For those that matched...

[overthebridge]

For those that matched today can you state how important each of these factors were and what is typical of an average applicant:

Away Rotations: how many?
Clinical Grades: focus on surg/med or do they all matter?
LOR: big-wigs only?
StepI/II: what numbers are we looking at?
Research/Pubs: how many papers are we looking at?
AOA: how important?
Other: anything of importance missing?

People at my school said the match was very tough this year so I am a little worried for next year.

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[armybound]

Away Rotations: how many? I did 2 and ended up matching at one of them. Most people did 2, it seems like. I didn't meet anybody who didn't do any.
Clinical Grades: focus on surg/med or do they all matter? I've met with folks who have told me they care about med, surg, and ob/gyn. Obviously do as well as you can on all of them.
LOR: big-wigs only? They help a lot. Try to get big wigs whenever possible. I did have letters from non big wigs, too and it didn't seem to hurt.
StepI/II: what numbers are we looking at? Average that's being self-reported right now for matchers is 242. You can see that it's incomplete here, but look at the wide spread of numbers
Research/Pubs: how many papers are we looking at? Most people seemed to have some research and maybe a poster. I heard several people say they had no publications, a few with no research, and a few with a ton of pubs. Very wide variation.
AOA: how important? Not crucial. A lot of people from my school (7/8) matched this year and only 1 was AOA, but he did get a "big name" program.
Other: anything of importance missing? There was a lot of discussion about second looks. In retrospect I probably could have/should have laid on the charm for my top choices a little more than I did.

 

[D0CYAN]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but who are the "big-wigs"? How do you find them among the hundreds of physicians that practice in a given area? It's easy enough to figure out if someone has done important research, but how do you know if their name will be recognizable?

 

[KinasePro]

Congrats to those who matched.

Dang, a 64% match rate is absolutely brutal. How many of the 36% unmatched will be able to eventually grab a spot? What are the options for those who didn't match?

 

[DrMidlife]

Dang, a 64% match rate is absolutely brutal. How many of the 36% unmatched will be able to eventually grab a spot? What are the options for those who didn't match?

Shouldn't we wait for the AUA numbers before calling it 64%? Or is there some other info going around.

The history is here: http://www.auanet.org/content/residency/residency-match.cfm

 

[KinasePro]

Shouldn't we wait for the AUA numbers before calling it 64%? Or is there some other info going around.

The history is here: http://www.auanet.org/content/residency/residency-match.cfm

There's some info on urology match, and 64% is the # that AUA announced in the match emails.

 

[yorku]

There's some info on urology match, and 64% is the # that AUA announced in the match emails.

Is this for US Grads? if so this is crazy....

 

[KinasePro]

Is this for US Grads? if so this is crazy....

Slightly better for US grads... 67%.

EDIT: With only ~270 training spots, I suppose its not too shocking that the match rate could drop so dramatically from year to year. It looks like there were an additional ~50 applicants this year. With all the new med schools opening and finally graduating students, we can probably expect the see a downward trend in the match rate moving forward.

 

[armybound]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but who are the "big-wigs"? How do you find them among the hundreds of physicians that practice in a given area? It's easy enough to figure out if someone has done important research, but how do you know if their name will be recognizable?

Find a mentor and ask who is a big name. Usually it's a chair or one of the senior professors. Or ask a resident at your program who a good person to get a letter from would be.

People know the importance of a letter and they'll try to help you out. A resident told me as a third year to get a letter from one of my attendings because his letter would carry a lot of weight.

 

[yorku]

Slightly better for US grads... 67%.

EDIT: With only ~270 training spots, I suppose its not too shocking that the match rate could drop so dramatically from year to year. It looks like there were an additional ~50 applicants this year. With all the new med schools opening and finally graduating students, we can probably expect the see a downward trend in the match rate moving forward.

Hey with these match rates we better turn to easy places like Plastics and derm

 

[D0CYAN]

Find a mentor and ask who is a big name. Usually it's a chair or one of the senior professors. Or ask a resident at your program who a good person to get a letter from would be.

People know the importance of a letter and they'll try to help you out. A resident told me as a third year to get a letter from one of my attendings because his letter would carry a lot of weight.

