Fuller Theological Seminary PsyD Program

[LAPsyGuy]

I've heard the Fuller's comp exam is literally an EPPP dry run. I was not impressed when I heard this, and it seems to be a weakness in their program.

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[CaliforniaPsyD]

I didn't read your other post so I'm sorry if you addressed this, but are you open/in favor of their religious integration?

Thanks, and yes I am open/in favor of Fuller's strong Christian integration. The lack of it also doesn't sway me away from PGSP, though.

 

[CaliforniaPsyD]

I've heard the Fuller's comp exam is literally an EPPP dry run. I was not impressed when I heard this, and it seems to be a weakness in their program.

Hi LAPsyGuy, that's actually really helpful to know but can you explain why prepping early for the EPPP would be a bad thing? I've never looked into the EPPP exam itself so I'm not familiar with why you wouldn't want a dry run in grad school.

 

[MCParent]

I've heard the Fuller's comp exam is literally an EPPP dry run. I was not impressed when I heard this, and it seems to be a weakness in their program.

I'm pretty fine with this. Some ecological validity for something relevant. There have been recommendations to make the EPPP BE quals.

 

[CaliforniaPsyD]

Although this is anecdotal, Fuller PhD students are often more competitive than their PsyD counterparts. I want to also say their PsyD cohorts are huge. Also keep in mind that you will have to take courses toward a M.Div. In the LA Area, whether you get an APA internship or not is also very dependent on the types of practicum sites you train at. Training at one of the local VAs (LB, Sepulveda, Downtown, Loma Linda), UCLA Semel, Cedars, Patton, or other "big name" sites are your best bet. However, these sites are among the most competitive in an area with 11ty psychology programs. Given how many psychologists are in the LA/Pasadena/IE area it is VERY easy for students to settle by doing practicums at small, local CMHs or private practices. While this might meet degree requirements, you will be sorely disappointed come internship time when no one has heard of "Joe Pepitone's Pasadena Psychological Services."

Are Fuller PhD students more competitive because they have more research experience or because their application has PhD written at the top?
In the past 3 years its cohort size was 12, 17, and 11. http://fuller.edu/uploadedFiles/Sit...of_Theology(2)/CATS/2015 PsyD C-20 Tables.pdf It used to be closer to 20 but they seem to be dropping that. Is this considered big?

 

[CaliforniaPsyD]

I'm pretty fine with this. Some ecological validity for something relevant. There have been recommendations to make the EPPP BE quals.

That's what logically makes sense to me. What is the downside of a qualifying exam being a dry run for the EPPP? Isn't that like if my undergrad english/math finals had been GRE section practice tests?

 

[CaliforniaPsyD]

Negative is fine. I ask for clarification or challenge a viewpoint for more information when I don't understand it. You guys seem to be out in the field, largely, whereas I have graduated undergrad. I don't know a lot of this information or it is purely anecdotal for me, so a generalized negative statement, especially one that runs contrary to what I've heard or what mentors have told me, is something I need more information about to see if it applies to me or is a concern based on my personal/professional goals, interests, economic standing, etc.

Just to clarify: you want advice but don't want to hear anything negative about your plan?

 

[MCParent]

Are Fuller PhD students more competitive because they have more research experience or because their application has PhD written at the top?
In the past 3 years its cohort size was 12, 17, and 11. http://fuller.edu/uploadedFiles/Siteroot/Academics/School_of_Theology(2)/CATS/2015 PsyD C-20 Tables.pdf It used to be closer to 20 but they seem to be dropping that. Is this considered big?

if they can't match 80% of them to apa sites, it is too big.

 

[CaliforniaPsyD]

Yeah..... sometimes people post about the expensive schools saying "I've got the money handled." Really? You're rich? Because rich people don't get rich by blowing a quarter million....

All the schools I have applied/been accepted to cost similarly to Fuller so I want to take money off the table since that's not a deciding factor. On this forum it's not an issue that will help me decide. So would you say that picking a higher nationally ranked school outweighs further building pre-existing local network? How would people in my network help me get into internship or post-docs? Isn't that out of their control or can contacts help?

 

[erg923]

Negative is fine. I ask for clarification or challenge a viewpoint for more information when I don't understand it. You guys seem to be out in the field, largely, whereas I have graduated undergrad. I don't know a lot of this information or it is purely anecdotal for me, so a generalized negative statement, especially one that runs contrary to what I've heard or what mentors have told me, is something I need more information about to see if it applies to me or is a concern based on my personal/professional goals, interests, economic standing, etc.

