Financial Issues of Vet School; Advice/Opinions?

[Jables11]

Hi guys,

This forum has been my homepage for about a year and half but have never posted anything (a little stalker-ish if you think about it since I kind of know most of you guys haha). But anyway, I've been aiming my life towards vet school, taking all necessary classes and pounding those books. However, I'm starting to have doubts about whether I should even apply, not because I'm reconsidering my career choice, but the harsh financial reality is starting to become real to me. I have one more year of undergrad to go, and I expected I will graduate with about 45,000 in debt. And on top of that, my state vet school is Tufts, so I would have to shell out around 50,000 a year for that. This seems impossible to me. How do you finance this? Do you have to take out private loans, or do you generally get enough government sub/unsub loans to pay for it? The financial aid page on Tufts doesnt really explain things very well. Also, am I missing something, or do the states that Tufts have contract with have a lower tuition than massachusetts residents since they contribute 12,000 to a student from their state's tuition?

Another question I have been looking for an answer to is whether it would be best to enter vet school as soon as I can, so I still have a full bucket of undergrad debt so maybe this would maximize my financial aid in vet school? Or should I work a few years to pay off at least a good portion of my undergrad debt before applying to vet school? I'm a 21 year old guy, so youth is kind of working against me here. I don't really know that much in the financial area of things, but I have seen a lot of knowledgeable financial advice given out on this forum, especially from the older members on here. Any help with this jumble of questions would be greatttttlllyyy appreciated.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Jables11]

oof, my bad. Should have reread this before posting. To clarify, that weird jumble of words at the end of the first paragraph is trying to ask if students that go to Tufts from the states that Tufts has contracts with pay a lower tuition than MA residents since their state (the contracted state) contributes 12,000 to their tuition to Tufts.

 

[HandD42]

There are many people who are more qualified to answer this then me but I will give it a shot. I know this is one of the questions I struggled the MOST with when deciding if I should try for a DVM program or not.

Basically the only person who can decide if vet school is the right decision financially is you. The best thing to do is run the numbers, figure out tuition costs per year, factor in the interest rate and really see what those numbers mean over 10 years when you are making monthly payments. Also compare them with what a typical graduate earns in whatever division of vet med you want to go into.

I think someone earlier this year posted a great loan calculator that lets you put in amounts and calculates what your monthly payment will be. If anyone has that link then post it.

The simple fact is that it is a ton of debt and vet salaries in most fields are on the low end for this high of a debt ratio (esp compared to the human medical field).

For some people this debt is fairly meaningless because they only have one life dream and that is to be a vet. For someone who has other life dreams (having lots of kids and paying for their college or owning a large home) in addition to being a vet this debt load raises serious concerns.

I'm not sure there is one right answer, there is just the reality of what you can or cannot live with.

As for working and paying some debt off first again, there may be no right answer. I have worked for 6 years but it has been at very low paying jobs and have struggled to make much of a dent in my undergrad loans. In addition going back to school to finish pre-reqs has meant my loans had to go back into deferment so I could pay the tuition (there is no financial assistance when you are not a degree seeking student). So I have not had much financial benefit to working out of school. Now I did gain a lot in life experience and maturity by working so there you go.

I have heard of others on this forum that found amazing, high paying jobs out of college which put them into the position of saving a large amount of money to go back to school/paying off all pre-existing debt. So again, it depends on the person and circumstance your find yourself in.

Hope this monologue helps a little.

 

[variegata]

There are cheaper schools than Tufts though, you just have to look around. Tufts is private, so I'm pretty sure everyone's tuition is the same regardless of residency. As a result, your OOS tuition at other schools could be cheaper (though still no walk in the park). You could look at Wisconsin, which is a bit of an anomaly. Their OOS tuition is actually comparable to tuition at my IS school. Tuition itself is around $25k, not including books, room and board, etc.

 

[DVMDream]

I think HandD said just about everything I was going to say. I am in the same boat as you: I graduate from undergrad in May, I will have around 50K in student debt already, and I will hopefully being going to vet school in August. I am also OOS everywhere (AZ; Wiche did not work for me) so I have to pay the high tuition rates. At this point I am starting to worry about the debt and how it will all work out, but then I have to remember that other people have done this. Other people have taken on the same amount of debt, graduated, and gone on to be vets and live somewhat decent lives. So am I scared of the debt: yes but it is because I am unsure of how it will all work out in the end. My plan is to consolidate all of my student loans into one or two loans once I am out of school. It will be much easier to keep track of the loans and keep payments current.

I would definitely do what HandD said. Crunch some numbers and see if you feel like you can manage the debt. For me: I really, really want to do this and I know that I will be able to manage my debt fairly well and I know I can live frugally for a few years if I need to (I have been doing it my entire life so it will not be anything new to me.)

Hopefully this helps a little.

 

[moosenanny]

This has been mentioned in other posts before, but some schools allow OOS students to become residents (and thus pay IS tuition) after the first year. I know Mizzou in particular does this, and people say it is really easy to achieve residency. So, there are other cheaper options than Tufts for sure! Look into those schools and make sure you're fulfilling their requirements . . .

 

[GellaBella]

Hi guys,

This forum has been my homepage for about a year and half but have never posted anything (a little stalker-ish if you think about it since I kind of know most of you guys haha). But anyway, I've been aiming my life towards vet school, taking all necessary classes and pounding those books. However, I'm starting to have doubts about whether I should even apply, not because I'm reconsidering my career choice, but the harsh financial reality is starting to become real to me. I have one more year of undergrad to go, and I expected I will graduate with about 45,000 in debt. And on top of that, my state vet school is Tufts, so I would have to shell out around 50,000 a year for that. This seems impossible to me. How do you finance this? Do you have to take out private loans, or do you generally get enough government sub/unsub loans to pay for it? The financial aid page on Tufts doesnt really explain things very well. Also, am I missing something, or do the states that Tufts have contract with have a lower tuition than massachusetts residents since they contribute 12,000 to a student from their state's tuition?

