given this response should i use my FMD as LOR after getting fired from scribe job? (ADCOM please)

[PortlandSurgeon]

hi i posted my situation a few days ago in this thread http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...er-scribe-enough-clinical-experience.1061433/

i got fired from my first and only clinical job as a chief er scribe after 6 months of managing a team of 14 people. i was fired for making inappropriate comments, not being a good leader/professional, and for HR stuff (not for my charting ability). about a month before i was let go, the FMD at my site asked to meet me for coffee and told that there was concern about my leadership because i asked too many questions about medicine and talked too much instead of focusing on charting, though he himself did not have any specific complaints.

anyway i chalked it up to life experience and figured i just needed to get a reference and rec letter from this experience and move on.

this is my original email to him:

Hey Dr. FMD,




First off, I would like to thank you and the physician group for a great experience as an ED scribe and also apologize for not being a better chief scribe. Ever since our talk at the coffee shop, I tried very hard and certainly think and hope I improved a lot, but perhaps it was too little too late. I'm not sure exactly what the scribe company told you, but I admit to doing things wrong, mostly not being professional with the people I was "supervising." Frankly, I just wanted to be liked and joked around, when I shouldn't have joked around, and things got misinterpreted a lot. But l definitely did do things wrong. I am fine with how things turned out, and I wish all the scribes and physicians the best. I know I will always remember the message you gave me that morning about how leaders in medicine need to be the best at what they do, the most professional at what they do, and completely unassailable in their credentials (and I again apologize for not meeting that burden).


That being said, I was wondering if I could use you for a reference or letter of recommendation? I know the last time we worked together you said I did a good job, so I hope you wouldn't have a problem being my reference for AMCAS for my scribe experience. If possible, I would like to list you as the reference for my experience when I apply to medical school this summer. If so, I can only ask that if contacted (the likelihood would be small), that you not mention that I was terminated. I am not required to disclose on AMCAS the reason for stopping work, so, without lying, I would frame it as having had a great experience for 6 months and stopping to shift focus to MCAT, my lab, and volunteering.


Also, if you're agreeable to it, I would absolutely be so thankful if you could write me a strong letter of recommendation for medical school. As lead scribe, I tried to always be responsive, let you know of any possible late/missed shifts and to find coverage, and to communicate your wishes to the team. As a regular scribe, I was always on time for my shifts, always curious and asked questions (perhaps too much), and always excited to be part of the clinical experience. My favorite experience was working with you as you often did things like explain the logarithmic SpO2 saturation curve, and even let me glove-up and let me help on that hip reduction once. That was an amazing experience for a pre-med, to feel that hip pop back into place and be a small part of alleviating that person's pain, and it really solidified my desire to go into medicine.


If you don't feel comfortable being a positive reference for me, I totally understand and no hard feelings either. If you are agreeable to being my reference, thank you so much. If you are further agreeable to writing me a letter of recommendation over the next month or two, that would be phenomenal and I would be so grateful and provide you more information at your request.


Please let me know at your convenience of whether you would be comfortable serving as a positive reference for my scribing experience and/or write me a letter of support to medical school. Regardless, I am once again sorry I was not able to be a better chief scribe, and thank you personally so much for the lessons and experiences you imparted on me.




Sincerely,




i emailed him and this is what he (Facility Medical Director M.D.) said:


PortlandSurgeon


I enjoyed working with you. I hope this experience will impart some lessons on leadership and professionalism. I dont mind serving as a reference, though if asked I would mention the termination as that is what occurred. Also I am happy to write a letter of recommendation - if so it would not mention a termination but would speak to your strengths and enthusiasm but also mention that challenges and weakness were addressed, and positive change was noted after that.

so my question to you sdn is whether i should use him as a reference and more importantly as LOR? from what i understand, references are not called by amcas/med school very often, so the termination probably wouldn't be brought up (please correct me if i'm wrong), but given what he said do you think i should use him as a reference?

i appreciate all responses but would specifically be very grateful to hear from ADCOMS like @LizzyM @gyngyn @Goro @Catalystik @hushcom

should i ask him for LOR and reference for med school? all responses helpful. thanks

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[Shirafune]

Not sure how many references one can list on the AMCAS, but I would try to get a LOR but not list him as a reference. Unless you only have a few notable references to list, you probably don't want to shoot yourself in the foot. If you could somehow word the situation as a positive learning experience, then I would consider talking about it in another part of your app. Otherwise, steer clear of mentioning this.