Thanks for the advice

 

[rocketbooster]

StepI/II: what numbers are we looking at? Average that's being self-reported right now for matchers is 242. You can see that it's incomplete here, but look at the wide spread of numbers.

That's interesting that the urology match actually has a big list like this. Who started it?

But at the sametime 242 is far from being even remotely complete. It seems most matched applicants already filled their info out there, but nearly half of them didn't even report their Step 1 and the average is actually closer to 241 now. Generally it's the ppl with higher scores who publicly report their numbers more than the ones with lower scores. Chances are the average would only decrease if the other half actually submitted their scores. We probably realistically are looking at high 230s or 240 at highest. I think that's where its traditionally been in the past. There's probably ~1 point increase this year as pretty much every field seems to have.

Also, it's pretty pointless to look at the percentage of total matched applicants. Urology is known to be one of the less competitive of the very competitive surgical subspecialties, so you probably have tons of unqualified ppl applying who simply stay away from other fields (like ortho, ophtho) with higher percent matched. Ortho and ophtho are more self-selective and the crappier students screen themselves out from even applying. They try urology instead, which has become probably almost as competitive as the other surgical specialties, don't match, and then ruin the urology percent matched haha. Don't pay attention to that number. Pay attention the average Step 1, if that's ever officially released?

 

[DoctwoB]

That's interesting that the urology match actually has a big list like this. Who started it?

Also, it's pretty pointless to look at the percentage of total matched applicants. Urology is known to be one of the less competitive of the very competitive surgical subspecialties, so you probably have tons of unqualified ppl applying who simply stay away from other fields (like ortho, ophtho) with higher percent matched. Ortho and ophtho are more self-selective and the crappier students screen themselves out from even applying. They try urology instead, which has become probably almost as competitive as the other surgical specialties, don't match, and then ruin the urology percent matched haha. Don't pay attention to that number. Pay attention the average Step 1, if that's ever officially released?

Since when is this known? Every physician and applicannt I've talked to has stated that Urology is among the most competitive specialties, likely on par with Ortho, ENT, Neurosurg, and radonc while less so then plastics and maybe derm. Due to the smaller sample size, Match rate will vary year to year, but it has consistently been below that of most other surgical fields (64% this year). Also, where are these "tons of people"? I've never heard of anyone trying for uro over another field because of it being perceived as "easier" to match, so I doubt that argument holds waters.

While the Urologymatch spreadsheet is certainly self-selecting and far from complete, I'd be surprised if the average step1 was more then a few points below the 241 reported there.

 

[rocketbooster]

Since when is this known? Every physician and applicannt I've talked to has stated that Urology is among the most competitive specialties, likely on par with Ortho, ENT, Neurosurg, and radonc while less so then plastics and maybe derm. Due to the smaller sample size, Match rate will vary year to year, but it has consistently been below that of most other surgical fields (64% this year). Also, where are these "tons of people"? I've never heard of anyone trying for uro over another field because of it being perceived as "easier" to match, so I doubt that argument holds waters.

While the Urologymatch spreadsheet is certainly self-selecting and far from complete, I'd be surprised if the average step1 was more then a few points below the 241 reported there.

What are you arguing here? You agree with me. I said the step 1 average is in the high 230s like you just said. Also ortho ENT etc are low to mid 240s so yes urology is a little less competitive. I never said it wasn't competitive but it's been known to have a step 1 in the 230s. The lower the step 1 average, the more ppl with lower scores applying since they think they have more of a chance. Not rocket science here.

 

[armybound]

I didn't know urology had an average Step in the 230s. Guess I didn't do my homework, I dunno.

 

[n2k2928]

What are you arguing here? You agree with me. I said the step 1 average is in the high 230s like you just said. Also ortho ENT etc are low to mid 240s so yes urology is a little less competitive. I never said it wasn't competitive but it's been known to have a step 1 in the 230s. The lower the step 1 average, the more ppl with lower scores applying since they think they have more of a chance. Not rocket science here.

The fact that urology is early match may contribute to a slightly lower step 1 average. I know a number of applicants that applied to the regular match in addition to urology as a back up plan. I don't blame the people with lower then average step scores for giving it a shot.

 

[DoctwoB]

I didn't know urology had an average Step in the 230s. Guess I didn't do my homework, I dunno.

