Grade Trends in Medical School

[DODundee]

Long time lurker looking for advice,
How are grade trends seen when applying to residencies down the road. I'm interested in some of the more competitive specialities at the moment and was wondering how badly a low class rank and pre-clinical GPA are going to affect me.

When I first entered med. school my study skills were severely lacking, this coupled with a long-term relationship going south meant that I was barely able to pass a few classes and did below average in others - as a result I ended up with a C in Anatomy and a 2.6 GPA, as the year went on I turned things around and have gotten my GPA up to a 3.2. Unfortunately I'm still ranked in the bottom half of the class.

I am currently an MS-1 at one of the "original" DO schools.

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[hallowmann]

You're fine. Stay out of the bottom quartile, don't fail anything, and kill boards. Thats all that matters at this point. Your first semester performance will have little to no effect on your residency prospects.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

I love how frequently we all just toss around the phrase "just kill the boards". Like thats a decision people get to make.

 

[hallowmann]

I love how frequently we all just toss around the phrase "just kill the boards". Like thats a decision people get to make.

I guess it depends. If you study for boards all through 2nd year, chances are you get pretty close to killing it. If you don't, you should hope you're a good test taker and can handle reviewing everything a few times in the 4 wks or so of dedicated study.

If we're talking 250+/650+, then yeah, you're probably right, even with a year of studying it would be tough and depend on skill/luck.

Also, to be clear, I was saying the statement more as motivation for an MS1, than claiming some sort of numerical target. They (and anyone) should aim high to motivate them to get their best score (you might feel differently). Also, killing the boards is a subjective statement. For example to someone going for FM it might mean 230.

Anyway, feel free to nitpick semantics any way you want.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

Im not nitpicking semantics here. Its just bad advice. Less than half of students can score above a 230. Thats not nitpicking, thats how the grading scale works. For some reason though on SDN our advice to 100% of students is "just be in the top 30%" and we all ignore how math is a thing.


Dont mean to harp on you in particular hallowman, I mean in general we all suck at this.

 

[kenjixshadow]

x

 

[IslandStyle808]

Im not nitpicking semantics here. Its just bad advice. Less than half of students can score above a 230. Thats not nitpicking, thats how the grading scale works. For some reason though on SDN our advice to 100% of students is "just be in the top 30%" and we all ignore how math is a thing.


Dont mean to harp on you in particular hallowman, I mean in general we all suck at this.

But isn't the USMLE different from the COMLEX by the fact they don't adjust the scaling every so often? Thus the reason USMLE average scores have been creeping up, while COMLEX score have relatively stayed the same. Not sure what you mean here?

 

[JimmyB123]

Im not nitpicking semantics here. Its just bad advice. Less than half of students can score above a 230. Thats not nitpicking, thats how the grading scale works. For some reason though on SDN our advice to 100% of students is "just be in the top 30%" and we all ignore how math is a thing.


Dont mean to harp on you in particular hallowman, I mean in general we all suck at this.

I remember cliquesh posting somewhere that in his DO class, only 4 people scored above a 240.

 

[kenjixshadow]

I remember cliquesh posting somewhere that in his DO class, only 4 people scored above a 240.

Or you can use RVU data on page 18. https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...urriculum-reorganization_s-kruse.pdf?sfvrsn=0

COMLEX 1 mean = 550 (n=146). USMLE 1 mean = 219 (n=129) for class of 2015. Sure it's harder to get 230+ but it doesn't mean it's not doable.

 

[hallowmann]

I still don't see a problem with suggesting to people to get above the average. It's not an impossible feat, just not possible for everyone, but everyone isn't on here. Everyone isn't concerned that they only have a 2.9 in med school, at least 1/3 of the people in med school are content just passing. The people who tend to be concerned are those willing to work harder to be in that upper 50%.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the value in telling someone over a year out from boards to aim for 210/450. Would you tell a premed to aim for a 22, because that's the minimum needed to maybe get into med school? I'll continue telling people to aim for killing the boards regardless of how "bad at math" it makes me seem.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

you're right, nevermind. Everyone just kill the boards!

 

[kenjixshadow]

I'll continue telling people to aim for killing the boards.