Another question I have been looking for an answer to is whether it would be best to enter vet school as soon as I can, so I still have a full bucket of undergrad debt so maybe this would maximize my financial aid in vet school? Or should I work a few years to pay off at least a good portion of my undergrad debt before applying to vet school? I'm a 21 year old guy, so youth is kind of working against me here. I don't really know that much in the financial area of things, but I have seen a lot of knowledgeable financial advice given out on this forum, especially from the older members on here. Any help with this jumble of questions would be greatttttlllyyy appreciated.

Like others said, only you can decide whether the financial aspect of vet school is something you can deal with. I have student loans from undergrad and some from graduate school as well leaving me with about $100k worth of debt.

I'm also in state for MA but have decided to go to Penn for vet school since my fiance has the best opportunities for work in and around philly. So I am definitely feeling the huge amount of debt that will be on my shoulders post-vet med. It is something I'm not happy about, but I have researched different options for loan repayment/forgiveness which is the route I think I will definitely take. This eases my mind somewhat but even with that I will still have a large amount of debt.

As for your question about the contract states with Tufts, the way you read/understood it is correct. There are students from other states that will pay less than an in-state MA resident going to tufts due to the amount their states pay for their tuition.

Also, FYI according to the tufts financial aid talk during interviews this year, it is most likely that there will be no discount for instate students due to the financial crisis in MA. so MA students will be paying the same tuition as out of state students. now because tufts is a private school they do have some scholorships, grants etc that they can hand out themselves. but it is still expensive.

I think if you dont have anyone else to worry about (fiance etc) then moving to a state that has cheap instate tuition to gain residency is an excellent way to go. Also like others said there are schools that allow you to be out of state for the first year and then change to instate the next three years (NCSU comes to mind). then there are schools where you are out of state and thats just that even if you become a resident (CSU, ufl, and others).

its def daunting BUT you're 21. That is YOUNG. You have time on your side and thats awesome. I wish I was 21 again!

good luck

 

[katydid628]

I do not have much to add, as I am in a similar boat (trying to figure out if I should take out double the loans and go to Dublin which would be amazing, or reapply next year and hope for a cheaper school) but I did find a nifty loan calculator! It tells you exactly how long it will take to pay off and you can put in loan amount, interest rate, and monthly payment. It's awesome!!!

http://www.money-zine.com/Calculators/Loan-Calculators/Student-Loan-Payoff-Calculator/

Hope this helps!

 

[sumstorm]

a couple of things;

generally, for the most part federal loans will cover most or all of your costs if you live modestly.

if you are sure you want to go into vet med, Iwould not delay entry to pay off student loans. The reason is that the cost of the delay in terms of lost income > the cost of carrying the loans. The exception is if you will graduate in a highly lucrative field now. The second reason not to do this is because returning to school can be very difficult; your knowledge base and study skills can become outdated in a handful of years, and this will make you ineligible for some schools. Also, the longer you are out, the harder it can to return to the realitiy of academia, the more obligations you may have, and the rustier everything is.

I have suggeste this several times on the boards; consider applying to schools that allow OOS to become IS, and if you do not gain admissions, relocate.

You are the only one who knows if it is worth it.

 

[Nautie]

I'm also in state for MA but have decided to go to Penn for vet school since my fiance has the best opportunities for work in and around philly. So I am definitely feeling the huge amount of debt that will be on my shoulders post-vet med. It is something I'm not happy about, but I have researched different options for loan repayment/forgiveness which is the route I think I will definitely take. This eases my mind somewhat but even with that I will still have a large amount of debt.

good luck

Hey GellaBella, would you mind posting some links that you found helpful when researching repayment/forgiveness programs?

 

[StartingoverVet]

Just to shine a harsh, realistic light on this conversation:

Financially (and that is my background by the way), vet school is a non-starter. There is absolutely no way a person would normally rationally choose to go to vet school to maximize their income. You have to expect that you are going to be in a very difficult situation financially for several years post-grad if you go to a school like Tufts. The smart choice is to go to a different type of professional school or start some other career (or find lower alternatives as some have suggested). Starting salaries for vets are generally not much different than starting salaries of people with bachelors degrees only.

Your longer term earnings potential will be slightly higher but after figuring in the cost of education and debt load then you are not likely to be rewarded for the extra cost involved or the delay of earnings for 4-7 years. (Some of the numbers used for these analyses are skewed because of the larger number of people who drop out of the profession).

So my point is it is important to be realistic and understand if you choose this profession it is not a practical financial decision. It is not impossible but it will definitely be a burden for a number of years.

Having said that, you have to decide if that is a sacrifice you are willing to make. Clearly a lot of people are (and some probably just haven't really thought it through to be honest). Personally I have made that irrational decision to proceed with full knowledge.

I think it is commendable that you are thinking about this now, and not just pursuing your dream with your head in the sand. No one can really answer this except you. Good luck with your decision.

 

[GellaBella]

Hey GellaBella, would you mind posting some links that you found helpful when researching repayment/forgiveness programs?

Hey there! They're not so much websites as what I am interested in doing. For me I will probably be doing research with my degree. There are many loan repayment options for people who are going into basic science research since the govt is interested in increasing the numbers of ppl doing research. From what I have seen the govt is willing to pay $35k/yr for student loans in exchange for participation in research.

For those of you interested in actual clinical vet med an option I have looked at is www.usajobs.com (search for veterinarian) basically you become a civilian vet for the us armed forces. You can live in the USA or abroad on military bases treating peoples and military animals. They also have loan repayment of upto $35k/yr of course this requires you to be flexible with location and interested in that type of vet med.