We don't know this. The data isn't published. Our best guess is the imperfect sample of a spreadsheet of people who posted their match and statistics on Urologymatch.com. The data there has an average of 241, with about 50% of people who matched into urology reporting, between Ortho (240) and ENT (243). The only reason people are saying high 230s is the potential for reporting bias (people with higher scores being more likely to post), but we don't know whether not that is the case.

 

[KinasePro]

We don't know this. The data isn't published. Our best guess is the imperfect sample of a spreadsheet of people who posted their match and statistics on Urologymatch.com. The data there has an average of 241, with about 50% of people who matched into urology reporting, between Ortho (240) and ENT (243). The only reason people are saying high 230s is the potential for reporting bias (people with higher scores being more likely to post), but we don't know whether not that is the case.

Exactly. We can just as easily argue that students with low scores are more likely to report scores, as it's a laudable achievement to match uro with a below-average step score and speaks volumes about the rest of the individual's application. Anecdotally, I've noticed that people who match well with low step scores are much more open about sharing their scores post-match.

Also, keep in mind this is a totally anonymous spreadsheet and far different from a public forum like SDN, where you actually have some degree of your persona associated with your posts & therefore incentive to not report.

Point being is that we can easily make arguments for reporting bias in both directions, and the spreadsheet is probably an accurate proxy for the applicant pool.

 

[mbe36]

There are excellent match data for all specialities published by the NRMP MD and AO DO match. The data takes into account all major components of an application, as well as feedback from programs as to which factors they consider strongest. It is a must read and will give finite answers regarding scores. This forum is useful for subjective topics such as # of away rotations, etc.

 

[iceman87]

There are excellent match data for all specialities published by the NRMP MD and AO DO match. The data takes into account all major components of an application, as well as feedback from programs as to which factors they consider strongest. It is a must read and will give finite answers regarding scores. This forum is useful for subjective topics such as # of away rotations, etc.

Urology data is not included in NRMP's charting the match document.

 

[mbe36]

Urology data is not included in NRMP's charting the match document.

My apologies. I did just double check and the data released for DO students does include Uro. Thanks

 

[uro9414]

It's basically pointless to argue the subtlety of which speciality is more competitive when ENT, Ortho, Urology, etc all have step 1 averages that are so close to each other. When there is a specialty that has a relatively large number of applicants with board scores in the 250s-260s who don't match, I think we can all agree it is competitive. In the January 2013 Urology match, I was fortunate enough to match despite having a below average board score in the mid 220s.

When you are applying to a competitive specialty, board score and grades can only take you so far. Specialties like Anesthesia, IM, EM, Peds, etc don't get a lot of applicants with ridiculously high scores, and programs directors in these specialities will jump on applicants like this. Surgical subspecialties tend to be able to evaluate the entire application of the candidate because there are fewer overall applicants. If you look at the urology match match sheet, there are a good number of people who matched with low board scores. Obviously these people likely did away rotations where they absolutely killed it and impressed the PD and chair. Bottom line: a good board score will help you get your foot in the door if you have no connection to a program, but don't think for a second that a strong score guarantees you a spot. It's all about balance.

I have it on good authority that the average board score of urology applicants was a 243 with about 11 point standard deviation. As for matched applicants, I don't have that information but it is likely right in the same range if not higher. Urology is one of the best kept secrets in medicine. Don't let a lower board score dissuade you from applying, it just means you have to work harder and do really well on your away rotation.

I scored mid 220s on step 1, decent grades, a few non-urology abstracts, but I worked my butt off on an away rotation. At the end of the day, a program wants someone who is teachable and hardworking. Be that person and doors will open.

 

[SandsDO]

It's basically pointless to argue the subtlety of which speciality is more competitive when ENT, Ortho, Urology, etc all have step 1 averages that are so close to each other. When there is a specialty that has a relatively large number of applicants with board scores in the 250s-260s who don't match, I think we can all agree it is competitive. In the January 2013 Urology match, I was fortunate enough to match despite having a below average board score in the mid 220s.

When you are applying to a competitive specialty, board score and grades can only take you so far. Specialties like Anesthesia, IM, EM, Peds, etc don't get a lot of applicants with ridiculously high scores, and programs directors in these specialities will jump on applicants like this. Surgical subspecialties tend to be able to evaluate the entire application of the candidate because there are fewer overall applicants. If you look at the urology match match sheet, there are a good number of people who matched with low board scores. Obviously these people likely did away rotations where they absolutely killed it and impressed the PD and chair. Bottom line: a good board score will help you get your foot in the door if you have no connection to a program, but don't think for a second that a strong score guarantees you a spot. It's all about balance.

