FP anyone?

[HmanPath]

Who will be starting a FP fellowship in 2018? Cheers.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Iceman24]

Hopefully, I will

 

[mlw03]

Been there, done that. Where you guys hoping to go?

 

[HmanPath]

UNM

 

[deleted314957]

UNM

UNM had a very good name for FP even back in my day. Other biggies were
Baltimore(me), Miami, NYC, Chicago.

 

[mlw03]

UNM

Very solid program. Everyone knows and many of us work with UNM disciples. Dr. Nolte runs a tight ship. Work hard and you'll learn a lot and be ready to work at any office in the English-speaking world.

 

[HmanPath]

UNM had a very good name for FP even back in my day. Other biggies were
Baltimore(me), Miami, NYC, Chicago.

I would also add Dallas to the list of well run, large programs.

 

[deleted314957]

I would also add Dallas to the list of well run, large programs.

Certainly.

 

[HmanPath]

Very solid program. Everyone knows and many of us work with UNM disciples. Dr. Nolte runs a tight ship. Work hard and you'll learn a lot and be ready to work at any office in the English-speaking world.

That is the general impression I got on my visit.

 

[mlw03]

I would also add Dallas to the list of well run, large programs.

Yeah, I'd agree with this one too.

The thing with FP is that there really are no 'bad' programs in the US. Programs mainly exist in large or medium sized cities that have enough volume to train however many fellows they have, and most FPs do like to teach and explain. It's an intrinsic part of what we do every time we testify or explain our findings to lawyers, police, or families. While there are some programs I'd recommend more than others, any accredited program will produce a good FP if the trainee does their part. I would still argue that the big 4 are NYC, Miami, Albuquerque, and Baltimore, but plenty of other quality programs for sure.

 

[HmanPath]

Nobody else for fellowship? That is hard to believe.

 

[mlw03]

No it's not. There are about 45 FP fellows per academic year in the US. Maybe 1 or 2 per year seem to participate on here.

 

[HmanPath]

No it's not. There are about 45 FP fellows per academic year in the US. Maybe 1 or 2 per year seem to participate on here.

I guess I thought there might be more on here.

 

[Ziehl-Neelsen]

While there are some programs I'd recommend more than others, any accredited program will produce a good FP if the trainee does their part. I would still argue that the big 4 are NYC, Miami, Albuquerque, and Baltimore, but plenty of other quality programs for sure.

A buddy of mine and excellent forensic pathologist (by my own estimation) did fellowship at the Fulton County ME's Office in Atlanta and had only excellent things to say about it.

Not that my opinion means anything, but I'd be interested in doing a fellowship where I'd be sure to get a lot of forensic anthropology experience--and programs near the US-Mexico border generally have that in spades. For that reason I might take a look at lesser known programs like San Antonio or Tucson.

 

[Iceman24]

Been there, done that. Where you guys hoping to go?

NYC.
Great atmosphere, very academically oriented program (a little bit of a surprise for me), a lot of support from attendings.

 

[mlw03]

A buddy of mine and excellent forensic pathologist (by my own estimation) did fellowship at the Fulton County ME's Office in Atlanta and had only excellent things to say about it.

Not that my opinion means anything, but I'd be interested in doing a fellowship where I'd be sure to get a lot of forensic anthropology experience--and programs near the US-Mexico border generally have that in spades. For that reason I might take a look at lesser known programs like San Antonio or Tucson.

Tuscon just started offering a fellowship. I know a lot of their staff - great group of guys and gals, and yes, they very much get more anthro experience than a lot of other places because of the geography and climate.

 

[HmanPath]

NYC.
Great atmosphere, very academically oriented program (a little bit of a surprise for me), a lot of support from attendings.

I would have liked to interview there, but was unable to get away for a visiting rotation. Apparently it is still necessary.

 

[Iceman24]

I would have liked to interview there, but was unable to get away for a visiting rotation. Apparently it is still necessary.

I feel your pain, bro
I'm doing this rotation right now and my paperwork wasn't sign until the very LAST day. Our program (and hospital in general) almost never send trainees for outside rotations because we are big academic center and we have everything we need in place. NYC forensic pathology audition rotation is one of the very few exceptions. It was still a significant resistance from the GME office side.
Anyway, this is a great learning opportunity and even if I will not be chosen for the fellowship this month still will be very helpful for my future career.

 

[HmanPath]

I feel your pain, bro
I'm doing this rotation right now and my paperwork wasn't sign until the very LAST day. Our program (and hospital in general) almost never send trainees for outside rotations because we are big academic center and we have everything we need in place. NYC forensic pathology audition rotation is one of the very few exceptions. It was still a significant resistance from the GME office side.
Anyway, this is a great learning opportunity and even if I will not be chosen for the fellowship this month still will be very helpful for my future career.

