Financial benefit of USUHS/mil med or what??

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Re3iRtH

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Hello folks,

I was wondering if someone could help me out on an issue.
I have read people's suggestions on improving milmed by
paying military physicians the same salary they would recieve
in the civilian world. This sounds like an good but idealistic idea.

Anyhow, let's take a USUHS student's finances as compared to
going the civilian route.

1. USUHS: = +212k$ earned by USU grad during med school.

2. Loans for school: =
Most of the people I talked to that
have filled out financial aid are borrowing about 50k$/yr for all expenses
going to a civilian school. Since some of this money will go to room and
board, the USU student will use some of the above money
to cover that. So 40k$/yr. net spent on education only by civilian route
than the USU student.

Since many students will end up in primary care,
I cant assume here the student will be a spine / neurosurgeon so
interest will be had and will be payed.
40k$/yr. X 4 yrs 160k spent on education only.
Factoring in interest.. to be on the conservative side:
= +300k$ effectively saved by USU student on education only.

3. Residency =
I'm picking a 5yr radiology residency
because that what I'm interested in (5 yrs in both milmed and
civilian side) {Most residencies are 4 years and will make much
less than a radiologist as an attending}.

A civilian radiologist can expect to earn about 225k$
in those 5 years in residency. (this is done starting with a salary
of 40k as an intern (YEA RIGHT!!) and earning 2.5k$ more
each year thereafter.

A radiology resident in the military can expect to earn about
325k$ for the 5 years. (This is on avg. 65k$/yr. earned by mil
guy, being conservative again here, it should be closer to 69k$/yr.
making it closer to 345k$ {this mil guy will actually proportionally
get taxed less on his 345k$ than the civilian guy on his 225k$,
bringing up the difference even higher.}

= 100k$ more earned by USU student.
(Actually this number is closer to 125k-145k$ more, I'm not factoring
that the mil guy will get taxed less from his gross salary and will
probably make more than 65k$/yr. on average.)


My thought is, why should the USU milmed physician be getting
payed the same as the civilian (except that he
may be putting himself in harm's way) ...
if he is already 500k-1m$ ahead after completion of residency??

Thanks for reading.

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My understanding is that most of these pissed military docs aren't only ticked off because of the money issue (although as much as people say it isn't about the money it must play a huge factor). Your argument has some validity however its the old take 100 bucks a day for the rest of your life or take a penny a day and double it for the rest of your life. Milmed puts you ahead for the first 7-10 years but after that your civilian peers have the potential to blow you out of the water (which is why almost every mil. doc I know personally has taken any chance to moonlight).
 
You go to USUHS for 4 years. Your buddy goes to a civilian school. At graduation from medical school you have a zero balance or maybe in the black and your friend has $150k in debts. However your friend goes right into radiology. He quickly graduates and is making in the $200k range but he has a mortgage sized payment on his school loans.

Instead you do a 3 year GMO and you sweat every day praying that you will be picked up for radiology by the selection board. You get picked up and complete the additional 4 years of training. Now you've got a wife and kids.

Straight out of residency you have to complete a utilization tour since you have the least amount of seniority. This is the least desirable radiology staff billet in the Navy. The Navy decides to send you to Naval Hospital Smallville where you are the only radiologist on call 24-7 and your wife is unable to work or complete her education. Too make matters worse, your hospital decides to run your MRI scanner 24 hours a day because it is cheaper than having a patient to receive imaging out in town.

The hospital has a "building 18" style facility. You try to talk to your command about getting rid of the rats in the radiology suite but they just shrug their shoulders and say there is no funding and its not logistically possible.

Now you are counting the days down on your 4 year payback making the low $100s hoping that you retain your sanity.
 
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My thought is, why should the USU milmed physician be getting
payed the same as the civilian (except that he
may be putting himself in harm's way) ...
if he is already 500k-1m$ ahead after completion of residency??

Thanks for reading.

You are correct, he should NOT be getting anymore until after the educational "debt" is paid off. Let me give you a real example. After my "debt" is paid off, if I sign up for another year, I only get an $8000 raise, which is approximately $100K less than my colleagues are making. Even if I sign up for another 4 year commitment, that raise is only $33K per year.

BTW, the HPSP numbers don't look nearly as good as the USUHS numbers, and I think $1 million is a bit excessive.