To me these are both great options and if I can get $70-95k worth of loans repaid for a few years service I am def down with that. Everyone has to decide what's best for them though

For those of you who

 

[sumstorm]

Just to shine a harsh, realistic light on this conversation:

Financially (and that is my background by the way), vet school is a non-starter. There is absolutely no way a person would normally rationally choose to go to vet school to maximize their income. You have to expect that you are going to be in a very difficult situation financially for several years post-grad if you go to a school like Tufts. The smart choice is to go to a different type of professional school or start some other career (or find lower alternatives as some have suggested). Starting salaries for vets are generally not much different than starting salaries of people with bachelors degrees only.

Your longer term earnings potential will be slightly higher but after figuring in the cost of education and debt load then you are not likely to be rewarded for the extra cost involved or the delay of earnings for 4-7 years. (Some of the numbers used for these analyses are skewed because of the larger number of people who drop out of the profession).

Can you shed some light on how you come to these conclusions? I agree that if you want to maximize earnings, this in't the path. That is hugely different than being a 'non-starter' or earning the same as one would with a bachelors degree only. I have worked for the past decade on a bachelor's degree only, and the only way I will earn the same coming out of vet school as I did with my bachelors is if I go straight into internship/residency. I MAY make as little as I did at the end of my career. In my field, a masters was the minimum I needed to earn as much as lower pay entry level DVM.


Also, there is a $ range of tuition that factors in. We may not make bank but we can make enough to live reasonably.

 

[StartingoverVet]

from 2003 (last government data I have seen).

median salary for a worker with a bachelor's degree: 52,200

median salary for a veterinarian: 72,208

Without going into the math, that extra 20k has to pay anywhere from between 150-250k in additional debt and has to cover the 4 years (minimum) delayed start to work which puts you roughly 400k behind.

That means 20 years of work to break even if there was no time value to money. Discounting the larger earnings in the future to present dollars in most interest rate scenarios shows a lifetime of work to recoup the investment.

As for debt load, look at repayment schedules. You could be paying 2000-3000 a month after graduation. That is a large part (if not all) of disposable income at many entry level positions.

Of course there are wide variations dependent on your undergraduate major, school, alternate profession, cost of vet school, ultimate success in salary etc but the numbers are still pretty daunting.

I thought GellaBella had some good suggestions for ways to lower the burden but many people are going to leave school in the "typical" situation.

 

[DVMDream]

from 2003 (last government data I have seen).

median salary for a worker with a bachelor's degree: 52,200

median salary for a veterinarian: 72,208

Sweet! I thought the median salary for a vet was only around 60K. That is about 10K more than I expected.

I think the point here is that no one should go into vet school and expect to come out of vet school living like an MD. It is not possible. I think the bottom line is the debt is manageable with a good head, a little common sense (like actually pay the loans do not try to ignore them like what that MD with the 500K of debt did), and knowing that you have to live REASONABLY then you should be ok with the debt. But, if anyone has the expectation that when they get out of vet school they will be able to buy an expensive car, a nice big house, and vacation to some foreign venue every summer then they should probably re-think what they are doing. There are many vets out there who have obtained just as much debt as we are going to and for the most part they seem to be doing ok. I have worked with a recent graduate (within the last 3 years) and she is doing just fine with paying off loans. So, just be smart and manage your budget when you get out of vet school and you will do just fine.

 

[Electrophile]

Sweet! I thought the median salary for a vet was only around 60K. That is about 10K more than I expected.

The average newly graduated vet makes 60K.

 

[DVMDream]

The average newly graduated vet makes 60K.

Thanks I knew I heard that number somewhere I was just not sure exactly where or what for.

 

[lazyjayn]

longish

You also need to think about how you deal with debt. Frankly, it freaks me out. And by freaks me out what i really mean is that I shut down mentally, all i can think about is how much I owe, how i'm going to pay it back, and how much I'll need to make just to break even each month ($1600 right now, but most of my loans are still in deferral).

I admit I'm a bit extreme here, and the circumstances leading to my (might as well call it a) meltdown are ones that probably wouldn't happen at a US school, but you need know how you deal with financial uncertainty. And I don't mean the "do I have enough left for starbucks this week" kind, but rather "will I have to sell (plasma/ a kidney) to (pay the rent/ buy ramen) this month".

'cause at some point you'll owe enough that you could'a bought a small house or a really nice car and you still won't have a degree yet. And every dollar you don't borrow, every dollar you save beforehand, every dollar you don't spend- that's one you don't have to pay back.

So, how comfortable are you with owing a huge pile of money to banks? Or rather, how comfortable are you with owing a huge pile of money that *cannot* be gotten rid of in bankruptcy. much like the others said- find a cheaper school, become in state there, or apply to schools that let you become instate after first year.

And between now and whenever you get in? Save your pennies, work your tail off, and get yourself the biggest dragon-style horde of cash you can manage. You'll thank yourself later.

-j.

 

[scb44f]

The average newly graduated vet makes 60K.

This makes me so hesitant... The average starting salary is higher for my undergrad degree than for my hopeful professional degree.

But yes, like others have said, it's not a totally unbearable amount of debt. How I look at it: I'll live through it, but it will be a bumpy road for a while. I agree with DVMDream as well, in that having a reasonable expectation for the future is key.

ETA: I'm a bit of a stickler when it comes to money. My biggest fear is to have financial troubles. I'm pretty sure that if I didn't have the support network I do, I wouldn't be going for my dream.

 

[Allthingsequine]

There are also some loan repayment programs available for food animal veterinarians, if that's what you're interested in. AVMA has them listed by state here:
http://www.avma.org/advocacy/state/loan_repayment_programs/default.asp

 

[DVMDream]

longish

And I don't mean the "do I have enough left for starbucks this week" kind, but rather "will I have to sell (plasma/ a kidney) to (pay the rent/ buy ramen) this month".
-j.