Also, not to harp on anything (because I already think you know), but I would recommend that you work on your professionalism in both your work etiquette and your communication skills. Opening a business email with "Hey" or writing "I totally understand and no hard feelings either" are not good ways to convey professionalism.

 

[kreme]

Did you ask him if he was going to write a strong letter?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Walk away. No letter, no reference.

Edit: Also, learn to write MUCH shorter, and more professional emails. Less colloquialisms and oversharing/verbal diarrhea; more formal; put your requests EARLY in the email and be specific about what you need from the person.

 

[Mr Roboto]

Don't use him as a reference, don't ask him to write an LOR.

I had hoped your professional communication wasn't going to sound like your forum posts. This e-mail was unfortunate.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

Did you ask him if he was going to write a strong letter?

yes i did, i asked specifically if he would write a strong letter. his reply did not address whether the letter would be strong.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

Don't use him as a reference, don't ask him to write an LOR.

I had hoped your professional communication wasn't going to sound like your forum posts. This e-mail was unfortunate.

so your insulting my email writing, my forum posting, or both?

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

Walk away. No letter, no reference.

Edit: Also, learn to write MUCH shorter, and more professional emails. Less colloquialisms and oversharing/verbal diarrhea; more formal; put your requests EARLY in the email and be specific about what you need from the person.

thanks for your input. i will have strong LORs from others. so, you think any LOR from this guy would be less than good? is that why you are advising to just walk away?

Re your edit: i generally try to write much shorter, however, this was potentially my first and only communication with him after i left the scribe job, so i wanted to convey everything and also hopefully leave a good taste in his mouth about my experience there. nonetheless, message received: shorter emails, more professional, be more upfront about what i need.

 

[Mr Roboto]

so your insulting my email writing, my forum posting, or both?

Both.

 

[Resilience]

Trying to get a letter of recommendation out of a situation in which you were ultimately fired because you lack professionalism, maturity and dedication is like trying to get blood out of a stone. Forget this experience ever happened, and move on with your life. If you wanted a letter from this experience then you should have actually done your job.

Also, that was the most painful email I have ever read. It was unprofessional, full of grammar mistakes, and super redundant/repetitive. If you can read that email and not flush with embarrassment at having sent such a thing, then you have A LOT of work to do before applying. I'm cringing thinking about how your PS reads. . .

And not to make a list of things that you are unprofessional about, but I'm confused. You're asking us if you should get an LOR from this guy, but you have already asked him. What are you going to do, email him, after he (somehow) agreed to write you an LOR, and be like no thanks anymore, i realized that you probably don't have anything nice to say about me?

 

[WillburCobb]

Most schools (MD anyway) don't require a LOR from a doctor. If you apply to some schools that want a LOR from a supervisor I'd find someone else - and ask them in a much more professional manner, and in person.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

Both.

well, sir, you are clearly a winner at life. cheers.

 

[midnight0il]

Ditch it and move on. No good can come out of this. You want your AMCAS to be as spotless as possible. This whole situation looks like a huge blotch.

 

[terp720]

thanks for your input. i will have strong LORs from others. so, you think any LOR from this guy would be less than good? is that why you are advising to just walk away?

Re your edit: i generally try to write much shorter, however, this was potentially my first and only communication with him after i left the scribe job, so i wanted to convey everything and also hopefully leave a good taste in his mouth about my experience there. nonetheless, message received: shorter emails, more professional, be more upfront about what i need.

If you include this experience on your AMCAS, you have to put down a reference for it. If they call, I think there is an extremely high probability that they would say your position was terminated.. and you definitely can't ask the person you include as a reference to omit that fact.
Chances of them calling may be low, but it could be risky.