I have it on good authority that the average board score of urology applicants was a 243 with about 11 point standard deviation. As for matched applicants, I don't have that information but it is likely right in the same range if not higher. Urology is one of the best kept secrets in medicine. Don't let a lower board score dissuade you from applying, it just means you have to work harder and do really well on your away rotation.

I scored mid 220s on step 1, decent grades, a few non-urology abstracts, but I worked my butt off on an away rotation. At the end of the day, a program wants someone who is teachable and hardworking. Be that person and doors will open.

Well said.

 

[rocketbooster]

We don't know this. The data isn't published. Our best guess is the imperfect sample of a spreadsheet of people who posted their match and statistics on Urologymatch.com. The data there has an average of 241, with about 50% of people who matched into urology reporting, between Ortho (240) and ENT (243). The only reason people are saying high 230s is the potential for reporting bias (people with higher scores being more likely to post), but we don't know whether not that is the case.

Those ortho and ENT numbers are also 2 years outdated. The charting outcomes is only released every 2 years. A new one will come out in a few months. Historically, Step 1 averages seem to go up ~1 point per year for every field. So the ortho and ENT averages are probably at 242 and 245 now. That's why I said their averages are slightly higher than urology's. Realistically for all those specialties, if you have around a 240 then you should stand a shot at matching to any of them. I would argue that's probably even true for plastics (Step 1 248 average in 2011) but you'd probably have fewer interviews applying to that. Derm was at 244 in 2011, so probably 246 now. Considering these are all averages, ~240 is probably good enough to get past all interview cutoffs and give you a good shot at any field if you apply broadly, IMO.

 

[2013match]

That's interesting that the urology match actually has a big list like this. Who started it?

But at the sametime 242 is far from being even remotely complete. It seems most matched applicants already filled their info out there, but nearly half of them didn't even report their Step 1 and the average is actually closer to 241 now. Generally it's the ppl with higher scores who publicly report their numbers more than the ones with lower scores. Chances are the average would only decrease if the other half actually submitted their scores. We probably realistically are looking at high 230s or 240 at highest. I think that's where its traditionally been in the past. There's probably ~1 point increase this year as pretty much every field seems to have.

Also, it's pretty pointless to look at the percentage of total matched applicants. Urology is known to be one of the less competitive of the very competitive surgical subspecialties, so you probably have tons of unqualified ppl applying who simply stay away from other fields (like ortho, ophtho) with higher percent matched. Ortho and ophtho are more self-selective and the crappier students screen themselves out from even applying. They try urology instead, which has become probably almost as competitive as the other surgical specialties, don't match, and then ruin the urology percent matched haha. Don't pay attention to that number. Pay attention the average Step 1, if that's ever officially released?

Wow. That's quite a lot of speculation. Who knew that all the "crappier students" flocked to urology and ruined their numbers!

Bottom line, nobody knows what the urology average is because its not published. It is pointless to argue that one specialty is a less competitive specialty among the "very competitive surgical specialties" because of a supposed average in the high 230s vs 242 (or because crappier students try urology instead of ophtho?)

In the AUA match this year: 279 out of 434 applicants who submitted preference lists were matched with a program and all vacancies were filled.

Does that sound competitive to you? That sounds pretty competitive to me. The purpose of this thread is to help applicants figure out what is important in the AUA match. What exactly are you trying to argue here?

 

[rocketbooster]

Wow. That's quite a lot of speculation. Who knew that all the "crappier students" flocked to urology and ruined their numbers!

Bottom line, nobody knows what the urology average is because its not published. It is pointless to argue that one specialty is a less competitive specialty among the "very competitive surgical specialties" because of a supposed average in the high 230s vs 242 (or because crappier students try urology instead of ophtho?)

In the AUA match this year: 279 out of 434 applicants who submitted preference lists were matched with a program and all vacancies were filled.

Does that sound competitive to you? That sounds pretty competitive to me. The purpose of this thread is to help applicants figure out what is important in the AUA match. What exactly are you trying to argue here?

