Good "course load" vs. good course "success"?

[AniSci]

Okay, so I know this question has been asked already and if I had found what I was looking for with those questions, I wouldn't be asking mine.

So please don't post links or smart-aleck responses.

I'm a senior animal science major with a good GPA, etc., and I've got a summer of biochem (gag) and one last Fall semester to finish up (PHYS 2, microbiology, and a 1-credit animal ethics course) before I can call myself done and graduated.

But I'm burned out. So burned out. Like if it weren't my last "real" semester right now, I might just quit. My hatred for all things undergrad and pre-req has slowly increased since junior year and I'm at my tipping point. I want to go to vet school, I want to be a veterinarian, and I'm 100% willing to do all that vet school throws at me.

But to me, undergrad is a complete waste of my emotional/mental energy and patience. Having to do well on so many difficult classes (that have to be taken in clusters, so the difficulty and time-consumption is amplified) and learn material that I'll never even really "use" per se is so frustrating to me. Not to say that I'll never use any of it, but the important stuff I know I'll remember and carry over into vet school with me.

Anyway.
About next semester.
Should I bother going full-time?? How awful will it look on a vet school application? Do they actually look at your course load and are like "No, you can't handle us."
I know scholarship-wise, full time is necessary. But my school's tuition isn't too bad, and besides, after 4 years, by year five most of my scholarship money has run out by now. So I'll be paying a lot of it myself anyway...
I've been full time (averaging about 14-15 hours a semester) my entire college career and doing well. And I KNOW vet school course loads are WAY more, but again...I'm willing to handle that. I can handle it. It's things I'm really passionate & motivated about--where there's a will, there's a way.
But right now I really just want to do well (better than I've been doing since the burn out really hit) to make sure my GPA stays up, and start to rebuild myself emotionally and mentally. I also want to find time to do more volunteer work and maybe find a clinic to work at to get more of a variety of experience while I'm waiting to get through the application process.

So what would you suggest?

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[Fish pixie]

Honestly, if you've been rockin it till now with a high course load & good GPA, one semester at the end w/ low credits probably won't matter. This is esp. true if you volunteer, work or do research more during that semester. Most schools look at the whole picture of what you're doing w/your time & how you do at time management. Better that then if you're burnt out, take a high credit load & don't do as well GPA-wise because of it. Plus, I find volunteering really motivating & it gets me excited to go to vet school & makes me happy.

 

[ADM1220]

If you are paying for it yourself, I say only take what you need. I don't think taking extra classes for the sake of being full time is worth it if you are paying out of pocket. You've done full time til now. Minimize the debt and stress.

 

[Felixor90]

Take as much as you can afford. I couldn't afford to take more than 12-13 credits per semester. I wrote that in the explanation section of my application and so far none of the schools that give weight to course load have been bothered by it because they have all given me interviews. It looks even better if you're filling up some of your non-school time with shadowing, volunteering, and/or working. If you're doing any of that, write it down in the explanation section as well. You should be fine.

 

[allygator13]

I honestly don't know why so many people say that what you learn in undergrad doesn't carry over into vet school... So many of the classes I took in undergrad have SIGNIFICANTLY helped me so far in my first year of vet school. I was so well-prepared for these classes thanks to the ones I took in undergrad, it's practically the same material. Obviously not really physics and math, but all the biology and some chemistry. Just keep that in mind.

 

[LetItSnow]

You're going to find the first year or two of vet school to be a lot more like undergrad classes on steroids than you're thinking you are.

That said, I don't think it matters too much what you do.

 

[Rainheart]

I carried about a 15 credit course load per semester and then my last one dropped it down to 12 just because I could. Granted, I had a year off after not getting into veterinary school the first time around (unrelated to the course load)... If you don't want to take 15 credits and can do it, why not? Sure, course load factors in, but doing well in classes is going to help you out far more.

 

[LivesintheLibrary]

So I know a lot of schools say they take "rigor" into account, but as far as I've seen, none of them define it, or really reward/punish you for it. I think it does say something if you've been taking full course loads every semester and doing well, but I don't think it's a make or break you thing. Plus with AP and dual credit courses becoming more and more popular, more students come in with lots of hours and take lighter loads their last year/semester (or at least where I'm from). I think most schools understand this, and again "rigor" is so vague that what may look like a rigorous semester on paper may be a piece of cake and vice versa. Some school give students who complete all the prerequisites by the time they apply an extra point or two, possibly because that makes things "more rigorous", but I don't know for sure if that's why they do that, it could easily be for some other purpose.

As far as burnout goes, if you can afford to take a lighter course load- do it. Like I said, I can't imagine that rigor is generally used as a make or break factor. If you're feeling mentally fatigued (which I think almost all of us have been there at some point or another), I think taking too many classes could exacerbate that and lead to more fatigue and frustration. Are you going to be applying for 2016 entry? If so I'm in a similar boat to you, I graduated in December and I'm hoping to get into the ℅ 2019, so I've had this spring semester off from school and I've just been working. It's amazing to me the difference it's made and how refreshed I feel. If I'm lucky enough to be accepted for this fall, I know I'll be ready to go back to the studying grind. If that's where you'll be next spring, just push through your last classes in the fall and then in the spring, working will feel like a break. It sounds like you're like me and you like to learn, so by the end of a semester off, you'll go running to the books (it's February and I already have been haha). I hope this helps.

