"Flexible" Med Schools

[furyhockey]

Hi Everyone,

I was hoping I could get some insight as to what schools around the county are a little more flexible than others. By flexible I mean non-mandatory lectures (just in case) as well as pass/fail grading systems. I've read about some schools who do the pass/fail structure which sounds really nice not due to the fact I'm going to try and barely pass by but just the fact that I know some classes will be much harder than others and I honestly don't expect to get straight A's nor would I think I could even. I want to learn as much as possible rather than worry about which grade I get. I am married with a baby on the way which is why I wanted some better advice on which schools may offer things like this. I'm looking at University of Minnesota, UCLA, Baylor and open to suggestions as I am just trying to do my research at this point.

Thank you

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[gyngyn]

You might be better served by first identifying the schools you are likely to be accepted into, and then evaluating "flexibility." The three schools you've mentioned have very little overlap in accepted students so it seems unlikely you would be a strong candidate for all of them.

 

[brainnurse]

Listen to gyngyn.

Also, check out LECOM - Bradenton. Students I meet seem to love their limited in-class time.

 

[QofQuimica]

One of the more perplexing things for me when advising premeds is the obsessive focus everyone has on the preclinical years. Of four years of medical school and 3+ years of residency, the first two years of med school are the MOST flexible that your medical training is ever going to get. I don't care how "mandatory" a school's preclinical courses are; even if they make you attend from 9A-5P M-F for two straight years, that is the most flexible your training is EVER going to get until the day you graduate from residency. The first two years of med school are also the least relevant in terms of preparing you for becoming a practicing physician. PBL vs lecture, P/F vs grades, who gives a flying rip. None of that BS matters one whit after your MS2 year. You're gonna get graded with letter grades as an MS3, and you're gonna be working 80 hour weeks on a lot of those rotations. And MS3 grades are the grades that residency program directors care about.

So here's what I suggest.

First, you need to understand now that medical training is NOT family friendly. It's just not. If you're looking for a job that lets you have a regular schedule, gets you home with your family every night for dinner, and allows you to control your time, you have at least a MINIMUM of seven years of medical training before you reach that point. And even then, how flexible your attending schedule will be depends on your specialty and what type of job you choose.

Second, if work/life balance issues are important to you, and I'm not at all making a judgment call here about whether they should or should not be, then you have a decision to make. Are you willing to defer having that balance for the next 7+ years? Because while people with families can and do go to med school and through residency, they don't do it by getting their training schedule to conform to their family schedule. They do it by working their family life around their training schedule. And the truth is, someone else (spouse, parent, nanny, etc.) will be doing a lot of the work of raising your baby for the next 7+ years while you're in training.

Third, the one factor from med school that will most affect your quality of life ten years from now when you're at my point (i.e., an attending) is the cost of your school. Don't get me wrong: I loved my med school. The people were great. The training was great. But you know what the best thing about that school was? They gave me a full tuition scholarship, and I graduated completely debt-free. Do you think I care now about whether ten years ago they gave grades or had mandatory attendance? Heck no. What I care about is that I am not sending my hard-earned money to some bank.

So my advice to you is this: if you want to maximize your freedom in life, then forget these irrelevant details about preclinical curriculums of different schools. Go to the cheapest school that accepts you, and be as frugal as possible while you're in training so you can minimize your debt as much as possible. That will give you the option to do things like work PT later once you're an attending, or even retire early altogether. Which is what I'm going to be doing after this year, because since I have no debt, I can afford to take the pay cut.

 

[futuremdforme]

Totally agree with all of the above points!

That said, my school is P/F, but we are told our average and the class average so you can always know where you stand. Despite being non-trad and my pre-reqs being 10 years old, I was above average in every single class, with straight A's. P/F is nice to remember the day before a test but don't make assumptions about where you stand.

 

[Law2Doc]

Strongly agree with Qs post in terms of flexibility. Will add that you might not even have that much flexibility in your career after residency either if you want to maintain an upward career trajectory in some settings.

