Future vets please don't do this

[rawrcakes]

http://dogblog.dogster.com/2010/02/...ter&utm_medium=title+link&utm_campaign=100302
Please don't make sudden movements. I don't know the whole story, and you may not care, but if you are going to be in the vet profession read it?
I don't really know what to say to you besides to try to to do this, or at least try your hardest not to let the animal die.

And if you have to be treated for a bite, find a friend that is a nurse, so that they can set you up. haha My aunt already said i can go in the back if i get bit haha

on a side note, if you read my other threads(and care) i am not doing vet school The biology would be too hard haha. I rather do business and many animal related classes.

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[RordOfTheMBKT]

This makes me rage.

1. Small dogs are going to bite you. You cant really stop it. Big dogs can be held easily and safely. If a little dog wants to bite you, you can bet hes gonna do it.
2. Why was the owner the one holding the dog? The ****?
3.(goes with both points 1 and 2) for dental procedures, you are supposed to sedate the ****ing dog. You cant just hold a dog down and drill on its teeth.

I dont have a facepalm or rage jpeg big enough for this...

 

[quantized]

There's two sides to every story, including the one that was linked in the followup to that story.
http://dogblog.dogster.com/2010/02/26/spork-update/
http://static.cbslocal.com/station/kcnc/docs/2010/02/spork.PDF
Sounds like the tech got pretty messed up. Reporting a dog bite that sends someone to the hospital is a law, it has nothing to do with wanting the dog to be killed. It's a matter of public safety, mostly due to fear of rabies, but also because dog bites can be serious and can happen to people and children other than just some vet tech.

 

[lazyjayn]

I dunno... I kinda liked one of the comments on the second dogblog post-

I looked at the "picture"- It did not look that bad- she goofed up in not muzzling a known fearful dog w/ an infected tooth

I'm trying to figure out how ya do dental work on a muzzled dog...

-j.

 

[Perfbird]

I dunno... I kinda liked one of the comments on the second dogblog post-

Quote:
I looked at the “picture”- It did not look that bad- she goofed up in not muzzling a known fearful dog w/ an infected tooth
I'm trying to figure out how ya do dental work on a muzzled dog...

-j.

At all the places I work at, if a dog is a fearful biter or seems bad with medical handling, we muzzle it while we give the sedation drugs then take it off for the procedure. I think it's pretty common practice.

3.(goes with both points 1 and 2) for dental procedures, you are supposed to sedate the ****ing dog. You cant just hold a dog down and drill on its teeth.

No clinic I've heard of ever does dentals with an awake dog. Sedatives/anesthesia (as far as I've seen) are always used. They weren't trying to do the dental on an awake dog, I think the tech was just taking the dog from the owner.

 

[lazyjayn]

Makes rather more sense... it was just an interesting mental picture...

i guess i have to come down on the side of "wow, that was stupid"... i mean, who lets one of the little rat-dog-monsters get that close to their face without hanibal lecter gear, anyway?

Sorry, my bias against small dogs is showing again.

-j.

 

[thereservoirdog]

There's a difference between a tech reporting the dog bite for rabies purposes and actually filing charges. I feel sorry for whoever hired this tech, because you know in such a small city everyone is going to hear this story and that hospital is going to lose a LOT of business. Edit: Just read that letter and the DVM actually supports her filing charges.

Getting bit while working at a veterinary hospital is all part of the game. If you get bit, it's your fault(or maybe whoever is holding). Heck, just looking at how those owners treat it like a baby, you should just assume it's gonna bite!

 

[zeebra44]

This makes me rage.

1. Small dogs are going to bite you. You cant really stop it. Big dogs can be held easily and safely. If a little dog wants to bite you, you can bet hes gonna do it.
2. Why was the owner the one holding the dog? The ****?
3.(goes with both points 1 and 2) for dental procedures, you are supposed to sedate the ****ing dog. You cant just hold a dog down and drill on its teeth.

I dont have a facepalm or rage jpeg big enough for this...

Yeah, that's outrageous. Working as an assistant, if an owner gave me the line, "Aww, I'll hold him, he'll be less scared that way", I put my foot down. I understand that some people view their pets as children, but I'm not getting my lips ripped off for it.

 

[Azarael]

This is ridiculous. Doesn't the vet tech know that accidents happen in a field like this? Doesn't the vet tech know that you -will- be bit at some point while working at an animal hospital? It's the tech's own fault for putting herself in the position to be hurt by the animal! It's the staff's responsibility to work with difficult pets, not the other way around.

I agree that once the town of Lafayette discovers that they can't bring their animals to a hospital for fear of being sued if their animal bites a tech, that hospital is going to lose a lot of business.

 

[dyachei]

I think the most disturbing part about this is that people really think its part of the job to be bitten like that (not necessarily people on SDN, but people on the dogster site). It's one thing to be nipped at or scratched, and you do take the risk of being bitten, but in my experience, there are some dogs you really can't approach safely, and those dogs should be sedated by the owners before they come in. As for not being muzzled, if what the owners said was true, and he'd never bitten before, I can see a vet tech not muzzling that dog. Or the owners might not have wanted a muzzle because he's their "precious angel" or whatever. It seemed like he was being handed over to be taken to the back and the vet tech was bitten, they weren't doing dental procedures on him awake. And regardless of him being a nervous dog, bad calls in judgment happen, but I can't really blame the vet tech for suing as her lips were bitten off.

I know this isn't going to be a popular point of view. This kind of incident is why I really dislike pampered, small dogs. Most of them feel comfortable biting at people because they've never been told no.

 

[ImaJerseyGirl]

.