Actually, I have thought about donating plasma for a little extra cash, but they need to see your SS card and for some reason I have misplaced mine...GREAT! So I have to order a new one before I can do that. The only thing I will not do is sell my eggs: those are kind of special to me. But you could also be a surrogate and make a decent amount of $ that way (I would not do that just to make $). But I do plan on donating plasma in the near future so I can get a little extra $, every little bit helps.

 

[Vet Engineer]

I can relate to those of you who are overly concerned/freakish about money. I interviewed at Tufts and went to their financial aid info session which was ridiculously depressing. If you're a MA resident, I would consider what people previously mentioned in addition to looking at relocating. I know some schools only require that you live/pay taxes in state for one year prior to applying.

Bottom line for me was I could use my BS in Mechanical Engineering to make boatloads of money and hate myself for it, or I could pursue my true passion and become a veterinarian with some substantial debt. The cost is daunting, but after seeing family members choose careers based solely on income and ending up miserable, I have no doubt in my mind that I made the right choice.

 

[sumstorm]

median salary for a worker with a bachelor's degree: 52,200

on average, for all majors, real earnings (in 2003 dollars) increased from $30,800 1 year after graduation to $60,600 10 years after graduation. Earnings, however, varied by major. -OOH

"Those working full time in engineering earned the highest average monthly pay ($4,680), while those with education degrees earned the lowest ($2,802) in 2006."-burleson consulting (ie annual avg $30,624-$56,160

The survey found that adults 18 and older with a bachelor's degree earned an average of $51,554 in 2004-CNN 10-26-2006

Overall, the average salary offered to 2010 graduates is $48,351-CNBC.com

In 2007, the median earnings of adults with a bachelor's degree were $45,000-ies national center for education statistics

median salary for a veterinarian: 72,208

Median annual wages of veterinarians were $79,050 in May 2008. The middle 50 percent earned between $61,370 and $104,110. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $46,610, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $143,660. -OOH

According the the AVMA the average starting salary for vets not pursueing higher education (internship/residency) = $64,826 in 2009.

From a Cornell pre-vet newsletter: in 2002 the average income for all veterinarians is $84,000 per year.

NY times, 6-9-2002: "But veterinarians now average $70,000 to $80,000 a year"

AVMA income trends: The mean income of private practitioners rose from $105,510 in 2005 to $115,447 in 2007....Veterinarians in industry earned the highest mean income, $165,668, while veterinarians in the uniformed services earned the lowest, $87,393.

Without going into the math, that extra 20k has to pay anywhere from between 150-250k in additional debt and has to cover the 4 years (minimum) delayed start to work which puts you roughly 400k behind.

That means 20 years of work to break even if there was no time value to money. Discounting the larger earnings in the future to present dollars in most interest rate scenarios shows a lifetime of work to recoup the investment.

My total debt, maxing out COA, is $119k (that is using all maxes, including childcare inclusion.)

For a 10 yr pay back, a montly payment of ~$ 1,500 with total repayment of $179,350

For a 30yr pay mack, a monthly payment of ~$ 940 with total repayment of $338,500

I plan on a ten year plan, for obvious reasons. That is ~$18k a year. Even with $65k, my take home will still be $47k vs $48k for new bachelors. A decade later, I will have $0 to loans and $79k income while the 10 yr average bachelors degree holder will earn ~$61k. For me, expecting to work 25yrs+, the difference will be $450k with a loss of $200k, assuming I don’t work at all for the entire 4 years. That doesn’t even calculate in part time and time loss (ie those numbers tell us nothing about FT vs PT in vet med or other fields, but we know PT employment is increasing in the vet field, with more time taken off for childbirth/early raising due to increases of women in the field that take off for that (read that in an AVMA article this past year, can’t provide a citation.) If I don’t go into zoo med (lower pay) I plan on owning my own business, which will increase earnings.

I am not trying to debate the value; I am pointing out that it is feasable to go into vet med that do not include financial ruin. It is a highly variable and very dependent on the individual and their life circumstances. If I had the decade, I worked before vet med to add into that income, I would make another $180k. That is assuming no specialty, no ownership, no industrial work, no consulting work. In my field of work, I maxed out at $52k…to go up I needed a master’s minimum (2 yrs off.) that is also assuming the vet shortage doesn’t increase income. I know students who have $0 debt…and I know bachelor holders with over $100k already. The costs of vet med are very different for those individuals.

 

[WIDVM]

While vet school seems like a lot, when I researched other advanced degrees (nurse practitioner and public health PhD) I found that the education costs weren't that much cheaper, and in some cases more. maybe it's because of the schools I looked at or because my IS ( UW-Madison) is fairly cheap to being with, at least as far as vet schools are concerned.

A friend of mine is a partner in her own practice and she said that while her loans may seem like a lot, without them she would have the income that she does, especially if she'd have stopped at a BA.

As far as MD's go, they may make more eventually, but the start out making nothing and their loans make ours seem like pocket change. A friend of mine was working his residency, owed a few hundred thousand and was making 40g. Plus their insurance cost are nuts. Our neighbor's father is a specialist and he advised her not to become an MD because it wasn't financially worthwhile for new grads.

These are the little reminders I tell myself whenever I get cold feet about the cost. Not to mention I'd rather pay more/earn less and be happy.

 

[livvie]

Someone already mentioned this, but I'm going to second it - your in-state school is not always your cheapest bet. I found two out of state schools that are cheaper than my in-state school (it does involve establishing residence once you move there). And public schools are usually cheaper than private. (Private schools: Tufts, Penn, Cornell-maybe?, Western, Tuskegee?)

 

[crittergal]

And public schools are usually cheaper than private. (Private schools: Tufts, Penn, Cornell-maybe?, Western, Tuskegee?)

The *usually* portion is correct. For example, Tuskegee's OOS tuition is ~$28K annually whereas KSU OOS is ~$40K. The former is private and the latter is public. However, I think this might be the only exception to the private schools are more costly argument. I'll be thrilled if I have the opportunity to go there considering the OOS tuition at many public institutions is pushing mid $30,000 to $40,000.