A note on pass fail -- bear in mind (1) that as Q mentioned first year grades don't really matter much. So getting a pass or a C might not be a very different or significant experience. (2) A lot of the places with pass/fail have "high pass", "honors" and other gradations such that it's really just letters under different names anyhow. And (3) you are in a class of people who all got As and Bs in college, yet half will now be in the bottom half of the class. So don't delude yourself into thinking P/F means the same thing in med school as college, where there were all those C and D students to bail you out on the curve. You'll work really hard just to end up with that P in med school. Med schools won't generally fail you out, but you certainly could end up retaking a test, a course or even a whole year. (4) as mentioned even if they use P/F many places still rank you, so there will still be that source of competition for AOA etc.

 

[QofQuimica]

Strongly agree with Qs post in terms of flexibility. Will add that you might not even have that much flexibility in your career after residency either if you want to maintain an upward career trajectory in some settings.

This is also a good point. If you go into private practice, you will be working hard to establish yourself/become partner just like any other new business owner does. If you go into academia, they will care about whether you are progressing toward promotion to tenure. I'm about to have my yearly meeting with my chairman regarding this, as a matter of fact.

That being said, it is definitely possible in many specialties to find a salaried employee model position where you can work 40 hours M-F, 9A-5P, or even PT, if you are willing to take a significant paycut. Alternatively, in some specialties you could consider locums positions, which also provide significant flexibility of work hours. But again, none of this is possible as a trainee.

I currently work about half as many hours now than I did as a resident. Given that I am going to be leaving in about nine months, I don't really care about how well I'm progressing toward tenure. But L2D is right; if I was legitimately gunning for promotion to tenure, I'd be working a lot more hours than I currently am. For the record, premeds, there are no work hour restrictions on attendings. I guess somehow at midnight on July 1 after your residency ends, you suddenly become a better decision-maker while sleep-deprived than you were the day before.

 

[furyhockey]

Thank you all for the insight. I may not have said some things clearly but I was just wondering what types of schools class schedules are more flexible than others such as lectures, etc. but my questions have been answered and I really appreciate it. I only ask because my wife and I are expecting our first and just a lot of uncertainty in terms of schedule but I am not worried about working many hours after school with a salary it was just trying to find out the best school that is the best fit for our situation to make it through.

 

[Citron]

Honestly, I don't think that it's something you should worry about at this moment. Reading your other thread, I believe you haven't taken any prereqs nor volunteered in a clinical setting, and your undergrad major was Marketing (so I guess no sGPA yet). Please be aware that med school admission is a seller's market and not everyone who wants to get in can get in. You may end up getting only one acceptance at a school in the middle of nowhere. It's best that you strive for a great application, apply broadly, gain at least a few acceptances, only then can you have the luxury of narrowing down your choices based on flexibility.
I agree with other posters that medicine is not a flexible career and your family should have a realistic expectation. No crashing patients care if your kid is crying at home. In addition, even if you get accepted to a so-called flexible med school, what if you have another baby during residency interview season? intern year? board exam? Not even that far, given that kids get sick quite often in their first two years, can you balance both prereq study and child care? How strong is your support system? Is your wife aware of how much sacrifice she will need to make in order for you to pursue your dream? I'm not saying it's impossible to be a nontrad parent, I've seen plenty of couples that stay strong through the entire process, but reasonable expectation and good communication go a long way.

 

[Mad Jack]

One of the more perplexing things for me when advising premeds is the obsessive focus everyone has on the preclinical years. Of four years of medical school and 3+ years of residency, the first two years of med school are the MOST flexible that your medical training is ever going to get. I don't care how "mandatory" a school's preclinical courses are; even if they make you attend from 9A-5P M-F for two straight years, that is the most flexible your training is EVER going to get until the day you graduate from residency. The first two years of med school are also the least relevant in terms of preparing you for becoming a practicing physician. PBL vs lecture, P/F vs grades, who gives a flying rip. None of that BS matters one whit after your MS2 year. You're gonna get graded with letter grades as an MS3, and you're gonna be working 80 hour weeks on a lot of those rotations. And MS3 grades are the grades that residency program directors care about.