 

[DVMDream]

I think the most disturbing part about this is that people really think its part of the job to be bitten like that (not necessarily people on SDN, but people on the dogster site). It's one thing to be nipped at or scratched, and you do take the risk of being bitten, but in my experience, there are some dogs you really can't approach safely, and those dogs should be sedated by the owners before they come in. As for not being muzzled, if what the owners said was true, and he'd never bitten before, I can see a vet tech not muzzling that dog. Or the owners might not have wanted a muzzle because he's their "precious angel" or whatever. It seemed like he was being handed over to be taken to the back and the vet tech was bitten, they weren't doing dental procedures on him awake. And regardless of him being a nervous dog, bad calls in judgment happen, but I can't really blame the vet tech for suing as her lips were bitten off.

I know this isn't going to be a popular point of view. This kind of incident is why I really dislike pampered, small dogs. Most of them feel comfortable biting at people because they've never been told no.

I actually kind of agree with your view point. The article from Jasper AH stated that they had seen this dog multiple times and while the dog was slightly nervous this was the first time it ever attempted to bite. As a vet tech I have seen many, many dogs come in that are nervous but never bite (yes, I am much slower with them and much more cautious). It seems as though the owner was trying to hand the little pampered thing over to the tech when it snapped at her. As for getting the dog away from the owner first or picking it up from the exam table, I have actually had worse luck doing it that way. The dog becomes much more fearful, IMO. I usually have the owner hand the dog over to me backwards (with the dog's butt facing me) this way the dog really does not know what is going on and does not have enough time to react. According to what the owners and Jasper AH said about this dog we would not have muzzled the dog while it was in the exam room (it was only nervous had never bitten in the many times seen before). Now, as a vet tech I understand that being bitten is at times a part of the job and at times the bite can be severe. So personally I would not have filed charges against the dog/owners. I would have just submitted the bite report and been done with it, but again there could easily be much more to this story that we do not know. This is a very good example of why I can not stand small, pampered dogs.

Another part of the story that makes me soo mad is when the owner goes, "So that is like dog bite 101 section 1 which is don't violate the dog's space." Really? How else am I supposed to do ANYTHING to your dog at a vet clinic if I do not touch it?

Here is my response: Owner of small dog 101: DO NOT PAMPER YOUR DOG AND TREAT IT LIKE A BABY!!!

Ok..end rant.

 

[Bearby]

Getting bit while working at a veterinary hospital is all part of the game. If you get bit, it's your fault(or maybe whoever is holding).

In come cases, this may be true. However, I have worked with many patients who lunged at me with teeth beared just for walking into a room. Thankfully, these owners were aware of how aggressive their pets were and had them on a short leash. What about times when no one is touching the animal? I had a cat a couple of weeks ago who had never been aggressive in the past but was acting very fearful. I grabbed a towel and our cat gloves and tried to get her out of the carrier and she swung around and still bit me. It wasn't a nasty bite, but the point is that things can happen even when you're taking the necessary precautions. I'm not saying that this was the case with this tech because I wasn't there, but a friend of mine who was a tech much longer than I have been was bit by a boston on the lip when she put him down on the floor, he just turned around and bit her.

Yeah, that's outrageous. Working as an assistant, if an owner gave me the line, "Aww, I'll hold him, he'll be less scared that way", I put my foot down. I understand that some people view their pets as children, but I'm not getting my lips ripped off for it.

We have signs in all of our exam rooms stating that for your safety and the safety of your pet, the technicians will handle the dog. We do have a couple of clients that are allowed to handle their own dogs, but these are dogs that come into the clinic muzzled and sedated and you still can't look at them if someone else touches them.

This kind of incident is why I really dislike pampered, small dogs. Most of them feel comfortable biting at people because they've never been told no.

This is one of my biggest pet peeves. I understand that the little dogs are cute and tiny so people feel bad telling them no. I also understand that many people think these little guys can't do much harm. The truth of the matter is, that if you took a poll of all the dog bites on humans I have a strong suspicion that the small dogs would contribute more. I try not to make assumptions about any breed of dog. I don't automatically go for a muzzle when a chow or a sharpei comes in, however chihuahuas are the most terrifying little critters out there. Still, I don't just go into a room with a muzzle unless I know the animal or there are alerts all over the file.

I do try to take precautions by either having the owner put the dog on the floor or exam table for me to take it back, or if the dog won't leave the owners arms, we've taught them how to pass the dogs to us in a safe way. I think one of the most important things for vet clinics to do is educate clients on socialization and handling. It's one of the things we talk about in the first puppy visit a dog has. By allowing more than just one or two people to handle the dog and bringing the dog in for happy vet visits (just coming in to get weighed and get a treat), the number of these incidents could probably slowly be cut down.

 

[bunnity]

So let's pretend it was a pit bull, and the girl's injuries were exactly the same. I bet we'd be seeing a totally different story.

At the shelter the little yappy dogs get chances 3, 4, 5, and 6 when they bite people. Because they will still get adopted, and because oh they're little, they won't do that much damage. And they sit there taking up cages while healthy nice big dogs are being put to sleep. To me a biter is a biter. This dog's breed should not matter - any biting dog can kill a child that runs up to it and waves something in its face.

 

[Tobysgirl81]

There was an incident within the last year at the clinic where I work that a dog, who had shown zero aggression in the past, bit a student on the face. He was wagging his tail, another person stood up from doing an exam, the other student leaned down to follow up and he lunged forward and bit her on the chin. She required several stitches. There was no warning, there had been no signs in the past, and he still bit her.

I don't believe that "Oh, well, you work with animals so you HAVE to know you'll get bit/kicked/mauled" is an acceptable answer. ESPECIALLY not by people in this profession. That's exactly the sort of attitude that allows it to continue to happen - we say it, clients hear it, and then they don't think Fluffy needs to be restrained or taught any manners. I can think of many opportunities I've had to get bitten, or scratched or kicked and thankfully have made it through without any serious injuries which didn't need to happen. I also believe we need to support our fellow doctors and techs when they get involved in cases such as this instead of chastise them for getting bitten. Even in the best of circumstances with all precautions taken, crap happens.

My guess is, depending on the extent of the damage, the tech wished to get compensation for her medical expenses. If my dog bit the lips off of someone I'd be the first one offering to pay for the treatment. My dog, my responsibility, my liability. It is not just intrinsically "a hazard of the job", and if owners want to believe that then we need to start demanding "hazard pay" for our time and services.

