GAP Year + LOR length advice

[orangeman25]

I decided to ask for advice on two separate things on one thread (2 birds with one stone). First, I'm getting a LOR from a physician I've been shadowing. When I asked him for the LOR, he told me to draft it and that he would add to it. How long should a LOR be? I don't want to draft something excessively long.

My second question is about my gap year. In undergrad I had research experience and also clinical experience in the form of shadowing/hospital volunteering. With that said, would working in a lab look better for med school or working as an ER scribe? I also interviewed for some healthcare consulting positions but slowly realized that it is highly irrelevant if I want to go to medical school - but let me know what you think of this gap year option as well.

Thank you in advance!

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[Boolean]

I think 1 to 2 pages is the norm, but in the end it depends on the situation and the person.

 

[orangeman25]

I think 1 to 2 pages is the norm, but in the end it depends on the situation and the person.

Thank you. That seems reasonable

 

[SpartanWolverine]

1)Yep. Anywhere around 1 to 1.5 pages is pretty standard.
2)I would personally lean towards research over ER scribe.

 

[orangeman25]

1)Yep. Anywhere around 1 to 1.5 pages is pretty standard.
2)I would personally lean towards research over ER scribe.

Thank you. Any particular reason?

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Thank you. Any particular reason?

Through it depends on the PI, I think it is more utilitarian in general. Being a scribe is more grunt work... whereas in research you can get much more personal training.

 

[Hospitalized]

Through it depends on the PI, I think it is more utilitarian in general. Being a scribe is more grunt work... whereas in research you can get much more personal training.

Highly depends on the program. Mine is very interactive and I work with a pretty consistent group of doctors, so I get to build relationships with them and explore clinical decision making. Research is great, but I cannot express enough how valuable it is to get involved in the culture of medicine and know what you will be dealing with-- Scribing is a great opportunity for that. Many of the doctors I work with wished they had been able to do it, mostly because it's like a mini-residency, exposure wise.

Also I'm curious to see which way you decided, that's why the bump.

 

[chillinillinkillin007]

I think 1 to 2 pages is the norm, but in the end it depends on the situation and the person.

a LOR is 1-2 pages? seriously, is this some kind of essay. What type of professors can write that much about you

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Highly depends on the program. Mine is very interactive and I work with a pretty consistent group of doctors, so I get to build relationships with them and explore clinical decision making. Research is great, but I cannot express enough how valuable it is to get involved in the culture of medicine and know what you will be dealing with-- Scribing is a great opportunity for that. Many of the doctors I work with wished they had been able to do it, mostly because it's like a mini-residency, exposure wise.

Also I'm curious to see which way you decided, that's why the bump.

Haha wow, definitely a bit of a bump! I'll just amend my last post to say that many of my classmates were scribes and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. It definitely bumps them ahead a notch when it comes to some of our clinical skills/documentation training, but I really don't think it's all that valuable beyond that -- I still think that the ceiling for research work is much higher than scribing. Yes, my scribe co-workers got a jump on some clinical work (and perhaps invaluable exposure that helped them ensure medicine was the right way to go), but a few years of research got me a handful of papers and lots of poster presentations which, I think, means more in the long-term.

a LOR is 1-2 pages? seriously, is this some kind of essay. What type of professors can write that much about you

And yes, I think so. Any good LOR is around a page or more. A professor you know personally can easily talk about a number of relevant qualities in depth ... leadership, academics, research, mentoring, etc etc.

 

[sunflower18]

a LOR is 1-2 pages? seriously, is this some kind of essay. What type of professors can write that much about you

One of mine was three pages..... I didn't read it, but Interfolio tells you how long they are. I was pretty surprised, since I thought LORs were almost always just a single page, but I guess she had a lot to say. Totally anecdotal, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents

 

[mimelim]

I decided to ask for advice on two separate things on one thread (2 birds with one stone). First, I'm getting a LOR from a physician I've been shadowing. When I asked him for the LOR, he told me to draft it and that he would add to it. How long should a LOR be? I don't want to draft something excessively long.

My second question is about my gap year. In undergrad I had research experience and also clinical experience in the form of shadowing/hospital volunteering. With that said, would working in a lab look better for med school or working as an ER scribe? I also interviewed for some healthcare consulting positions but slowly realized that it is highly irrelevant if I want to go to medical school - but let me know what you think of this gap year option as well.

Thank you in advance!

In these circumstances, this is a pretty big red flag. I would consider this to be a very weak letter from the get-go.

 

[orangeman25]

In these circumstances, this is a pretty big red flag. I would consider this to be a very weak letter from the get-go.

Really? But doesn't that mean that the letter writer is comfortably with you speaking yourself up?

 

[PlaqueBuster]

LOR recommendation should not exceed 2 paragraphs. I have seen my research mentor write a wonderful letter for me. A good writer will state the important things concisely. Don't ramble on and definetely don't make it more than a page. I am kind of baffled by the advice given here on that.

