Going to medical school without meeting pre-med requirements

[Christopher89]

Hello, all! This is my first time posting on StudentDoctor. I was unaware that this forum existed. I'll make it brief and get straight to my point.

I started my undergraduate back in Fall of 2007 at my state university. Initially, I was interested in pursuing pre-medicine and attending medical school. Nonetheless, I did awful in the required courses that I managed to take during my freshman and sophomore years. Here is a compilation of my math and science fails...

First semester:

• General Chemistry I - D
• General Chemistry I Lab - C
• Intro to Statistics - B

Second semester:

• General Chemistry I (retake) - C
• Physics I - C

Third semester:

• General Chemistry II - D
• Chemistry Chemistry II Lab - B
• Biology I - D
• Biology I Lab - B
• Advanced Statistics - A

Fourth semester:

• General Chemistry II (retake) - F
• Biology I (retake) - C

My science/math GPA was somewhere in the low 2.0 region, not even nearly close to garnering an acceptance letter to an accredited school.

In Fall of 2009, I transferred to Syracuse University. I graduated in May of 2012 with a solid 4.0 and a Bachelor's in International Relations. I'm currently pursuing my Master's in International Affairs at the Walsh School of Georgetown University. But there's a catch...

When I transferred to SU, I had not given up on my dreams of pursuing pre-medicine. At the same time, I did not want to continue dragging down my GPA with science and math courses. As a result, I began independently studying and learning material on my own time from MCAT books and online guides. In other words, I have been studying for the MCAT for approximately 5 years. I took it for the first time on January 25th and -- believe it or not -- here are the results...

Total: 43
PS - 14
VR - 15
BS - 14

I know that seems appalling, especially after doing horrendously in my courses, but you have to remember that I've studied almost every day for this exam since I was 20 years old. I'm now 25 and graduating this May with my M.I.A.

I know I should have asked this many years ago before my pursuit, but do I have a chance of admission into any schools perhaps? Can schools make exceptions like this? I have medical experience as well. I managed well over 250 hours of shadowing (general practice, family, and a surgeon), a summerlong internship after my second year at Syracuse, and I did research on HIV acquisition for almost 2 years. Tell me what you think.

- Chris

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[dudeliness]

Hello, all! This is my first time posting on StudentDoctor. I was unaware that this forum existed. I'll make it brief and get straight to my point.

I started my undergraduate back in Fall of 2007 at my state university. Initially, I was interested in pursuing pre-medicine and attending medical school. Nonetheless, I did awful in the required courses that I managed to take during my freshman and sophomore years. Here is a compilation of my math and science fails...

First semester:

• General Chemistry I - D
• General Chemistry I Lab - C
• Intro to Statistics - B

Second semester:

• General Chemistry I (retake) - C
• Physics I - C

Third semester:

• General Chemistry II - D
• Chemistry Chemistry II Lab - B
• Biology I - D
• Biology I Lab - B
• Advanced Statistics - A

Fourth semester:

• General Chemistry II (retake) - F
• Biology I (retake) - C

My science/math GPA was somewhere in the low 2.0 region, not even nearly close to garnering an acceptance letter to an accredited school.

In Fall of 2009, I transferred to Syracuse University. I graduated in May of 2012 with a solid 4.0 and a Bachelor's in International Relations. I'm currently pursuing my Master's in International Affairs at the Walsh School of Georgetown University. But there's a catch...

When I transferred to SU, I had not given up on my dreams of pursuing pre-medicine. At the same time, I did not want to continue dragging down my GPA with science and math courses. As a result, I began independently studying and learning material on my own time from MCAT books and online guides. In other words, I have been studying for the MCAT for approximately 5 years. I took it for the first time on January 25th and -- believe it or not -- here are the results...

Total: 43
PS - 14
VR - 15
BS - 14

I know that seems appalling, especially after doing horrendously in my courses, but you have to remember that I've studied almost every day for this exam since I was 20 years old. I'm now 25 and graduating this May with my M.I.A.

I know I should have asked this many years ago before my pursuit, but do I have a chance of admission into any schools perhaps? Can schools make exceptions like this? I have medical experience as well. I managed well over 250 hours of shadowing (general practice, family, and a surgeon), a summerlong internship after my second year at Syracuse, and I did research on HIV acquisition for almost 2 years. Tell me what you think.