I won't say much more than this, but I hope you all learn to love your techs because they will be the ones to save your butt when you're in clinics. As for the small dog bashing - a dog is only as good as it's owner. My two small dogs are the easiest pups to work with, but any dog that's spoiled (little or big) runs the risk of being a pain in the butt and a potentially mean dog! I agree that the balance APPEARS to lean towards small dogs, but I can tell you about some NASTY labs and goldens too.

 

[zeebra44]

So let's pretend it was a pit bull, and the girl's injuries were exactly the same. I bet we'd be seeing a totally different story.

At the shelter the little yappy dogs get chances 3, 4, 5, and 6 when they bite people. Because they will still get adopted, and because oh they're little, they won't do that much damage. And they sit there taking up cages while healthy nice big dogs are being put to sleep. To me a biter is a biter. This dog's breed should not matter - any biting dog can kill a child that runs up to it and waves something in its face.

EXCELLENT point!

Edit: This too, Toby! " It is not just intrinsically "a hazard of the job", and if owners want to believe that then we need to start demanding "hazard pay" for our time and services"

 

[katryn]

I honestly think I'm more angry at the media coverage than anything else. If you dig into the statements from officials and the vet hospital, they don't want the dog euthanized, or even really locked away for life. In fact it really wouldn't surprise me if the only reason the vet tech filed charges was for medical recompensation.

My 2 cents:
1. Injuries are *not* a hazard to the job. Are they somewhat expected? Yes, I expect to be bitten and scratched to a certain extent. I also expect it to happen in cases where precautions have been taken(if called for), and it truly is just an accident. That being said, I also expect myself, my co-workers, and the animals owners to have taken the right precautions.

2. I think the head of Jasper AH had a really good point. He (and assumably the tech) don't really want this dog euthanized. It doesn't even sound like they really want this dog punished. They just want it recorded, so that if it happens again the right steps can be taken. First bite offenders don't deserve critical punishment.....but 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc offenders do. For that to happen, it needs to be recorded.

3. On the issue of "dogs who bite vets might bite children"....this is true. I think this is a double sided issue of good pet parenting and good child parenting. After all, a dog who is leashed and being actively engaged by it's owner to behave well and muzzled can still do injury to a child who runs up and smacks it in the face. Who's fault is that? The owner of the "vicious" but well controlled dog, or the parent who didn't bother to teach their children not to smack dogs in the face?

 

[alliecat44]

I don't believe that "Oh, well, you work with animals so you HAVE to know you'll get bit/kicked/mauled" is an acceptable answer. ESPECIALLY not by people in this profession. That's exactly the sort of attitude that allows it to continue to happen - we say it, clients hear it, and then they don't think Fluffy needs to be restrained or taught any manners. I can think of many opportunities I've had to get bitten, or scratched or kicked and thankfully have made it through without any serious injuries which didn't need to happen. I also believe we need to support our fellow doctors and techs when they get involved in cases such as this instead of chastise them for getting bitten. Even in the best of circumstances with all precautions taken, crap happens.

My guess is, depending on the extent of the damage, the tech wished to get compensation for her medical expenses. If my dog bit the lips off of someone I'd be the first one offering to pay for the treatment. My dog, my responsibility, my liability. It is not just intrinsically "a hazard of the job", and if owners want to believe that then we need to start demanding "hazard pay" for our time and services.

I won't say much more than this, but I hope you all learn to love your techs because they will be the ones to save your butt when you're in clinics.

This, times 1,000,000.

Can't believe people on here--in the profession or hoping to be--think that you "deserve" to get bitten just because you're in a veterinary hospital. There are responsibilities that come with pet ownership--and one of those is to ensure your dog is well-socialiized.

What if this was you--as the veterinarian--taking the pet back and he mauled your face? Or your hands--and you lost a finger and weren't able to do surgery for the rest of your career?

Excellent (and very relevant) points!!!

 

[Whyevernot55]

It's been said, but I HAVE to chime in because I feel strongly about this.

I come into the profession KNOWING the risks of working with cats/dogs/horses/whatever other animals. I've had my fair share of all of the above, and I've got the scars to show for it.
That does NOT mean it's OK for me to be bitten by a vicious animal just because I work in a vet clinic. Does that mean it would be ok for this dog to bite a child who came up to it in the park and tried to pet it? Certainly not! Here's a fun example. A 6yo 17.2hh Warmblood gelding boarding in a barn has a history of aggression - charging at a handler while being lunged or led, nipping, striking. He is aggressive with the vet and the farrier, and needs to be sedated to be handled. The vet gets kicked in the knee.
A week later, the horse is standing in the crossties while his stall is being mucked. A tour walks through the barn, a parent wanders down the aisle away from the tour, and the horse becomes agitated and kicks her in the CHEST.
True story. The horse had a LONG history of being a mean SOB. Was it OK for him to kick the vet in the knee, which could have seriously crippled him, but not OK for the parent to get kicked in the chest, where she could have died? Sure the vet knows the risks, but in the situation with the parent the horse was utterly unprovoked and lashed out anyways. Don't you think this horse should have been evicted from the barn sooner, based on a long history of problems with experienced handlers? Don't you think that would make it even more likely that someone with no idea what they're doing could get injured?

We all know that animals react badly sometimes. Even animals who have no history of aggression, or who have simply been nervous but easily handled by an experienced person. But it's NOT OK for this poor tech to have her face bitten and then the dog gets all the sympathy. There's this cool thing called "bite inhibition."

For the record, the horse in the above story was shipped out of the barn 3 days later. And all persons were fortunately not seriously injured.

 

[NStarz]

Completely agree. How depressing is that? It's almost like racism for dogs. My trainer friend, certified CDC (by the SFSPCA), got mauled in the face by a shih tzu. Her upper lip got torn off. I'd take a pitty any day of the week!!!!

