For psychiatrists who practice dance therapy: dealing with falls

[Ceke2002]

well it really depends on the situation.....I don't know the situation in which the pt fell, but if everyone was dancing I doubt it was a situation where there was a person down of complete unknown etiology. IOW, there is usually some msk issue/collision/whatever that would be noticed by someone and then the pt goes down. In that case, it's not like heart attack, stroke, etc is really going to be on the differential.

If you read the OP's original post, it appears the fall happened during a one on one session. Which means she left an elderly patient alone, on the floor, in pain with a fractured hip whilst she ignored her suffering in order to continue to dance off in a corner somewhere. Now what part of that is in anyway acceptable or okay?

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[vistaril]

You have probably said 5+ times you didn't have the skills/interest to possibly be good at specialties besides psych, thats not true for most of the posters here.

no I mean the other nonsense....

 

[Ceke2002]

How does it make you feel when those outside and inside the profession read your posts and think you're an idiot?

How does it feel when a former trained dancer, who actually uses dance as a therapeutic adjunct to the more traditional Psychiatric practices, also thinks you're a complete idiot.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

Vistaril has consistently stated he didn't have the skill, aptitude or interest to excel in other fields of medicine. I think he projects that on everyone else and he assumes everyone is like him. He literally doesn't know what its like for all you psychiatrists who are strong, well rounded physicians because thats such a foreign concept to his own skills and experience.

This is a shrewd conclusion many of us were thinking but didn't articulate.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

How does it feel when a former trained dancer, who actually uses dance as a therapeutic adjunct to the more traditional Psychiatric practices, also thinks you're a complete idiot.

At what point does an obnoxious preschooler realize he's obnoxious?

 

[Ceke2002]

At what point does an obnoxious preschooler realize he's obnoxious?

I would assume when the preschooler is old enough to have some modicum of insight into their behaviour and the responses of those around them. The fact that OP is an adult with an apparent medical degree, and still can't seem to muster the requisite amount of insight to realise what she did was wrong, is pretty much gobsmacking to me.

 

[Fabio001]

If you read the OP's original post, it appears the fall happened during a one on one session. Which means she left an elderly patient alone, on the floor, in pain with a fractured hip whilst she ignored her suffering in order to continue to dance off in a corner somewhere. Now what part of that is in anyway acceptable or okay?

She goes on to state that even as the patient was being hauled away to the ambulance she continued to dance in the waiting room, but made sure to avoid eye contact... Guys, this is not REAL! Lol

 

[jakeislove]

She goes on to state that even as the patient was being hauled away to the ambulance she continued to dance in the waiting room, but made sure to avoid eye contact... Guys, this is not REAL! Lol

We're just trying to stay in Frame.

 

[smalltownpsych]

If I have a patient who has a heart attack and falls on the floor during my session, should I help him, thereby breaking the therapeutic frame and possibly feed his unhealthy dependency needs? If he actually dies because I don't do anything, would I be liable since I have a strong theoretical rationale behind my treatment? Should I hand my patient who has snot running from their nose a kleenex or just watch them agonize over what to do?
Just ridiculous! I really do hope the OP was joking, but as stated by others, I have run it no this type of thinking before.

 

[NickNaylor]

Reading this thread in its entirety was well worth the 10 minutes.

@novopsych, you're just ridiculous, (wo)man. Between this thread and your claims regarding the unbreakable link between smoking and "the dance," it's just impossible to take you seriously.

 

[Ceke2002]

If I have a patient who has a heart attack and falls on the floor during my session, should I help him, thereby breaking the therapeutic frame and possibly feed his unhealthy dependency needs? If he actually dies because I don't do anything, would I be liable since I have a strong theoretical rationale behind my treatment? Should I hand my patient who has snot running from their nose a kleenex or just watch them agonize over what to do?
Just ridiculous! I really do hope the OP was joking, but as stated by others, I have run it no this type of thinking before.

When in doubt you should always attend to your patient's needs via the interpretive dance stylings of Homer.

 

[Dires]

I'm embarrassed to admit that I have found novopsych's posts and this thread hilarious.

 

[jakeislove]

I'm wondering if he ever plays this song and dances along while delivering a diagnosis:

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It may be an important to note that the fam and I are off to the Parish picnic. There will fellowship, gambling (for Jesus), drinking, AND dancing. Good times will had by all.

Gambling For Jesus….awesome band name.