 

[AniSci]

I honestly don't know why so many people say that what you learn in undergrad doesn't carry over into vet school... So many of the classes I took in undergrad have SIGNIFICANTLY helped me so far in my first year of vet school. I was so well-prepared for these classes thanks to the ones I took in undergrad, it's practically the same material. Obviously not really physics and math, but all the biology and some chemistry. Just keep that in mind.

I totally agree and see the importance of biology & chemistry! I even like those subjects! But I think applying information you already know and understand is a lot different than answering homework questions from a chem class...

 

[AniSci]

So I know a lot of schools say they take "rigor" into account, but as far as I've seen, none of them define it, or really reward/punish you for it. I think it does say something if you've been taking full course loads every semester and doing well, but I don't think it's a make or break you thing. Plus with AP and dual credit courses becoming more and more popular, more students come in with lots of hours and take lighter loads their last year/semester (or at least where I'm from). I think most schools understand this, and again "rigor" is so vague that what may look like a rigorous semester on paper may be a piece of cake and vice versa. Some school give students who complete all the prerequisites by the time they apply an extra point or two, possibly because that makes things "more rigorous", but I don't know for sure if that's why they do that, it could easily be for some other purpose.

As far as burnout goes, if you can afford to take a lighter course load- do it. Like I said, I can't imagine that rigor is generally used as a make or break factor. If you're feeling mentally fatigued (which I think almost all of us have been there at some point or another), I think taking too many classes could exacerbate that and lead to more fatigue and frustration. Are you going to be applying for 2016 entry? If so I'm in a similar boat to you, I graduated in December and I'm hoping to get into the ℅ 2019, so I've had this spring semester off from school and I've just been working. It's amazing to me the difference it's made and how refreshed I feel. If I'm lucky enough to be accepted for this fall, I know I'll be ready to go back to the studying grind. If that's where you'll be next spring, just push through your last classes in the fall and then in the spring, working will feel like a break. It sounds like you're like me and you like to learn, so by the end of a semester off, you'll go running to the books (it's February and I already have been haha). I hope this helps.

That's EXACTLY what's going to happen to me! I hope to start applying this summer, and (fingers crossed & prayers said) get into the 2016 cycle. If I graduate from undergrad without failing anything because of burn-out and resulting lack of "fire-trucks" to give anymore (lol!), I'll have an entire, glorious Spring semester to just do whatever I want before vet school hits and then real life starts afterward. I plan on working some, and maybe traveling a little just to get out of my city and really refresh myself.

 

[LivesintheLibrary]

That's EXACTLY what's going to happen to me! I hope to start applying this summer, and (fingers crossed & prayers said) get into the 2016 cycle. If I graduate from undergrad without failing anything because of burn-out and resulting lack of "fire-trucks" to give anymore (lol!), I'll have an entire, glorious Spring semester to just do whatever I want before vet school hits and then real life starts afterward. I plan on working some, and maybe traveling a little just to get out of my city and really refresh myself.

So one thing my mom suggested that at first I thought was cheesy and then realized how awesome of an idea it is, is having a bucket list for that spring (moms are great-and usually right haha). You could even start getting ideas for it now and that will help with the burnout. I hope to go to school IS, but one of my friends has interviews all over the country, and is not going to be in IS after this semester, so she made a bucket list of IS things she wants to do and see before she leaves, so I'll be helping her with that. It's been a great way for us to take our mind off of interview season and really enjoy life since we both took rough course loads in undergrad. That extra semester is especially nice if you plan on applying to multiple OOS schools that conduct interviews. Depending on the school, there may be other things you'll want to find out after the interview (housing, financial aid, etc.) so not being in school gives you the ease of staying an extra day if you need to. Also to alleviate the burnout, if you're already in a town with a vet school, your half price books or hastings probably has vet text books for pretty cheap. So I've been buying some of those to read just so I have a better understanding of some things when I'm shadowing, and because I'm a nerd and I can't not learn for a semester haha.

 

[DVMDream]

But to me, undergrad is a complete waste of my emotional/mental energy and patience. Having to do well on so many difficult classes (that have to be taken in clusters, so the difficulty and time-consumption is amplified) and learn material that I'll never even really "use" per se is so frustrating to me. Not to say that I'll never use any of it, but the important stuff I know I'll remember and carry over into vet school with me.

Vet school is going to be rough for you.

 

[that redhead]

Vet school is going to be rough for you.

Ehh, I feel like all of my classes have been used in some way, and a lot of the first year courses like anatomy and physiology have come back with a vengeance in fourth year.

