Freaking out over new charting the outcomes and my chances this cycle

[mrsmcfluffybutt]

I'm applying this year and my school's psych department hasn't been very helpful in guiding me through the whole process. I just went through the new charting the outcomes and saw how high the average step 1 has gone up. I'm worried that I am need to add more programs to my list or add less competitive programs. Could someone please tell me what I need to do or if I am ok? I am hoping to interview at 12-15 programs (if I get the offers). I have a step 1 score of 218, high pass in psych, pass in everything else, and step 2 of 229.

Here's what I've submitted to so far:
U of Arkansas
University of Colorado
Yale
U of South Florida
U of Florida
Emory
Northwestern
U of Illinois
U of Chicago
Rush
U of Louisville
John Hopkins
U of Maryland
U of Massachusetts
U of Michigan
Washington University
U of New Mexico
U of Rochester
U of North Carolina
Duke
U of Cincinnati
Thomas Jefferson
UPMC
University of Pennsylvania
Brown University
U of South Carolina
U of South Carolina Palmetto
Vanderbilt
U of Texas Southwestern (Austin)
U of Texas Southwestern (Dallas)
UT Medical Branch
Virginia Commonwealth
University of Virginia
U of Washington
West Virginia


Am I in ok shape? That's 35 programs but I know quite a few of them are probably more competitive than I ever have a chance at. Please give me honest feedback, I can take it and it would really help me.

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[hamstergang]

I'm a PGY-4 now. Your average step score is a little higher than mine, but my average clerkship grade was a little higher than yours. Of the placed you applied, 3 gave me interviews (Hopkins, Jefferson, and UMD). I got 9 other interviews in the area, having applied to 21 programs.

I don't know what that means for you, but it was my experience.

 

[BeastInfection]

I'm with you, OP. Similar scores, and wishing I hadn't looked. Also, an average of 4 pubs/abstracts/presentations (second highest peak in the 5+ category)? 3 separate work experiences? 7 volunteer positions? Ouch...

Are people double dipping this stuff, or have I been super unproductive in med school?

Also, I wonder (hope) that the results are a bit skewed. When I was registering for NRMP and it asked for my info for a data point, i was just going to skip it. I didn't in the end, but it made me wonder how many people with unexciting scores skip that section. I'd guess many more than those with high scores. Overall AOA for participants was 16%. Isn't AOA usually a top 10% type of thing? Just a thought, I may be way off.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

When you can land a $200,000 to $300,000 gig somewhere in the country, while enjoying what's arguably the best lifestyle of all doctors and practice just about anywhere, I'm not at all surprised to see Step 1 scores starting to creep up.

10 years from now I'll look back and say damn, I'm glad I jumped on that train before it became a flotilla in the sky.

 

[qwerty89]

I wouldn't put too much stock into the ave number of volunteer/research, etc experiences. It is too easy to BS all of it.

President of a club could be 1 entry or could be 4 depending on if you put each activity within the club as a separate entry.

PDs dont care and can sniff out resume padding.

 

[qwerty89]

When you can land a $200,000 to $300,000 gig somewhere in the country, while enjoying what's arguably the best lifestyle of all doctors and practice just about anywhere, I'm not at all surprised to see Step 1 scores starting to creep up.

10 years from now I'll look back and say damn, I'm glad I jumped on that train before it became a flotilla in the sky.

SPECIALTY / AVG STEP 1 SCORE 2014 / CHANGE FROM 2011
Plastic Surgery 245 (-4)
Radiology 241 (+1)
Rad Onc 241 (+1)
Derm 247 (+3)
Anesthesia 230 (+4)
FM 218 (+5)
Gen Surg 232 (+5)
IM 231 (+5)
Neurosurgery 244 (+5)
Neurology 230 (+5)
Ortho 245 (+5)
ENT 248 (+5)
Pathology 231 (+5)
Pediatrics 226 (+5)
OB/GYN 226 (+6)
PM&R 220 (+6)
Psych 220 (+6)
EM 230 (+7)

Average Step 1 scores have risen for all graduates, not just Psych.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

Actually, these numbers reveal trends. It's no accident Psych and PM&R saw the second largest jump behind EM, and Rads is seeing hardly any increase in score. Let's see how the applicant pools evolve over the next couple years.

These numbers tell me exactly what I expect.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Most are +5. If psych’s +6 is a significant increase in competitiveness, then plastic surgery’s -4 is a drop an order of magnitude larger than psych’s gain. Everyone needs to calm down. People have been saying psych is becoming more competitive since the first dip after the 70s. It is still only about 3% of domestic grads within a % over the last 30 years.

 

[lilek22]

Posting to follow as my step 1 scores are even worse and I'm in my psych rotation now. Hope I have a chance at some of these programs when I apply next year.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

So, yeah, psych isn't really getting more competitive, although I think there's been an overall increase in USMLE scores probably because of places like SDN where we talk a lot about how to study for these tests.

OP, my prediction is that you'll get interview offers from almost every program on your list. You're fine, and unless you submit a rank list composed of only say UCSF, MGH, Columbia and UCLA, you're going to match. Heck, you might even match with that list, but that's still a riskier strategy.