One last thing, if we expect people to make the career sacrifices that being in the military requires, and we want good people, we shouldn't be trying to pay them what they can make in the civilian world, we should be paying them more.
 
Hello folks,

I was wondering if someone could help me out on an issue.
I have read people's suggestions on improving milmed by
paying military physicians the same salary they would recieve
in the civilian world. This sounds like an good but idealistic idea.

Anyhow, let's take a USUHS student's finances as compared to
going the civilian route.

1. USUHS: = +212k$ earned by USU grad during med school..
So that's 50 docs a year, what about the other ~250 that are HPSP?

2. Loans for school: =
Most of the people I talked to that
have filled out financial aid are borrowing about 50k$/yr for all expenses
going to a civilian school. Since some of this money will go to room and
board, the USU student will use some of the above money
to cover that. So 40k$/yr. net spent on education only by civilian route
than the USU student. .

The average total debt at my school is 125K. Yes it's a state school, but not everyone goes to expensive private schools
Since many students will end up in primary care,
I cant assume here the student will be a spine / neurosurgeon so
interest will be had and will be payed.
40k$/yr. X 4 yrs 160k spent on education only.
Factoring in interest.. to be on the conservative side:
= +300k$ effectively saved by USU student on education only.
.
Primary care is a 3 year residency
3. Residency =
I'm picking a 5yr radiology residency
because that what I'm interested in (5 yrs in both milmed and
civilian side) {Most residencies are 4 years and will make much
less than a radiologist as an attending}..
A civilian radiologist can expect to earn about 225k$
in those 5 years in residency. (this is done starting with a salary
of 40k as an intern (YEA RIGHT!!) and earning 2.5k$ more
each year thereafter.

NO, 40k is about average for an intern. no need for the yea right.

A radiology resident in the military can expect to earn about
325k$ for the 5 years. (This is on avg. 65k$/yr. earned by mil
guy, being conservative again here, it should be closer to 69k$/yr.
making it closer to 345k$ {this mil guy will actually proportionally
get taxed less on his 345k$ than the civilian guy on his 225k$,
bringing up the difference even higher.}

I'm assuming that's with Bethesda BAH. At san diego married pay =~66K/year and in Portsmouth is it's in the 50s.
= 100k$ more earned by USU student.
(Actually this number is closer to 125k-145k$ more, I'm not factoring
that the mil guy will get taxed less from his gross salary and will
probably make more than 65k$/yr. on average.)


My thought is, why should the USU milmed physician be getting
payed the same as the civilian (except that he
may be putting himself in harm's way) ...
if he is already 500k-1m$ ahead after completion of residency??

Thanks for reading.


There is something to be said for autonomy. I know USUHS students who didn't get peds spots and are stuck doing Lord knows what now. In the civilian world they could have scrambled into peds. How much do you think they would pay to be able to do the specialty of choice?

I'm not just trying to be annoying and pick apart details here. I'm not even bitter with milmed. I just feel like your analysis is flawed and doesn't really show tha whole glass - just the half of it that's full.
 
You go to USUHS for 4 years. Your buddy goes to a civilian school. At graduation from medical school you have a zero balance or maybe in the black and your friend has $150k in debts. However your friend goes right into radiology. He quickly graduates and is making in the $200k range but he has a mortgage sized payment on his school loans.

Instead you do a 3 year GMO and you sweat every day praying that you will be picked up for radiology by the selection board. You get picked up and complete the additional 4 years of training. Now you've got a wife and kids.

Straight out of residency you have to complete a utilization tour since you have the least amount of seniority. This is the least desirable radiology staff billet in the Navy. The Navy decides to send you to Naval Hospital Smallville where you are the only radiologist on call 24-7 and your wife is unable to work or complete her education. Too make matters worse, your hospital decides to run your MRI scanner 24 hours a day because it is cheaper than having a patient to receive imaging out in town.

The hospital has a "building 18" style facility. You try to talk to your command about getting rid of the rats in the radiology suite but they just shrug their shoulders and say there is no funding and its not logistically possible.

Now you are counting the days down on your 4 year payback making the low $100s hoping that you retain your sanity.

Wow.. just reading through my old posts on the mil med boards is pretty interesting and emotional for me. But I think its intriguing all the advice that I got on this board, many of it was very education but most of it did not recommend going into mil med. The scenario presented above sounds very ironic to me now that I read it as a 4th year mil medical student.