- Chris

First of all, awesome job on the MCAT!

Have you looked into applying to DO schools? If you were to retake some of your lowest grades and get your sGPA and cGPA up to a 3.0 you could very well get in somewhere. For sure you would have to be prepared to answer the question of why such a high MCAT and such a low GPA, but it sounds like you've got that part down at least.
I don't really have experience with the MD side of things so I'll have to leave that up to other people, but I know that many schools have a "hard cutoff" for minimum GPA, meaning if you don't make it above that minimum they won't even look at your application. Regardless of MCAT.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

No prerequisites? Then no acceptance. The easiest way in is if you retake and apply DO.

 

[dr876]

Great job on the MCAT! Don't give up. I would apply to med schools this cycle and post bacc programs. Try to start a post bacc this Fall. do a one year post bacc and do a stellar job in those classes then off to med school you go. Impress them with your personal statement, be honest about your journey and I believe you'll succeed. Include DO schools in your list but don't limit yourself to them. With a superb MCAT score and great post bacc grades (i think its better to do undergrad classes not masters classes for your post bacc) and your shadowing experience and perseverance I believe there's a med school out there that will accept you. Good Luck! Don't be discouraged and don't give up!

 

[dr876]

Also, get the MSAR online and take a look at schools that have lower GPA requirements to increase your chances of getting in. Meharry, Howard, Mercer (if you're a GA resident), Medical College of Georgia, UNT (DO), NOVA, GA-PCOM and many others

 

[DocWinter]

As far as I know, no schools will let any student forgo the required courses with an acceptable grade to enter medical school, even if they have aced the MCAT or won the noble prize.
Congrats on a unbelievably excellent MCAT score. At least, should you take the retake pre-reqs, you should know the material very, very well.

 

[QofQuimica]

As someone who applied to med school after scoring a 43 on the MCAT, I can tell you that yes, you need to retake the prereqs and get decent grades in them (ideally all As and Bs but nothing below a C). Unfortunately, acing the MCAT doesn't make up for all those years of subpar performance in your classes. On the bright side, look at it this way: you're obviously capable of learning the material and doing well. So if you want to go to med school, I suggest that you do a year-long full-time post bac to knock all the prereqs out, and then you can apply next summer.

 

[malaika]

Total: 43
PS - 14
VR - 15
BS - 14

- Chris

Holy $h!tttt
Daaayum!!!! 43? You need an award! I think you should retake your courses, as much as you can tho.
Can I be your friend pretty please?

 

[Goro]

Chances of acceptance at any school are ZERO. You have shown that you're merely a good test taker. You need to convince us that you can do well in medical school. the excellent performance in your new school shows much promise, but you MUUST re-take all of your F/D/C science coursework.

You can do this at a CC over a two year period.

What is your current cGPA and sGPA?

Easiest route will be to go for DO programs, but ace all the pre-reqs and you'll be fine at a good number of schools.

Have you done all the necessary shadowing, volunteer work???

 

[Goro]

These are HBCs. Unless OP is a URM, then unrealistic to mention these.

Also, get the MSAR online and take a look at schools that have lower GPA requirements to increase your chances of getting in. Meharry, Howard,

 

[Gfliptastic]

As wonderfully great a 43 on the MCAT is, it doesn't preclude you from completing the prereqs like the rest of us w/ lowly mid-30's scores. And like a few people are eluding to, a great MCAT doesn't guarantee you getting in, even after you finish the prereqs.

Using your score (but not using you yourself) as an example, imagine Rainman getting a 45 on the MCAT. In the interview, he would NOT present himself as "future doctor" material. And thus be sent back to Charlie Babbett. And while I'm on a movie-trip, to paraphrase Kumar (of Harold & Kumar), having a huge man bit doesn't mean you have to do porn.

I can show you a few kids in my class who had far more fantastic MCAT scores I wouldn't trust w/ a cadaver as far as being doctors, diagnosing or treating. In fact, I know quite a few instances where I was given a patient over someone far more "accomplished" in med school (i.e. - better preclinical GPA's higher Step 1 scores) than I was at the time -- because I was better at taking a complete HPI and more empathic/friendly.