The sad part is, the shih was adopted out, but the first sign of stress from a pitty, and the dog is PTS.

Another point that some people have touched on as well...
We should NOT expect to be bitten, but we SHOULD expect the animal to be stressed beyond belief when they enter a veterinary office. Dogs view the world as safe or unsafe. When an animal (I'm restricting to dogs because they often give signs before biting, and I don't know much about cat behavior :/) is stressed, they show signs. They may be slight--hair on the back my stand up, lips may curl, eyes dilate, panting, sneezing, TAIL WAGGING, yawning, etc. The fact is that in veterinary offices, dogs are stressed. They smell other animals whom they are not allowed to see, they smell illness, and they smell death. It's very unfortunate, but it's the case.

That being said, the dog is on edge. While we should not be preparing ourselves for a bite, we should be ALWAYS alert to watch for signs of stress, which are inherent in the environment we work in. Many of the things we do, restraint, staring into a dog's eyes (ie, penlight), leaning over them, etc. are threatening to the dog, and they may behave as such.

I know animals (my own cat, for instance), that go completely bonkers in a veterinarian's office but are perfectly fine otherwise. The stress has a lot to do with it. So I don't think a dog should automatically be put to sleep because it bit (depending on severity, of course) in a vet's office, where the dog is stressed.

That being said, that behavior is a snapshot in time. Because the dog bit when it was stresse, that means the dogs has the capacity to bite when it is stressed. Will that dog bite when it is happy and playing? Probably not. But because it has bitten, it will be more likely to bite next time it is in a similar situation, which is where the owner's knowledge of their animals comes in.

I think what I'm getting at is that we should be knowledgable of the situation the animals are being placed in--complete and utter chaos, for them, and be respectful of the boundaries they are giving us.

I'd taking a growling dog any day of the way--they're giving you a warning (and it's frankly your fault if you don't heed it and subsequently get bitten!!).

Interesting discussion, guys.

So let's pretend it was a pit bull, and the girl's injuries were exactly the same. I bet we'd be seeing a totally different story.

At the shelter the little yappy dogs get chances 3, 4, 5, and 6 when they bite people. Because they will still get adopted, and because oh they're little, they won't do that much damage. And they sit there taking up cages while healthy nice big dogs are being put to sleep. To me a biter is a biter. This dog's breed should not matter - any biting dog can kill a child that runs up to it and waves something in its face.

 

[Azarael]

I dunno. I still disagree with most of the viewpoints here.

For this particular situation, you can't draw conclusions from examples of pets who are known to be violent or aggressive when brought into an animal hospital, because there isn't really any evidence showing that this doxen was that way. Although I do agree that, in those types of cases, the owner should be responsible for taking at least some precautionary measures (keeping the dog on a leash, muzzling if possible, bringing cat in a crate, warning the veterinarian, etc.) before bringing their pet in.

This situation appears to have happened spontaneously. Nobody could have predicted it. I don't see the basis for any argument that this vet tech has in suing the pet's owners. (This includes medical reimbursement. In my experience, it is the hospital manager who would be responsible for worker's compensation.) How is it the owner's or the pet's fault for what happened? Nobody could have predicted it. The tech should be expected to know how to handle pets without being hurt. The tech should also know that accidents do happen, and that we shouldn't expect animals in the clinic to behave, well, nicely. I'm not trying to say that what happened was "okay". It's not. If the tech really got her lip bit off, that's horrible. But she shouldn't sue the owners for what happened, and I don't think the pet should be euthanized for it.

I think that it's very naive to believe that one can spend 30+ years working with animals without having anything go wrong. We should know that accidents will happen. As (hopeful) professionals, we should expect to witness animal bites, and we need to do our best to prevent them. This means we should handle every animal with caution to prevent things like this from happening. And if we don't... well, it's our fault. And I know that even in a cautious environment things go wrong. In that case, it's not really anyone's fault. But we should understand that there is that risk because we will never be able to predict how an animal will behave 100% of the time.

Sorry if you can't believe it, but that's just the way I see it. Thoughts?

 

[NStarz]

I dunno. I still disagree with most of the viewpoints here.
The tech should be expected to know how to handle pets without being hurt. The tech should also know that accidents do happen, and that we shouldn't expect animals in the clinic to behave, well, nicely.

I think that it's very naive to believe that one can spend 30+ years working with animals without having anything go wrong. We should know that accidents will happen. As (hopeful) professionals, we should expect to witness animal bites, and we need to do our best to prevent them. This means we should handle every animal with caution to prevent things like this from happening. And if we don't... well, it's our fault. And I know that even in a cautious environment things go wrong. In that case, it's not really anyone's fault. But we should understand that there is that risk because we will never be able to predict how an animal will behave 100% of the time.

Sorry if you can't believe it, but that's just the way I see it. Thoughts?

Agree!!! The fact of the matter is that dogs react they only ways they know how. They were not evolutionarily programmed (bad use of words, but I can't think of anything better atm) to sit down and have a powwow about things that bother them. They growl to tell you to back off (most of the time, unless the dog in question has had this growling behavior negatively reinforced or it has not worked in the past or genetics come into play). If you don't back off, they bite, simple as that.

I think we, as future professionals, need to be very considerate of the burden we place on pet owners and their companions. I mean, we don't expect ourselves to be perfect all the time (mistake, anyone?), but we expect our dogs to sit every time we tell them to, come every time they're called, and love every single stranger and situation they come across.

 

[Whyevernot55]

I dunno. I still disagree with most of the viewpoints here.

For this particular situation, you can't draw conclusions from examples of pets who are known to be violent or aggressive when brought into an animal hospital, because there isn't really any evidence showing that this doxen was that way. Although I do agree that, in those types of cases, the owner should be responsible for taking at least some precautionary measures (keeping the dog on a leash, muzzling if possible, bringing cat in a crate, warning the veterinarian, etc.) before bringing their pet in.