The LOR, however, looks like it will include faults and problems, even if you did make changes and improve. I would personally avoid that kind of letter.. it may make adcoms question what was wrong

so I would just avoid the whole thing and not include this

 

[terp720]

well, sir, you are clearly a winner at life. cheers.

it may be insulting, but you do need people to tell you that you're being unprofessional. If you keep doing unprofessional things, you may find yourself in a similar situation..

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

Trying to get a letter of recommendation out of a situation in which you were ultimately fired because you lack professionalism, maturity and dedication is like trying to get blood out of a stone. Forget this experience ever happened, and move on with your life. If you wanted a letter from this experience then you should have actually done your job.

Also, that was the most painful email I have ever read. It was unprofessional, full of grammar mistakes, and super redundant/repetitive. If you can read that email and not flush with embarrassment at having sent such a thing, then you have A LOT of work to do before applying. I'm cringing thinking about how your PS reads. . .

And not to make a list of things that you are unprofessional about, but I'm confused. You're asking us if you should get an LOR from this guy, but you have already asked him. What are you going to do, email him, after he (somehow) agreed to write you an LOR, and be like no thanks anymore, i realized that you probably don't have anything nice to say about me?

well if he agreed to write me a letter then clearly i wasn't all bad, was i? frankly i don't really appreciate your negativity. i write the way i write and its brought me alot of good things to bear thus far in my life. i was fired by hr for making inappropriate comments, but was given positive performance reviews by my supervisor and the president of the physician group who runs this ed. anyway, whatever, thanks for your viewpoint.

regarding your question in the bold - yes, that is exactly what i was planning to do. i have a strong application otherwise including very strong LORs (as far as i know) from other activities, therefore his LOR is not make or break, but would be nice to have it if were strong.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

Ditch it and move on. No good can come out of this. You want your AMCAS to be as spotless as possible. This whole situation looks like a huge blotch.

so you think don't even put this on my amcas at all? even though its my only clinical experience and i gained alot of good experience from it, watching procedures, seeing arrests, helping on a hip reduction, etc?

 

[IlDestriero]

Nothing good can come of this. Terminated for problems with professionalism and boundaries in your leadership role is a death sentence unless significant time has passed and other leadership opportunities have gone well.

 

[LizzyM]

You may want to include this "employment, non-military" on your application. The likelihood that anyone will check the reference and find out that you were fired is slim.

Do not ask anyone there for a reference. The fact that you were fired will almost guarantee that you won't get a strong letter from anyone there.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

Nothing good can come of this. Terminated for problems with professionalism and boundaries in your leadership role is a death sentence unless significant time has passed and other leadership opportunities have gone well.

would you not include this on an AMCAS application then? it is my only clinical experience so far and i did learn alot.

 

[tantacles]

You may want to include this "employment, non-military" on your application. The likelihood that anyone will check the reference and find out that you were fired is slim.

Do not ask anyone there for a reference. The fact that you were fired will almost guarantee that you won't get a strong letter from anyone there.

Follow this advice. AMCAS rarely (if ever) checks employment references. You can ignore the fact that you were fired and still put this experience on your application, and no one will be any the wiser as long as you don't bring it up.

 

[IlDestriero]

That's for you to decide. I doubt they'll follow up if you do, but it is a bit of a gamble.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

You may want to include this "employment, non-military" on your application. The likelihood that anyone will check the reference and find out that you were fired is slim.

Do not ask anyone there for a reference. The fact that you were fired will almost guarantee that you won't get a strong letter from anyone there.

thank you for your advice ma'am. this is exactly what i was looking to ascertain. writing problems not withstanding, i just wanted to know how to handle this strategically.
thank you again.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

That's for you to decide. I doubt they'll follow up if you do, but it is a bit of a gamble.

thank you for your advice, doctor.

 

[milski]

yes i did, i asked specifically if he would write a strong letter. his reply did not address whether the letter would be strong.

He said that he will mention weaknesses and how you have addressed them. That does not sound like a strong letter. Cut your losses and move on.

 

[bakedbeans18]

I'm surprised the guy didn't write back "TL;DR".
That email is wayyyyyy too long.
Sorry I don't have much of anything constructive to add here, but you need to learn to curtail your correspondence so that it is not painfully long to read, otherwise, don't plan for people to be willing to write back to you very often.