It would help if you disclosed what "mentors" have told you. See my post #27.

 

[CaliforniaPsyD]

if they can't match 80% of them to apa sites, it is too big.

A current student at a different LA based school wrote to me saying that many students don't attain an APA internship because they only apply for local LA-based internships. She claimed that many students at her school, which is actually ranked higher than Fuller, are so determined to stay in LA for various reasons that they choose that over an APA-accredited internship out of state. Is it possible this weighs down the stats or is this a factor at every school? Not sure whether to take this with a grain of salt or not.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

That's what logically makes sense to me. What is the downside of a qualifying exam being a dry run for the EPPP? Isn't that like if my undergrad english/math finals had been GRE section practice tests?

I have trouble believing that the EPPP is the best indicator that you've developed the understanding and skills the programs are attempting to impart to their students. It seems more like an attempt to ensure better pass rates.

 

[erg923]

I have trouble believing that the EPPP is the best indicator that you've developed the understanding and skills the programs are attempting to impart to their students. It seems more like an attempt to ensure better pass rates.

We agree. The world must be ending tonight at midnight!

 

[Justanothergrad]

I have trouble believing that the EPPP is the best indicator that you've developed the understanding and skills the programs are attempting to impart to their students. It seems more like an attempt to ensure better pass rates.

The counter argument is that if you pass comprehensive exams in a program yet fail the EPPP then you have failed the benchmark (no matter how dumb or poorly designed it is; looking at you I/O questions) that determines competency. There is utility to demonstrating competency in the manner that the field defines 'competency to practice' otherwise there is no metric to compare what competency might be.

Best indicator? nope.
Good indicator? debatable for sure.
Standard of the field? without question.

A current student at a different LA based school wrote to me saying that many students don't attain an APA internship because they only apply for local LA-based internships. She claimed that many students at her school, which is actually ranked higher than Fuller, are so determined to stay in LA for various reasons that they choose that over an APA-accredited internship out of state. Is it possible this weighs down the stats or is this a factor at every school? Not sure whether to take this with a grain of salt or not.

a lack of APA accred limits you in a number of ways. Some places won't consider you for future employment ever (ex. VA if your internship wasn't at a VA). Transportability and license eligibility are much harder. You also will be at internship sites with less developed training procedures making your training (frequently) not as good and more prone to problems without recourse. There is a simple reason people tell you to get an APA accredited program/internship. It's because its a good idea and offers the best training.

I would take that advice with a salt block.

 

[MCParent]

A current student at a different LA based school wrote to me saying that many students don't attain an APA internship because they only apply for local LA-based internships. She claimed that many students at her school, which is actually ranked higher than Fuller, are so determined to stay in LA for various reasons that they choose that over an APA-accredited internship out of state. Is it possible this weighs down the stats or is this a factor at every school? Not sure whether to take this with a grain of salt or not.

a. I doubt that is true, or is the modal reason why APA accredited sites are not regularly secured.
b. If it is true it suggests bad things about selection and training at the site, to me.

 

[smalltownpsych]

a. I doubt that is true, or is the modal reason why APA accredited sites are not regularly secured.
b. If it is true it suggests bad things about selection and training at the site, to me.

It was true in my LA based program. We had about 80% APA match, but the 3 or 4 who didn't were restricting themselves to the area. You have to take into account the socal mindset. It's like the Hotel California, "check out anytime you want, but you can never leave." I'll tell you this though, my internship helped me escape and I ain't goin' back.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

We agree. The world must be ending tonight at midnight!

Classy as always.

 

[WisNeuro]

A current student at a different LA based school wrote to me saying that many students don't attain an APA internship because they only apply for local LA-based internships. She claimed that many students at her school, which is actually ranked higher than Fuller, are so determined to stay in LA for various reasons that they choose that over an APA-accredited internship out of state. Is it possible this weighs down the stats or is this a factor at every school? Not sure whether to take this with a grain of salt or not.

I've seen a good share of apps from Fuller at 3 sites that I have been affiliated with (Midwest - not as many, South-good amount, Pacific Northwest- a lot), they are applying, they just aren't competitive when compared to the applicant group as a whole.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

Fuller seems very focused on independent and private practice. Is this your goal? If no, or you're unsure, this program can restrict your options later.