OP, if you feel burnt out, take a break. Remember that you'll have vet school summers where you can work or do nothing or a combination of the two. I doubt a school is really going to frown upon a last, lighter semester provided you've done well up until now.

 

[Minnerbelle]

You're going to find the first year or two of vet school to be a lot more like undergrad classes on steroids than you're thinking you are.

Seriously... I really don't understand it when pre-vet say that they'll do so much better in vet school because they will care about what they're learning. Trust me, y'all won't be caring about 80% of the crap considered "testable material." The 20% of the stuff you really need in practice will take all your strength and concentration to learn. Then everything else becomes such a nuisance. It might be something you'd be interested in if you had all the time in the world. But when you're stressed out to the max because you feel so stupid and that you just can't see yourself ever becoming a competent clinician in the short amount of time allotted in vet school, you could care less what shape penises and cervices of all the different animals are, etc... Kidney failure, and everything you need to know about it is super important and hard to grasp. The etiology, pathophys, and whatever of dengue fever x 50 other viruses you will never see in your life... wtf. Ain't no one got time for that. But you need to in order to not flunk out.

 

[DVMDream]

Ehh, I feel like all of my classes have been used in some way, and a lot of the first year courses like anatomy and physiology have come back with a vengeance in fourth year.

Read what minnerbelle just posted. Because that's what I'm referring to. Most of what we learn in vet school, isn't going to be relevant in practice. I don't give 2 hoots about rinderpest, but I sure as hell had to learn it, x373627 other examples of things learned in vet school that only needed to be known to pass and we'll never have to know once we graduate.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

But to me, undergrad is a complete waste of my emotional/mental energy and patience. Having to do well on so many difficult classes (that have to be taken in clusters, so the difficulty and time-consumption is amplified) and learn material that I'll never even really "use" per se is so frustrating to me. Not to say that I'll never use any of it, but the important stuff I know I'll remember and carry over into vet school with me.

I get where you're coming from (especially for your gen-eds). However, like mentioned, your pre-reqs are pre-reqs for a reason. They lay the foundation you need to be successful in veterinary school. It is certainly not a waste of your time if these classes are what you need to get a seat in a school. Try not to think of these classes as chores.

Do you actually not care, or are you just saying that? I'm pretty sure all of us have walked into a test shouting "I DON'T EVEN CARE ANYMORE!!!!" even though we secretly do. However, if you really aren't caring about the material at this point, are you sure you actually enjoy learning it? Something to think about. What subjects are causing you the most problems?

Also: I took 10 credits one semester, and no school has brought it up to me. With that being said, I do still kinda regret it.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Okay, so I know this question has been asked already and if I had found what I was looking for with those questions, I wouldn't be asking mine.

So please don't post links or smart-aleck responses.

I'm a senior animal science major with a good GPA, etc., and I've got a summer of biochem (gag) and one last Fall semester to finish up (PHYS 2, microbiology, and a 1-credit animal ethics course) before I can call myself done and graduated.

But I'm burned out. So burned out. Like if it weren't my last "real" semester right now, I might just quit. My hatred for all things undergrad and pre-req has slowly increased since junior year and I'm at my tipping point. I want to go to vet school, I want to be a veterinarian, and I'm 100% willing to do all that vet school throws at me.

But to me, undergrad is a complete waste of my emotional/mental energy and patience. Having to do well on so many difficult classes (that have to be taken in clusters, so the difficulty and time-consumption is amplified) and learn material that I'll never even really "use" per se is so frustrating to me. Not to say that I'll never use any of it, but the important stuff I know I'll remember and carry over into vet school with me.

A LARGE portion of what you learn IN VET SCHOOL is not stuff you will use in day to day practice or in some cases even at all...

Seriously... I really don't understand it when pre-vet say that they'll do so much better in vet school because they will care about what they're learning. Trust me, y'all won't be caring about 80% of the crap considered "testable material." The 20% of the stuff you really need in practice will take all your strength and concentration to learn. Then everything else becomes such a nuisance. It might be something you'd be interested in if you had all the time in the world. But when you're stressed out to the max because you feel so stupid and that you just can't see yourself ever becoming a competent clinician in the short amount of time allotted in vet school, you could care less what shape penises and cervices of all the different animals are, etc... Kidney failure, and everything you need to know about it is super important and hard to grasp. The etiology, pathophys, and whatever of dengue fever x 50 other viruses you will never see in your life... wtf. Ain't no one got time for that. But you need to in order to not flunk out.

Yep.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Seriously... I really don't understand it when pre-vet say that they'll do so much better in vet school because they will care about what they're learning. Trust me, y'all won't be caring about 80% of the crap considered "testable material." The 20% of the stuff you really need in practice will take all your strength and concentration to learn. Then everything else becomes such a nuisance. It might be something you'd be interested in if you had all the time in the world. But when you're stressed out to the max because you feel so stupid and that you just can't see yourself ever becoming a competent clinician in the short amount of time allotted in vet school, you could care less what shape penises and cervices of all the different animals are, etc... Kidney failure, and everything you need to know about it is super important and hard to grasp. The etiology, pathophys, and whatever of dengue fever x 50 other viruses you will never see in your life... wtf. Ain't no one got time for that. But you need to in order to not flunk out.