Paragraph 1: talk about your role
paragraph 2: your character and how that makes you fit into med school

 

[mimelim]

Really? But doesn't that mean that the letter writer is comfortably with you speaking yourself up?

No. When a letter writer asks for a student to write the letter for them, it means #1 They are too busy/lazy or #2 They don't know where to start. #1 is very bad. Either they don't know you or they can't be bothered to write a letter for you, which shows a lack of investment on their part. Thankfully, #1 is relatively rare. #2 is the more common and the bigger issue. When someone has a multi-year relationship and has published multiple papers with someone or has built a business from the ground up with someone, they often don't know where to begin. They don't know what the student is trying to highlight, how their LOR can fit into their story and they need an initial guide to get things going. That is NOT the case here.

Shadowing letters almost by definition are the weakest letters one can get. What exactly can they attest to? What can they possibly say that will make an adcom think to themselves, "Oh ya, we gotta get that kid instead of the 2000 others with the same stats as him!" The reality is that the relationships are short, and you aren't demonstrating anything production wise for them.

My general commentary about LOR: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/letters-of-recommendation.985472/

 

[mimelim]

As to length, one of the HMS adcoms I'm close with said point blank, "For scientific papers, if it can't be said in less than 700 words, it isn't worth reading, for letters of recommendation, half of that."

 

[SpartanWolverine]

I'm not sure why 1-2 pages seems like a lot -- these guidelines (stating > .5 pgs and < 3 pgs is ideal) are similar to what I follow when writing and assessing letters.
http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/html/icb.topic58474/Verba-recs.html

 

[PlaqueBuster]

I'm not sure why 1-2 pages seems like a lot -- these guidelines (stating > .5 pgs and < 3 pgs is ideal) are similar to what I follow when writing and assessing letters.
http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/html/icb.topic58474/Verba-recs.html

not for a physician recommendation and especially if someone doesn't know you that well. Still I dont think I have had anyone write me more than a page.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

not for a physician recommendation and especially if someone doesn't know you that well. Still I dont think I have had anyone write me more than a page.

Ah, my bad -- I missed the part when the OP mentioned it was a letter from a physician they shadowed. In this case, I just don't think a letter from someone you shadowed (unless there's a relationship outside of the hospital as well) would have enough substance to make it worthwhile.

Regardless, I'm still holding fast to the opinion that a worthwhile letter is at least 1 +/- 0.5 pages.

Is that feasible for people who just ask a professor after class or a physician they shadowed? Probably not... But all of my LOR writers are people I have had substantial relationships with for at least 3-8 years, because I wanted to make sure the would have real insight to share with admissions.

 

[JimmyB123]

Ah, my bad -- I missed the part when the OP mentioned it was a letter from a physician they shadowed. In this case, I just don't think a letter from someone you shadowed (unless there's a relationship outside of the hospital as well) would have enough substance to make it worthwhile.

Regardless, I'm still holding fast to the opinion that a worthwhile letter is at least 1 +/- 0.5 pages.

Is that feasible for people who just ask a professor after class or a physician they shadowed? Probably not... But all of my LOR writers are people I have had substantial relationships with for at least 3-8 years, because I wanted to make sure the would have real insight to share with admissions.

By the way, yeah, I made the worse decision of my life getting a letter from a doctor i shadowed. Not gonna go into specifics but yeah, it's a horrible decision to make.

 

[Lysinee]

No one likes a long LOR. It should be under 1 page with the letterhead and signature included.

The readers will start skimming the letter if it's too long.

 

[Blue Blood]

Committee letters can be pretty long, but I guess thats expected when they're summarizing 5-7 letters (at least that how my school's committee does it).
My MD letter was ~2 pages single spaced and blocked. He knew me very well. I think this is perfectly reasonable.
Wether or not adcoms are paid, I expect someone to fully read my letters at ~$100 a pop per school and not just skim it.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

No one likes a long LOR. It should be under 1 page with the letterhead and signature included.

The readers will start skimming the letter if it's too long.

I guess we're potentially talking about different things here since my experience isn't in medical admissions per se.

A good letter to me =/= a letter someone is happy to read because it's easy. Most of my experience in reading/writing letters is from a professional academic standpoint (faculty promotions, Ph.D. admissions, fellowship & grant applications, etc.) and not a bulk admissions process. When you only have a handful of applicants with a handful of letters that are going to be carefully considered with a CV and statement, it's important to have a detailed and thorough explanation of several aspects of the person. I wouldn't have recommended candidates for admission/interview if I thought their letters were superficial and I couldn't get a good read on them. I find that people who have short and superficial letters, even when invited for interview, were not ultimately admitted for the programs I worked in.

However, I know all of my recommendation letters for medical school were substantial, and my adcom mentioned that varied experience and a well-rounded background were a big part of the admissions decision. -- much of that came from my recommendation letters. Thought note that my school only accepted two letters, so I wanted to make sure they were good ones.