Sounds great, good luck!

 

[deleted314957]

A buddy of mine and excellent forensic pathologist (by my own estimation) did fellowship at the Fulton County ME's Office in Atlanta and had only excellent things to say about it.

Not that my opinion means anything, but I'd be interested in doing a fellowship where I'd be sure to get a lot of forensic anthropology experience--and programs near the US-Mexico border generally have that in spades. For that reason I might take a look at lesser known programs like San Antonio or Tucson.

When I went thru FP in the 80's (Baltimore/AFIP) there was a great 2 week forensic anthropology course at the American Museum of Natural History in DC.
The late Dr. Lawrence Angel ran it. The access to specimens was unbeatable.
It would be worth checking to see if it is still offered. It may have been an AFIP
thing, in which case it would be, sadly, no more.

 

[mlw03]

When I went thru FP in the 80's (Baltimore/AFIP) there was a great 2 week forensic anthropology course at the American Museum of Natural History in DC.
The late Dr. Lawrence Angel ran it. The access to specimens was unbeatable.
It would be worth checking to see if it is still offered. It may have been an AFIP
thing, in which case it would be, sadly, no more.

When I did the Maryland fellowship in 2011-2012, this was not offered. There was a shorter anthro course we did at the OCME that was quite good.

 

[Ziehl-Neelsen]

When I went thru FP in the 80's (Baltimore/AFIP) there was a great 2 week forensic anthropology course at the American Museum of Natural History in DC.
The late Dr. Lawrence Angel ran it. The access to specimens was unbeatable.
It would be worth checking to see if it is still offered. It may have been an AFIP
thing, in which case it would be, sadly, no more.

When I started residency the AFIP was GCS=9. All forensic research and education had ceased at the AFIP and it wasn't long before OAFME/AFMES completely separated from the AFIP and moved north to Dover AFB (by way of Rockville). By the time I finished residency the AFIP was in Cheyne-Stokes Respiration.

When I went thru FP in the 80's (Baltimore/AFIP)

When I did the Maryland fellowship in 2011-2012

A veritable reunion. My time at the Maryland OCME was between you two, but I fondly remember walking to Lex Market after a morning of cutting for lunch at Polock Johnnies or Faidley's. I'd walk back to the office, bum a cig from a certain female forensic pathologist smoking in the parking lot and spend the early afternoon with the nutshell dioramas (http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...essner_lee_forensic_science_and_training.html). I hope the diorama collection made it to the new office.

 

[deleted314957]

When I started residency the AFIP was GCS=9. All forensic research and education had ceased at the AFIP and it wasn't long before OAFME/AFMES completely separated from the AFIP and moved north to Dover AFB (by way of Rockville). By the time I finished residency the AFIP was in Cheyne-Stokes Respiration.




A veritable reunion. My time at the Maryland OCME was between you two, but I fondly remember walking to Lex Market after a morning of cutting for lunch at Polock Johnnies or Faidley's. I'd walk back to the office, bum a cig from a certain female forensic pathologist smoking in the parking lot and spend the early afternoon with the nutshell dioramas (http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...essner_lee_forensic_science_and_training.html). I hope the diorama collection made it to the new office.

Wow! I'll bet her initials were A.D. Russell Fisher had just died when I started
And they had a temp chief until John Smialek took over. Poor guy was a real health nut/runner and he literally dropped dead at his scope a couple years later.
Lexington mkt was wonderful!

 

[mlw03]

Glad you guys have fond Baltimore memories. I hated the place. To be clear, I mean living in Baltimore, not the fellowship. The program is fine - solid training for sure. But if there's a more horrific place to live than Baltimore, I can't think of it. There's a reason that when I was there, of the 14 staff pathologists, only 1 lived in the city itself. Why they don't move the Baltimore OCME to a nice suburban location between DC and Baltimore off 295, I don't know.

Wow! I'll bet her initials were A.D. Russell Fisher had just died when I started
And they had a temp chief until John Smialek took over. Poor guy was a real health nut/runner and he literally dropped dead at his scope a couple years later.
Lexington mkt was wonderful!

 

[deleted314957]

Glad you guys have fond Baltimore memories. I hated the place. To be clear, I mean living in Baltimore, not the fellowship. The program is fine - solid training for sure. But if there's a more horrific place to live than Baltimore, I can't think of it. There's a reason that when I was there, of the 14 staff pathologists, only 1 lived in the city itself. Why they don't move the Baltimore OCME to a nice suburban location between DC and Baltimore off 295, I don't know.