In summary, congrats on your accomplishment! On that alone, it doesn't mean you are automatically in med school. And doesn't mean you can necessarily handle the sheer rigor of med school. Nor does it mean you are a going to be an excellent clinician. Temper your OWN expectations about the med school journey.

 

[Noneuclidean]

I have a similar question to add to Chris's... For someone who graduated in a different field (high GPA, including sci and math, but not much chem) and scored well on the MCAT, how do schools look at applicants still completing the last couple pre-reqs (o-chem, specifically)?

I have read that they have to be completed prior to matriculation, so I'm hoping that's not a problem. Did any of you still wrapping up your pre-reqs run into that with adcoms?

 

[DocWinter]

I have a similar question to add to Chris's... For someone who graduated in a different field (high GPA, including sci and math, but not much chem) and scored well on the MCAT, how do schools look at applicants still completing the last couple pre-reqs (o-chem, specifically)?

I have read that they have to be completed prior to matriculation, so I'm hoping that's not a problem. Did any of you still wrapping up your pre-reqs run into that with adcoms?

If you're asking if you can still be accepted while working on your last of the pre reqs, the answer is yes. Having good grades in courses wrapped up will give you credibility.

yes, you need them completed to matriculate, but not to gain acceptance. The acceptance is conditional on you finishing what your pre reqs

 

[SN12357]

I have a similar question to add to Chris's... For someone who graduated in a different field (high GPA, including sci and math, but not much chem) and scored well on the MCAT, how do schools look at applicants still completing the last couple pre-reqs (o-chem, specifically)?

I have read that they have to be completed prior to matriculation, so I'm hoping that's not a problem. Did any of you still wrapping up your pre-reqs run into that with adcoms?

If your academic history and MCAT are strong enough that the admissions committee has no reason to doubt your capabilities, then taking a last prereq or two during the application cycle is fine. I took my last class that way, I think a few other people around here did too.

If your academic background raises doubts about your ability to handle med school coursework than you'll want to have everything done before applying.

 

[crazy87]

Damn, NICE SCORE. I second (third, fourth) some of these above recommendations to retake. I'm sure you will do fine in the re-take and pre-requisite courses since you're obviously familiar with the MCAT content. Do a community college for the courses you need maybe. Very cheap. But yeah, get 'em all done for sure.

 

[malaika]

These are HBCs. Unless OP is a URM, then unrealistic to mention these.

Also, get the MSAR online and take a look at schools that have lower GPA requirements to increase your chances of getting in. Meharry, Howard,

Jeezz...can I translate this to mean, these schools get no respect from the Med community?

 

[Goro]

No, it means that is if you have a GPA of 3.4 and an MCAT of 30, your best chances are with these schools, like Rosy F or NYMC, rather than Penn or Harvard. Low tier, to me, doesn't mean low quality. It means their floors are lower for applicant competitiveness, even if their avg GPA might be quite high. Another way of looking at it is that these schools might be more willing to take a chance on students who have been less than stellar academically in some way.

Jeezz...can I translate this to mean, these schools get no respect from the Med community?

 

[LingoLaine]

Going to medical school without meeting pre-med requirements

Not going to happen. Though it appears you have actually taken the pre-reqs, right? Doing badly does not equal not doing.

 

[pietachok]

These are HBCs. Unless OP is a URM, then unrealistic to mention these.

Also, get the MSAR online and take a look at schools that have lower GPA requirements to increase your chances of getting in. Meharry, Howard,

In and of itself being a non-URM doesn't make these unrealistic. I and a few of my peers were admitted to these programs in spite of being nonURM after significant employment and/or research aligned with their missions. One of them attended Howard. OP is getting an IA Masters in DC and has a background in HIV research, so he/she might actually have some experiences/strengths attractive to these schools.

I know that seems appalling, especially after doing horrendously in my courses, but you have to remember that I've studied almost every day for this exam since I was 20 years old. I'm now 25 and graduating this May with my M.I.A.

I don't know if this is some bizarre trolling or not. Why did you take the MCAT before having the pre-reqs completed?