This situation appears to have happened spontaneously. Nobody could have predicted it. I don't see the basis for any argument that this vet tech has in suing the pet's owners. (This includes medical reimbursement. In my experience, it is the hospital manager who would be responsible for worker's compensation.) How is it the owner's or the pet's fault for what happened? Nobody could have predicted it. The tech should be expected to know how to handle pets without being hurt. The tech should also know that accidents do happen, and that we shouldn't expect animals in the clinic to behave, well, nicely. I'm not trying to say that what happened was "okay". It's not. If the tech really got her lip bit off, that's horrible. But she shouldn't sue the owners for what happened, and I don't think the pet should be euthanized for it.

I think that it's very naive to believe that one can spend 30+ years working with animals without having anything go wrong. We should know that accidents will happen. As (hopeful) professionals, we should expect to witness animal bites, and we need to do our best to prevent them. This means we should handle every animal with caution to prevent things like this from happening. And if we don't... well, it's our fault. And I know that even in a cautious environment things go wrong. In that case, it's not really anyone's fault. But we should understand that there is that risk because we will never be able to predict how an animal will behave 100% of the time.

Sorry if you can't believe it, but that's just the way I see it. Thoughts?

Animal restraint is obviously one of our most important skills - I don't think any of us disagree about that! But it just ISN'T always possible to protect yourself. One of our techs got a black eye from a cat who LAUNCHED ACROSS THE ROOM at her. Cat sitting on the floor, cat launching through air. Predictable? I think not. No one is arguing that you should expect never to be injured - we all KNOW the risks, accidents happen, blah blah blah.

I think the big lesson is that veterinary professionals need to be trained in animal behavior in order to be able to read animals correctly and protect themselves better. But there are situations with poorly socialized and untrained animals where it is absolutely impossible to safely handle an animal without sedation (and preferably other restraint, such as stocks, a twitch, a muzzle, whatever). If the owner has completely failed to socialize their animal, that's their liability. Again, what if a dog attacks someone while they're out on a walk because the person enters their space? Or if someone walks past the yard and the dog is outside? We had to euthanize a dog last year who bit a mailman while they were on a walk. You had better believe the owners were liable for that. The dog's behavior escalated and there is absolutely no sense in taking the risk of the dog seriously maiming or killing someone when there are thousands and thousands of perfectly sweet, well-socialized animals in need of homes being euthanized every day.
My personal opinion is that the owners of this doxie should be responsible for the cost of the tech's medical bills - although I'm not sure of the logistics of worker's comp coverage on this. Wouldn't you feel terrible if your dog ripped someone's face off? Wouldn't you be worried that the next time, it would be a child? A family member? Or you, for that matter?

 

[david594]

They growl to tell you to back off (most of the time, unless the dog in question has had this growling behavior negatively reinforced or it has not worked in the past or genetics come into play).

You mean punished, not negatively reinforced. Negative reinforcement is the taking away of something(bad) to increase a behavior. Positive and Negative Punishment are the ways you would go about reducing a behavior.

 

[sumstorm]

I come from the zoo field where we do expect to be bitten, kicked, scratched etc. And generally we have no one to blame but humans for it so all staff are taught early on that the goal is to maximize safety, but there are no guarantees. However, having said that, we knew our liability insurance would cover the injuries, including necessary reconstruction, and we recorded all bites, cuts, scratches, etc no matter how minor. However, there are quite a few examples of where I could see an individual or the zoo being sued for injuries to workers.

No matter what, this bite needs to be reported. I have had experience with animals that 'never bit anybody' but that when you backtracked, they bit someone is county A, and another person in county B, and another just over the state line. Not saying that is the situation in this case, but either way an official record should be made. I was one of those individuals who was the fifth person bit, in the face, by a dog. In this case, I wanted the dog put down (it was beyond aggressive).... it was not until the dog bit another tech in the face just over state lines that the owners euthanized it. If it hadn't happened at a vets, she wouldn't have known about the incident with me at another vets, and the AC's wouldn't have tracked down the four previous (that we know of) bites. The dog came over a waist high barrier while in the waiting room without any warning (or if he was warning, it was beneath his coat..he was a chow) and nailed me in the face, requireing surgery, and cocerns about my visual acuity in the left eye for a while. I was not interacting with the dog; I was returning files to the completed pile.

Here is what else I learned; liability covered repair, not restoration. For the plastic surgery that made me look normal, I had to use my personal health insurance. Fortunatly, unlike many vet techs, I had insurance.

I don't know what the case is here; I don't trust media with details. I accept that there is a risk of being bitten, but I also know when one is looking at 5-6 figure costs and minimal coverage, people start looking for solutions. Hopefully, if the suit is inappropriate, it will be thrown out. I also do think our clients do have some responsibility. For example, failure to have a dog on a leash would be neglecting their responsibility (and I see LOTS of dogs come into clinics and the school hospital without leashes.) I was grateful when the owner of the chow that bit me was hit with a heavy fine. I didn't get any money out of it, but for this person I felt it was the only consequence that would have any affect on him. May make me a terrible person, but I am the one grateful to have a face! And for everyone saying 'kid on the street'....how about kid in the waiting room....we have plenty of those!

 

[ImaJerseyGirl]

.