 

[Jables11]

Thanks all, I love how supportive this community is... got a really good thing going. So after reading all of this thread, I spent about 2 hours researching other careers I could go into with a b.s. in bio. After wallowing in my failed life path for a while, I kind of decided to say f it and go for it anyway. I have the grades... but I have close to nil experience (not because I haven't tried, but I have not been able to find a summer job that would provide experience AND a wage). So if anyone wants to throw me some advice on how to gain experience but still pay my car insurance/books, that would also be greatly appreciated.

 

[lazyjayn]

get an unrelated job that pays well and volunteer all over the place?
Work nights somewhere to pay bills and "shadow" at your family vet?
tutor for money and volunteer @ the animal shelter?
get any and every job you can find, and start/ hire on with a local pet sitting/ dog walking co for contacts?
Work doing something else to pay the bills and get a kennel job?

Basically start with any job (in any field) that pays at least enough to cover your bills, then fill in with experience stuff, which can be tougher to find. Work toward getting paid for your experience if you want, or just keep it as volunteer if you want more flexibility/ variety.

Oh, and network. Maybe someone you know knows someone who does something you'd be interested in learning more about, or knows of a paid opportunity...

but that may just be charleston talking...

-j.

 

[HandD42]

from 2003 (last government data I have seen).

median salary for a worker with a bachelor's degree: 52,200

median salary for a veterinarian: 72,208

Without going into the math, that extra 20k has to pay anywhere from between 150-250k in additional debt and has to cover the 4 years (minimum) delayed start to work which puts you roughly 400k behind.

I also think you need to be really careful when looking at and thinking about medians.

I also assumed I would make 40-50k after my bachelors degree and that was no where near reality. I struggle to make much more then half of that figure with a BA in biology. Yes, partly that is the economy and partly it is where I live (midwest) but to be honest if I wanted to make closer to even the median bachelors range I had to be willing to go back to school in something.

So for me, taking on an additional debt load was the only way I could ever reach salary earning potential above $40k.

Sad but true.

 

[BlacKAT33]

I also think you need to be really careful when looking at and thinking about medians.

I also assumed I would make 40-50k after my bachelors degree and that was no where near reality. I struggle to make much more then half of that figure with a BA in biology. Yes, partly that is the economy and partly it is where I live (midwest) but to be honest if I wanted to make closer to even the median bachelors range I had to be willing to go back to school in something.

So for me, taking on an additional debt load was the only way I could ever reach salary earning potential above $40k.

Sad but true.

it is sad. my friends who graduated with a bio B.S. degree were happy this year when they got a raise to 40k. jeez so sad. out of a huge circle of guys the only person who has been able to go above and beyond 40k is my bf and that is because 1) he started working there first 2) hes darn good at his job and he's not afraid to ask for a raise or threaten to leave to get it. isnt that ridiculous that it comes down to having to threaten to leave the company to get paid a DECENT amt lol and i'm assuming if he wasn't that valuable the company would have just been like w/e leave lol. he's still looking for a better job but at least they keep giving him what he fights for each year. it wont last long though...and he's planning on getting his MBA soon

 

[mas185]

As far as the comparisons between Vets and MDs, vets are WAY better off. It's nearly impossible to make any money in the medical field these days (my mother is a nurse practitioner who makes more than twice what starting docs do and doesn't have to pay the insurance premiums etc.) so unless you want to be a surgeon there's no reason to go to medical school (and their loans are much worse than ours!).

I would recommend applying straight out of school. I work at Tufts and got a MA residency hoping to only pay $35k a year for school but because of the financial crisis MA residents don't get a break anymore on the $50k tuition, so definitely look at applying to some of the more affordable out-of-state schools (the head vet of Tufts ER-ICU told me not to even bother applying to Tufts and go somewhere in the mid-west where its affordable and the cost of living is so much cheaper). Don't get me wrong, I love Tufts I would have gone there if I'd gotten accepted but you have to be willing to make the sacrifice $$ wise.

I definitely do not recommend taking time off and working especially since you have undergrad loans too (like me). My plan is to go to school and when I'm done go work in research for as long as I can stand it because with my engineering background I can make $100k+ when I graduate. Don't get too discouraged by the finances of it all ... you have to remember pretty much everyone else is in the same boat as you and it works out in the end.

 

[DVMDream]

so unless you want to be a surgeon there's no reason to go to medical school (and their loans are much worse than ours!).

Medical school loans are basically the same as vet school loans. Considering tuition is close to the same price as vet school tuition.

Here is a report on medical school tuition from the AAMC:
https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/report.cfm?select_control=PUB&year_of_study=2010

Granted MD's have to do residencies right out of school and are only making around 45K-50K during this time once they are done with that they easily make greater than 100k per year compared to vets only making 60-65K per year. They easily make more many than vets do once out of school and residency.

Here are some links to salaries depending upon what field the MD works in:

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Degree=Doctor_of_Medicine_(MD)/Salary

This one is a few years old but breaks it down fairly well:

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm

An MD spends about just as much going to school as a vet but easily makes 1.5x as much once out of school. The only added expense they have is malpractice insurance which I understand can be quite high. But most of the MD's I have met do not seem to be struggling by any means.

 

[sumstorm]

I also assumed I would make 40-50k after my bachelors degree and that was no where near reality. I struggle to make much more then half of that figure with a BA in biology. Yes, partly that is the economy and partly it is where I live (midwest) but to be honest if I wanted to make closer to even the median bachelors range I had to be willing to go back to school in something.

Yeah, that was part of the reason I posted all the different stats...it varies greatly. I peaked out in zoo curator positions for my age/experience level at $48k + nice benefits. My next career = $60k + BUT I worked in extremly dangerous conditions, 20 hours on, 4 off, for 2-4wks at a time, with 3d-10d between assignments. That made the numbers for vet med look good, especially if I own a clinic.