Stay thirsty my friend.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

I'm surprised the guy didn't write back "TL;DR".
That email is wayyyyyy too long.
Sorry I don't have much of anything constructive to add here, but you need to learn to curtail your correspondence so that it is not painfully long to read, otherwise, don't plan for people to be willing to write back to you very often.

Stay thirsty my friend.

lol. thanks bakedbeans. my reasoning for writing the lengthy email was to get him to remember me as the fun scribe he liked to joke around with and explain stuff to and ask to join him on hip reductions, not the scribe that was fired last week, you know? either way, i consistently hear i need to write shorter emails, so thanks for the feedback.
-always thirsty

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

He said that he will mention weaknesses and how you have addressed them. That does not sound like a strong letter. Cut your losses and move on.

i suppose you're right. on the one hand, i would think adcoms know not every person is perfect and would appreciate seeing some weaknesses that were addressed with positive improvement. but otoh, i suppose you're right.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

lol. thanks bakedbeans. my reasoning for writing the lengthy email was to get him to remember me as the fun scribe he liked to joke around with and explain stuff to and ask to join him on hip reductions, not the scribe that was fired last week, you know? either way, i consistently hear i need to write shorter emails, so thanks for the feedback.
-always thirsty

But this was part of your whole problem in the first place! This isn't The Office: Scribe edition, and you're not Michael Scott.

An attending should remember you as a professional, diligent, highly accurate scribe. If that's not what they are going to put into your LOR, then you shouldn't be seeking one from that person.

Having a LOR that mentions an attending having to have a Come to Jesus talk with you about your behavioral problems at work (which obviously didn't work, since you subsequently got fired) is not going to win you any points.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Dude, you were almost unanimously counseled in the other thread to a) list the activity on AMCAS and b) NOT seek a letter from this experience, but you decided to go for the letter anyway?

Maybe you'll listen this time, cut your losses, and steer clear of the kiss of medical school application death that is "documented and acted upon unprofessionalism."

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

But this was part of your whole problem in the first place! This isn't The Office: Scribe edition, and you're not Michael Scott.

An attending should remember you as a professional, diligent, highly accurate scribe. If that's not what they are going to put into your LOR, then you shouldn't be seeking one from that person.

Having a LOR that mentions an attending having to have a Come to Jesus talk with you about your behavioral problems at work (which obviously didn't work, since you subsequently got fired) is not going to win you any points.

tough love. but thanks. i think the bolded really helps me get it. i have come to the conclusion that i will list this as an amcas, not put it as most meaningful, and not seek a letter. i will just have to apply with no MD LORs. thanks again

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

Dude, you were almost unanimously counseled in the other thread to a) list the activity on AMCAS and b) NOT seek a letter from this experience, but you decided to go for the letter anyway?

Maybe you'll listen this time, cut your losses, and steer clear of the kiss of medical school application death that is "documented and acted upon unprofessionalism."

hey yea i decided to go for the letter in case the fmd was sympathetic to my situation, which it sounds like he was, but not sympathetic enough to write me a strong letter. having gauged the reaction of the fmd (which i assume will be the reaction of the entire md staff), it seems that i should not seek a letter from this ed.

it does suck though, like two months ago i was so sure i would get at least 1-2 strong LORs from this experience.

 

[milski]

i suppose you're right. on the one hand, i would think adcoms know not every person is perfect and would appreciate seeing some weaknesses that were addressed with positive improvement. but otoh, i suppose you're right.

There is a thread about LORs with some insight what adcoms actually expect to see/read there. It is absolutely not a place to discuss addressing weaknesses.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

There is a thread about LORs with some insight what adcoms actually expect to see/read there. It is absolutely not a place to discuss addressing weaknesses.

do you happen to have the link to this thread, or know of specific keywords by which i can search for it? thanks

 

[milski]

do you happen to have the link to this thread, or know of specific keywords by which i can search for it? thanks

Not really, sorry. I have been reading SDN for a while, so that's more of an overall impression from different threads/posts than a single place that I could reference.

 

[DokterMom]

well if he agreed to write me a letter then clearly i wasn't all bad, was i?

