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Gold in the Health Care Law?

Discussion in 'Anesthesiology' started by BLADEMDA, Jul 22, 2010.

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  1. BLADEMDA

    BLADEMDA SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor

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    http://www.resistnet.com/profiles/blogs/gold-coin-sellers-angered-by




    [​IMG]
    Gold Coin Sellers Angered By New Tax Law


    http://www.ktradionetwork.com/nwo/gold-coin-sellers-angered-by-new-...
    Those already outraged by the president's health care legislation now have a new bone of contention — a scarcely noticed tack-on provision to the law that puts gold coin buyers and sellers under closer government scrutiny.

    The issue is rising to the fore just as gold coin dealers are attracting attention over sales tactics.

    Section 9006 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will amend the Internal Revenue Code to expand the scope of Form 1099. Currently, 1099 forms are used to track and report the miscellaneous income associated with services rendered by independent contractors or self-employed individuals.

    Coin Dealers Flipping
    Starting Jan. 1, 2012, Form 1099s will become a means of reporting to the Internal Revenue Service the purchases of all goods and services by small businesses and self-employed people that exceed $600 during a calendar year. Precious metals such as coins and bullion fall into this category and coin dealers have been among those most rankled by the change.

    This provision, intended to mine what the IRS deems a vast reservoir of uncollected income tax, was included in the health care legislation ostensibly as a way to pay for it. The tax code tweak is expected to raise $17 billion over the next 10 years, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.

    Taking an early and vociferous role in opposing the measure is the precious metal and coin industry, according to Diane Piret, industry affairs director for the Industry Council for Tangible Assets. The ICTA, based in Severna Park, Md., is a trade association representing an estimated 5,000 coin and bullion dealers in the United States.

    "Coin dealers not only buy for their inventory from other dealers, but also with great frequency from the public," Piret said. "Most other types of businesses will have a limited number of suppliers from which they buy their goods and products for resale."

    So every time a member of the public sells more than $600 worth of gold to a dealer, Piret said, the transaction will have to be reported to the government by the buyer.

    Pat Heller, who owns Liberty Coin Service in Lansing, Mich., deals with around 1,000 customers every week. Many are individuals looking to protect wealth in an uncertain economy, he said, while others are dealers like him.

    With spot market prices for gold at nearly $1,200 an ounce, Heller estimates that he'll be filling out between 10,000 and 20,000 tax forms per year after the new law takes effect.

    "I'll have to hire two full-time people just to track all this stuff, which cuts into my profitability," he said.

    An issue that combines gold coins, the Obama health care law and the IRS is bound to stir passions. Indeed, trading in gold coins and bars has surged since the financial crisis unfolded and Obama took office, metal dealers said.

    The buying of actual gold, as opposed to futures or options tied to the price of gold, has been a particularly popular trend among Tea Party supporters and others who are fearful of Obama's economic policies, gold industry members such as Heller and Piret said. Conservative/libertarian commentators, such as Fox News Channel's Glenn Beck, routinely tout precious metal on the air as being a safe, shrewd investment in an environment in which the financial system — and paper money backed by the rest of the world's faith in the U.S. government's credit — is viewed as increasingly fragile.

    The recently revealed investigation by California authorities into consumer complaints against Goldline International, which has used Beck as a pitchman, and Superior Gold Group (which has not) has put a spotlight on what one liberal leaning politician, Rep. Anthony Weiner, D-N.Y., calls the "unholy alliance" between gold coin sellers, such as Goldline, and conservative talk personalities, such as Beck.

    Beck, who through his spokesman, Matt Hiltzik, declined to comment for this story, and Goldline marketers portray gold coins as a better alternative to owning bullion in the event that the U.S. government ever decides, as it did under FDR in 1933, to make it illegal for private citizens to own physical gold. At that time, the U.S. dollar was still pegged to the price of gold; the gold standard was abandoned during the Nixon administration.

    Rep. Daniel Lungren, R-Calif., has introduced legislation to repeal the section of the health care bill that would trigger the new tax reporting requirement because he says it's a burden on small businesses.

    "Large corporations have whole divisions to handle such transaction paperwork but for a small business, which doesn't have the manpower, this is yet another brick on their back," Lungren said in a statement e-mailed to ABCNews.com. "Everyone agrees that small businesses are job creators and the engine which drives the American economy. I am dumfounded that this Administration is doing all it can to make it more difficult for businesses to succeed rather than doing all it can to help them grow."

    The ICTA's Piret says identity theft is another concern because criminals may set up shops specifically to extract personal information that would accompany the filing out of a 1099.

    The office of the National Taxpayer Advocate, a citizen's ombudsman within the IRS, issued a report June 30 that said the new rule "may present significant administrative challenges to taxpayers and the IRS."