MCAT scores expire. You don't just need to complete your requirements with passing grades (C and above), you need to do it and have a successful application before your MCAT score expires. So, when you plan to retake your classes, you have to pay attention to when they're available. G Chem II, Orgo I, Orgo II often must be taken sequentially, and a few schools have Chem pre-reqs before allowing you in Bio II. I'm not sure what the deal is with biochem now that it's being required by more schools. This sets you up easily for 1.5 years depending on what your institution has available, and then if you have one unsuccessful application cycle (a real possibility given your uGPA), you're MCAT could start expiring at some institutions, so I'd be careful to make sure you can get the classes *when you need them.*

 

[wholeheartedly]

Glad you pointed out the MCAT expiration issue. OP, need to get an MSAR and make sure you get your required stuff done and apply before your MCAT expires. That's going to be different for each school (some say MCAT is good for 2 years, some 3, some 4). Plus you have the added issue of the new MCAT coming out. Best data I could find on the AAMC website said they'd stop reporting old version mcat scores in 2017 or 2018.

MCAT scores expire. You don't just need to complete your requirements with passing grades (C and above), you need to do it and have a successful application before your MCAT score expires. So, when you plan to retake your classes, you have to pay attention to when they're available. G Chem II, Orgo I, Orgo II often must be taken sequentially, and a few schools have Chem pre-reqs before allowing you in Bio II. I'm not sure what the deal is with biochem now that it's being required by more schools. This sets you up easily for 1.5 years depending on what your institution has available, and then if you have one unsuccessful application cycle (a real possibility given your uGPA), you're MCAT could start expiring at some institutions, so I'd be careful to make sure you can get the classes *when you need them.*

 

[malaika]

No, it means that is if you have a GPA of 3.4 and an MCAT of 30, your best chances are with these schools, like Rosy F or NYMC, rather than Penn or Harvard. Low tier, to me, doesn't mean low quality. It means their floors are lower for applicant competitiveness, even if their avg GPA might be quite high. Another way of looking at it is that these schools might be more willing to take a chance on students who have been less than stellar academically in some way.

Oh i see..thank you
Do you know where I can find a list of what some consider low-tier, mid-tier or high-tier (except from the obvious ones)?

 

[Law2Doc]

OP you absolutely need to take the prereqs, and I suspect a lot of schools will not count any class you got a D in. I've heard of programs looking the other way on a single prereq class, but never 5-6. So at a minimum, i suspect you need Gen Chem 2, bio 2, organic chem 1&2 plus labs, physics 1&2 plus labs. And for some places you might need biochem. I don't know how long this will take to knock these all off, but there's a very good chance your MCAT will expire before you complete them, which is why you really shouldn't have put the cart before the horse. That being said, if you can enroll someplace and bang out mostly A's in all these objects, you probably should have a decent shot someplace. If you take these courses and get C's, everyplace will consider your Mcat a fluke.

 

[Law2Doc]

Oh i see..thank you
Do you know where I can find a list of what some consider low-tier, mid-tier or high-tier (except from the obvious ones)?

There is no official tiering of med schools. Premeds on sdn often draw their own conclusions based on US News research ranking and the published msar stats.

 

[Goro]

An investment in MSAR online is a wise choice.

Oh i see..thank you
Do you know where I can find a list of what some consider low-tier, mid-tier or high-tier (except from the obvious ones)?

 

[mpfc]

I am going against everyone else and will say that you would indeed have a chance of getting accepted without the prereqs but with a 43 MCAT. Some schools no longer have specific prereqs. For example USC:
http://keck.usc.edu/en/About/Administrative_Offices/Office_of_MD_Admissions/Admissions_Process.aspx

I know this is true of a couple other schools as well.
Now the question is whether it makes sense for you to not take the courses. While you may be able to get into some schools without the prerequisites, you would be a much less competitive applicant. You are still relatively young at 25 and taking a year or two of courses (and doing well) might give you opportunities that may not be available otherwise. It may be the difference between getting into a school period and getting into the school of your choice. It may also be the difference between getting a full ride somewhere and simply getting accepted. If getting into med school as soon as possible is the priority for whatever reason then I might take the risk, but do that knowing that if you don't get it you are likely going to be seen as less competitive as a re-applicant.