Not true actually. I have been asked to write LORs for unsuccessful employees, and I always do. Those LORs are also always honest, even if I have to tap dance. I'll never forget writing a letter that spoke to the employee's reliable attendance record and consistent hard work. She showed up e v e r y d a r n e d d a y and worked really hard because doing the work was really, really hard for her. (Her boyfriend, who did not work for our company, did a great job re-doing her work in the evenings though. Him, I'd have hired. ) Nowhere did I say she did a good job or produced good work, or that I would be happy to rehire her. My star employees received very different letters.

 

[wiloghby]

Not true actually. I have been asked to write LORs for unsuccessful employees, and I always do. Those LORs are also always honest, even if I have to tap dance. I'll never forget writing a letter that spoke to the employee's reliable attendance record and consistent hard work. She showed up e v e r y d a r n e d d a y and worked really hard because doing the work was really, really hard for her. (Her boyfriend, who did not work for our company, did a great job re-doing her work in the evenings though. Him, I'd have hired. ) Nowhere did I say she did a good job or produced good work, or that I would be happy to rehire her. My star employees received very different letters.

what industry is this in, out of curiosity?? i'm trying to imagine a job where someone can go home and have their spouse re-do their work for them every day.

of course you don't have to share if you don't want to.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

Not true actually. I have been asked to write LORs for unsuccessful employees, and I always do. Those LORs are also always honest, even if I have to tap dance. I'll never forget writing a letter that spoke to the employee's reliable attendance record and consistent hard work. She showed up e v e r y d a r n e d d a y and worked really hard because doing the work was really, really hard for her. (Her boyfriend, who did not work for our company, did a great job re-doing her work in the evenings though. Him, I'd have hired. ) Nowhere did I say she did a good job or produced good work, or that I would be happy to rehire her. My star employees received very different letters.

doktermom, out of curiosity then, you would or would not accept the lor from this md in my position? that is, you think this doc would write me an overall negative-in-tone lor? i am not going to based on the advice of others on this thread, but part of me thinks it would be useful to have an lor from the fmd of the facility i was chief scribe at.

 

[midnight0il]

so you think don't even put this on my amcas at all? even though its my only clinical experience and i gained alot of good experience from it, watching procedures, seeing arrests, helping on a hip reduction, etc?

That's your call. Although clinical experience is uber important in apps, yours is pretty tainted by being fired. If you do list it on your AMCAS, I would certainly not include it as one of your meaningful ones because I can almost guarantee you it will come up during the interview (at least mine were...), but I think you know that. If you're intent on applying this upcoming cycle, I would rush to find another clinical experience that you can write about. Alternatively, if you're really lacking in that area, take another year to bolster your application. Another year won't hurt you. By the time I applied, I had multiple clinical experiences because I knew to hedge my bets in case one of them didn't work out. I would follow suit and volunteer at a couple of different places and do different things if you decide to take another year.

 

[terp720]

That's your call. Although clinical experience is uber important in apps, yours is pretty tainted by being fired. If you do list it on your AMCAS, I would certainly not include it as one of your meaningful ones because I can almost guarantee you it will come up during the interview (at least mine were...), but I think you know that. If you're intent on applying this upcoming cycle, I would rush to find another clinical experience that you can write about. Alternatively, if you're really lacking in that area, take another year to bolster your application. Another year won't hurt you. By the time I applied, I had multiple clinical experiences because I knew to hedge my bets in case one of them didn't work out. I would follow suit and volunteer at a couple of different places and do different things if you decide to take another year.

would you not include this on an AMCAS application then? it is my only clinical experience so far and i did learn alot.

yeah I agree, but just to add onto this. If this is your only clinical experience, there's a good chance it will be brought up regardless of whether it is one of your "most meaningful" experiences..

 

[petyr_baelish]

If you were capable of getting promoted, you are capable of getting another good job/clinical experience. Move on from this.

 

[Mr Roboto]

it does suck though, like two months ago i was so sure i would get at least 1-2 strong LORs from this experience.

Yeah, and then you got your ass chewed for sexist comments.