And thinking about the lifestyle aspects of psychiatry, psychiatry is a miserable field for lots (maybe most?) medical school type of people in spite of our light work hours. Lower pay and lower prestige are only part of why people don't go into psychiatry.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

I think the lower prestige comes primarily from both us and the other fields in medicine. Sometimes lay people can say things like “did you ever want to be a real doctor?”, but patients with mental illness don’t see us that way. The other fields of medicine make a lot of jokes about psychiatry. They also make a lot of jokes about almost everyone. Besides, I prefer to be in a field with a touch of humility. I can think of more examples than I care to of psychiatry professors who have managed to get drunk on their own prestige even despite our perceived lower prestige. All of this walking around searching for external validation of their importance has created such a vacuum it has given birth to all kinds of self-congratulating. Just look at the APA; member, fellow, distinguished fellow…. Personally, I’m holding out for royal mega uber exalted fellow; anything less just wouldn’t be consistent with my own view of self-importance.

Maybe I’ll start my own organization and begin with serf, minion, peasant…. Since these are based on years of paying dues, we should be able to just buy titles don’t you think?

 

[Psych56]

I'm applying this year and my school's psych department hasn't been very helpful in guiding me through the whole process. I just went through the new charting the outcomes and saw how high the average step 1 has gone up. I'm worried that I am need to add more programs to my list or add less competitive programs. Could someone please tell me what I need to do or if I am ok? I am hoping to interview at 12-15 programs (if I get the offers). I have a step 1 score of 218, high pass in psych, pass in everything else, and step 2 of 229.

Here's what I've submitted to so far:
U of Arkansas
University of Colorado
Yale
U of South Florida
U of Florida
Emory
Northwestern
U of Illinois
U of Chicago
Rush
U of Louisville
John Hopkins
U of Maryland
U of Massachusetts
U of Michigan
Washington University
U of New Mexico
U of Rochester
U of North Carolina
Duke
U of Cincinnati
Thomas Jefferson
UPMC
University of Pennsylvania
Brown University
U of South Carolina
U of South Carolina Palmetto
Vanderbilt
U of Texas Southwestern (Austin)
U of Texas Southwestern (Dallas)
UT Medical Branch
Virginia Commonwealth
University of Virginia
U of Washington
West Virginia


Am I in ok shape? That's 35 programs but I know quite a few of them are probably more competitive than I ever have a chance at. Please give me honest feedback, I can take it and it would really help me.

Well shoot, I'm now freaking out. I have the same board scores as you with no red flags and I applied to 14 programs! I didn't think I'd need more than that!

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Well shoot, I'm now freaking out. I have the same board scores as you with no red flags and I applied to 14 programs! I didn't think I'd need more than that!

If 14 doesn't do it, 30 won't do it either. Don't worry 14 will do it.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Maybe I’ll start my own organization and begin with serf, minion, peasant…. Since these are based on years of paying dues, we should be able to just buy titles don’t you think?

But we already have students, interns, and residents...

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I'm with you, OP. Similar scores, and wishing I hadn't looked. Also, an average of 4 pubs/abstracts/presentations (second highest peak in the 5+ category)? 3 separate work experiences? 7 volunteer positions? Ouch...

Are people double dipping this stuff, or have I been super unproductive in med school?

Also, I wonder (hope) that the results are a bit skewed. When I was registering for NRMP and it asked for my info for a data point, i was just going to skip it. I didn't in the end, but it made me wonder how many people with unexciting scores skip that section. I'd guess many more than those with high scores. Overall AOA for participants was 16%. Isn't AOA usually a top 10% type of thing? Just a thought, I may be way off.

About the number of experiences, those include undergrad, not just medical school. I don't think ERAS separates that stuff out. 3 separate work experiences can include that fast food job you had in college. And yes people do pad things -- volunteer positions can include a one day thing that you did. And again that includes college and before medical school stuff. Even though some of these numbers seem high, you'll see that very, very few US MD grads don't match even without research or lots of other work/volunteer experiences. Close to 100% of applicants who rank more than ~4 (need to double check the report) places match. Sure, random bad things happen, but it's really rare. Unfortunately, it's harder to figure out US DO odds (although I think they too are quite high) because they're lumped in with IMGs and transfers and whatnot.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

I'm applying this year and my school's psych department hasn't been very helpful in guiding me through the whole process. I just went through the new charting the outcomes and saw how high the average step 1 has gone up. I'm worried that I am need to add more programs to my list or add less competitive programs. Could someone please tell me what I need to do or if I am ok? I am hoping to interview at 12-15 programs (if I get the offers). I have a step 1 score of 218, high pass in psych, pass in everything else, and step 2 of 229.