Is it true that most practicing vets no longer recall the various biochemical processes that causes certain things to fail/work/whatever (example: How exactly vitamin K plays a role in blood clotting/how exactly rat poison blocks vitamin K)? I had a vet tell me once that she knows the symptoms of rat poison ingestion, but couldn't tell me how exactly the stuff works anymore for the life of her and that it didn't matter that she knew or not. And that most vets don't know the ins and outs of every detail of the animals anymore, but they know what to prescribe for what, what do do and when.

I completely get no longer needing the obviously useless (using that term loosely there...) stuff we'll get thrown at us, but how do you decide what parts are useful?

 

[DVMDream]

Is it true that most practicing vets no longer recall the various biochemical processes that causes certain things to fail/work/whatever (example: How exactly vitamin K plays a role in blood clotting/how exactly rat poison blocks vitamin K)? I had a vet tell me once that she knows the symptoms of rat poison ingestion, but couldn't tell me how exactly the stuff works anymore for the life of her and that it didn't matter that she knew or not. And that most vets don't know the ins and outs of every detail of the animals anymore, but they know what to prescribe for what, what do do and when.

I completely get no longer needing the obviously useless (using that term loosely there...) stuff we'll get thrown at us, but how do you decide what parts are useful?

My theory through vet school is that if you know normal physiology well, you can figure out pathology. It has worked for me. Even on exams, I will sit there and read a question about a disease and think.. I'm not sure, but I know the normal physiology so I can work through what will happen if you don't have enough of x hormone, or there is a mitral insufficiency, or the kidney is failing, or the dog has a lesion in the brainstem...

I mean, I am sure some vets still remember that rat poison blocks vitamin K, which is needed for factors II, IV, IX and X. I am sure there are some vets out there that could tell you EXACTLY where along the pathway that rat poison acts (I couldn't tell you right now and we just learned it this past week), but does it REALLY matter? If you have a dog that is dying from rat poison, does it matter if the vet can tell you that the rat poison acts at blah, blah point or is it more important that vet knows how to recognize the symptoms of rat poisoning and how to stabilize and treat the patient?

There are also going to be common things that you see in practice that you will just remember because you see them all the time... but for the less common things, there are books and VIN for a reason. No vet can know everything and remember everything. As long as you can recognize you aren't a superhuman and can recognize when you don't know and when you need to do some research to find an answer, you should be ok.

 

[Jamr0ckin]

Just as an aside for course load: UTK gives quality points for semester load. You get none if you have 15 hrs or less per semester. But you get 1 for 16, 2 for 17, and 3 for 18. When you are borderline on grades or GRE, even a few points can bump you up for an interview invite. I had lower GPA but high course load (only 2 semesters did I take less than 18 - my first and one random one where I couldn't make something fit) so I got a few extra points that really helped me.

You should be able to handle a high course load with classes that are hard AND not interesting. Trust me, I thought I'd love every class because I love veterinary medicine - not so much.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Is it true that most practicing vets no longer recall the various biochemical processes that causes certain things to fail/work/whatever (example: How exactly vitamin K plays a role in blood clotting/how exactly rat poison blocks vitamin K)? I had a vet tell me once that she knows the symptoms of rat poison ingestion, but couldn't tell me how exactly the stuff works anymore for the life of her and that it didn't matter that she knew or not. And that most vets don't know the ins and outs of every detail of the animals anymore, but they know what to prescribe for what, what do do and when.

I completely get no longer needing the obviously useless (using that term loosely there...) stuff we'll get thrown at us, but how do you decide what parts are useful?

If you use it, you retain it. If you don't you lose it... It's as simple as that.

If you're someone who looks things up often for your cases and reinforces pathophysiology knowledge as you see your cases, then your knowledge base gets bigger not smaller. You start developing a strong understanding if the things you see often. But there is no way you're going to retain everything you learned.

I don't think I even cared to learn exactly what vit k does on a molecular level in vet school. I just knew that factors II, VII, IX and X were vitamin k dependent, and that factor VII is the first to be exhausted, which is why monitoring PT is more important than monitoring PTT. Why do i still remember that? Well it hasn't been that long since I learned it, but it's relevant in practice. I'm sure over the years the exact factors might get fuzzy... but vitamin K and PT won't be lost so long as I continue to see these cases.

I mean for things like that, who cares what the exact mechanism is? You need vitamin k for some clotting factors, so rodenticide that antagonizes vit k will cause bleeding. The antidote is vit k. That's the extent of what you need to know. And that's the extent that you need to explain to owners

It is sooo much more important to know how to monitor for possible ingestion, dose and duration of vit k, and follow-up testing post-treatment. And in the case where the animal is actively hemorrhaging to death, how to safely administer the vit k. This is how you save that pet's life. Knowing the irrelevant minutia doesn't really do much for you.