 

[sumstorm]

An MD spends about just as much going to school as a vet but easily makes 1.5x as much once out of school. The only added expense they have is malpractice insurance which I understand can be quite high. But most of the MD's I have met do not seem to be struggling by any means.

Most of my college friends are MD's...and all are clearing at least $100k after tax and insurance. some significantly more because the also consult, write, and are associated with hospitals that cover PLIT.

 

[Tobysgirl81]

Just something to think about - the best thing you can do is live like a student for a few years out of vet school, and work on paying off your loans. Yes, its scary. But if you buy a house, you're going to owe a butt ton of money over 60 years. If you buy a car you owe a butt ton of money over 5 years. No matter what, you owe a butt ton of money.

Don't focus on the total amount. Just focus on what you can pay on a regular basis. Say you make $60,000 a year. If you budget out $35,000 a year to live on you can pay $25,000 a year on your loans and be out from under your student loans in 5 or so years. Does that suck? Sure. But a lot of students escalate their outgoing with their income directly out of school, meaning they can never pay more than their minimum. If you take the time to budget and live frugally for a while you can really make your life a lot simpler!

 

[cowgirla]

Just something to think about - the best thing you can do is live like a student for a few years out of vet school, and work on paying off your loans. Yes, its scary. But if you buy a house, you're going to owe a butt ton of money over 60 years. If you buy a car you owe a butt ton of money over 5 years. No matter what, you owe a butt ton of money.

Don't focus on the total amount. Just focus on what you can pay on a regular basis. Say you make $60,000 a year. If you budget out $35,000 a year to live on you can pay $25,000 a year on your loans and be out from under your student loans in 5 or so years. Does that suck? Sure. But a lot of students escalate their outgoing with their income directly out of school, meaning they can never pay more than their minimum. If you take the time to budget and live frugally for a while you can really make your life a lot simpler!

AKA: Don't be like my boss and buy: A 3-5 doctor practice with clinic and barn, a digital ultrasound, digital xray, endoscopy, add a "dental wing" to the hospital, a house, a volvo, and two new horses + trailer and truck for haulting, both horses in professional training, all within ten years of graduation from one of the pricier schools.

And she wonders why some people have no sympathy when she whines about her loan payments?


On the contrary, another vet I know is two years out of school. She works off her rent of a small 1 bdrm apartment by working on the farm and taking care of the animals. She has a "new" car, but its nothing fancy. She's doing really well paying off her loans, and is hoping to have a big chunk of them gone in the next few years.

 

[david594]

AKA: Don't be like my boss and buy: A 3-5 doctor practice with clinic and barn, a digital ultrasound, digital xray, endoscopy, add a "dental wing" to the hospital, a house, a volvo, and two new horses + trailer and truck for haulting, both horses in professional training, all within ten years of graduation from one of the pricier schools.

And she wonders why some people have no sympathy when she whines about her loan payments?


On the contrary, another vet I know is two years out of school. She works off her rent of a small 1 bdrm apartment by working on the farm and taking care of the animals. She has a "new" car, but its nothing fancy. She's doing really well paying off her loans, and is hoping to have a big chunk of them gone in the next few years.

Why? Assuming the clinic the first vet bought was profitable(and your not going to get a loan to buy a clinic that isn't) they are probably doing way better than the second vet. Just because someone complains a lot about their loans doesn't mean they are doing bad off. The person that bought the 3-5 doctor clinic is probably accumulating a lot more equity on their clinic than they are paying in loans each year and possibly more than vet #2 makes in a year. And this is on top of the fact that the first vet is probably making close to double that the second vet is in salary each year.

 

[alliecat44]

Don't focus on the total amount. Just focus on what you can pay on a regular basis. Say you make $60,000 a year. If you budget out $35,000 a year to live on you can pay $25,000 a year on your loans and be out from under your student loans in 5 or so years.

While I firmly believe in living like a student after you graduate in order to make the most headway on your loans, this figure is unrealistic as it does not take into account taxes. Even at only 25% of your income, that leaves you with $45,000 to live on for the year--then subtract rent, health insurance, etc etc etc and see how much you have left over to pay your student loans. It's a lot less than $25,000...and it will take you a lot longer to pay off $150,000.

 

[sumstorm]

Why? Assuming the clinic the first vet bought was profitable(and your not going to get a loan to buy a clinic that isn't) they are probably doing way better than the second vet.

Yeah, all of these things depend on the person. I bought a house straight out of fellowship because rent in the area for a safe 1BR 1BA apartment was $650/month with pet restrictions, etc. My 3BR 2 BA house (10 yr mortgage) was $400/month in a safe neighborhood. I had a roommate, which I couldn’t have had comfortably in the apartment. So, even if we added $100 per person for added household costs (and we were both handy, the apartments didn’t provide electricity) we were saving $300/mo each. I had a HUD mortgage, so closing costs rolled in with very little down. When we sold the house (4 years later) I had a small (couple thousand) profit…but the real saving grace was the monthly savings. Now, that isn’t realistic in all areas (we couldn’t have done it in NYC) but it works very well in some areas, especially if you find a buyer’s agent who understands the goals and pay straight fee instead of percentages. I learned a lot by taking a free home-buyers class (they even gave us lunch) and so much comes down to ‘it depends.’

I personally wouldn’t go to all the extra expenses mentioned about the clinic-owning vet (ie new vehicle, new trailer, unless those were business expenses), but that is because paying off debt is a high priority to me. We also live a lot ‘poorer’ than other students right now; no daily starbucks, no weekend partying, very few meals out, which we always split a single course or meal, no cable, heat/ac low, no spring break or summer trips. But I do own a house, because it was cheaper than finding an apartment that would allow my two big dogs (and it was an ‘ugly’ house well below market value during the tanked market in an area that had one of the mildest downswings and is already starting to upswing.) So a lot of it is about gaining knowledge about what makes sense for you as an individual. I would want to own a practice (if I go into private practice) as soon as I felt confident in my skills, or at least buy into one because I understand business and am comfortable with that aspect, so I know I can handle it and that it will be, most of the time (and with adequate research) a solid return on investment both immediately and long term.