Based on looking at that stat alone (which is all you're doing), then urology is the most competitive specialty second to only plastics. That is simply not the truth. Considering it has the lowest stats of any of the competitive specialties, then 279/434 success rate can only be explained by more unqualified applicants applying than in the other competitive fields.

But yes you're right, it's very competitive.

 

[uro9414]

Actually, I think your assertation is incorrect as well. Having interviewed this time around and talked to many program directors and chairs candidly, I was told by many of them that this year's applicants were much stronger overall than in any previous year and there were more applicants than in any previous year. A lower match rate simply means urology is becoming more desirable. The quality of applicants is getting even stronger and unfortunately there were not enough positions to accommodate everybody. According to my future program, the average unmatched board score was actually about the same as the matched board score. Not sure how He came to that conclusion (assuming he averaged out the scores). Many people I know applied to urology and then also applied to Ortho as a backup. Like I said earlier, pretty much all the surgical specialities are about the same competitiveness.

 

[2013match]

Based on looking at that stat alone (which is all you're doing), then urology is the most competitive specialty second to only plastics. That is simply not the truth. Considering it has the lowest stats of any of the competitive specialties, then 279/434 success rate can only be explained by more unqualified applicants applying than in the other competitive fields.

But yes you're right, it's very competitive.

That's all I'm looking at because that's all AUA provides. It is not unreasonable that urology has become even more competitive in the last few years as the poster above mentions. Neither you nor I know that it has the lowest stats of any of the competitive specialties- that is your personal assumption that you are attempting to present as fact.

For people who actually want help with the urology match-- urologymatch[dot]com is a great site

 

[rocketbooster]

Actually, I think your assertation is incorrect as well. Having interviewed this time around and talked to many program directors and chairs candidly, I was told by many of them that this year's applicants were much stronger overall than in any previous year and there were more applicants than in any previous year. A lower match rate simply means urology is becoming more desirable. The quality of applicants is getting even stronger and unfortunately there were not enough positions to accommodate everybody. According to my future program, the average unmatched board score was actually about the same as the matched board score. Not sure how He came to that conclusion (assuming he averaged out the scores). Many people I know applied to urology and then also applied to Ortho as a backup. Like I said earlier, pretty much all the surgical specialities are about the same competitiveness.

I thought there no published stats so obviously this is false. If it were true then it'd probably imply that the averages are lower than.

That's all I'm looking at because that's all AUA provides. It is not unreasonable that urology has become even more competitive in the last few years as the poster above mentions. Neither you nor I know that it has the lowest stats of any of the competitive specialties- that is your personal assumption that you are attempting to present as fact.

For people who actually want help with the urology match-- urologymatch[dot]com is a great site

So maybe urology was as competitive as the other fields this year. But your stat is still a lot lower than the other fields. Use common sense here. There are 2 explanations...either urology was WAY more competitive than ortho or had a bunch of unqualified ppl applying. What do you think is more likely?

Congrats on matching. Great achievement. But don't let your excitement blind you.

 

[2013match]

I thought there no published stats so obviously this is false. If it were true then it'd probably imply that the averages are lower than.



So maybe urology was as competitive as the other fields this year. But your stat is still a lot lower than the other fields. Use common sense here. There are 2 explanations...either urology was WAY more competitive than ortho or had a bunch of unqualified ppl applying. What do you think is more likely?

Congrats on matching. Great achievement. But don't let your excitement blind you.

Dude, let it go. You have no basis for your argument. Let it be known to people actually applying for urology that it was quite competitive this year and appears to be a highly sought-after field. Again, this forum is for people applying for urology. You matched ophtho, way to go. You have no basis for giving advice to other people applying to UROLOGY. If you want to fight about whether ophtho vs uro vs ortho vs ent vs whatever-you-feel-like-ranking is more competitive, start your own thread somewhere else.

 

[rocketbooster]

Dude, let it go. You have no basis for your argument. Let it be known to people actually applying for urology that it was quite competitive this year and appears to be a highly sought-after field. Again, this forum is for people applying for urology. You matched ophtho, way to go. You have no basis for giving advice to other people applying to UROLOGY. If you want to fight about whether ophtho vs uro vs ortho vs ent vs whatever-you-feel-like-ranking is more competitive, start your own thread somewhere else.