"Your buddy goes to a civilian school. At graduation from medical school you have a zero balance or maybe in the black and your friend has $150k in debts."

Wrong. Actually, without getting into specifics my debt is $0
and my balance is ++$xxx,xxx. And that's not living frugally thats going out 2-3X per week to the bars, bottles, etc. never trying to save $ etc.

"However your friend goes right into radiology. He quickly graduates and is making in the $200k range but he has a mortgage sized payment on his school loans. Instead you do a 3 year GMO and you sweat every day praying that you will be picked up for radiology by the selection board. "

Wrong, again. I did not get a GMO, and was able to get rads residency in a very desirable location, which I am not sure I would have gotten as a civilian student. (I'm not that smart). And I think the military trains very decent radiologists from shadowing both military and civilian.

I could have listened to this board, but instead I went with my gut. I cannot think of anything else I'd rather be doing now than military medicine. If given the choice, if I couldn't be a military physician I don't know if I would be a regular physician.

To everyone that is on the fence about military med, I would think about what you want, but as the posters on here mention be ready to be very flexible if needed. The military was very good to me and I couldn't as for anything else. Best decision I could have made.

P.S. Honestly if you joined the Navy you need to be prepared to do a GMO tour if you want to do rads, anesthesia, derm etc. Its not a secret and people shouldn't be dissing the military based on a concept that was known to you when you applied. Period. I came to the interview not knowing a darn thing about the various military services but once someone mentioned "GMO" in the Navy I did not choose it. I think a GMO is an amazing experience as long as you want to do it but it doesn't fit my personality.

P.P.S. Personally, redarding the scenario presented above, the civilian route, I would have to live cheaply and not live life to the fullest for 9 years (med school plus residency), then as a rads attending I can live it up but STILL have basically a 2nd mortgage just from med school debt. But the time you are a rads attending you are AT LEAST 30-31 years old anyway. Wouldn't you rather live it up during you 20s? And I can't picture a scenario when I'm gonna be a rads attending in the military making ONLY $150,000 with a house or 2 and $0 debt, but saying, "damn I wish I can make $350,000 right now." Maybe thats important to some people. I don't feel that I am entitled to that.
 
Wrong. Actually, without getting into specifics my debt is $0
and my balance is ++$xxx,xxx. And that's not living frugally thats going out 2-3X per week to the bars, bottles, etc. never trying to save $ etc.

We seem to be saying the same thing. I suggested you would either be in the black or have a zero loan balance.

Wrong, again. I did not get a GMO, and was able to get rads residency in a very desirable location, which I am not sure I would have gotten as a civilian student. (I'm not that smart). And I think the military trains very decent radiologists from shadowing both military and civilian.

Congrats for you. Are you Navy? Going straight into radiology without a GMO tour is unheard of from my perspective.

The next big decision point for you will be after your utilization tour. Do you take the multi-year special pay bonus or get out?
 
We seem to be saying the same thing. I suggested you would either be in the black or have a zero loan balance.



Congrats for you. Are you Navy? Going straight into radiology without a GMO tour is unheard of from my perspective.

The next big decision point for you will be after your utilization tour. Do you take the multi-year special pay bonus or get out?

Hey, quick response man. I haven't posted in this forum since '07 and you responded right to my post :)

No, I am Army. That's the point I was trying to make toward the last parts of my post, that I heard that Navy does GMO tours especially for competitive specialties during my interview and I opted not to join Navy. If someone is sweating durng their GMO about getting a rads slot why join the Navy in the first place? I find it hard to believe that those people never heard the word 'GMO' before they applied.

Its just amazing how much the anti mil med advice on here is plain wrong. Just one quick example, how people talk about higher ranking nurses giving **** to docs and getting away with it because of their rank. I can tell you I purposely visited military hospitals all around the US (Army, Navy, AF) during my entire 3rd year and first half of 4th, and I've never seen a nurse on any floor above the grade of an O-3 (I looked hard). Most military nurses seem to be enlisted LPNs passing through or RNs that leave after a few years.
 
