But that's OK.

You think that a lawman should never retreat, while I think that there are many ways to discipline a kid who's jaywalking, which include walking away from the situation. Why put a kid at risk, just because he has a big mouth and bad judgment (like many adolescent males)? Is jaywalking such a danger for society? It's a BS offense, it's kids being kids, like the one who just got killed for playing with a fake gun.

This was a situation created by the police officer, and that's just incredibly bad policing.

P.S. I don't buy the story with Wilson looking for the suspects from the convenience store robbery. Had that been the case, he would have approached them more cautiously and definitely not alone (they could have been armed).

There is only one kind of logic [formal].

What's interesting about your perspective is it places the actions of Brown on the Officer; where, in reality people exercise their own agency independent of others. Also, you make judgements based on a retrospective vantage point that is not possible with our uni-linear perception of time.

The premise of your arguement is that crime is acceptable in a society if the harm of enforcing the law may be greater than not enforcing law. This relies on a retrospective analysis to be effective and rewards people who break laws and react violently when stopped. I don't agree that satisfies the requirements for justice.

 

[jl lin]

We don't so much have a race problem in this country as we do a culture problem. That's what really needs to be addressed.

Maybe, but there is still a huge issue of bigotry--people just flying under the radar from a PC perspective. PC is BS too, b/c you have to dig deeper to really get down to rejection, lack of care, empathy, or even hate--and that goes for all people regardless of race or whatever. I was 100 feet and heard some ignorant man yell out at my friend as a stupid, F.ing n&ger, and she was doing absolutely nothing but making an appropriate left turn. She and other friends feel eyeballed everywhere they go, when they are in stores. It's unreal, and they feel dehumanized--and that is what happens when people aren't doing the work they need to do to see others as they see themselves--as people, human beings--men, women, children. I live in a very liberal area. If this kind of stuff happens here, well, it's happening pretty much everywhere still. It's just about people flying under the radar. And some folks are hyper-reactive--and a lot of that is indeed a mix of culture, nurture, and affects of bigotry. Try to understand it rather than react back at it is my POV.

Not saying the facts are against the police officer. I am not even denying that people have been riling other people up, and sometimes I think some of these folks that rile up others want a race war in this country.

Yes it's about cultural issues, race issues, a resentment issues--that go on both sides. And it's a disrespect issue that again goes on both sides. Finally, I believe it was also a drug issue. I don't think Michael Brown would have been so fired up to take on the cop if he wasn't already hopped up somehow. He was strong, and you get a strong person wound up on drugs, well, it can take a number of people to get the person settled down--and it can take a while.

My biggest thing, common sense-wise is why was the PO flying solo? It's a known troublesome area--history of such. Partner the police up sensibly for God's sake. At the end of the day, it probably comes down to budgetary concerns. I can be conservative, but some things shouldn't be cut too tight in the budget. You have to use your sense. And people want to know why police, black and white, don't rush to go into the inner city or black communities. The PO should have had a partner--not merely back-up on call. Remember those days when they partnered police??? Who is to say for sure, but perhaps a death and tragic disturbances could have been avoided if they had used sense over $$$, together with sound training.

As it stands, the PO and his wife won't be able to work or live around there anymore. They will have to move--and who knows. Maybe the man will have to change his name.
The Brown family lost their child, and it's too late to get him help now.
The country is already unstable, and it doesn't need this growing murmur of instability.
Our nation is being murdered from within. Now is the time for unity; but instead, there are forces that are working to kill any bridging of gaps and any real unity.