Give it up already, brah. Honestly your unwillingness to listen to advice you requested, in this and the other thread, leaves me not surprised that you were so immature as to make the comments that got your ass fired.

Live and let live, man. Time to learn, not to fight back...

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

That's your call. Although clinical experience is uber important in apps, yours is pretty tainted by being fired. If you do list it on your AMCAS, I would certainly not include it as one of your meaningful ones because I can almost guarantee you it will come up during the interview (at least mine were...), but I think you know that. If you're intent on applying this upcoming cycle, I would rush to find another clinical experience that you can write about. Alternatively, if you're really lacking in that area, take another year to bolster your application. Another year won't hurt you. By the time I applied, I had multiple clinical experiences because I knew to hedge my bets in case one of them didn't work out. I would follow suit and volunteer at a couple of different places and do different things if you decide to take another year.

thanks for your thoughtful advice. terp720 makes a good point that it will likely come up either way. tbh though it was awesome, i have 2 long term volunteer experiences and a research experience that are probably the most meaningful to me anyways. the volunteering in these two organizations was great because i felt like i actually helped people. scribing is super cool and is meaningful but at the end of the day, after the first few months, it was just something to 'check the box,' the learning seemed to drop off, and it became much more writing down what the doctor said and did. ie, i wasnt helping people, i was helping the docs be more productive (which i suppose you can spin into helping people but you know).

anyway i am pretty intent on applying this year, assuming i do well on my mcat next month. i'm aware that the first app cycle is the best app cycle, and i hear what you're saying on waiting another year, but i dont know how long i can keep going at my current lab (they might be running out of funding soon).

i was thinking about being a volunteer scribe for a doctor that i find interesting like neurology or some sort of surgeon, which would be awesome but i doubt a surgeon would use a scribe to the same degree. ive heard some IM practices do use scribes though. either way if i do that, it would be after my mcat and after my app is complete.

if i do something that is more long term, which i think is a good idea, i am leaning towards either getting certified as a surgical technician or an EMT-B, surgical technician would be awesome but that in itself is a year long program.

anyways, just thinking out loud now, but i appreciate your advice. keep it coming if you have more!

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

Yeah, and then you got your ass chewed for sexist comments.

Give it up already, brah. Honestly your unwillingness to listen to advice you requested, in this and the other thread, leaves me not surprised that you were so immature as to make the comments that got your ass fired.

Live and let live, man. Time to learn, not to fight back...

believe it or not a big part of why i decided to post any of this is because i knew it would help other people. i am sure there are other people that have faced similar circumstances and not felt like putting their situations up here and getting flamed for it and getting called immature or stubborn or stupid or whatever it is you are insinuating. yes, i asked for advice on how to be more competitive for medical school given the situation, not necessarily for your armchair analysis on writing tips. though, it is helpful as it reminds me that there are all kinds of people in the world who think they're right and you have to deal with them too. in all seriousness, be as judgmental as you want, and good luck to you.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

If you were capable of getting promoted, you are capable of getting another good job/clinical experience. Move on from this.

thanks. it doesnt bother me so much emotionally, as it days 4 days ago (the day it happened), in fact im pretty much over it. call me a gunner/premed a-hole, whatever, its all about maximizing my ability to get into medical school in the cycle that opens very, very shortly. but i appreciate it! planning to be a volunteer scribe for a non-emergency related field or start a surgical technician program in the fall, after my mcat and sending off my app in 2 month.

 

[midnight0il]

thanks for your thoughtful advice. terp720 makes a good point that it will likely come up either way. tbh though it was awesome, i have 2 long term volunteer experiences and a research experience that are probably the most meaningful to me anyways. the volunteering in these two organizations was great because i felt like i actually helped people. scribing is super cool and is meaningful but at the end of the day, after the first few months, it was just something to 'check the box,' the learning seemed to drop off, and it became much more writing down what the doctor said and did. ie, i wasnt helping people, i was helping the docs be more productive (which i suppose you can spin into helping people but you know).

anyway i am pretty intent on applying this year, assuming i do well on my mcat next month. i'm aware that the first app cycle is the best app cycle, and i hear what you're saying on waiting another year, but i dont know how long i can keep going at my current lab (they might be running out of funding soon).

i was thinking about being a volunteer scribe for a doctor that i find interesting like neurology or some sort of surgeon, which would be awesome but i doubt a surgeon would use a scribe to the same degree. ive heard some IM practices do use scribes though. either way if i do that, it would be after my mcat and after my app is complete.

if i do something that is more long term, which i think is a good idea, i am leaning towards either getting certified as a surgical technician or an EMT-B, surgical technician would be awesome but that in itself is a year long program.

anyways, just thinking out loud now, but i appreciate your advice. keep it coming if you have more!