Its just amazing how much the anti mil med advice on here is plain wrong. Just one quick example, how people talk about higher ranking nurses giving **** to docs and getting away with it because of their rank. I can tell you I purposely visited military hospitals all around the US (Army, Navy, AF) during my entire 3rd year and first half of 4th, and I've never seen a nurse on any floor above the grade of an O-3 (I looked hard). Most military nurses seem to be enlisted LPNs passing through or RNs that leave after a few years.

I like what you are saying but I'm cautiously optimistic. Check back in a few years and let us know what you think:)
 
Hey, quick response man. I haven't posted in this forum since '07 and you responded right to my post :)

No, I am Army. That's the point I was trying to make toward the last parts of my post, that I heard that Navy does GMO tours especially for competitive specialties during my interview and I opted not to join Navy. If someone is sweating durng their GMO about getting a rads slot why join the Navy in the first place? I find it hard to believe that those people never heard the word 'GMO' before they applied.

Its just amazing how much the anti mil med advice on here is plain wrong. Just one quick example, how people talk about higher ranking nurses giving **** to docs and getting away with it because of their rank. I can tell you I purposely visited military hospitals all around the US (Army, Navy, AF) during my entire 3rd year and first half of 4th, and I've never seen a nurse on any floor above the grade of an O-3 (I looked hard). Most military nurses seem to be enlisted LPNs passing through or RNs that leave after a few years.

If years on this forum have taught me anything, it's that experiences in military medicine vary tremendously based on service, location, and specialty.

I've often criticized posters for trying to generalize their bad experiences. Make sure that you don't do the opposite.

I, like you, got my residency of choice at a great location. Things didn't seem so bad. Now it's half a decade later. I've been denied my fellowship of choice (because staff almost always trump residents), and there's the very real possibility that I'll be practicing in an undesirable location that could result in significant atrophy of my skills.

I'm not complaining. This is what I signed up for, and - on the balance - my time in uniform will be a positive. Just keep in mind that things can and will change. Your priorities will most likely shift, and all of the benefits of the Army and HPSP could very well become little consolation.

Congratulations on your match. Keep your head down during internship and remember that they can't stop the clock. Better days are ahead.
 
P.P.S. Personally, redarding the scenario presented above, the civilian route, I would have to live cheaply and not live life to the fullest for 9 years (med school plus residency), then as a rads attending I can live it up but STILL have basically a 2nd mortgage just from med school debt. But the time you are a rads attending you are AT LEAST 30-31 years old anyway. Wouldn't you rather live it up during you 20s?
In fairness, people who say that tend to be in their 20s...

When all is said and done, HPSP can end up costing folks close to a million dollars for something high paying like rads. Even if you're obsessed with living the high life in medical school, you can take out private loans that will give you the same standard of living you had from the stipend and extra residency pay and STILL come out ahead after a few years of civilian practice.

Again, highly urge folks sit down with an Excel spreadsheet. HPSP pays for itself only for high-price medical schools and low-to-possibly low/mid-paying specialties, especially when you factor in a very-possible-to-likely GMO tour for anything above a low paying specialty for the Navy and AF folks.

Said by many, many people: do not take HPSP for the money. It's a nice incentive if you already have an interest in military service. It's not a reason to serve.
 
Its just amazing how much the anti mil med advice on here is plain wrong. Just one quick example, how people talk about higher ranking nurses giving **** to docs and getting away with it because of their rank. I can tell you I purposely visited military hospitals all around the US (Army, Navy, AF) during my entire 3rd year and first half of 4th, and I've never seen a nurse on any floor above the grade of an O-3 (I looked hard). Most military nurses seem to be enlisted LPNs passing through or RNs that leave after a few years.

Very glad that things have worked out well for you thus far. Please continue to let us know how things are going; it's good that the forum include representation from a variety of experiences so that those who are thinking about joining military medicine have more knowledge to draw from.

One caveat in the quote above: I cannot remember a bad experience with a military nurse with a rank of O-3 or below, nor can I remember a particularly negative story involving one on this forum. When a poster on this forum references a higher-ranking nurse causing administrative headaches, the story is typically referring to one of the rank of O-5 or above. Those ranks go hand in hand with jobs that are purely admin, and those who inhabit them typically have done little to no patient care for years.