 

[Law2Doc]

I am going against everyone else and will say that you would indeed have a chance of getting accepted without the prereqs but with a 43 MCAT. Some schools no longer have specific prereqs. For example USC:
http://keck.usc.edu/en/About/Administrative_Offices/Office_of_MD_Admissions/Admissions_Process.aspx

I know this is true of a couple other schools as well.
Now the question is whether it makes sense for you to not take the courses. While you may be able to get into some schools without the prerequisites, you would be a much less competitive applicant. You are still relatively young at 25 and taking a year or two of courses (and doing well) might give you opportunities that may not be available otherwise. It may be the difference between getting into a school period and getting into the school of your choice. It may also be the difference between getting a full ride somewhere and simply getting accepted. If getting into med school as soon as possible is the priority for whatever reason then I might take the risk, but do that knowing that if you don't get it you are likely going to be seen as less competitive as a re-applicant.

Meh, a program that has "recommended" but not required coursework isn't going to throw open the doors for a high MCAT score and a slate of C's and D's. Thats not a fair reading of what progrms like keck are doing. Med schools are more competitive than that. This really just means the guy who took a ton of upper level PChem or engineering courses while serving in the armed forces or training for the Olympics won't be barred from applying because he missed bio 101. In general you need the prereqs unless your record is the functional equivalent. Schools that have statements like keck give themselves leeway to decide what's the functional equivalent, but don't really create a Situation where you can skip the prereqs and just jump to te MCAT. I'd say with poor grades in half the prereqs, and low grades in a few retakes as well, OP has no choice but to start retaking them. There isn't anyone in any med school with C's and D's in just half the prereqs no matter what the Mcat. There just isn't. More than that, a track record of having flubbed a bunch of college science courses without evidence that OP has figured things out and reversed that trend is going to be regarded as a huge red flag for how OP will do in med school science courses. The MCAT doesn't really address this -- it's less similar to med school courses than undergrad courses. So It probably was a mistake for OP to jump right to the MCAT because those expire in three years and it's now a race. The good news is that if he has figured things out, he can go someplace open enrollment, bang out the courses with straight A's in about a Year and will ne in good shape. The bad news is if he doesn't get straight A's it undermines his MCAT score as a fluke. So the classic rock and hard place. Just goes to how, in general, it's better to get advice before launching into a course of action, not take the MCAT and then ask for advice about the prereqs.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Hello, all! This is my first time posting on StudentDoctor. I was unaware that this forum existed. I'll make it brief and get straight to my point.

I started my undergraduate back in Fall of 2007 at my state university. Initially, I was interested in pursuing pre-medicine and attending medical school. Nonetheless, I did awful in the required courses that I managed to take during my freshman and sophomore years. Here is a compilation of my math and science fails...

First semester:

• General Chemistry I - D
• General Chemistry I Lab - C
• Intro to Statistics - B

Second semester:

• General Chemistry I (retake) - C
• Physics I - C

Third semester:

• General Chemistry II - D
• Chemistry Chemistry II Lab - B
• Biology I - D
• Biology I Lab - B
• Advanced Statistics - A

Fourth semester:

• General Chemistry II (retake) - F
• Biology I (retake) - C

My science/math GPA was somewhere in the low 2.0 region, not even nearly close to garnering an acceptance letter to an accredited school.

In Fall of 2009, I transferred to Syracuse University. I graduated in May of 2012 with a solid 4.0 and a Bachelor's in International Relations. I'm currently pursuing my Master's in International Affairs at the Walsh School of Georgetown University. But there's a catch...

When I transferred to SU, I had not given up on my dreams of pursuing pre-medicine. At the same time, I did not want to continue dragging down my GPA with science and math courses. As a result, I began independently studying and learning material on my own time from MCAT books and online guides. In other words, I have been studying for the MCAT for approximately 5 years. I took it for the first time on January 25th and -- believe it or not -- here are the results...

Total: 43
PS - 14
VR - 15
BS - 14

I know that seems appalling, especially after doing horrendously in my courses, but you have to remember that I've studied almost every day for this exam since I was 20 years old. I'm now 25 and graduating this May with my M.I.A.

I know I should have asked this many years ago before my pursuit, but do I have a chance of admission into any schools perhaps? Can schools make exceptions like this? I have medical experience as well. I managed well over 250 hours of shadowing (general practice, family, and a surgeon), a summerlong internship after my second year at Syracuse, and I did research on HIV acquisition for almost 2 years. Tell me what you think.

- Chris

Really nice job on the MCAT.