You should because that's the right attitude. I wrote a mean version of your post earlier, but I didn't want to leave a wrong impression to ppl so I deleted it. One should aim for 230+ on the UMSLE or don't even take it in the first place. (Not saying everyone will get 230+). We're competing with the MD counterpart for competitive specialties, either be on bar with them or see yourself rejected.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

You should because that's the right attitude. I wrote a mean version of your post earlier, but I didn't want to leave a wrong impression to ppl so I deleted it. One should aim for 230+ on the UMSLE or don't even take it in the first place. (Not saying everyone will get 230+). We're competing with the MD counterpart for competitive specialties, either be on bar with them or see yourself rejected.

There it is. The golden advice. Be in the top 40%.

Hey everyone, just be in the top 40%

 

[kenjixshadow]

There it is. The golden advice. Be in the top 40%.

Hey everyone, just be in the top 40%

I'm afraid you're mistaken. I said aim to do well and there is nothing wrong with that goal. You can be pessimistic all you want. Nobody likes that attitude. If you don't like it, ignore it. I'm not saying that if you aren't in the top rank nor able to do well on the board, you would make a terrible doctor. We're in medical schools and there are competitions. If you don't give your best, you'll fall behind. That's all.

 

[dfib slim]

But isn't the USMLE different from the COMLEX by the fact they don't adjust the scaling every so often? Thus the reason USMLE average scores have been creeping up, while COMLEX score have relatively stayed the same. Not sure what you mean here?

I'm guessing they will adjust the USMLE mean now that the new format went into effect last week.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I'm guessing they will adjust the USMLE mean now that the new format went into effect last week.

So I am guessing the test will be harder then?

 

[dfib slim]

So I am guessing the test will be harder then?

Maybe for the people scoring in the lower end on the practice materials. Won't know for sure until the new batch of scores get released in July. Hopefully the online NBMEs will still be accurate predictors.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

I'm afraid you're mistaken. I said aim to do well and there is nothing wrong with that goal. You can be pessimistic all you want. Nobody likes that attitude. If you don't like it, ignore it. I'm not saying that if you aren't in the top rank nor able to do well on the board, you would make a terrible doctor. We're in medical schools and there are competitions. If you don't give your best, you'll fall behind. That's all.

Using numbers isnt being negative. Its actually just a fact. Nobody takes the boards aiming for a low score. The vast majority of students score average or below average


That is why your advice is the definition of bullshiit. You can call me whatever version of negative you want, but I speak in facts. While you cumbaya and hold hands for everyone to score 290s, the real world keeps on existing where telling someone to "kill the boards" doesnt translate into someone in the bottom half of the class "killing the boards"

Nobody aims for below average or average, but being as thats where probably 99% of below average students will end up, maybe lets give real advice.

Nobody....and i mean literally nobody, is going to score a 230 just because someone on SDN told them to.

 

[PIacebo]

I am probably in the bottom quartile of my class, not sure after this semester as we end finals soon, but if I do well on boards will that offset my class rank?

 

[dfib slim]

Sure but the majority of people who do well on boards did well in classes.

If your rank is low because you aren't grasping the material then you need to change up your study habits or get help from a tutor.

You need to put in the work to really understand the material during the 2 years otherwise you'll have a rude awakening at the start of dedicated.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

I am probably in the bottom quartile of my class, not sure after this semester as we end finals soon, but if I do well on boards will that offset my class rank?

Yes, but just saying it wont make it happen. If you want to earn an above average score, you need to not only work harder than 60% of your classmates, you need to make up for the fact that you are already starting from behind.

Dont forget that the average score on that test is made up from all the average medical students studying the average amount. You are starting from the position of a below average medical student. You will need to study a very above average amount.

I wouldnt count on being the snowflake here. Look for research, meet with advisors, start volunteering etc

 

[Goro]

Look, you're not a pre-med anymore, so chill. Preclinical GPA is really low on the totem pole for PDs. Ace Step I and II, and that will get attention.

One of my all time worst students ended up in Anesthesiology. Right now he's probably killing patients in Seattle.

Long time lurker looking for advice,
How are grade trends seen when applying to residencies down the road. I'm interested in some of the more competitive specialities at the moment and was wondering how badly a low class rank and pre-clinical GPA are going to affect me.

When I first entered med. school my study skills were severely lacking, this coupled with a long-term relationship going south meant that I was barely able to pass a few classes and did below average in others - as a result I ended up with a C in Anatomy and a 2.6 GPA, as the year went on I turned things around and have gotten my GPA up to a 3.2. Unfortunately I'm still ranked in the bottom half of the class.