 

[DVMDream]

So my first reply was after only watching that video and then reading a couple of the articles. This tech is looking at complete reconstructive surgery because an entire inch was taken off of not only her top lip but also her bottom lip. An entire two inches of flesh ripped off from her face! So I would probably attempt to get them to pay for some type of medical treatment. What it sounds like happened from what the tech said was that the dog was sitting in the owner's lap in the lobby (A dog that they have dealt with before that has not been aggressive before so why would you muzzle?) and she came out to take it to the back of the clinic for the dental when the dog bit her in the face. So the tech was not even doing anything remotely uncomfortbale to the dog and the way I see it is that this dog is unpredictable. Now the article also mentions that the owner did not see the bite which allows me to believe that she was not paying any attention to what was going on and was also probably not controlling her dog in the lobby of a vet clinic. What would the case be if a kid or any other person other than an employee happened to walk up to this dog and the dog had done the same thing? Is it now ok for those people to sue the owners of the dog? Also, it mentioned that the city/county (?) were the ones to charge the owners with a vicious dog charge which would only require them to keep the dog on leash, controlled at all times and be sure the dog can not get out of the yard. The owners decided to pursue it further by taking the charges to court in an attempt to get them thrown out. This may only be the first incident for this dog but in order to have multiple reports (to determine if a dog really is vicious) it has to be reported. As professionals we do need to keep in mind that the animals we deal with can be dangerous but there is a certain line between an animal that claws or bites because you are attempting to poke it with an needle or shove a thermometer up its butt and an animal that tries to bite anytime you get near it. Also as professionals we need to be teaching owners the proper ways to socialize their animals so that they are not fearful or protective like this. A dog should not be "pampered and treated like a baby" it causes them to react like what happened here.

We had a client bring in their dog already muzzled but the muzzle was too big for the dog. When one of the technicians walked into the room (with a smaller muzzle in hand to place over the big one) the dog lunged at her and left a good sized bruise on her knee had this dog not had a muzzle on at the time there could have been serious damage that was no fault of the tech and should not just be considered "oh well that is a part of the job; that is the risk you take." There is definitely a fine line between "injuries are a part of the job" and "severe bites that were not provoked and could have happened to any person that got near that animal that day."

 

[NStarz]

You mean punished, not negatively reinforced. Negative reinforcement is the taking away of something(bad) to increase a behavior. Positive and Negative Punishment are the ways you would go
about reducing a behavior.

Good catch! Sorry, my brain was fried from a cell bio test.

 

[PrimalMU]

doxen

Doxen? Really?!

 

[rawrcakes]

The doggie could have had a bad day too.
Most of your comments are not to baby your doggie, mine is wayyyyy babied. But she is my baby. She doesn't attack the vets though because she is to scared. When we are places and i am holding her and they stick their hand out then she barks and snaps. She is in classes and i am supposed to "be stricter" so that may make her stop that. But it might make the vet worse. I doubt it though. The only time mine has bitten the vet techs is when they do her nails, since she hates people touching her nails. But if she does bit someone multiple times and faces dying, i am willing to move out of the country or hire a million super good vets and mafia members and pay off the government But i am super protective of any animal put in that situation. Once when i was like 10 i got so mad at this guy because his son got bit i guess by a dog and had to go to the er, and i figured they would kill the dog. Like i super mad. But for you people in the vetmed profession, they should make you take an animal psychology class so you know their body language and how to deal with it. That might prevent some things. The government needs to let my baby go into stores and food places, since she is not going to run wild, and she is clean unlike some kids who run wild draw on everything, and are dirty and have lice. haha but i guess some people ruin it. I am babbling on, so i should stop and find another boredom killer.

 

[Whyevernot55]

 

[DVMDream]

The doggie could have had a bad day too.
Most of your comments are not to baby your doggie, mine is wayyyyy babied. But she is my baby. She doesn't attack the vets though because she is to scared. When we are places and i am holding her and they stick their hand out then she barks and snaps. She is in classes and i am supposed to "be stricter" so that may make her stop that. But it might make the vet worse. I doubt it though. The only time mine has bitten the vet techs is when they do her nails, since she hates people touching her nails. But if she does bit someone multiple times and faces dying, i am willing to move out of the country or hire a million super good vets and mafia members and pay off the government But i am super protective of any animal put in that situation. Once when i was like 10 i got so mad at this guy because his son got bit i guess by a dog and had to go to the er, and i figured they would kill the dog. Like i super mad. But for you people in the vetmed profession, they should make you take an animal psychology class so you know their body language and how to deal with it. That might prevent some things. The government needs to let my baby go into stores and food places, since she is not going to run wild, and she is clean unlike some kids who run wild draw on everything, and are dirty and have lice. haha but i guess some people ruin it. I am babbling on, so i should stop and find another boredom killer.

 

[starlene45]

Yeah, that's outrageous. Working as an assistant, if an owner gave me the line, "Aww, I'll hold him, he'll be less scared that way", I put my foot down. I understand that some people view their pets as children, but I'm not getting my lips ripped off for it.

There are liability issues surrounding an owner holding a pet for most if not all procedures. Admittedly I'm slacking off in class reading this thread and have NOT read all the articles/pictures/comments etc. BUT in the practice I worked out 99.99999% of the time we were not under ANY circumstances allowed to let owners restrain pets. If it had been the OWNER who had gotten injured, the veterinary hospital CAN be held liable for that, which is BIG problem.

So, take home message - don't let owners hold animals. It's all kinds of trouble waiting to happen.

 

[rawrcakes]

My thing doesn't make any sense does it?
I read it over and it does not make sense. haha

 

[starlene45]

The doggie could have had a bad day too.
Most of your comments are not to baby your doggie, mine is wayyyyy babied. But she is my baby. She doesn't attack the vets though because she is to scared. When we are places and i am holding her and they stick their hand out then she barks and snaps. She is in classes and i am supposed to "be stricter" so that may make her stop that. But it might make the vet worse. I doubt it though. The only time mine has bitten the vet techs is when they do her nails, since she hates people touching her nails. But if she does bit someone multiple times and faces dying, i am willing to move out of the country or hire a million super good vets and mafia members and pay off the government But i am super protective of any animal put in that situation. Once when i was like 10 i got so mad at this guy because his son got bit i guess by a dog and had to go to the er, and i figured they would kill the dog. Like i super mad. But for you people in the vetmed profession, they should make you take an animal psychology class so you know their body language and how to deal with it. That might prevent some things. The government needs to let my baby go into stores and food places, since she is not going to run wild, and she is clean unlike some kids who run wild draw on everything, and are dirty and have lice. haha but i guess some people ruin it. I am babbling on, so i should stop and find another boredom killer.