How do you know what's useful? Well you know off the bat that all the crap about the species you will never work with and stuff you never see where you will practice is not useful. But otherwise, you don't while you're in the thick of it. That's why everyone always chuckles at the first years who act like they will go to eternal hell if they don't know the insertion of the gamelli muscle... You kinda realize in clinics how much you wished you had paid attention to this/that, and how useless most of the material was. Rinse and repeat once you're out in practice outside the ivory tower.

 

[DVMDream]

gamelli muscle...

I had to look this up... I can't remember anatomy to save my life.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Well.

I'm obviously biased given my field, because it is all about the minutiae. But I think things are getting confused here. The minutiae is not "useless" and it raises my hackles a wee bit to hear it being referred to as such. Just because YOU do not use it in your clinic does not make it useless information that should not be conveyed in vet school. I mean hell, surgery was "useless minutiae" to me but I don't go around telling people it is. I'm not referring to any one person specifically on this thread, but I hear bits and pieces of it all over the place.

Is it true that most practicing vets no longer recall the various biochemical processes that causes certain things to fail/work/whatever (example: How exactly vitamin K plays a role in blood clotting/how exactly rat poison blocks vitamin K)? I had a vet tell me once that she knows the symptoms of rat poison ingestion, but couldn't tell me how exactly the stuff works anymore for the life of her and that it didn't matter that she knew or not. And that most vets don't know the ins and outs of every detail of the animals anymore, but they know what to prescribe for what, what do do and when.

We are doctors. Not just care providers. You do NOT want to be that vet who, when the client asks you the particulars of why or how a disease happens, you can't answer. Seriously. It's embarrassing. I have taught some fourth years that I just wanted to slam my head against the desk because they could rattle off every drug to give for whatever disease, they could throw out all the fancy acronyms that the cardio people or neuro people or whoever taught them, but they could not explain to me why or how this disease did what it did or how the drug or treatment they suggest truly worked. Essentially glorified technicians who knew how to read Plumbs. That is not the status that we pay extraordinary amounts of money and undergo 4 years of hellish stress to acheive.

That is why yes, the "useless minutiae" IS important in vet school. Are you going to remember all of it? Of course not. Are you going to use all of it? Hell no. That's what I referred to in my previous post. But this attitude (again, I'm not attacking anyone here in particular...I see some of it in everyone) of thinking you only have to know how to treat something is a dangerous one and, frankly, undermines our education.

Tl;dr don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[DVMDream]

Well.

I'm obviously biased given my field, because it is all about the minutiae. But I think things are getting confused here. The minutiae is not "useless" and it raises my hackles a wee bit to hear it being referred to as such. Just because YOU do not use it in your clinic does not make it useless information that should not be conveyed in vet school. I mean hell, surgery was "useless minutiae" to me but I don't go around telling people it is. I'm not referring to any one person specifically on this thread, but I hear bits and pieces of it all over the place.



We are doctors. Not just care providers. You do NOT want to be that vet who, when the client asks you the particulars of why or how a disease happens, you can't answer. Seriously. It's embarrassing. I have taught some fourth years that I just wanted to slam my head against the desk because they could rattle off every drug to give for whatever disease, they could throw out all the fancy acronyms that the cardio people or neuro people or whoever taught them, but they could not explain to me why or how this disease did what it did or how the drug or treatment they suggest truly worked. Essentially glorified technicians who knew how to read Plumbs. That is not the status that we pay extraordinary amounts of money and undergo 4 years of hellish stress to acheive.

That is why yes, the "useless minutiae" IS important in vet school. Are you going to remember all of it? Of course not. Are you going to use all of it? Hell no. That's what I referred to in my previous post. But this attitude (again, I'm not attacking anyone here in particular...I see some of it in everyone) of thinking you only have to know how to treat something is a dangerous one and, frankly, undermines our education.

Tl;dr don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the "useless minutiae" should not be taught in vet school, just that a good deal of what we are taught, in reality for the vast majority of vet students, will be... well... useless... We could also get into other details of vet school that I just don't give a damn about simply because I am small animal oriented, but that stuff has to be taught... for me, it is "useless" information that I will need to know up until I graduate and then I can purge it. I don't give it any less attention though, as a matter of fact my highest grade in vet school thus far has been in equine medicine..

I am also not suggesting you ONLY have to know how to treat something, that is absurd. You also need to know how to diagnose it, which means you need to know the physiology and pathophysiology behind it. Which was my point prior. I mean, you are going to look like an idiot if you can't explain Cushing's disease to an owner, but I really don't think anyone was making that point, I know I wasn't.

Is it really important to know that the anticoagulant in rodenticide blocks epoxide reductase which reduces Vitamin K1? Maybe to someone studying it in a lab, but in a clinical setting not so much.