I was accepted to allopathic medical schools with missing prerequisites (English...for what it's worth; they probably overlooked it since I'm from the U.K. ) . Medical school application is now so competitive that they will use ANY reason to reject an application and trim that massive applicant pool. With those past grades, you give them an obvious reason. Pease understand it has nothing todo with actual ability, just the perception of 'perceived problems' once accepted.

Agree with the others - DO school or some fast-track way to complete pre-requisites in a year or so before that wonderful MCAT expires. Good luck!

 

[Bru]

Your goal now should be:

• Re-take all the needed classes as well as most of the missing pre-reqs.
• Get As in all of them
• do all of this before that MCAT score expires.

Most school take scores from the past 2-3 years. Some take even older scores. Maybe check specific schools you are looking at.

As stated above, you may apply before you have completed ALL of the pre-reqs but really you should have the lion's share completed (and well) before submitted your app.

I think the above will have the best change of success but either way you app is going to cause some serious head-scratching by adcoms.

 

[malaika]

If I can do it, you can. I am only missing 1 however and need to do it before I matriculate.

 

[Chimichica]

look for schools that arent looking for pre-reqs anymore and also just go for it, you never know
Here is my honest opinion, if you saw someone ace a test like that and then not do well in class wouldnt you think they were just not great at class work but might be a super genius or something?! I mean I would think he he doesnt have the requirements but Einstein sucked in school too. I hate the way school is taught in the US, and the MCAT shows how weak the academics are here.

 

[gyngyn]

Oh i see..thank you
Do you know where I can find a list of what some consider low-tier, mid-tier or high-tier (except from the obvious ones)?

But, you're already a medical student.... It says so right there in your status.

 

[gyngyn]

look for schools that arent looking for pre-reqs anymore and also just go for it, you never know
Here is my honest opinion, if you saw someone ace a test like that and then not do well in class wouldnt you think they were just not great at class work but might be a super genius or something?! I mean I would think he he doesnt have the requirements but Einstein sucked in school too. I hate the way school is taught in the US, and the MCAT shows how weak the academics are here.

The schools that don't have pre-reqs are no less likely than others to identify a discordance this dramatic. What distinguishes a person with the capacity to score this well on a single day who apparently lacks the ability to show up over time for the mundane? Probably not qualities one is looking for in a physician, however smart.

Schools without specific required classes still expect that you have distinguished yourself (in a good way) in your UG career, perhaps more so, given the general quality of these schools.

 

[Rocketdog]

Something to remember: Good grades and a stellar MCAT score are but 2...out of MANY things to consider when it comes to medical school admissions and subsequent practice as a Physician. Have you thought about what it means to practice medicine? What are your experiences in the medical profession? Have you had any clinical exposure? What is your involvement in the (health) community? Is medicine your ultimate lifetime profession, or are you "passing through" to something more suited to you?

There are MANY factors in the admissions process. Grades and MCAT scores are but two!

 

[Law2Doc]

...
Here is my honest opinion, if you saw someone ace a test like that and then not do well in class wouldnt you think they were just not great at class work but might be a super genius or something?! I mean I would think he he doesnt have the requirements but Einstein sucked in school too. I hate the way school is taught in the US, and the MCAT shows how weak the academics are here.

College science courses are deemed a much better proxy for med school coursework than the Mcat. Does you no good to be a genius if you aren't going to make it through the non clinical years. Nobody is going to ignore a big disparity and take his word for it that he has fixed things without him acing a bunch of the remaining prerequisite classes.

 

[Law2Doc]

Something to remember: Good grades and a stellar MCAT score are but 2...out of MANY things to consider when it comes to medical school admissions and subsequent practice as a Physician. Have you thought about what it means to practice medicine? What are your experiences in the medical profession? Have you had any clinical exposure? What is your involvement in the (health) community? Is medicine your ultimate lifetime profession, or are you "passing through" to something more suited to you?

There are MANY factors in the admissions process. Grades and MCAT scores are but two!

Yes, but they are among the more important two. But I agree, if OP doesn't have the other stuff that's one more big hurdle.

 

[sampler]

Yes, but they are among the more important two. But I agree, if OP doesn't have the other stuff that's one more big hurdle.