I f*king love owners who defend their dog's human agression problems. LOVE THEM. LMFAO. that is all.

 

[DVMDream]

My thing doesn't make any sense does it?
I read it over and it does not make sense. haha

Uhh...most of it...no. More like I just had no clue how to respond so read starlene's post she summed up my thoughts quite nicely.

 

[rawrcakes]

I f*king love owners who defend their dog's human agression problems. LOVE THEM. LMFAO. that is all.

me? i wasn't defending my dog's actions. Just saying that she doesn't do is for no reason...

 

[Whyevernot55]

me? i wasn't defending my dog's actions. Just saying that she doesn't do is for no reason...

Yes...you were. Please take a moment to actually read what you are posting.

 

[DVMDream]

Most of your comments are not to baby your doggie, mine is wayyyyy babied. But she is my baby. When we are places and i am holding her and they stick their hand out then she barks and snaps. But if she does bit someone multiple times and faces dying, i am willing to move out of the country or hire a million super good vets and mafia members and pay off the government But i am super protective of any animal put in that situation.

me? i wasn't defending my dog's actions. Just saying that she doesn't do is for no reason...

Ok. Most dogs do not snap at people when they hold their hand out to the dog and the dog really has no reason to be snapping at people when they do this. The reason she is doing it is because of what you said that she is your baby. She is being too protective of you and is biting people because of that. Then you do defend her actions by saying that if she does bite someone multiple times then you would be willing to move out of the country and pay tons of $$ to protect her. Dogs should not be treated like babies....it causes aggression problems and the dog to become over-protective of their owners.

 

[rawrcakes]

I guess i sorta did, i didn't mean too. I do know that sometimes it is uncalled for. Some people and dogs and cats, hate being touched in one area, her's is her nails.
she only snaps sometimes, mostly when she is sleepy. But i do know that the idiots at my mom's work always mess with her, so i do know that is partly why acts like that.

 

[Tobysgirl81]

I guess i sorta did, i didn't mean too. I do know that sometimes it is uncalled for. Some people and dogs and cats, hate being touched in one area, her's is her nails.
she only snaps sometimes, mostly when she is sleepy. But i do know that the idiots at my mom's work always mess with her, so i do know that is partly why acts like that.

My dachshund/yorkie cross hates his nails being handled too. You know what he does? He whines and tries to pull his foot away. If he ever bit or snapped he'd get a swat on his butt and a firm "NO!". However, he knows that he won't get away with it. He's also one of the easiest dogs to handle, and he's my baby as well. I just don't confuse "baby" with "brat".

 

[gilch]

My sister's dog is similar. Way too protective of himself, his people and space. The way I've trimmed his nails the last year or so is to muzzle him, have him crazy restrained, and pray not to get bitten--it's worked so far. I get bitten other times instead . I also sometimes resort to drugs...but that makes him more aggressive, so if I don't get him at exactly the right time, I gotta dodge like crazy. Why do any dogs do this? Breeding, abuse or poor treatment early in life, bad experiences at the vets or with individuals, ect. but I think the far biggest factor for the majority of aggressive dogs is stupid owners. They create problems and are unwilling or unable to fix it.

That being said, when my sister's idiotic terrier mix (he is ~25 lbs) has to go to the vet, he gets muzzled and/or sedated before he goes in. They were reluctant to muzzle him the first time he went in for something routine when we urged them too. So vets and vet techs need to be smarter too. When an owner says muzzle, generally that is a good thing to do!

I feel like there is blame to go around in this particular case (granted, not knowing details beyond forum comments and video) but want to support some of the recent statements by DVMDream, Whyevernot55, and starlene45.


As for breeds--if there are pit bull bans, why can't there be terrier or mini poodle, under 20 lb bans too? not serious in any way, just can't stand tiny dogs. Give me a pit any day .

 

[CanadianGolden]

I guess i sorta did, i didn't mean too. I do know that sometimes it is uncalled for. Some people and dogs and cats, hate being touched in one area, her's is her nails.

This is something that can be eliminated through conditioning exercises--to train the dog that having all body parts handled is a pleasant, or at least acceptable, experience. In fact, all dogs and cats should be conditioned to handling as puppies and kittens to avoid these types of behaviors as adults. Behavioral conditioning is quite simple--you can probably find directions on a dog behavior site, but essentially you begin with something simple like putting your hand near the dog's foot and then giving them a treat. Then you progress to touching the foot, lifting the foot, squeezing the foot, trimming one nail, etc. Always with food. The dog will quickly learn that having its feet handled is a pleasant experience. It's easier to begin this when they are young and don't have any negative associations with the handling.

 

[rawrcakes]

This is something that can be eliminated through conditioning exercises--to train the dog that having all body parts handled is a pleasant, or at least acceptable, experience. In fact, all dogs and cats should be conditioned to handling as puppies and kittens to avoid these types of behaviors as adults. Behavioral conditioning is quite simple--you can probably find directions on a dog behavior site, but essentially you begin with something simple like putting your hand near the dog's foot and then giving them a treat. Then you progress to touching the foot, lifting the foot, squeezing the foot, trimming one nail, etc. Always with food. The dog will quickly learn that having its feet handled is a pleasant experience. It's easier to begin this when they are young and don't have any negative associations with the handling.

i was going to do exactly that, but my mother will not buy a nail trimmer, because she is afraid i will clip it to far and hurt her(even though i know where the vet and petco clips it.

My dachshund/yorkie cross hates his nails being handled too. You know what he does? He whines and tries to pull his foot away. If he ever bit or snapped he'd get a swat on his butt and a firm "NO!". However, he knows that he won't get away with it. He's also one of the easiest dogs to handle, and he's my baby as well. I just don't confuse "baby" with "brat".

I would do exactly that, but there is usually like 3-4 techs holding her down, and she only half snapped once she mainly just cries like they are killing her, and squiggle around.