As far as clients wanting to know how things work, very few want that kind of minutia.. they will expect that you can explain why your dog is bleeding and how you are going to treat the dog and why that is the chosen treatment. I worked with a vet that would give every damn detail to an owner and the looks on those clients' faces was very telling... they had no idea what he was saying. I even had a few that once he left the exam room turn to me and say, "I don't understand a damn word of what he just told us." You can make a client get bogged down in too much info.

I agree that pathophysiology is important as you need to know it to recognize clinical signs, but there is a lot of minutia we are taught, that honestly is not important and can be a struggle to work through and learn. I'm not suggesting they don't teach it, but that once you are out in practice, you are going to confuse the crap out of your clients if you start spewing out all the minutia you learned in vet school.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the "useless minutiae" should not be taught in vet school, just that a good deal of what we are taught, in reality for the vast majority of vet students, will be... well... useless... We could also get into other details of vet school that I just don't give a damn about simply because I am small animal oriented, but that stuff has to be taught... for me, it is "useless" information that I will need to know up until I graduate and then I can purge it. I don't give it any less attention though, as a matter of fact my highest grade in vet school thus far has been in equine medicine..

I am also not suggesting you ONLY have to know how to treat something, that is absurd. You also need to know how to diagnose it, which means you need to know the physiology and pathophysiology behind it. Which was my point prior. I mean, you are going to look like an idiot if you can't explain Cushing's disease to an owner, but I really don't think anyone was making that point, I know I wasn't.

Is it really important to know that the anticoagulant in rodenticide blocks epoxide reductase which reduces Vitamin K1? Maybe to someone studying it in a lab, but in a clinical setting not so much.

As far as clients wanting to know how things work, very few want that kind of minutia.. they will expect that you can explain why your dog is bleeding and how you are going to treat the dog and why that is the chosen treatment. I worked with a vet that would give every damn detail to an owner and the looks on those clients' faces was very telling... they had no idea what he was saying. I even had a few that once he left the exam room turn to me and say, "I don't understand a damn word of what he just told us." You can make a client get bogged down in too much info.

I agree that pathophysiology is important as you need to know it to recognize clinical signs, but there is a lot of minutia we are taught, that honestly is not important and can be a struggle to work through and learn. I'm not suggesting they don't teach it, but that once you are out in practice, you are going to confuse the crap out of your clients if you start spewing out all the minutia you learned in vet school.

I didn't say you were suggesting it at all, or that anyone specifically was- I was referring to that kind of attitude in general which I picked up on a few times while reading though here. I.e. the temptation to go down that path due to frustration and volume, which can lead to ineffective doctors if we hyperfocus only on what we determine to be immediately helpful.

As for the rest, that relies on the veterinarians ability to effectively communicate, not the worth or lack of worth of the details of disease processes. You can absolutely explain physiology at a "common man" level - in fact, it is something that all vets should be able to do anyway.

 

[DVMDream]

I didn't say you were suggesting it at all, or that anyone specifically was- I was referring to that kind of attitude in general which I picked up on a few times while reading though here. I.e. the temptation to go down that path due to frustration and volume, which can lead to ineffective doctors if we hyperfocus only on what we determine to be immediately helpful.

As for the rest, that relies on the veterinarians ability to effectively communicate, not the worth or lack of worth of the details of disease processes. You can absolutely explain physiology at a "common man" level - in fact, it is something that all vets should be able to do anyway.

Of course, but what I am saying is certain details aren't needed when discussing with clients... like the epoxide reductase above. I am saying explain the disease in common man terms, but that often means leaving out minute details...

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Of course, but what I am saying is certain details aren't needed when discussing with clients... like the epoxide reductase above. I am saying explain the disease in common man terms, but that often means leaving out minute details...

I think we're talking about different "levels" of details, and you're talking current attitude and I'm talking potential future results of said attitude.

My argument is that it's easy to moan about all the details and how useless they are, and then it builds from that into an attitude of "well, I'm just going to learn what it immediately applicable" which is definitely something I have seen students do.

I do agree with you, I think we are just on slightly different wavelengths

 

[cowgirla]

Of course, but what I am saying is certain details aren't needed when discussing with clients... like the epoxide reductase above. I am saying explain the disease in common man terms, but that often means leaving out minute details...

Remember that not every client is at common man level. I have a bunch of clients that are pharmacists, doctors, microbiologists, NIH researchers, etc and they want to talk nitty gritty details and understand. Even if you don't use the info all the time it's still important to know (or know where to quickly look it up before going back into the room!)

 

[LetItSnow]

Well.

I think that the issue of what's "worth remembering" is multifactorial and needs to include discussion about things down the road like limited licensure and whatnot. But for the purposes of this conversation....

@WhtsThFrequency , there's a difference between what's necessary to learn in vet school and what's interesting to learn. And, obviously, that varies from person to person. And it's overlapping Venn circles. Just because something is necessarily taught and understood doesn't make it interesting.

And that's where MY comments were coming from. The OP said:

But to me, undergrad is a complete waste of my emotional/mental energy and patience. Having to do well on so many difficult classes (that have to be taken in clusters, so the difficulty and time-consumption is amplified) and learn material that I'll never even really "use" per se is so frustrating to me.