No, I agree with you. Urology is very sought after and competitive. And honestly I think ophtho and urology are about the same competitive-wise but both a little slightly easier than ortho and the rest. I don't know think "slight" is anything you can truly quantify, though. The ophtho Step 1 average was 239 this year, while ortho and ENT already had averages of 240 and 243 two years ago so I'm sure they're "slightly" more competitive. For all practical purposes, though, ppl in urology and ophtho can match to ortho and ENT and vice versa. Ophtho had a match rate at ~78% while urology was 64%. That's a huge difference and I'm just trying to point out the most likely explanation since they're both equally competitive. Ophtho is known to be more self-selective, meaning ppl think it's impossible (harder than ortho, etc.) to match so many ppl don't even bother applying. For urology, from what I've read on these forums, ppl historically thought urology was a little easier so more ppl apply. Obviously I cannot give you stats, but based on past urology match posts over the last few years, that seems to be the case.

And I'll actually be applying to ophtho this upcoming year and hope to be in your position next year!

 

[KinasePro]

For urology, from what I've read on these forums, ppl historically thought urology was a little easier so more ppl apply. Obviously I cannot give you stats, but based on past urology match posts over the last few years, that seems to be the case.

In all of my discussions with senior medical students/residents/physicians, urology has been widely touted as one of the most difficult specialties to match into, arguably moreso than ortho. It's always been known as an absurdly difficult match, UNC even lampooned its competitiveness in this popular downfall parody:
[YOUTUBE]k576hOI9FlM[/YOUTUBE]

note the punchline: "well, there's always ortho..."

You don't have to look hard on urology match to find applicants with 260+ step 1 and 15+ interviews who did not match. This idea of urology being an "easier" match seems to be a phenomenon of your institution & program, it's definitely not a widely held belief.

 

[rocketbooster]

In all of my discussions with senior medical students/residents/physicians, urology has been widely touted as one of the most difficult specialties to match into, arguably moreso than ortho. It's always been known as an absurdly difficult match, UNC even lampooned its competitiveness in this popular downfall parody:
[YOUTUBE]k576hOI9FlM[/YOUTUBE]

note the punchline: "well, there's always ortho..."

You don't have to look hard on urology match to find applicants with 260+ step 1 and 15+ interviews who did not match. This idea of urology being an "easier" match seems to be a phenomenon of your institution & program, it's definitely not a widely held belief.

hahaha that video is hilarious. Well done.

Brings up an interesting point when they made fun of literally all the **** you have to deal with in gen surg lol. Now don't take this the wrong way but...why would you even want to go into a field in which you deal with bladders, penises, prostates, and sticking your finger up ppl's butts on a regular basis? I personally think the kidneys are fascinating and looked into urology for that reason, but once I found out what you actually deal with on a regular basis then I quickly looked the other way toward ophtho. Pun intended.

 

[KinasePro]

why would you even want to go into a field in which you deal with bladders, penises, prostates, and sticking your finger up ppl's butts on a regular basis? I personally think the kidneys are fascinating and looked into urology for that reason, but once I found out what you actually deal with on a regular basis then I quickly looked the other way at ophtho. Pun intended.

It's a good video, but mostly because it supports my point .

Regarding the anatomy encountered in urology, I guess I just personally don't care what organ systems I treat. I'm more concerned interested in the procedures, day-to-day work, elegant surgical anatomy, interesting diagnostic studies, cutting edge technology, integrated nature of the GU system, etc...

 

[abmd]

uro is where all the cool people at.

 

[armybound]

uro is where all the cool people at.

and this is all that matters.

 

[AvB]

hey armybound, is ob-gyn actually important for uro? i'm pushing that rotation back after the match and was wondering if uro residency programs would care. i didnt realize that they'd want ob-gyn done before applying.

 

[rocketbooster]

Well homies, it's time to shed some light one that little argument we were having about the competiveness of urology and average Step 1 score.

The urology residency director at my school just gave a residency info session and provided the answers to our questions. Last year's Step 1 average was 238 and he specifically said urology was the least competitive of all the surgical subspecialties. He said the match rate has been <70% for years, so this year's numbers are doubtfully waaay higher.