I am currently an MS-1 at one of the "original" DO schools.

 

[kenjixshadow]

Using numbers isnt being negative. Its actually just a fact. Nobody takes the boards aiming for a low score. The vast majority of students score average or below average

That is why your advice is the definition of bullshiit. You can call me whatever version of negative you want, but I speak in facts.

Nobody....and i mean literally nobody, is going to score a 230 just because someone on SDN told them to.

It sounds like you did poorly piss on the board and now you're taking out the frustration on here. The average on UMSLE is 230, meaning there are ppl who scored higher, 230, or lower. Nobody is saying you will just score 230+ because of SDN. Ppl are advising to do so. You don't know the difference because of your "bullshiit" reading comprehension and is consequently the causation in aforementioned board result.

Nobody aims for below average or average, but being as thats where probably 99% of below average students will end up, maybe lets give real advice.

Need source for this. You're talking about fact yet you're putting out exaggerated number without evidence.

Also, this is how your real advice sounds like, "You won't score above 230 because you're an idiot in bottom of class. Nope, forget specialty, primary care is your only option. In fact, don't even try, you won't do well even if you try."

Thank you SDN for the ignore function. I wouldn't want to hear what this idiot has to say again.

 

[NontradCA]

Nobody aims for below average or average, but being as thats where probably 99% of below average students will end up, maybe lets give real advice.

This sounds like a load of crap. I think people who are wanting a competitive specialty are going to put in more time than someone that isn't. I'm just a first year, but I believe that any individual student is capable of being at the top of the class. It's just a matter of them wanting it bad enough. We can agree to disagree, because I'm sure you don't have the numbers to back up your claims.

 

[JimmyB123]

This sounds like a load of crap. I think people who are wanting a competitive specialty are going to put in more time than someone that isn't. I'm just a first year, but I believe that any individual student is capable of being at the top of the class. It's just a matter of them wanting it bad enough. We can agree to disagree, because I'm sure you don't have the numbers to back up your claims.

What exactly does it take to be at the top of your class? I don't mean like the extreme top...but like top 15-20%? Do you forego all social events and study 24/7?

 

[NontradCA]

What exactly does it take to be at the top of your class? I don't mean like the extreme top...but like top 15-20%? Do you forego all social events and study 24/7?

Me personally, no. It seems that other people who do well maybe put in 8 hours a day? That's not unreasonable, if you treat school like a job. It's medicine, and should be taken seriously as people will rely on you in the future. You will find time to do the things you want to do no matter what. Obviously, the amount of time studying varies from person to person. YMMV. The point is that it's attainable, IMO, by any individual making it into med school.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

It sounds like you did poorly piss on the board and now you're taking out the frustration on here. The average on UMSLE is 230, meaning there are ppl who scored higher, 230, or lower. Nobody is saying you will just score 230+ because of SDN. Ppl are advising to do so. You don't know the difference because of your "bullshiit" reading comprehension and is consequently the causation in aforementioned board result.



Need source for this. You're talking about fact yet you're putting out exaggerated number without evidence.

Also, this is how your real advice sounds like, "You won't score above 230 because you're an idiot in bottom of class. Nope, forget specialty, primary care is your only option. In fact, don't even try, you won't do well even if you try."

Thank you SDN for the ignore function. I wouldn't want to hear what this idiot has to say again.

Yea I didn't do poor piss on the examinations. In fact, I did great piss on examinations.

ignoring facts doesn't make them untrue. If you are a poorly piss student, you don't just get to decide one day that you will do goodly piss on the examinations.

 

[dfib slim]

What exactly does it take to be at the top of your class? I don't mean like the extreme top...but like top 15-20%? Do you forego all social events and study 24/7?

Time management.

Being able to balance efficient studying alongside eating healthy, exercising, and getting a good night's rest (at least 6-7 hours).

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

Me personally, no. It seems that other people who do well maybe put in 8 hours a day? That's not unreasonable, if you treat school like a job. It's medicine, and should be taken seriously as people will rely on you in the future. You will find time to do the things you want to do no matter what. Obviously, the amount of time studying varies from person to person. YMMV. The point is that it's attainable, IMO, by any individual making it into med school.

Here is the thing though. Everyone puts in 8+ hours a day during boards season.