 

[Tobysgirl81]

While I firmly believe in living like a student after you graduate in order to make the most headway on your loans, this figure is unrealistic as it does not take into account taxes. Even at only 25% of your income, that leaves you with $45,000 to live on for the year--then subtract rent, health insurance, etc etc etc and see how much you have left over to pay your student loans. It's a lot less than $25,000...and it will take you a lot longer to pay off $150,000.

Everyone's a critic. I know that's an unrealistic figure. However, without being able to say EXACTLY how much you're going to make or what your taxes will be I just made an off the cuff figure judgement. The point however is still valid and just the same.

Don't live like you have a $60,000 a year income. Live like you have a $20,000 a year income and use whatever money you have leftover to pay your loans. You're right, you still will likely take longer than 5 years to pay your bills. But that doesn't mean you should say "OH MY GOD, I'LL OWE SO MUCH I SHOULD NEVER GO TO SCHOOL!" or "OH MY GOD, IT'S GOING TO TAKE ME SO LONG PAY OFF THESE LOANS!". It means you should make long term financial planning a priority NOW instead of getting out of school, increasing your cost of living and finding that you have these loans for 30 years instead of 10.

And here's my non-financial advice. I would like to believe we're all here because we're passionate about vet med. Why deny that passion and desire simply because you're afraid of the loans? You have the rest of your life to worry about money - which you will. And for more reasons than vet school. Wait until you buy your first house or have your first child or buy a new car This is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Cliche as is sounds: Money comes and goes, but experiences last forever.

 

[sumstorm]

It means you should make long term financial planning a priority NOW instead of getting out of school, increasing your cost of living and finding that you have these loans for 30 years instead of 10.

definitely think that is sage advice that is often ignored, not necessarily because people want to instantly improve their overall standard of living, but because the standard of living they are accustomed to growing up is better than they can achieve early in their careers. As much as I gripe about folks doing this, I think the reason it has been very easy to live with little is because I never had much to begin with…. So cutting out stuff is less painful.

And here's my non-financial advice. I would like to believe we're all here because we're passionate about vet med. Why deny that passion and desire simply because you're afraid of the loans? You have the rest of your life to worry about money - which you will. And for more reasons than vet school. Wait until you buy your first house or have your first child or buy a new car. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Cliche as is sounds: Money comes and goes, but experiences last forever.

I think that is far easier said that lived, especially for folks who have had nothing; worrying about where the next meal comes from, whether you will have a roof overhead, etc makes committing oneself to massive amounts of debt extremely painful…a fear that can be paralyzing. Some people can not mentally cope with that , and shrugging it off as simple fear of loans that are easily managed isn’t reasonable either. I have bought my first (and fifth) house, lost a husband, lost my home to a hurricane, miscarried, remarried, raised foster kids, and thanked the powers that be to have this opportunity. I fully agree with your enthusiasm, but I also empathize those who aren’t able to take the risk; I wasn’t either. It took finding the right place and time in my life. I am actually glad to hear people talk about the realities of cost and really think about it. The threads last year were much more about following dreams to ideal schools no matter what the cost. This year it seems that even those considering that route are aware of the price tag and increased sacrifice that will go with it, at least mentally. While money does come and go, experiencing absolutely gone is incredibly scary, and isn’t always recoverable. I applaud all the folks, especially the younger students who haven’t juggled all the expenses of lives for taking a very serious view of the costs and benefits of this education and career path that we are all passionate about.

 

[Tobysgirl81]

I know it might all come off as glib, but I guess my feelings are we're all set up to go into debt. And yes, being at absolute broke is terrifying. I went through a divorce this past year and there were many months where I was staring at a negative checking account with a week left to go until payday. I have not ever lived on the streets however, or ever thought I couldn't move back with my parents if I needed to, or ever found myself at the absolute limit. I do think its wise to look at cost of schooling and make sure you set yourself up to the best of your ability.

I guess, I'm one who's looked back at all the opportunities I've had and all the "could have, would have, should have" moments in my life...and I wish I would have taken advantage of MORE of them over the past 10 years instead of worried about all the possible problems I might encounter. All we can control is ourselves. Everything else will work out how its going to work out, but if you worry about everything you CAN'T control you're limiting yourself to a very small life.

At least that's philosophy according to Tobysgirl81. I guess my life has been such a turmoil over the last few years I figure the best thing I can do is go along for the ride, cut my losses where I need to and grab my opportunities where they arise!

 

[cowgirla]

Why? Assuming the clinic the first vet bought was profitable(and your not going to get a loan to buy a clinic that isn't) they are probably doing way better than the second vet. Just because someone complains a lot about their loans doesn't mean they are doing bad off. The person that bought the 3-5 doctor clinic is probably accumulating a lot more equity on their clinic than they are paying in loans each year and possibly more than vet #2 makes in a year. And this is on top of the fact that the first vet is probably making close to double that the second vet is in salary each year.

Except her vet school never taught her management skills, so that 5 doctor practice now is just her and one other doc. Let's just say it's not as successful as it used to be and is dangerously close to going bankrupt. I've seen the financials, and I know what we bring in every day. She's trying, but I don't think she's trying to right things.

 

[sumstorm]

Except her vet school never taught her management skills, so that 5 doctor practice now is just her and one other doc. Let's just say it's not as successful as it used to be and is dangerously close to going bankrupt. I've seen the financials, and I know what we bring in every day. She's trying, but I don't think she's trying to right things.

and that is the point where you have to know, as an owner, that you must hire the absolute best manager possible and pay them well to make sure the place operates well, then listen intently.