 

[VeganSoprano]

I guess i sorta did, i didn't mean too. I do know that sometimes it is uncalled for. Some people and dogs and cats, hate being touched in one area, her's is her nails.
she only snaps sometimes, mostly when she is sleepy. But i do know that the idiots at my mom's work always mess with her, so i do know that is partly why acts like that.

Seriously? The *only* acceptable reason for your dog to snap or snarl at anyone is if she has just been attacked, hit by a car, or otherwise had legitimate, severe trauma and pain inflicted on her. Under no other circumstances should aggressive behavior be tolerated. Only a spoiled brat behaves aggressively when they simply do not like something - and this applies to humans as much as it applies to dogs.

Honestly, allowing a dog to think it's okay to bite is a form of neglect, just like it would be neglectful of you didn't teach your human child not to bite. A dog who is allowed to bite will bite, and this can easily lead to the sort of situation described above. If that happens, when you knew and accepted that your dog bites, then it's your fault.

 

[dyachei]

i was going to do exactly that, but my mother will not buy a nail trimmer, because she is afraid i will clip it to far and hurt her(even though i know where the vet and petco clips it.



I would do exactly that, but there is usually like 3-4 techs holding her down, and she only half snapped once she mainly just cries like they are killing her, and squiggle around.

You don't have to do it with a nail trimmer at first. You can just get her used to having her feet handled using positive reinforcement.

 

[sumstorm]

The doggie could have had a bad day too.

Yes, and I have really, really horrible days as well, and yet, if I started attacking my medical doctor the moment s/he approached me, I would likely end up arrested or committed. Why on earth would a ‘bad day' justify inappropriate behavior by a human or animal?

Most of your comments are not to baby your doggie, mine is wayyyyy babied. But she is my baby. She doesn't attack the vets though because she is to scared.

Fearful dogs are as likely, and possibly more likely to bite than aggressive dogs and their owners are more likely to justify, coddle, reinforce (by giving them attention for bad behavior), and have insufficient control of their dogs. This sounds exactly like what you are describing.

When we are places and i am holding her and they stick their hand out then she barks and snaps. She is in classes and i am supposed to "be stricter" so that may make her stop that. But it might make the vet worse. I doubt it though. The only time mine has bitten the vet techs is when they do her nails, since she hates people touching her nails.

If she is bad about having her nails done, why aren't YOU taking the risk of trimming them YOURSELF?! I am not harsh to my animals, but they would quickly learn who controls everything about their life if they ever behaved in this way. For dogs that have issues, nothing in life is free. And you are doing a major disservice to your dog by neglecting to train her to handle, in a calm and reasonable fashion, situations like vet visits. There are lots of ways to train a dog using primarily positive reinforcement to train the dog that these situations, including nail trimming are acceptable and even rewarding. Consider reading "click to calm" and "control unleashed." How can you even think it is ok that she is biting any person? How can you even ask another person to do those tasks knowing the risk? Why would you, since you obviously do KNOW, not muzzle her before any such opportunity presented itself? Practice, even of bad behaviors, makes permanent. Unless this is how you want her to be, you need to address it. You are responsible for your pet.

When But if she does bit someone multiple times and faces dying, i am willing to move out of the country or hire a million super good vets and mafia members and pay off the government But i am super protective of any animal put in that situation. Once when i was like 10 i got so mad at this guy because his son got bit i guess by a dog and had to go to the er, and i figured they would kill the dog. Like i super mad.

At this point, since apparently your dog has previously bit, you might have to….but considering a vet would have to sign off on it leaving the country, you might have some problems. By the way, WE are NOT putting your dog in this situation. YOU are putting your dog in this situation by refusing to fulfill your responsibilities as a pet owner and socializing and training your dog to handle these situation and to be calm and tolerant. Instead, you are escalating her actions by defending and coddling her. You CAN kill your dog with this form of love.

But for you people in the vetmed profession, they should make you take an animal psychology class so you know their body language and how to deal with it. That might prevent some things.

Many vet schools do require ethology or animal behavior classes. However, I think you need to take a huge dose of your own advice, as you are failing your dog by being absolutely ignorant about animal behavior.

The government needs to let my baby go into stores and food places, since she is not going to run wild, and she is clean unlike some kids who run wild draw on everything, and are dirty and have lice. haha but i guess some people ruin it. I am babbling on, so i should stop and find another boredom killer.

Yes, because individuals who are allergic to dogs, or who may approach your very scared dog and get bit deserve to suffer for you to act like a living creature is a stuffed animal. Either you are a troll, or you are truely clueless.

 

[rawrcakes]

Honestly, allowing a dog to think it's okay to bite is a form of neglect, just like it would be neglectful of you didn't teach your human child not to bite. A dog who is allowed to bite will bite, and this can easily lead to the sort of situation described above. If that happens, when you knew and accepted that your dog bites, then it's your fault.

She knows its wrong, but i am not there most of the time she bites, so i don't know how my mom punishes her. We have been punishing her for biting for over a year, yet she still does it. But hopefully when i move out, i will be able to punish her better and it will stop

 

[incendium04]

As someone who grew up with a dog that 'disliked' being touched around his tail and had food aggression, I was bit. A lot. There is no validation for this occurring to anybody, be it a kid or an adult, from a cute fluffy dog (like mine was) or a huge pit bull/dobie/rottie/"aggressive" dog. I've had dogs since then and none are allowed to even play bite or mouth anybody. It is completely preventable as a puppy and treatable/trainable as an adult.

 

[sumstorm]

Honestly, allowing a dog to think it's okay to bite is a form of neglect, just like it would be neglectful of you didn't teach your human child not to bite. A dog who is allowed to bite will bite, and this can easily lead to the sort of situation described above. If that happens, when you knew and accepted that your dog bites, then it's your fault.

At a cafe last year, we saw a girl BITE her father. Hard enough to leave red whelts visible from our table. The parents (dining with another set of parents) laughed like it was a joke, and said they didn't know how to stop her biting other kids in kindergarten. Umm.... stop treating it like a joke.