Looks like I was right. Nonetheless, urology is still a very competitive field and their low match rate can only be explained because too many weak applicants are applying compared to other surgical subspecialties with much higher match rates.

 

[cpants]

Well homies, it's time to shed some light one that little argument we were having about the competiveness of urology and average Step 1 score.

The urology residency director at my school just gave a residency info session and provided the answers to our questions. Last year's Step 1 average was 238 and he specifically said urology was the least competitive of all the surgical subspecialties. He said the match rate has been <70% for years, so this year's numbers are doubtfully waaay higher.

Looks like I was right. Nonetheless, urology is still a very competitive field and their low match rate can only be explained because too many weak applicants are applying compared to other surgical subspecialties with much higher match rates.

Your program director is off base. The match rate has not been less than 70% for years, this is the lowest it has been in a while. Look it up, this is one of the few stats that the AUA publishes. Not sure where he's getting his 238 average...but if there were tons of low-scoring people applying wouldn't that bring the average way down?

Don't forget this 70% rate only includes people who submitted rank lists. If you are a weak applicant you won't get any interviews, and won't be able to submit a rank list. Ask your program director how many foreign grads he interviewed, how many DO's, how many people with a board score less than 220. My guess, zero. A few years back I went on more than 20 interviews. I probably met close to half of the applicants. You know how many DO's I met on the trail - one. You know how many foreign grads - zero.

Urology is extremely competitive. Which is the most competitive surgical subspecialty is a pretty dumb contest. GU is right up there with ENT, ortho, optho, plastics. If you apply without those kind of numbers, you will be disappointed with your outcome.

 

[rocketbooster]

Your program director is off base. The match rate has not been less than 70% for years, this is the lowest it has been in a while. Look it up, this is one of the few stats that the AUA publishes. Not sure where he's getting his 238 average...but if there were tons of low-scoring people applying wouldn't that bring the average way down?

Don't forget this 70% rate only includes people who submitted rank lists. If you are a weak applicant you won't get any interviews, and won't be able to submit a rank list. Ask your program director how many foreign grads he interviewed, how many DO's, how many people with a board score less than 220. My guess, zero. A few years back I went on more than 20 interviews. I probably met close to half of the applicants. You know how many DO's I met on the trail - one. You know how many foreign grads - zero.

Urology is extremely competitive. Which is the most competitive surgical subspecialty is a pretty dumb contest. GU is right up there with ENT, ortho, optho, plastics. If you apply without those kind of numbers, you will be disappointed with your outcome.

I agree with you 100%. My post was in response to a debate we were having above, though. It was just us comparing GU to the other surgical subspecialties. No one ever said GU is not competitive.

 

[uro9414]

Our program director said the average board score this year of all applicants that applied (this includes every single person who submitted an application -- matched, unmatched, and those that didn't submit lists) was a 243 with 11 point standard deviation. Our program received over 400 applications, and the program secretary actually extracted every board score from every application to get that number. I have a feeling that your program director was approximating based on what he thinks it probably is. Our program coordinator also extracted all the step 2 scores (granted only about 2/3 submitted a step 2 score), but that average was a 254! I took a look at the Charting Outcomes Data for other surgical subspecialties and most are in the 240s. We can all play the he said / she said game all day. And in the grand scheme of things a 238 and a 243 really aren't all that different of scores.

 

[2013match]

Well homies, it's time to shed some light one that little argument we were having about the competiveness of urology and average Step 1 score.

The urology residency director at my school just gave a residency info session and provided the answers to our questions. Last year's Step 1 average was 238 and he specifically said urology was the least competitive of all the surgical subspecialties. He said the match rate has been <70% for years, so this year's numbers are doubtfully waaay higher.

Looks like I was right. Nonetheless, urology is still a very competitive field and their low match rate can only be explained because too many weak applicants are applying compared to other surgical subspecialties with much higher match rates.

As far as competitiveness, urology is actually right up there with ortho, ENT, ophtho, and plastics. It is useless to argue which specialty is "more competitive" over a few points difference on Step 1. You can't look only at % matched to determine competitiveness, but you also can't look only at Step 1 when the averages are so close.