Piggybacking on this idea, but slightly changing the topic, I want to know if I DO have a decent GPA and MCAT, do I really NEED the other stuff to get accepted?? I know this may be blasphemy to even broach but let's say I have a GPA of 3.5 and an MCAT of 34, and I have done SOME shadowing and volunteering at a hospital, and I present myself well in an interview (social skills, intellect), than do I need research experience, for example?? I do not have a great interest in research, getting published, etc., and do not really want to have to worry about squeezing it into my busy life in the time I have leading up to applying if it is not required. I know admissions offices say they like to see research experience but do I really need it with what I described?

 

[Law2Doc]

Piggybacking on this idea, but slightly changing the topic, I want to know if I DO have a decent GPA and MCAT, do I really NEED the other stuff to get accepted?? I know this may be blasphemy to even broach but let's say I have a GPA of 3.5 and an MCAT of 34, and I have done SOME shadowing and volunteering at a hospital, and I present myself well in an interview (social skills, intellect), than do I need research experience, for example?? I do not have a great interest in research, getting published, etc., and do not really want to have to worry about squeezing it into my busy life in the time I have leading up to applying if it is not required. I know admissions offices say they like to see research experience but do I really need it with what I described?

You don't need research for non research heavy programs, but health ECs are more or less mandatory. Whether or not your "some" volunteering and shadowing is enough depends on what you mean by some. Sounds like you probably need more. In particular nontrads are expected to be better thought out an to have really looked before they leaped, so a long track record of health ECs is invaluable.

I wouldn't do "research" if you aren't going to enjoy it, but would suggest that in many specialties (pretty much if your ultimate target is anything competitive or any programs at academic centers) your odds of getting anywhere will be considerably better if you develop a passion for it. Also bear in mind that most research we are talking about in medicine isn't "bench" research, it's clinical. Working with patients, new meds, new technology. You wouldn't need to sit in a lab and run gels, although some if us also did some of that too (but that was not the more sought after or publishable research.) if you hate clinical research you might not really enjoy the underlying clinical practice either.

Also if you think you have a "busy life" now, just wait until you are trying to squeeze research into a residents schedule.

 

[Hakuna Matata]

As others have said, I would suggest retaking all required coursework (DO schools have grade replacement so it shouldn't hurt you too much). Great job on the MCAT! And good luck!

 

[QofQuimica]

look for schools that arent looking for pre-reqs anymore and also just go for it, you never know
Here is my honest opinion, if you saw someone ace a test like that and then not do well in class wouldnt you think they were just not great at class work but might be a super genius or something?! I mean I would think he he doesnt have the requirements but Einstein sucked in school too. I hate the way school is taught in the US, and the MCAT shows how weak the academics are here.

There's a reason why Einstein became a physicist and not a physician. He probably couldn't have hacked it in med school - not because he wasn't smart enough (obviously), but because excelling in classes and on standardized exams is an absolutely *essential* component of becoming a physician. The admissions process screens for people who do well in school and on standardized exams because without those skills, you can't become a licensed, practicing physician. If you don't get through your preclinical years and pass Step 1, it doesn't matter how great you are with patients; you'll never get the chance to set foot in the hospital. If you don't pass your licensing exams or obtain a diploma from your med school, you will not be granted a license and will not be allowed to practice medicine in any state in this country, regardless of how brilliant you are.

Fact is, you do not need to be a genius to become a physician; anyone with a normal IQ of 100 and a strong enough work ethic could do it. But you do need to be able to pass your classes *and* pass your board exams. It's not enough to pass one and not the other, or to pass them sometimes and not other times. You have to pass all of your classes and board exams, and pass them consistently, over a period of 7+ years. If you can't do that, you won't make it through this training.

 

[jbeau06]

Rush University in Chicago no longer requires any specific courses for admission, so you could apply there and very well get accepted.

 

[sampler]

You don't need research for non research heavy programs, but health ECs are more or less mandatory. Whether or not your "some" volunteering and shadowing is enough depends on what you mean by some. Sounds like you probably need more. In particular nontrads are expected to be better thought out an to have really looked before they leaped, so a long track record of health ECs is invaluable.

I wouldn't do "research" if you aren't going to enjoy it, but would suggest that in many specialties (pretty much if your ultimate target is anything competitive or any programs at academic centers) your odds of getting anywhere will be considerably better if you develop a passion for it. Also bear in mind that most research we are talking about in medicine isn't "bench" research, it's clinical. Working with patients, new meds, new technology. You wouldn't need to sit in a lab and run gels, although some if us also did some of that too (but that was not the more sought after or publishable research.) if you hate clinical research you might not really enjoy the underlying clinical practice either.