So here's what I suggest.

First, you need to understand now that medical training is NOT family friendly. It's just not. If you're looking for a job that lets you have a regular schedule, gets you home with your family every night for dinner, and allows you to control your time, you have at least a MINIMUM of seven years of medical training before you reach that point. And even then, how flexible your attending schedule will be depends on your specialty and what type of job you choose.

Second, if work/life balance issues are important to you, and I'm not at all making a judgment call here about whether they should or should not be, then you have a decision to make. Are you willing to defer having that balance for the next 7+ years? Because while people with families can and do go to med school and through residency, they don't do it by getting their training schedule to conform to their family schedule. They do it by working their family life around their training schedule. And the truth is, someone else (spouse, parent, nanny, etc.) will be doing a lot of the work of raising your baby for the next 7+ years while you're in training.

Third, the one factor from med school that will most affect your quality of life ten years from now when you're at my point (i.e., an attending) is the cost of your school. Don't get me wrong: I loved my med school. The people were great. The training was great. But you know what the best thing about that school was? They gave me a full tuition scholarship, and I graduated completely debt-free. Do you think I care now about whether ten years ago they gave grades or had mandatory attendance? Heck no. What I care about is that I am not sending my hard-earned money to some bank.

So my advice to you is this: if you want to maximize your freedom in life, then forget these irrelevant details about preclinical curriculums of different schools. Go to the cheapest school that accepts you, and be as frugal as possible while you're in training so you can minimize your debt as much as possible. That will give you the option to do things like work PT later once you're an attending, or even retire early altogether. Which is what I'm going to be doing after this year, because since I have no debt, I can afford to take the pay cut.

Two years is, however, two years. There are those that have both chosen their school and their specialty based upon the least painful path.

 

[QofQuimica]

Two years is, however, two years. There are those that have both chosen their school and their specialty based upon the least painful path.

I don't think we do premeds any favors by pretending that they are going to have a "flexible" home life while in training. This doctoring s*** is hard work, has to be done at odd hours, and has to be done for long hours. And as a trainee, those hours are unpredictable, with lots of other people telling you when to jump, where to jump, and how high. I just want people to jump in with their eyes open.

 

[DaisyC]

I've heard really good things about UTMB. I think most of the lectures are posted online so you can just watch the lectures at home. I'm pretty sure their curriculum is pass/fail as well. But depending on where you live, it might be hard to get in as an OOS applicant.

 

[Law2Doc]

... but I am not worried about working many hours after school with a salary it was just trying to find out the best school that is the best fit for our situation to make it through.

Not clear from this phrasing that you are getting it. Med school is four years. The first two might be relatively flexible in terms of lecture attendance although you'll be studying hard, probably putting in the equivalent amount of time as a long houred full time job. There is no, I'll just skim stuff for a few hours a day, get a "P" and be fine. It's not like college - there will be people opening and closing the library every weekend who will still sweat every test in a P/F system. So flexibility is a relative term. It means you can spend an hour with your kid at noon and choose to make it up at night, not that you have the flexibility to get by with less.

Starting third year things can get very inflexible. You might be working 80 hour work weeks with no weekends off and a number of overnight shifts during some rotations. When I was in med school they weren't beholden to the 80 hour work week for non-residents so we were expected to pre round before and clean up various details after the residents came to work -- today places protect you a bit more on hours. You will still be paying tuition at this point, not getting a salary, but you will be working whatever schedule they put you on which in some rotations will be 40 and other rotations more like 70-80 hours a week. Medicine happens 24/7 so there is little respect for weekends- you get them off so rarely we call them "golden". Fourth year you have a bit more control over your schedule since you'll be choosing electives, especially after the match, but before that you may have away rotations, applications, interview trips and Step 2 eating up your "spare" time. And a lot of people didn't take such cushy schedules as others that year in hopes it would ease the transition to intern year and/or get into certain fields. Again you are still paying tuition this year, no salary. Then you'll have 3-7 years of residency when all bets are off. You'll be working overnights, you'll be working weekends. You'll be working up to 80 hours a week (on paper) and be expected to read up on patients, pass step 3, pass your in-service tests, and be prepared to teach med students and juniors in your spare time. And yes you'll earn a "salary" at this point but if you've got a family it won't be much -- you won't be affording nannies and the like on this petty sum. It's only after that that you'll have more career control and salary to structure things as you are picturing. And as I mentioned, even then the career path you might be like full of inflexibilities. Many of us are still working as hard as residents.