My last bit of advice, but I'm sure it's obvious: Rock the MCAT and you'll be fine. You'd be amazed how many doors a 35+ opens.

Also, if you have other volunteer experiences AND research to talk about, then I would totally leave off the scribe job. Just move on and don't look back. Good luck on your application cycle.

 

[Gastrapathy]

This experience should be the focus of your personal statement. After u submit it, please post it here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bakedbeans18]

This experience should be the focus of your personal statement. After u submit it, please post it here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Plecopotamus]

doktermom, out of curiosity then, you would or would not accept the lor from this md in my position? that is, you think this doc would write me an overall negative-in-tone lor? i am not going to based on the advice of others on this thread, but part of me thinks it would be useful to have an lor from the fmd of the facility i was chief scribe at.

I'm obviously not Doktormom, but I am also a non-trad who had previously been in the position to hire, fire, & recommend people in my prior work. Letters of reference in these circumstances have different wording. I'm sure the med LOR is no exception. It might not outright say anything bad. However, it will not be as gushing as those of other applicants -- theirs will say "excellent", "outstanding", "exceeded expectations in scribing" and "self-aware and insightful regarding weaknesses which he proactively and independently addressed", while yours will say "good", "competent", "able to address areas of weakness that were identified for him" & "met expectations in his scribing" instead. It's not bad per se. But it starts to look bad next to the others and certain sub-optimal words choices are certainly noted by the reader.

Also, nobody will ever fault you for being too polite or too professional when making requests of your superiors in this field. The purpose of the email you wrote him is not to remind him that you were a fun scribe who liked to joke around and it is a little alarming that you would say that after you lost a job, because (in your words) you behaved inappropriately because you wanted to be liked. This email is supposed to make him want to professionally endorse you . . . not want you to be his kid or buddy. People have already picked on you for the writing stylistically enough that I think you understand that. I bring it up again, b/c it would leave a very bad taste in my mouth for someone to ask me for a reference but then request that I withhold information! That's ballsy. Too ballsy.

I would not use a LOR from this guy. Med schools expect to have to teach you medicine, but they're not so keen on having to teach you to be a good person. I think many would rather have a person of strong character who's a mediocre scribe than an excellent scribe who has even a hint of boundary/interpersonal/professionalism issues, and there is too much risk that his honest letter would hint at the latter.

I think it is ok to list the experience on AMCAS as I do not think it is common for anybody to contact references (It has been 5 years since I applied, however, so please double check that).

 

[DokterMom]

what industry is this in, out of curiosity?? i'm trying to imagine a job where someone can go home and have their spouse re-do their work for them every day.

Management consulting. He'd rewrite her analyses to make them cogent.

doktermom, out of curiosity then, you would or would not accept the lor from this md in my position? that is, you think this doc would write me an overall negative-in-tone lor?

If I were writing your letter, I'd speak the truth as I saw it. Since you will sign away your rights to see the letter, and since it's an application to join my profession, I might not tap-dance as much as with the letter I mentioned (which was a 'generic future reference letter' that I gave her personally) and would tell the good and the bad. If you were unprofessional, I'd say so. If I felt it was a result of immaturity and that you'd grow out of it, I'd say that too. If you were accurate, efficient, fun to work with - I'd say that too. (Of course, all with great literary style in a few cogent paragraphs.)

Bottom line - If you have better LORs, I'd use them. If you don't, know that you're taking a calculated risk, and that this letter, if it tells a balanced two-sided story, is likely to be taken seriously because it's not the usual 'puff piece'.