I can just imagine some of you guys on an airplane rushing to help when someone asks if a dr is present and then the looks on their faces when you tell them you're a shrink.

What if they spoke jive?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

ps. This was a quality trolling by the OP.

 

[jakeislove]

Gambling For Jesus….awesome band name.



What if they spoke jive?

"Brother don't want no help, brother don't need no help"

It's been forever and I can't remember if "Brother" was substituted for another (more colorful) word.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I only like to practice my dance moves outside the therapy office and I also prefer to dance with the non-elderly for obvious reasons.

***edit*** I was thinking about liability from falls, that was your own projection!

 

[Ceke2002]

I only like to practice my dance moves outside the therapy office...

Gee I was thinking of asking my Psychiatrist to perform a Psychotherapeutic Lambada with me next session, too inappropriate you think?

 

[Ceke2002]

ps. This was a quality trolling by the OP.

Outstanding. She really should be awarded with her very own dance. How about 'Dance of the Quacks'

 

[Still Kickin]

Seeing as it appears this thread was actually slowing fading down the page into obscurity, I probably should not be adding an additional comment to it, but I just could not restrain myself. I just read an article on KevinMD and the whole time I was reading it, all I could think about was this thread. (It's got some great lines that really apply to this thread, by the way. Like the second paragraph in particular.) http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/02...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

[novopsych]

Seeing as it appears this thread was actually slowing fading down the page into obscurity, I probably should not be adding an additional comment to it, but I just could not restrain myself. I just read an article on KevinMD and the whole time I was reading it, all I could think about was this thread. (It's got some great lines that really apply to this thread, by the way. Like the second paragraph in particular.) http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/02...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

I would point out that the idea that medicine is divorced from culture isn't true. Should everything be evidence-based? We could make an argument for it. But it's not how our system works presently. I saw that article was written by a pediatrician. Ob/gyns and pediatricians are more than happy to perform a circumcision even if the impetus for it is non-medical. They'll take the money.

I don't know if you've ever seen Madonna live on stage. She's an entertainer. I'm not calling her a dancer. I'm not calling her a singer. I'm calling her an entertainer, and she is one of the world's best. She takes B-vitamin injections right into the buttocks before she goes on stage. It's part of her ritual. Now do we need medical evidence to support this practice by her personal doctor? It's part of Madonna's ritual.

Maybe in a different world we need evidence. But it's not the world we live in. I'm not too familiar with your garden variety patient seeking out B-vitamin injections, but I would imagine there is some therapeutic alliance, some "theatre" if you will, to dropping your trousers and having your doctor stick with you an injection of B-vitamins. If we lived in an evidence-based world, would we even have entire fields like cosmetic surgery (and I'm not talking about reconstructive surgery)?

Culture and medicine are inextricably linked. You've got the AAP (the organization the doctor who wrote that article likely belongs to) lobbying to perform pin-prick female circumcisions! That is only about culture, or is there some evidence for the benefit of that as well?

I am not ashamed of being a dance therapist. At least with the dance I'm not some piquerist—now that really is only about culture and absolutely no medical benefit.

 

[edgerock24]

I would point out that the idea that medicine is divorced from culture isn't true. Should everything be evidence-based? We could make an argument for it. But it's not how our system works presently. I saw that article was written by a pediatrician. Ob/gyns and pediatricians are more than happy to perform a circumcision even if the impetus for it is non-medical. They'll take the money.

I don't know if you've ever seen Madonna live on stage. She's an entertainer. I'm not calling her a dancer. I'm not calling her a singer. I'm calling her an entertainer, and she is one of the world's best. She takes B-vitamin injections right into the buttocks before she goes on stage. It's part of her ritual. Now do we need medical evidence to support this practice by her personal doctor? It's part of Madonna's ritual.

Maybe in a different world we need evidence. But it's not the world we live in. I'm not too familiar with your garden variety patient seeking out B-vitamin injections, but I would imagine there is some therapeutic alliance, some "theatre" if you will, to dropping your trousers and having your doctor stick with you an injection of B-vitamins. If we lived in an evidence-based world, would we even have entire fields like cosmetic surgery (and I'm not talking about reconstructive surgery)?

Culture and medicine are inextricably linked. You've got the AAP (the organization the doctor who wrote that article likely belongs to) lobbying to perform pin-prick female circumcisions! That is only about culture, or is there some evidence for the benefit of that as well?