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  2. sevoflurane

    sevoflurane Ride

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    Yes... I saw this last night on the Kudlow Report. Obama needs to go away.
  3. IlDestriero

    IlDestriero Ether Man

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    Imagine that. Hidden things in the healthcare bill. I don't believe it.
    They should all be put out on their backsides.
    I would bet less than 20% of the supporters even knew about this, and far fewer understood the implications. Maybe 20% is way too optimistic.
    Typical. I can't wait to hear what else is in there.
  4. urge

    urge

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    Another insidious tax hike. With all that paper trail it will be easy to confiscate gold once more.
  5. dr doze

    dr doze Neocon Gold Donor

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    Technically it is not a tax hike. It is just a means of making sure the government knows about the transaction. Appreciation on gold bullion has for a long time been subject to a special 28% "collectibles" tax even if held for many years.
  6. urge

    urge

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    Not a rate hike, a "grasp" hike.

    Tax hike nonetheless.

    Pretty soon they'll tax your kid's lunch money.
  7. Fastrach

    Fastrach New Member

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    These leeches will not stop until we're all broke, destitute, and homogenized.
  8. dr doze

    dr doze Neocon Gold Donor

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    -We can't make everybody rich, but we can make everybody poor.
  9. oldguy55

    oldguy55 ASA Member

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    You folks do understand, don't you, that this is not just a problem for gold coin dealers?

    If you are a business, maybe an S-corporation with three MD employees and nobody else, and sometimes pay somebody $600 for something, for example accounting services or legal advice or to buy a new computer, you will need to file 1099 forms for each of these vendors.

    This is going to be a huge burden for any small business and a boon for the CPAs and tax attorneys.
  10. dr doze

    dr doze Neocon Gold Donor

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    Simple. With every check that the business writes it encloses a 1099. Beautiful. F***'n Beautiful. Can't imagine that it will actually go through with that interpretation.
  11. BLADEMDA

    BLADEMDA SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor

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    The "problem" Obama and the IRS (Rand calls them the looters) have is that U.S. minted coins are also U.S. currency. For more than a hundred years U.S. Citizens have been using gold coins from the U.S. mint to buy and sell goods.
    The Supreme Court has recognized the U.S. gold mint currency as just that- currency.

    Thus, the IRS and Obama (the looters) are powerless to stop individual citizens from using these U.S. coins to buy and sell goods at agreed upon prices. For example, I can use U.S. mint one ounce coins to buy a car which sells for $30,000. The dealer agrees to accept 25 U.S. one ounce gold coins plus a few more for taxes. We get the agreement in writing and I drive out with my new car. If I paid $300 for those coins the IRS never collected the taxes owed on the appreciation of that U.S. currency. It isn't my fault that the U.S. govt. has allowed inflation to erode the value of Federal fiat currency while U.S. minted gold currency held its value.

    I see a big future in using U.S. minted currency to buy and sell goods. It is legal and we all get real currency to trade with. Until the Socialists get the majority on the Supreme Court the IRS is powerless to stop us from using U.S. minted coins as actual currency with the value of those said coins established by the marketplace.