 

[Okazaki Frag Grenade]

I've seen a good share of apps from Fuller at 3 sites that I have been affiliated with (Midwest - not as many, South-good amount, Pacific Northwest- a lot), they are applying, they just aren't competitive when compared to the applicant group as a whole.

Out of curiosity, what makes them less competitive? Practicum hours + level of training at practicum sites, research experience, etc ?

 

[WisNeuro]

Out of curiosity, what makes them less competitive? Practicum hours + level of training at practicum sites, research experience, etc ?

Research experience has been the biggest. I've been at sites where research training is valued in clinicians. But, even after that, unimpressive practica and just "meh" letters of rec. Especially in neuro, a smaller field, we all kind of know each other, so the rep of your letter writers is very important.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I've heard the Fuller's comp exam is literally an EPPP dry run. I was not impressed when I heard this, and it seems to be a weakness in their program.

This actually seems like a really good idea to me. So many comps are hoop-jumping monuments to uselessness (e.g., "write a full research proposal on a topic we know you know nothing about without references in 9 hours") that I have to support the idea of ones that actually have some practical relevance.

 

[smalltownpsych]

This actually seems like a really good idea to me. So many comps are hoop-jumping monuments to uselessness (e.g., "write a full research proposal on a topic we know you know nothing about without references in 9 hours") that I have to support the idea of ones that actually have some practical relevance.

Our comps were based solely on demonstrating competency in clinical work. One psychotherapy case and one assessment case. A panel of two faculty raked us over the coals on it and it was an anxiety provoking, but valuable learning experience. The EPPP for a comp would have been much less effective IMO.

 

[CaliforniaPsyD]

Fuller seems very focused on independent and private practice. Is this your goal? If no, or you're unsure, this program can restrict your options later.

Yes that's definitively my goal. I may like to supplement it with something else as many do, like liaising with a local hospital's psychiatric wards and ER department for evaluations or something unforeseen based on interests I discover during grad school, but if none of that ever happens and I am solely private practice that's fine. That's why I chose PsyD as opposed to a PhD, as research and teaching are not something I wish to pursue post grad. I have a lot of interest in working with veterans but in not sure if I would want to work at the VA because, and please correct me if I'm wrong, typically PsyD graduates do not work part time at the VA and also have a private practice (my top priority).


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[smalltownpsych]

This actually seems like a really good idea to me. So many comps are hoop-jumping monuments to uselessness (e.g., "write a full research proposal on a topic we know you know nothing about without references in 9 hours") that I have to support the idea of ones that actually have some practical relevance.

Oh yeah, and that is the stupidest test I ever heard of. Writing a research proposal/lit review? Like who can't do that by grad school and how does that demonstrate competency?

 

[Ollie123]

Our comps were based solely on demonstrating competency in clinical work. One psychotherapy case and one assessment case. A panel of two faculty raked us over the coals on it and it was an anxiety provoking, but valuable learning experience. The EPPP for a comp would have been much less effective IMO.

That seems much more meaningful than the norm. I also know a school that allowed students to submit an NIH or equivalent grant app (typically an F31) in lieu of traditional comps. That also seemed like an excellent way to go about it and at least offers way more face validity with regards to what real-world psychologists are actually doing. Ours were useless, but at least didn't require any formal preparation beyond generally having your act together as a grad student (no real way to study for them - you know your stuff/can find resources quickly or you can't).

 

[CaliforniaPsyD]

Research experience has been the biggest. I've been at sites where research training is valued in clinicians. But, even after that, unimpressive practica and just "meh" letters of rec. Especially in neuro, a smaller field, we all kind of know each other, so the rep of your letter writers is very important.

That makes me feel a lot better because my CV is teeming with research experience all of high caliber as are my research presentations and APA publications. I will keep working on my research and start new projects in grad school wherever I end up. I've never had any interest in working in neuro so maybe my private practice goal indicates a SLIGHTLY easier road ahead...perhaps.


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[WisNeuro]

That makes me feel a lot better because my CV is teeming with research experience all of high caliber as are my research presentations and APA publications. I will keep working on my research and start new projects in grad school wherever I end up. I've never had any interest in working in neuro so maybe my private practice goal indicates a SLIGHTLY easier road ahead...perhaps.

If your CV is teeming with research, why not get into a fully-funded program that leans clinical? You do know that the vast majority of us from fully funded programs, even those that are research heavy, go on to primarily clinical careers?