Also if you think you have a "busy life" now, just wait until you are trying to squeeze research into a residents schedule.

OK, well that is some of the best news I've heard in awhile! You are exactly right, my image of "research" was sitting in a lab, running gels, doing titrations, fiddling around with bunsen burners and test tubes and petri dishes; pretty much the stuff I did in Gen and Org Chem labs in undergrad (I disliked gen chem lab, HATED org chem lab, although Bio lab was better and my Physiology lab was quite interesting). I think I may enjoy what you describe as "clinical research." I would want to do something very patient-centered; i am imagining helping to conduct a clinical trial of an experimental drug by interviewing patients, asking about any side effects they experienced, etc. Is this more like what you mean? What other patient-centered research do you think I may want to consider? And since I am a non-trad student who has not been in school for awhile and lives far from my original university, how might I get involved in such research? It's not like I have a professor I can go to and ask if he needs assistance. And would I be "getting published?" I would think that I would be working under the guidance of a Phd or MD who would be the one "getting published"; would my name be on it too? Pardon my ignorance on all of this and thank you very much for your insight

 

[Law2Doc]

OK, well that is some of the best news I've heard in awhile! You are exactly right, my image of "research" was sitting in a lab, running gels, doing titrations, fiddling around with bunsen burners and test tubes and petri dishes; pretty much the stuff I did in Gen and Org Chem labs in undergrad (I disliked gen chem lab, HATED org chem lab, although Bio lab was better and my Physiology lab was quite interesting). I think I may enjoy what you describe as "clinical research." I would want to do something very patient-centered; i am imagining helping to conduct a clinical trial of an experimental drug by interviewing patients, asking about any side effects they experienced, etc. Is this more like what you mean? What other patient-centered research do you think I may want to consider? And since I am a non-trad student who has not been in school for awhile and lives far from my original university, how might I get involved in such research? It's not like I have a professor I can go to and ask if he needs assistance. And would I be "getting published?" I would think that I would be working under the guidance of a Phd or MD who would be the one "getting published"; would my name be on it too? Pardon my ignorance on all of this and thank you very much for your insight

Yeah, what you describe is one potential iteration of clinical research. But it doesn't even need to be an experimental drug. Could be studying a device, procedure or imaging study. Could be off label uses of an existing drug, or studying effects of various foods, meds, diets, activities, environment on various clinically significant indicators, and so on. The potential ideas for clinical research are limitless -- based only on your interests and what you can realistically obtain data on. Eg. You want to do a study on whether hospital stays are shorter for patients forced to eat heart healthy diets? that could be a poster-worthy project. (I'm just making this example up, someone may have done it already).

As to finding someone to work with, that's harder. Best to try and find who is the research coordinator at the local university-affiliated hospital. I'd stay clear of PhDs if you dont want the lab setting. And getting published certainly is the goal but it can be a political issue. Generally unless you substantially contribute and write the paper, and there's an understanding early on with your PI, your name potentially isn't going on it. If you jump onto someone else's project, your name is only going on it if they choose to be magnanimous. but once you are plugged in with people who publish, your odds of getting on things or doing your own project increase. And there's a learning curve, so if you jump through these issues nOw, you won't have the same ones in med school or residency.

 

[EastSide]

Hello, all! This is my first time posting on StudentDoctor. I was unaware that this forum existed. I'll make it brief and get straight to my point.

When I transferred to SU, I had not given up on my dreams of pursuing pre-medicine. At the same time, I did not want to continue dragging down my GPA with science and math courses. As a result, I began independently studying and learning material on my own time from MCAT books and online guides. In other words, I have been studying for the MCAT for approximately 5 years. I took it for the first time on January 25th and -- believe it or not -- here are the results...

Total: 43
PS - 14
VR - 15
BS - 14

- Chris

Firstly, congrats on the stellar score on this notoriously difficult exam.

HOW DID YOU STUDY FOR YOUR MCAT's?!
Only self study with prep books? If so, which company do you recommend?
How many hours/day?
Any tutors, class, or purchased online materials?
How many practice exams have you taken?
Any tips or advice would be much appreciated!