Here's what I've submitted to so far:
U of Arkansas
University of Colorado
Yale
U of South Florida
U of Florida
Emory
Northwestern
U of Illinois
U of Chicago
Rush
U of Louisville
John Hopkins
U of Maryland
U of Massachusetts
U of Michigan
Washington University
U of New Mexico
U of Rochester
U of North Carolina
Duke
U of Cincinnati
Thomas Jefferson
UPMC
University of Pennsylvania
Brown University
U of South Carolina
U of South Carolina Palmetto
Vanderbilt
U of Texas Southwestern (Austin)
U of Texas Southwestern (Dallas)
UT Medical Branch
Virginia Commonwealth
University of Virginia
U of Washington
West Virginia


Am I in ok shape? That's 35 programs but I know quite a few of them are probably more competitive than I ever have a chance at. Please give me honest feedback, I can take it and it would really help me.

You are actually a very solid applicant for psychiatry. I wouldn't pay that much attention to the NRMP charting data. As other people have said, scores in general are going up, but psychiatry still is not competitive. I would, however, cut that list down. You might do well with the following, taken from your list

Northeast: Yale, Penn, Brown (for anyone who disagrees... Halsted went to rehab at Butler Hospital, so yeah)
Mid Atlantic: Hopkins, Pitt
Midwest: Wash U, Michigan, Northwestern, University of Chicago, UIC
South: Duke, UNC, Emory, Vanderbilt, UTSW
Northwest: Univ. Washington

That's 16... I'd add in a backup or two and maybe MGH/Columbia just to see.

 

[Monocles]

You are actually a very solid applicant for psychiatry. I wouldn't pay that much attention to the NRMP charting data. As other people have said, scores in general are going up, but psychiatry still is not competitive. I would, however, cut that list down. You might do well with the following, taken from your list

Northeast: Yale, Penn, Brown (for anyone who disagrees... Halsted went to rehab at Butler Hospital, so yeah)
Mid Atlantic: Hopkins, Pitt
Midwest: Wash U, Michigan, Northwestern, University of Chicago, UIC
South: Duke, UNC, Emory, Vanderbilt, UTSW
Northwest: Univ. Washington

That's 16... I'd add in a backup or two and maybe MGH/Columbia just to see.

Does MGH/Columbia have step 1 cut-offs? I've searched around and can never seem to find an answer. In the other what are your chances threads, there are people with 230s an 240s being told that MGH is a reach for them and those with 210s and 220s being encouraged to apply... (I'm guessing there's a lot of other factors involved too?) I guess anedoctally do you know of residents in top programs with 210 and 220 scores?

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

Does MGH/Columbia have step 1 cut-offs? I've searched around and can never seem to find an answer. In the other what are your chances threads, there are people with 230s an 240s being told that MGH is a reach for them and those with 210s and 220s being encouraged to apply... (I'm guessing there's a lot of other factors involved too?) I guess anedoctally do you know of residents in top programs with 210 and 220 scores?

No psychiatry program of which I am aware has a specific Step 1 cutoff. Psychiatry is NOT that competitive. That said, people notice scores, and people like scores. But getting >250 does not guarantee one an interview at Columbia or MGH (unless you attend a top 10-15ish med school), but people with lower scores definitely interview there. Other factors actually do matter.

Hopefully the following will put you at ease: last year, when I was applying, I called the residency coordinator of a residency program that most people would consider "elite" because I had a question, and I got the voicemail, which had a long, detailed message. Included in that message was that for the most recent class (matched in March 2013), the average MATCHED applicant Step 1 score was 211. So, the point is that you do not have to smash Step 1 to match into a great psychiatry residency!

 

[BeastInfection]

About the number of experiences, those include undergrad, not just medical school. I don't think ERAS separates that stuff out. 3 separate work experiences can include that fast food job you had in college. And yes people do pad things -- volunteer positions can include a one day thing that you did. And again that includes college and before medical school stuff. Even though some of these numbers seem high, you'll see that very, very few US MD grads don't match even without research or lots of other work/volunteer experiences. Close to 100% of applicants who rank more than ~4 (need to double check the report) places match. Sure, random bad things happen, but it's really rare. Unfortunately, it's harder to figure out US DO odds (although I think they too are quite high) because they're lumped in with IMGs and transfers and whatnot.

Yikes, I didn't include any of my college volunteer stuff, it all just seemed inconsequential at this point. Hopefully that doesn't hurt. Oh well, not much to be done about it now. Thanks for the reassurance!

 

[TexasPhysician]

OP is quite competitive. Likely applied to 2x the number of programs needed to interview at 12-14 places.

 

[Monocles]

No psychiatry program of which I am aware has a specific Step 1 cutoff. Psychiatry is NOT that competitive. That said, people notice scores, and people like scores. But getting >250 does not guarantee one an interview at Columbia or MGH (unless you attend a top 10-15ish med school), but people with lower scores definitely interview there. Other factors actually do matter.

Hopefully the following will put you at ease: last year, when I was applying, I called the residency coordinator of a residency program that most people would consider "elite" because I had a question, and I got the voicemail, which had a long, detailed message. Included in that message was that for the most recent class (matched in March 2013), the average MATCHED applicant Step 1 score was 211. So, the point is that you do not have to smash Step 1 to match into a great psychiatry residency!

This actually does make me feels a lot better, thanks!!

 

[Dharma]

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