I know what you mean. I lived in Columbia MD for the year. Expensive place but being in the military made it tolerable. We had little kids so an apt in Baltimore would not have been cool. Plus , I had to spend sig time in DC. I don't think they would ever move it because of all the homicides and the cops, courts, etc that that all entails.

 

[Iceman24]

I would also add Dallas to the list of well run, large programs.

Large? Sure. Well run - I would disagree.

Yeah, I'd agree with this one too.

The thing with FP is that there really are no 'bad' programs in the US. I would still argue that the big 4 are NYC, Miami, Albuquerque, and Baltimore, but plenty of other quality programs for sure.

Dear mlw03, it is clear that you are an extremely intelligent and polite person, but let's be honest, a lot of places around the country use fellowship program not much because they love to teach, but rather to catch up with huge workload (and I am not blaming them at all). Will you get good variety of cases in such a "body farms" (no offense to Tennessee? Yes, I bet you will. Is it going to be a good teaching there? Hmm, we all know the answer.

No it's not. There are about 45 FP fellows per academic year in the US. Maybe 1 or 2 per year seem to participate on here.

Also, don't forget that (according to ASCP surveys, or I may have read it somewhere else), handful of these ~35-45 "newly minted" MEs never practice forensic pathology. I have no idea why, but these people really do graduate but don't go into FP eventually.

I would have liked to interview there, but was unable to get away for a visiting rotation. Apparently it is still necessary.

Another two cents here, a friend of mine came to NYC during his vacation time - it was no other way to go.

By the way, yesterday I received a response from NYC OCME - I'm accepted

 

[HmanPath]

Congrats on NYC!!

I suppose I could have considered other options to get time there, but no worries I will be going to UNM!

I also noticed the stats regarding about only half of newly minted FPs actually practicing. I guess they bail from medicine or find some sort of PP gig? Not sure.

Regarding Dallas; I did get the impression when interviewing that it was well run, but there is only so much one can gleam from a single day. Do you know fellows/residents whom have said otherwise? I think the former fellow I interviewed with said she had a hair over 250 cases for the year. I don't think any program will be perfect.

 

[mlw03]

Large? Sure. Well run - I would disagree.


Dear mlw03, it is clear that you are an extremely intelligent and polite person, but let's be honest, a lot of places around the country use fellowship program not much because they love to teach, but rather to catch up with huge workload (and I am not blaming them at all). Will you get good variety of cases in such a "body farms" (no offense to Tennessee? Yes, I bet you will. Is it going to be a good teaching there? Hmm, we all know the answer.


Also, don't forget that (according to ASCP surveys, or I may have read it somewhere else), handful of these ~35-45 "newly minted" MEs never practice forensic pathology. I have no idea why, but these people really do graduate but don't go into FP eventually.


Another two cents here, a friend of mine came to NYC during his vacation time - it was no other way to go.

By the way, yesterday I received a response from NYC OCME - I'm accepted

I'll agree with some, but not all, of those points. You're right that a few trainees a year don't ultimately do FP. I think some end up doing general surg path and those people were potentially just 'killing' a year (yes, pun intended), but I also know people who've done FP fellowships and also have done peds path or neuro, and those are excellent combos to have on one's resume.

As to the fellows as cheap labour... here I have to disagree. I just don't think that's the case. The net amount of time isn't that different, and if the fellow isn't that good, it's far more time consuming to have a trainee do a case versus just doing it yourself. I've reviewed multiple stabbing or GSW cases from a mediocre fellow. It's painful, and I'd have spent far less time in the net just doing the whole thing myself. I've talk to others across the US and Canada, and this seems to be the consensus. I teach out of a sense of obligation (people taught me, gotta pay it forward) and because if the trainee is solid, it can be somewhat enjoyable. Saving time and labour is not a reason. I'm not sure which places you're referring to as body farms with poor teaching. I really do believe that most programs are quite good. I'd be glad to discuss further via private message.

In any case, you seem to be going into FP for the right reasons, so I wish you luck in your training and perhaps we'll enjoy a beer together at a future AAFS or NAME meeting.

 

[Autopsy101]

Congrats on both NYC and UNM - both great programs!

 

[HmanPath]

Any practicing FPs do an additional fellowship in peds or neuro? If not, do you regret it? Just curious, thanks.

 

[mlw03]

Nope. Regret, no, but if you have the time and interest it's a great combo, neuro more than peds in my opinion.

 

[deleted314957]

Any practicing FPs do an additional fellowship in peds or neuro? If not, do you regret it? Just curious, thanks.

Historically, the neuropath carries some "chacet" if you aspire to a significant academic appointment at one of the OCME's that is closely associated with a local med school such as exists in Maryland and a number of other places. Peds, although less common, would probably carry the same "juice".

 

[HmanPath]

Thanks.