Most nurses O-3 and below work on the floor and those are the ones you have met. They are quite good, but sometime after they achieve O-4 they, like most in the military, get sucked into more and more administrative tasks and leave the floor behind. Such a drastic change in job requirements, combined with the divorce from day-to-day work with patients and a promotion schedule that depends almost entirely upon flogging floor staff to reach certain metrics is what breeds the type of headache-inducing nurse/administrator we have been referring to. Given time and opportunity, you'll likely come across a few.
 
Its been awhile since the last post here but I'll give it a shot. I've been enlisted Army for 5 years now and I am wanting to go to medical school. I have looked at all of my options. I already have a AS I have thought about going green to gold and shooting for education hold to get into medical school and I have thought about getting out using my GI Bill to finish undergrad and either going to med school civilian route or USUHS military route. I know the pros and cons for each I am just on the fence and cant find the best route. (Don't want to regret it later in life) I ETS from the Army February 2017 so its just around the corner. Any ideas comments or concerns?
 
Its been awhile since the last post here but I'll give it a shot. I've been enlisted Army for 5 years now and I am wanting to go to medical school. I have looked at all of my options. I already have a AS I have thought about going green to gold and shooting for education hold to get into medical school and I have thought about getting out using my GI Bill to finish undergrad and either going to med school civilian route or USUHS military route. I know the pros and cons for each I am just on the fence and cant find the best route. (Don't want to regret it later in life) I ETS from the Army February 2017 so its just around the corner. Any ideas comments or concerns?
The Green to Gold path that involves USUHS carries a really, really long service commitment, on the order of a couple decades when all is said and done. I don't think any human should ever commit to working for any organization that long. Too many things in the world, including you, can change in too many ways over that much time.

And that's before any discussion of the actual pros/cons of military medical service.

If you want to be a doctor, I would serve your time, get out, and use your GI Bill benefits to finish your undergrad degree at a quality institution. Avoid debt as best you can by only considering public or Yellow Ribbon private schools, and then decide if you want to finance medical school with loans, HPSP, USUHS, or something else.
 
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pgg nailed it.

Get a degree from an established brick and mortar university. Get As. Pay for an mcat prep class. Consider holding your GI Bill back for med school and use Hazelwood (TX) or CALVET (CA) to finish undergrad. Hazelwood eligibility is being litigated at the moment.

Look hard at Texas.
 
very-possible-to-likely GMO tour for anything above a low paying specialty for the Navy and AF folks.

reviving this old thread I found in order to ask a question: If I am hypothetically a competitive USUHS Navy applicant and I want to apply for family medicine, is there a reasonable chance of going straight through to residency? I understand that If I choose Navy, then I am already realistically assuming a GMO after graduation, but still would like opinions. thanks!
 
HPSP Value=750k
Value of not being a firsthand witness to the shelling of Seoul: Priceless

When I was over there a couple years ago, my family was asking me if we were at war the way CNN was playing it up. They even had pulled the leave of the Republic of Korea soldiers that worked with us things were getting so heated. Nothing happened then. Of course, back then, we didn't have the tweeter-in-chief in office so I guess maybe my optimism is misplaced. When they start sending dependents back from Korea, that's when I would say things are actually getting serious.

Even with the craziness, I had a fun time in my year over there. Great country, great people.
 
When I was over there a couple years ago, my family was asking me if we were at war the way CNN was playing it up. They even had pulled the leave of the Republic of Korea soldiers that worked with us things were getting so heated. Nothing happened then. Of course, back then, we didn't have the tweeter-in-chief in office so I guess maybe my optimism is misplaced.

Even with the craziness, I had a fun time in my year over there. Great country, great people.
Oh, I hear SK is the best. I just think that it's going to get ugly with our current leadership. Really hoping Mattis can talk some sense into him.
 
reviving this old thread I found in order to ask a question: If I am hypothetically a competitive USUHS Navy applicant and I want to apply for family medicine, is there a reasonable chance of going straight through to residency? I understand that If I choose Navy, then I am already realistically assuming a GMO after graduation, but still would like opinions. thanks!

Odds of going straight through to FP in the Navy are very good.
 
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Oh, I hear SK is the best. I just think that it's going to get ugly with our current leadership. Really hoping Mattis can talk some sense into him.

Lots of hype, but until the military starts evacuating dependents it's really hard for me to believe that's it's any different than the crap in the past. Nobody really wants to fight. It's lose-lose on all sides.
 
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