 

[QofQuimica]

Thank you all for the insight. I may not have said some things clearly but I was just wondering what types of schools class schedules are more flexible than others such as lectures, etc. but my questions have been answered and I really appreciate it. I only ask because my wife and I are expecting our first and just a lot of uncertainty in terms of schedule but I am not worried about working many hours after school with a salary it was just trying to find out the best school that is the best fit for our situation to make it through.

I personally would not want to be be starting med school with a newborn or toddler at all, because the time lost can never be gotten back. But that's me. There are plenty of people who do it, and it can definitely be done with enough outside help. You should talk to some people who have been parents of small children during medical training for more insight and specifics of how they managed. But again, you need to understand that you will be missing out on a lot of your family life for the next 7+ years, especially after your MS2 year, no matter what med school you attend. And again, you and your spouse need to be aware that this is not a family-friendly path you're choosing.

 

[Goro]

Lots of schools have this feature. Many, in fact, are moving to a flipped curriculum....so you're just trading lectures for mandatory exercises, either team-based or not.

One more thing: many pre-meds need to understand that this conversation will be VERY common once you're in med school:

Them: What are you doing?
You: Studying.

I've heard really good things about UTMB. I think most of the lectures are posted online so you can just watch the lectures at home. I'm pretty sure their curriculum is pass/fail as well.

 

[augeremt]

You may have to search through schools' websites to get this information. A lot publish whether they're pass/fail, which would serve you well for the first two years. Some even have their day-to-day schedule posted online so you can see how many classes are mandatory.

Your best bet would be narrowing schools down by where you're likely to be accepted based on your stats and MSAR as well as where you'd like to be geographically. Then look at the curricula of that dwindled list. Also, ask students during the interview day how much is mandatory and how much independent learning they have. They will be your best source of information.

I agree with posters on here saying that medicine is not a flexible profession and you'll miss out on a lot with your family. But the first two years of medical school can give you a decent amount of time at home if you find the right school. Good luck!

 

[runnergal]

@QofQuimica Any additional information on how you received the full tuition scholarship ?

 

[QofQuimica]

@QofQuimica Any additional information on how you received the full tuition scholarship ?

It was a combination of serendipity and chutzpah. I had a diversity scholarship that paid absolutely everything (tuition + living expenses, the whole COA), and basically everyone else who got it was URM. The admissions dean at this med school liked me and wanted me to come. I said I would come if they gave me one of those diversity scholarships. Jews aren't exactly under-represented in medicine, and I figured I wouldn't hear any more about it. But what did I have to lose by asking? I was planning to attend a different school and almost didn't even attend my interview at this school. But I'll be darned if the dean didn't call me a couple of days later to offer it to me. So I went there instead. I still don't understand why I got that scholarship, TBH. The dean and I became friends while I was in med school, and I asked about it once. The answer I got was that the adcom knew I'd do right by my patients. Which I thought about for a while, until I finally concluded that the dean didn't know why the adcom gave me the scholarship either. So I'm sorry, but I don't think I can provide anyone else a blueprint on how to get a full ride, or offer any advice on how to accomplish it beyond, "be in the right place at the right time with the right advocate." Because that's how I did it. :-/

 

[cabinbuilder]

Listen to gyngyn.

Also, check out LECOM - Bradenton. Students I meet seem to love their limited in-class time.

LECOM Erie also has Independent Study program. You have class the first semester for anatomy, then it's Weekly on Wed for OMM.