I am not ashamed of being a dance therapist. At least with the dance I'm not some piquerist—now that really is only about culture and absolutely no medical benefit.

I'm a huge fan of your work. Please, never stop posting on this forum.

 

[erg923]

Most people are not convinced this is an actual physician, much less a trained a psychiatrist. Would obviously be an embarrassment. I do stay on this poster when they post information advocating poor practice of psychiatry though (whether or not it is actually happening) because I think it important to advocate for the profession and portray it accurately and appropriately given that this forum is open to the public.

 

[Ceke2002]

Most people are not convinced this is an actual physician, much less trained a psychiatrist. Would obviously be an embarrassment. I do stay on this poster when they post information advocating poor practice of psychiatry though (whether or not it is actually happening) because I think it important to advocate for the profession and portray it accurately and appropriately given that this forum is open to the public.

 

[Shikima]

Most people are not convinced this is an actual physician, much less a trained a psychiatrist. Would obviously be an embarrassment. I do stay on this poster when they post information advocating poor practice of psychiatry though (whether or not it is actually happening) because I think it important to advocate for the profession and portray it accurately and appropriately given that this forum is open to the public.

Psychologist with prescriptive authority?

 

[erg923]

Psychologist with prescriptive authority?

If you are asking if I have pursued that, no, I haven't. If you are suggesting that that is necessary for spotting poor psychiatric practice, I would adamantly disagree.

 

[Shikima]

If you are asking if I have pursued that, no, I haven't. If you are suggesting that that is necessary for spotting poor psychiatric practice, I would adamantly disagree.

Free running with your thoughts and I wasn't sure you had considered that archtype.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Perhaps SDN should have a dance therapy sub forum? I'd read it.

 

[novopsych]

Perhaps SDN should have a dance therapy sub forum? I'd read it.

I think that is a superior idea, and I would support such a sub-forum and would actively post! However, I must be clear that in my practice I am a psychiatrist first and a dancer second. In fact, it's not even necessary to be a dancer to practice dance therapy. Nor it is necessary to be a psychiatrist. I happen to be a damn-good dancer though, which goes a long way in appeasing the doubting Thomases I've met in real life (and some of the ones you've seen on this board). My undergraduate degree in the dance lets people know that I'm not a dancing psychiatrist—I'm a psychiatrist who dances.

As such I would be happy to contribute to or even help moderate a dance therapy sub-forum to help those practicing dance therapy who might be less experienced than I am in both the dance and mental health knowledge and who need some pointers. Plus I am always willing to learning from others, as this thread proves (not that this thread actually ever led to any answers to my original questions). But as a psychiatrist, I'll surely be sticking around this forum—you have to remember that most dance therapist are not psychiatrists. I'm very unique in that way, in that I can offer three treatment modalities: medication, talk therapy, and dance therapy (along with ancillary services). It's why I have some of the most vibrant clients you'll ever meet.

 

[Fabio001]

Educate me: Why call it "the dance" and not just "dance"? I've had plenty of cousins that took dance classes and never once heard them refer to their dance classes as their the dance classes.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Educate me: Why call it "the dance" and not just "dance"? I've had plenty of cousins that took dance classes and never once heard them refer to their dance classes as their the dance classes.

Maybe it's something mystical and special like this --

 

[Ceke2002]

Educate me: Why call it "the dance" and not just "dance"? I've had plenty of cousins that took dance classes and never once heard them refer to their dance classes as their the dance classes.

I think it's fairly obvious by now that novopsych is playing a character for the purposes of trolling, but when I was taking Ballet lessons as a child we had both an elderly instructor (who was a retired dancer) and a much younger one - the elderly instructor would almost always use the term 'the dance', rather than just dance, the younger instructor hardly ever used the term. I think it's possibly an older style ballet thing, I don't think I ever heard the term 'the dance' when I was studying any other sort of dancing.

 

[jakeislove]

Perhaps SDN should have a dance therapy sub forum? I'd read it.

I would participate if we had an "Upbeat song of the day" thread.

 

[Ceke2002]

I would participate if we had an "Upbeat song of the day" thread.

If the mods were in agreement I think a thread like that would be great to have in this forum. I know it wouldn't exactly be on topic, but I can imagine after a hard day or week of studying, doing exams, applying for placements, going through interview processes, seeing patients, consulting, doing hospital rounds etc etc it might just be a nice little side bar distraction to have on offer.