There is a LOT of material like that in vet school. A whole lot. I have absolutely no interest in doctoring swine; but I had to get through a swine core course like everyone else. I had zero excitement for my necropsy rotation; but it's an important rotation and I did what I could to get what I could out of it.

My point in responding to the OP was to say that hey, if you think getting into vet school suddenly means every class is super intensely interesting and exciting because wow, it's finally focused on veterinary medicine 'n doctoring 'n **** ..... that's not vet school. There are a lot of times vet school is a friggin' slog through the mud because what you're learning is boring (to you), or uninteresting (to you), or not terribly applicable (to you). There are a lot of times the material is intellectually exactly as stimulating (or not) as undergrad classes.

Basically: if you find undergrad to be so frustrating, you'd better find a way to manage that frustration and set realistic expectations for vet school, but it can be similarly frustrating. Especially those first few years.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Well.

I think that the issue of what's "worth remembering" is multifactorial and needs to include discussion about things down the road like limited licensure and whatnot. But for the purposes of this conversation....

@WhtsThFrequency , there's a difference between what's necessary to learn in vet school and what's interesting to learn. And, obviously, that varies from person to person. And it's overlapping Venn circles. Just because something is necessarily taught and understood doesn't make it interesting.
.

I'm not talking about worthwhile versus interesting versus necessary either. I'm well aware that a lot of professors and the like will go off on their own tangents or spend a lot of time talking about certain facets of medicine that THEY find interesting which may not be applicable to the majority of the student body (especially researchers forced to teach) - this is not what I am advocating or even referring to.

I'm not even just talking about content itself. I'm talking about attitude in approaching said content, and how that affects the quality of learning. I.e. assuming that the details you are learning in class do not apply to you and you will never use them. Not only because you (the generic "you") are a student and your understanding of what is necessary is limited anyway, but because it fostered a closed-off, blinkered approach to education, which can lead to DVMs coming out with a experience and knowledge more akin to a glorified technician. Trust me, I've seen it.

 

[DVMDream]

Remember that not every client is at common man level. I have a bunch of clients that are pharmacists, doctors, microbiologists, NIH researchers, etc and they want to talk nitty gritty details and understand. Even if you don't use the info all the time it's still important to know (or know where to quickly look it up before going back into the room!)

I'm well aware of this. That's why I stated very few clients will want or be asking for nitty gritty details. Yes, you'll have some that understand those details and want them but many, many more won't.

 

[DVMDream]

I'm not even just talking about content itself. I'm talking about attitude in approaching said content, and how that affects the quality of learning. I.e. assuming that the details you are learning in class do not apply to you and you will never use them. Not only because you (the generic "you") are a student and your understanding of what is necessary is limited anyway, but because it fostered a closed-off, blinkered approach to education, which can lead to DVMs coming out with a experience and knowledge more akin to a glorified technician. Trust me, I've seen it.

I get what your saying, but nowhere did I tell anyone to assume something isn't needed. Nowhere did I suggest not learning minutia. What I'm (and I assume LIS) simply saying is that the OP is frustrated because things seem irrelevant in undergrad, well it's going to happen again. There's going to be a LOT of things that seem or are (for you) irrelevant, but you're going to have to get over it and learn it anyway. No one has suggested ignoring it. And I get attitude can play a role in things, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find one vet student that hasn't been frustrated with the overload of info at some point. And to say that I'm annoyed about sitting through swine med is going to make me less good of a small animal clinician is a bit exaggerated. I hated equine med, it's my highest grade ever, clearly I learned the info fine even though I wasn't really interested.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I get what your saying, but nowhere did I tell anyone to assume something isn't needed. Nowhere did I suggest not learning minutia. What I'm (and I assume LIS) simply saying is that the OP is frustrated because things seem irrelevant in undergrad, well it's going to happen again. There's going to be a LOT of things that seem or are (for you) irrelevant, but you're going to have to get over it and learn it anyway. No one has suggested ignoring it. And I get attitude can play a role in things, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find one vet student that hasn't been frustrated with the overload of info at some point. And to say that I'm annoyed about sitting through med is going to make me less good of a small animal clinician is a bit exaggerated. I hated equine med, it's my highest grade ever, clearly I learned the info fine even though I wasn't really interested.

Dude. It's not about you. Nowhere did I say anthing about you. Nowhere did I say anyone on this thread specifically. In fact I made it very clear I was NOT referring to anyone specifically.

Forget it.

I need chocolate.

And sleep.

 

[WelshCob]

I think we're talking about different "levels" of details, and you're talking current attitude and I'm talking potential future results of said attitude.

My argument is that it's easy to moan about all the details and how useless they are, and then it builds from that into an attitude of "well, I'm just going to learn what it immediately applicable" which is definitely something I have seen students do.