 

[sumstorm]

I have not ever lived on the streets however, or ever thought I couldn't move back with my parents if I needed to, or ever found myself at the absolute limit. I do think its wise to look at cost of schooling and make sure you set yourself up to the best of your ability.

Different sides of similar coins. I never predicted I would be a widow before 24 or homeless before 26 & living out of my car (and no, I couldn’t have moved in with my parents, but they were kind enough to take my pets for me for 6 months.) And at that time, I never predicted 5 years later that I would be in vet school. I have been at both the peak and trough, and that is a huge part of the reason I am attending the cheapest IS vet school in the country. If I hadn’t been accepted here, but was accepted elsewhere with triple the tuition and higher COL, it would have been a very, very difficult decision. And I knew I wouldn’t reapply.

I guess, I'm one who's looked back at all the opportunities I've had and all the "could have, would have, should have" moments in my life...and I wish I would have taken advantage of MORE of them over the past 10 years instead of worried about all the possible problems I might encounter. All we can control is ourselves. Everything else will work out how its going to work out, but if you worry about everything you CAN'T control you're limiting yourself to a very small life.

I am an individual who has embraced life, believed the journey was the point, not the pathway to the point. I don’t have much in the way of regrets, and I have always been aware of the economic balances I was attempting, but things can go horribly wrong very quickly through no fault of your own and there can be absolutely nothing you can do about it but keep struggling. But I also know it doesn’t always work out. Sometimes you can’t salvage much, sometimes there isn’t anything left. Sometimes rescue, even rescue you paid for ahead of time through insurance, comes too late to ease suffering. Debt is something I can control. I am not suggesting anyone not attend, but I am suggesting live well below your means now, during school, and after, and decide if it is really the right path for you. I know quite a few vets who hate veterinary medicine, who want out, and who are trapped by their debt. I can honestly say, in most of the cases on SDN that I have heard this year, where it is choosing between debt and attendance at all, I would go with the debt. Given the choice between more or less debt, I would go with less. But for those who are certain they love the career (which is different than the education) it is probably worth the risk.

 

[david594]

Except her vet school never taught her management skills, so that 5 doctor practice now is just her and one other doc. Let's just say it's not as successful as it used to be and is dangerously close to going bankrupt. I've seen the financials, and I know what we bring in every day. She's trying, but I don't think she's trying to right things.

Thats a bit of an important detail you left out there! Them buying the clinic was still a good idea. Driving it into the ground with poor management wasn't.


And something that we can't forget with students that had federal loans ~10 years old is that their loans were originally not fixed rate loans. And many of them were able to consolidate their loans into fixed interest rate loans at <3% interest. With a rate that low they really have no incentive to pay off their loans any faster than they have to when fairly conservative investments will generally pay higher returns.

 

[alliecat44]

Everyone's a critic. I know that's an unrealistic figure. However, without being able to say EXACTLY how much you're going to make or what your taxes will be I just made an off the cuff figure judgement. The point however is still valid and just the same.

Um, wasn't trying to be a "critic," just trying to point out for those reading your post that that number IS an unrealistic figure. Better that than they think otherwise...People should be going into this with their eyes wide open and aware of the numbers.

 

[purplesaurus]

I also think you need to be really careful when looking at and thinking about medians.

I also assumed I would make 40-50k after my bachelors degree and that was no where near reality. I struggle to make much more then half of that figure with a BA in biology. Yes, partly that is the economy and partly it is where I live (midwest) but to be honest if I wanted to make closer to even the median bachelors range I had to be willing to go back to school in something.

So for me, taking on an additional debt load was the only way I could ever reach salary earning potential above $40k.

Sad but true.

Yes, so very true. After receiving my BA, the best I could do was $23k a year (lab tech at a public university; at least it had good benefits), and I mean the very best. I quit that job, and the best I could do after that was not much more over $15k a year. I really need more schooling to make a decent living anyway, so I'm willing to take on the debt of veterinary school if I can do something I love.

I also have had the experience of knowing people who chose careers for money and then hated it. That is not a place I want to be in.

 

[gilch]

I went to the loan calculator mentioned on one of these pages about debt mentioned, http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml. This is the response I got for a 10 year repayment, IS school, medium IS tuition, as far as that goes, and low living expenses:

[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Wow! You're borrowing a lot of money to pay for your college education. Maybe you should think about attending a less expensive college? A good rule of thumb is that your total education debt should be less than your expected starting salary. If you borrow more than twice your expected starting salary you will find it extremely difficult to repay the debt. Live like a student while you are in school so you don't have to live like a student after you graduate. .

Is anyone expecting to make more money the first year on the job than they borrow? There might be a few lucky people that need to borrow minimally, but I think it is safe to say that this is meant for undergrad students!

 

[katydid628]

I went to the loan calculator mentioned on one of these pages about debt mentioned, http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml. This is the response I got for a 10 year repayment, IS school, medium IS tuition, as far as that goes, and low living expenses:

[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Wow! You're borrowing a lot of money to pay for your college education. Maybe you should think about attending a less expensive college? A good rule of thumb is that your total education debt should be less than your expected starting salary. If you borrow more than twice your expected starting salary you will find it extremely difficult to repay the debt. Live like a student while you are in school so you don't have to live like a student after you graduate. .

Is anyone expecting to make more money the first year on the job than they borrow? There might be a few lucky people that need to borrow minimally, but I think it is safe to say that this is meant for undergrad students!

Ha! I literally laughed out loud when I read this, as it CLEARLY is not talking to vet students! Even if I took out loans for my bare minimum, IS school, at best it would mean 2 years salary (and that's assuming I get the job I want right out of vet school!) These people must be crazy!!!! (or at least have never met a pre-vet student!)