    Blade
  12. BLADEMDA

    BLADEMDA SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor

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    • 3:59 pm July 22, 2010
    • Not paying attention wrote:
    You’re not paying attention people, with a few exceptions here. A 1099 in this case, regarding bullion transactions, doesn’t report income whatsoever. It simply reports POTENTIALLY ONE HALF of an income opportunity. So, I bought silver at 7 dollars/oz. in ‘05, and sell it for 28 in ‘12. I make a profit, of course. I’m supposed to pay taxes, of course. But the 1099 doesn’t indicate anything about a profit. It only shows the gross amount of business done via my sales to them during the course of the year. It doesn’t show what was purchased, the date it was purchased, and that is all to remain unknown. If the IRS asks someone about the other half of the transaction, they can show them a hand-made, phony receipt from a coin store or pawn shop from back in ‘09 that’s no longer in business, showing they paid 30 an oz. back then. The IRS can’t prove they’re lying and the person won’t pay any tax on their gain, since they’ll be showing a loss. Neither will the next guy or the guy after that. The IRS won’t collect any additional taxes from this, because bullion investors are the smartest of them all, and will never declare any gain. Since the 1099 shows no gain, or thus income, it accomplishes nothing. If anything, many bullion purchasers will take their business to craigslist, ebay, other private internet deals, and coin shows more often, taking away business from the coin dealers, in order to protect their privacy of ownership. This will bankrupt the smaller coin shops, which is the point of their protesting this 1099 joke. The bullion owners will just take note of the names of bankrupt coin shops, and use their name on phony hand-made receipts dating prior to 2012, to show the IRS, if later audited regarding their bullion transactions, the other end of their transaction. Receipts don’t require a signature of any kind, so the IRS will never be able to prove how much you paid for these coins. The IRS will never know if you profited, if you want it that way. They can only dream about collecting more taxes with this 1099 reporting joke in effect. The idea of fabricating hand-made purchase receipts from pre- 2012 will be well-known information to all bullion owners, spread over the internet in no time, to present to IRS auditors, if needed. However, what if bullion prices go very parabolic post 2012, and nobody can get away with not reporting a profit, in the event of an audit. Then the IRS will indeed collect. Chances are therefore that this is the case, and that’s why bullion shop transactions were intentionally included in this bill. Chances are, the big banksters wrote this section of the bill, because this isn’t something that the big pharma guys would’ve come up with in a health-related bill. The way I read it is that the big banksters (who collect some of that IRS money by the way, via interest payments on the accumulated budget deficit) already know that gold and silver will go parabolic, via an expected hyperinflation, and are preparing in advance on how to collect some free money that they otherwise wouldn’t be able to track and thus audit. They expect a return of the Dow/Gold ratio of 1, once again, while trying to maintain the Dow at these levels with their plunge protection team constantly at work. Therefore, an 8-fold move in bullion from here on out is likely to happen before this bull market in precious metals end, and the IRS is being set up to collect on it.
  13. countingdays

    countingdays SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

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    That's the problem right there. Why should you be expected to pay taxes on appreciation that didn't take place? Your gold won't really go up in value. There's no real profit to tax. In reality, your gold just holds its value while the dollar goes down. The fed wants to steal your money for refusing to allow them to depreciate it by refusing to hold dollars. They view maintaining wealth as profit. That's a bad sign.
  14. dr doze

    dr doze Neocon Gold Donor

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    If this practice becomes widespread, I have no doubt that laws will be rewritten to clamp down on it.
  15. BLADEMDA

    BLADEMDA SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor

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    Yes. But, are those Socialist laws Constitutional? As it stands today the vote will be 5-4 against any law restricting the use of U.S. mint coins as currency as that has been the precedent for over 100 years.
  16. IlDestriero

    IlDestriero Ether Man

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    Try bringing 50 gold coins down to the Mercedes dealer and see what the manager says when you explain how it is your constitutionally protected right to use the coins as currency. Something tells me you'll be back in an hour with a check from Bank of America.
  17. dr doze

    dr doze Neocon Gold Donor

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    An example of his point. The American Eagle 1 ounce gold coin has a face value of $50, the 1/10 oz. has a face value of $5. The current market value is about $1200 and $120 respectively. Let's say I want to pay you for a job that has a current market value of about $10,000. I could pay you say 8 1 oz coins worth approx $9500. You can currently legally declare only $400 of income received for this job. (The face value of the coins). The advantage to me is that You will probably take somewhat less than a full market value for the job since you now only have to pay taxes on $400 instead of $10,000. Like I said if this practice becomes widespread, the laws and the courts will evolve to clamp down on it.
  18. IlDestriero

    IlDestriero Ether Man

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    Well if you show up with 1000 $50 gold coins he might give you an E class, but it probably wouldn't have any options.:laugh:
  19. NRAI2001

    NRAI2001 3K Member

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    It's pretty dam ridiculous that things like this can be tacked onto a "healthcare " bill..
  20. BLADEMDA

    BLADEMDA SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor

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    Think about this scenario: The courts declare that the U.S. mint coins must be used at spot price of gold; okay, so I pay with the current spot price of gold when I buy the car. I pay the dealer the car's cost plus taxes, etc in gold.

    I don't need to fill ou t a 1099 form as I used my own money to buy an item. The money was U.S. minted coins. Where is the tax evasion in this? Why do I have to convert my U.S. currency to another U.S. currency to buy an item?
    I paid the govt. its fair shair of taxes on my purchase. I didnt attempt to pay taxes on 1/20th the actual value of the purchase like some have done in the past.
  21. dr doze

    dr doze Neocon Gold Donor

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    I am sure they will find a way to suppress this practice. There used to be "barter networks" -till the courts decided these were "tax avoidance" techniques and thus illegal. Despite the fact the coins are a form of US currency, you have not paid your collectibles tax. Right now this is legal but if it becomes widespread, I have no doubt that the courts will treat it the same as if you offered to transfer a highly appreciated stock to the car dealer in exchange for the car. You would be avoiding capital gains taxes that you owe.
  22. Narcotized

    Narcotized

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    .
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2010
  23. Narcotized

    Narcotized

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