 

[boomshakalaka]

The counter argument is that if you pass comprehensive exams in a program yet fail the EPPP then you have failed the benchmark (no matter how dumb or poorly designed it is; looking at you I/O questions) that determines competency. There is utility to demonstrating competency in the manner that the field defines 'competency to practice' otherwise there is no metric to compare what competency might be.

Best indicator? nope.
Good indicator? debatable for sure.
Standard of the field? without question.


a lack of APA accred limits you in a number of ways. Some places won't consider you for future employment ever (ex. VA if your internship wasn't at a VA). Transportability and license eligibility are much harder. You also will be at internship sites with less developed training procedures making your training (frequently) not as good and more prone to problems without recourse. There is a simple reason people tell you to get an APA accredited program/internship. It's because its a good idea and offers the best training.

I would take that advice with a salt block.

It was true in my LA based program. We had about 80% APA match, but the 3 or 4 who didn't were restricting themselves to the area. You have to take into account the socal mindset. It's like the Hotel California, "check out anytime you want, but you can never leave." I'll tell you this though, my internship helped me escape and I ain't goin' back.

Definitely can't underestimate the SoCal mindset. This was almost the exact experience in my program. A few fairly unmotivated individuals that wanted to "just" do LA-based internships (often non-APA) and private practice. I guess it helps to have a rich uncle and be a member at Bushwood.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I guess it helps to have a rich uncle and be a member at Bushwood.

(I totally agree with your full post, I just wanted to comment on this part)

No and yes. Most people aren't going to pay $200 (or more)/appt for someone who went to Joe's Autobody & Psychology Emporium...aka not a name-brand Uni. They get their medical care at UCLA, have a concierge doc (UCLA/Stanford/Harvard) for primary care, and expect similiar credentials from their other providers. This goes double for the country club/social club types, at least that's been my experience at my country club and social club.
/club life...

 

[CaliforniaPsyD]

I have trouble believing that the EPPP is the best indicator that you've developed the understanding and skills the programs are attempting to impart to their students. It seems more like an attempt to ensure better pass rates.

Well since I have to pass the EPPP that doesn't seem like such a bad thing. My final exams can ensure I know the information

If your CV is teeming with research, why not get into a fully-funded program that leans clinical? You do know that the vast majority of us from fully funded programs, even those that are research heavy, go on to primarily clinical careers?

Because research isn't my passion. It's not something I wish to pursue nor have highlighted in my program. I want to choose my own research be it affiliated with my program or if I stick with the projects I am working on already. I'm set on PsyD since clinical work is what/all I want to do.

 

[CaliforniaPsyD]

Definitely can't underestimate the SoCal mindset. This was almost the exact experience in my program. A few fairly unmotivated individuals that wanted to "just" do LA-based internships (often non-APA) and private practice. I guess it helps to have a rich uncle and be a member at Bushwood.

That's great to know, that at least some of the discrepency of low APA match rates may correspond to less motivated students determined to stay in LA for internship.

 

[CaliforniaPsyD]

That's great to know, that at least some of the discrepency of low APA match rates may correspond to less motivated students determined to stay in LA for internship.

I would also guess that, especially at the highly religous schools as many LA programs are, some students need to stay in LA for their spouses/children?

 

[Lurking Oracle]

Definitely can't underestimate the SoCal mindset. This was almost the exact experience in my program. A few fairly unmotivated individuals that wanted to "just" do LA-based internships (often non-APA) and private practice. I guess it helps to have a rich uncle and be a member at Bushwood.

This phenomenon is not unique to SoCal. I definitely encounter it here in NYC from the native New Yorkers (aka, New Yorkers by Chance of Birth).

 

[MCParent]

Because research isn't my passion. It's not something I wish to pursue nor have highlighted in my program. I want to choose my own research be it affiliated with my program or if I stick with the projects I am working on already. I'm set on PsyD since clinical work is what/all I want to do.

Check the APPIC stats. PhDs graduate with the same or more hours in therapy and assessment compared to PsyDs, every single year.
No PhD program could sustain producing only researchers. Even research-heavy ones, with the exception of the couple ultra-research places, produce mostly clinicians. I'm a research-focused faculty and I'm happy to train people who want to be clinicians and do a little bit of research that applies to their area of clinical interest, and then go out and do good empirically-based clinical work.