 

[michaelrack]

x

 

[jakeislove]

x

 

[michaelrack]

I had posted a link (legitimate) about dance therapy for Parkinson's dz, but it linked to my account for the online journal so I had to delete it

 

[jakeislove]

I had posted a link (legitimate) about dance therapy for Parkinson's dz, but it linked to my account for the online journal so I had to delete it

Sorry, Doc.

I thought the little "x" meant you needed a good dance song.

Ironic that I picked a song with shake in its lyrics. What are the chances of doing something like that by accident?

Stay in frame.

 

[michaelrack]

Sorry, Doc.

I thought the little "x" meant you needed a good dance song.

Ironic that I picked a song with shake in its lyrics. What are the chances of doing something like that by accident?

Stay in frame.

I could always use a little James Brown

 

[PikminOC]

I maintain that there is no problem if I want to offer a service such as Dance Therapy as a board certified psychiatrist if:
1.) I get informed consent from the patient,
2.) It is not used in lieu of evidence based practice standards,
3.) No one is being harmed
4.) No laws or professional guidelines are being broken, and
5.) Profit
I don't think there is any American Psychiatric Association guideline specifically prohibiting dance therapy as an adjunct therapy. If there is, feel free to post a link.

It's all fun and games until you get a subpoena from a plaintiff's attorney.

Explain #5 regarding profit.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

Why the hell did you guys resurrect this thread...

 

[novopsych]

Why the hell did you guys resurrect this thread...

You cannot resurrect that which cannot die: the dance.

Did you know that the dance is helping children in Africa who have come down with ebola?

Something to think about.

 

[ara01]

This post makes me feel sad as my hope in finding a forum such as this is that it may be an opportunity to bridge the gap across various modalities and provide more education on dance/movement therapy (which by the way is the official term for dance therapy) to those who are unfamiliar with the field. I ran across this thread while trying to find more information about a PhD program for clinical psychology, but I feel that I would be remiss if I did not post a reply to this post from someone actually in the field (as many have suspected, much of what the OP even stated as "dance therapy practice" couldn't be further from the truth. The ADTA (American Dance Therapy Association) is an excellent reference for those who legitimately want to know more about the field (I am a dance/movement therapist working predominantly in inpatient psychiatry). I would refer those who want to know more to a series of talks in the format of a Ted Talk at the following link: ADTA Talks | ADTA in order to hear from actual dance/movement therapists more about their work with various populations. In particular, the second video (top right) discusses a clinical example where a patient did actually fall in a session. DMT is not a new profession, but has been in place since the 1960's, and it is not the same thing as "therapeutic dance". Dance/movement therapists are master's level clinicians working in a variety of different settings. If anyone would like to know more about the field, I am happy to answer any questions I can. If I cannot answer your question, I will do my best to try to refer you to someone who can do so. For those interested in reading more, I would also refer you to the American Journal of Dance Therapy which has been in existence since 1977.

 

[birchswing]

I can't remember all the reasons I created this parody, but I can assure you that none of them had to do with dancing as a therapy. That was a vehicle to satirize the frustrations I felt, primarily the therapist I saw at the time who had what I considered a rather inhumanly strict view of the frame of therapy. (There was actually a time when I had a physical problem in the waiting room and he would not leave his office to help me. The idea that he wouldn't stop dancing to help someone took it to a level that I could find humor in it.) It was only after I created the parody and went looking for information to bolster the claim that dance therapy existed that I found it was real. I imagine it would be rather therapeutic.

 

[thoffen]

I can't remember all the reasons I created this parody, but I can assure you that none of them had to do with dancing as a therapy. That was a vehicle to satirize the frustrations I felt, primarily the therapist I saw at the time who had what I considered a rather inhumanly strict view of the frame of therapy. (There was actually a time when I had a physical problem in the waiting room and he would not leave his office to help me. The idea that he wouldn't stop dancing to help someone took it to a level that I could find humor in it.) It was only after I created the parody and went looking for information to bolster the claim that dance therapy existed that I found it was real. I imagine it would be rather therapeutic.

Thanks for copping to the parody, but it should have been pretty obvious to everyone. Anyway, hope you actually worked through this stuff within the therapeutic frame.

For Ara, I think dance/movement therapy and others are great. My only objection is when people use these things to avoid confronting their real problems. This happens with other therapy, meds, ECT, everything, so it's no knock on dance/movement therapy but more a recognition that providers of any kind can be in danger of reinforcing avoidance of a problem even if the intervention itself is helpful.