Youre also pretty set on this idea that tons of unqualified applicants apply to urology, making the match rate low. If there were tons of unqualified applicants, urology's step 1 average would be much lower. You would expect all those "crappy" applicants to drag the average way down, but the average according to your PD was "238". A massive influx of unqualified applicants to urology is really not the only possible explanation for urology's low match rate this year. The increase in applications could simply be due to increased interest in the specialty among MS4s. Just because you think "why would you even want to go into a field in which you deal with bladders, penises, prostates, and sticking your finger up ppl's butts on a regular basis?" does not mean everyone else sees it that way.

There are only 279 urology spots in the country. A small increase in # of applications can drastically change the match %, so I am not saying that urology must have suddenly spiked in popularity among hundreds of MS4s. Even 20-30 more applicants any given year can tip the scale.

Also, there are many replies here from people who applied to urology this year, interviewed across the country, and have had discussions with lots of well-informed PDs/ urology attendings on this topic. These people actually know what it's like to go through the urology application process, and they probably have a better idea of what it takes to match into the field. The average step 1 score they are quoting from the urology interview trail is probably the closest thing you can get to the real deal since AUA doesn't provide the stats-- No use continuing to argue with everyone over the average.

Like someone else already said, this idea that urology is not as competitive is most likely a phenomenon of your institution and program. Stating that your PD said uro was less competitive does not prove that you are right. We're all telling you that in most medical programs across the country, urology is not considered "less competitive" than the other surgical subspecialties.

 

[2013match]

http://www.auanet.org/content/residency/residency-match.cfm#statistics

 

[DoctwoB]

It's funny how rocketbooster is so involved in arguing this preconcieved notion that there are all these unqualified applicants applying to uro.

Don't get me wrong, as an applicant I would love for it to be true, it's just that everything I've seen points to the contrary.

 

[rocketbooster]

As far as competitiveness, urology is actually right up there with ortho, ENT, ophtho, and plastics. It is useless to argue which specialty is "more competitive" over a few points difference on Step 1. You can't look only at % matched to determine competitiveness, but you also can't look only at Step 1 when the averages are so close.

Youre also pretty set on this idea that tons of unqualified applicants apply to urology, making the match rate low. If there were tons of unqualified applicants, urology's step 1 average would be much lower. You would expect all those "crappy" applicants to drag the average way down, but the average according to your PD was "238". A massive influx of unqualified applicants to urology is really not the only possible explanation for urology's low match rate this year. The increase in applications could simply be due to increased interest in the specialty among MS4s. Just because you think "why would you even want to go into a field in which you deal with bladders, penises, prostates, and sticking your finger up ppl's butts on a regular basis?"does not mean everyone else sees it that way.

There are only 279 urology spots in the country. A small increase in # of applications can drastically change the match %, so I am not saying that urology must have suddenly spiked in popularity among hundreds of MS4s. Even 20-30 more applicants any given year can tip the scale.

Also, there are many replies here from people who applied to urology this year, interviewed across the country, and have had discussions with lots of well-informed PDs/ urology attendings on this topic. These people actually know what it's like to go through the urology application process, and they probably have a better idea of what it takes to match into the field. The average step 1 score they are quoting from the urology interview trail is probably the closest thing you can get to the real deal since AUA doesn't provide the stats-- No use continuing to argue with everyone over the average.

Like someone else already said, this idea that urology is not as competitive is most likely a phenomenon of your institution and program. Stating that your PD said uro was less competitive does not prove that you are right. We're all telling you that in most medical programs across the country, urology is not considered "less competitive" than the other surgical subspecialties.

Good post, good post.

Although I disagree with the bolded part, it's whatever. I actually got that notion from SDN. That seems to be the belief on all the SDN forums except for this one. I would think the other forums would be less biased on this topic than the urology forum. Then, on top of SDN, my program just reinforced the general belief that I read on here.

But yea anyway, good post. I think you're right about the small number of spots. A small increase in applicants could tip the match rate pretty easily. I mean, 270ish only? The other surgical sub-specialties probably have 400-500 spots each. So, yeah, I agree, your stance is a definite possibility. As for my point about more weak applicants applying, that could also be true with the Step 1 average still being high due to applicants with crazzzzy numbers balancing them out. If you had 30 more ppl with 220 applying this each year but then 15 more ppl with 260s applying, that'd balance it out. The Step 1 average would be maintained while the match rate drops. I know those numbers do not fully account for the real stats, but I think you get my point.