I do agree with you, I think we are just on slightly different wavelengths

You're a pathologist right? The pathologists, and the residents and interns in the pathology department are just incredible they know so MUCH! I do not know how you all retain it. Nor do I know how you have the ability for find the smallest defects. We have gross pathology labs as part of our systemic and general pathology labs and I'm always in awe.

 

[WelshCob]

Okay, so I know this question has been asked already and if I had found what I was looking for with those questions, I wouldn't be asking mine.

So please don't post links or smart-aleck responses.

I'm a senior animal science major with a good GPA, etc., and I've got a summer of biochem (gag) and one last Fall semester to finish up (PHYS 2, microbiology, and a 1-credit animal ethics course) before I can call myself done and graduated.

But I'm burned out. So burned out. Like if it weren't my last "real" semester right now, I might just quit. My hatred for all things undergrad and pre-req has slowly increased since junior year and I'm at my tipping point. I want to go to vet school, I want to be a veterinarian, and I'm 100% willing to do all that vet school throws at me.

But to me, undergrad is a complete waste of my emotional/mental energy and patience. Having to do well on so many difficult classes (that have to be taken in clusters, so the difficulty and time-consumption is amplified) and learn material that I'll never even really "use" per se is so frustrating to me. Not to say that I'll never use any of it, but the important stuff I know I'll remember and carry over into vet school with me.

Anyway.
About next semester.
Should I bother going full-time?? How awful will it look on a vet school application? Do they actually look at your course load and are like "No, you can't handle us."
I know scholarship-wise, full time is necessary. But my school's tuition isn't too bad, and besides, after 4 years, by year five most of my scholarship money has run out by now. So I'll be paying a lot of it myself anyway...
I've been full time (averaging about 14-15 hours a semester) my entire college career and doing well. And I KNOW vet school course loads are WAY more, but again...I'm willing to handle that. I can handle it. It's things I'm really passionate & motivated about--where there's a will, there's a way.
But right now I really just want to do well (better than I've been doing since the burn out really hit) to make sure my GPA stays up, and start to rebuild myself emotionally and mentally. I also want to find time to do more volunteer work and maybe find a clinic to work at to get more of a variety of experience while I'm waiting to get through the application process.

So what would you suggest?

To the original poster if you want to take a full load take some classes that are completely different then anything you've taken before. My last semester of undergrad I took a theater appreciation class, I loved it and artsy type stuff if not typically my thing. Or take an interesting animal science class in a species you don't have familiarity with. I sprinkled dairy science classes throughout my studies because I had no education on the subject but found it rewarding to learn something new. Explore your school there are a lot more then just science classes out there. Oh and another one I took a physical geography class that almost turned my world upside down I was so fascinated I debated on changing my major.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

You're a pathologist right? The pathologists, and the residents and interns in the pathology department are just incredible they know so MUCH! I do not know how you all retain it. Nor do I know how you have the ability for find the smallest defects. We have gross pathology labs as part of our systemic and general pathology labs and I'm always in awe.

We're part Cylon.

 

[LetItSnow]

We're part Cylon.

Pathologists. Hmph. I've been waiting on a necropsy report for more than a month. Would you get on it?

 

[battie]

As soon as I read this...

So please don't post links or smart-aleck responses.

But to me, undergrad is a complete waste of my emotional/mental energy and patience. Having to do well on so many difficult classes (that have to be taken in clusters, so the difficulty and time-consumption is amplified) and learn material that I'll never even really "use" per se is so frustrating to me. Not to say that I'll never use any of it, but the important stuff I know I'll remember and carry over into vet school with me.
And I KNOW vet school course loads are WAY more, but again...I'm willing to handle that. I can handle it. It's things I'm really passionate & motivated about--where there's a will, there's a way.

I was completely expecting all of this

I honestly don't know why so many people say that what you learn in undergrad doesn't carry over into vet school... So many of the classes I took in undergrad have SIGNIFICANTLY helped me so far in my first year of vet school. I was so well-prepared for these classes thanks to the ones I took in undergrad, it's practically the same material. Obviously not really physics and math, but all the biology and some chemistry. Just keep that in mind.

Vet school is going to be rough for you.

Seriously... I really don't understand it when pre-vet say that they'll do so much better in vet school because they will care about what they're learning. Trust me, y'all won't be caring about 80% of the crap considered "testable material." The 20% of the stuff you really need in practice will take all your strength and concentration to learn. Then everything else becomes such a nuisance. It might be something you'd be interested in if you had all the time in the world. But when you're stressed out to the max because you feel so stupid and that you just can't see yourself ever becoming a competent clinician in the short amount of time allotted in vet school, you could care less what shape penises and cervices of all the different animals are, etc... Kidney failure, and everything you need to know about it is super important and hard to grasp. The etiology, pathophys, and whatever of dengue fever x 50 other viruses you will never see in your life... wtf. Ain't no one got time for that. But you need to in order to not flunk out.

A LARGE portion of what you learn IN VET SCHOOL is not stuff you will use in day to day practice or in some cases even at all..

Thank you all for not disappointing me.