My point is being very misconstrued here. What I am trying to say is this: if you are are an average student and you score average on every test and are in the 50th percentile of your class rank and you study for 8 hours per day like every other average student, you should expect an average score.


If you are a below average student, and you score in the bottom quartile of your class rank, and then you study 8 hours per day for the boards, you shouldn't expect to just magically earn an average score.

There is nothing wrong with being in that quartile. Some of the smartest people I have ever met didn't perform well as m1/2s. You WILL however need to study a hell of a lot harder for the boards if you want to score above average.

This isnt undergrad. You can not just decide in march of your 2nd year that you want to be in the top of the class..... You need to log more hours and do more questions and dedicate more weeks than the average.

Its not as easy as just saying "hey im gonna kill the boards"

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

.

 

[NontradCA]

Here is the thing though. Everyone puts in 8+ hours a day during boards season.

My point is being very misconstrued here. What I am trying to say is this: if you are are an average student and you score average on every test and are in the 50th percentile of your class rank and you study for 8 hours per day like every other average student, you should expect an average score.


If you are a below average student, and you score in the bottom quartile of your class rank, and then you study 8 hours per day for the boards, you shouldn't expect do earn an average score.

There is nothing wrong with being in that quartile. Some of the smartest people I have ever met didn't perform well as m1/2s. You WILL however need to study a hell of a lot harder for the boards if you want to score above average.

This isnt undergrad. You can not just decide in march of your 2nd year that you want to be in the top of the class..... You need to log more hours and do more questions and dedicate more weeks than the average.

Its not as easy as just saying "hey im gonna kill the boards"

Seems like you're changing your argument. I think that most students will figure out where they stand, academically. I actually think that's the point of the first two years; working out how you learn medical information. So, as you said, students can work hard and perform well on their boards.

I have yet to find this student who's busting their ass, and still doing below average. I'm not saying they're not out there, but it's certainly not the norm. A lot of people talk about how hard medical school is, but you don't see them studying a lot, or showing up to class. Or reading and talking about what's going on.

SDN seems to have gone way off the deep end, and somehow we now say that studying gets students nowhere? That's 100% bull****.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

Seems like you're changing your argument. I think that most students will figure out where they stand, academically. I actually think that's the point of the first two years; working out how you learn medical information. So, as you said, students can work hard and perform well on their boards.

I have yet to find this student who's busting their ass, and still doing below average. I'm not saying they're not out there, but it's certainly not the norm. A lot of people talk about how hard medical school is, but you don't see them studying a lot, or showing up to class. Or reading and talking about what's going on.

SDN seems to have gone way off the deep end, and somehow we now say that studying gets students nowhere? That's 100% bull****.

I agree that the vast majority of medical students are capable of busting their ass and being in the top of the class.

I didnt say studying gets students nowhere. I am saying that you cant just one day in March of your second year decide that you are going to start trying, and expect that you will "kill the boards"

 

[IslandStyle808]

I agree that the vast majority of medical students are capable of busting their ass and being in the top of the class.

I didnt say studying gets students nowhere. I am saying that you cant just one day in March of your second year decide that you are going to start trying, and expect that you will "kill the boards"

Right but his/her case is a rising trend going from 2.6 to 3.2 GPA. Wouldn't it be a possibility if OP were to improve from this point out?

 

[DODundee]

Right but his/her case is a rising trend going from 2.6 to 3.2 GPA. Wouldn't it be a possibility if OP were to improve from this point out?

Haha thanks for bringing this back to my post. Reading through the posts, everything people have said here makes sense. It seems to have gotten a bit de-railed at this point, so let me clarify what I was asking. Do RDs take the time to look through the transcript and see changes in grades over a period of time, or do they simply glance at it to make sure there are no glaring marks such as X/Fail/etc? I know I will need to kill boards, that's a given.

Using numbers isnt being negative. Its actually just a fact. Nobody takes the boards aiming for a low score. The vast majority of students score average or below average


That is why your advice is the definition of bullshiit. You can call me whatever version of negative you want, but I speak in facts. While you cumbaya and hold hands for everyone to score 290s, the real world keeps on existing where telling someone to "kill the boards" doesnt translate into someone in the bottom half of the class "killing the boards"

Nobody aims for below average or average, but being as thats where probably 99% of below average students will end up, maybe lets give real advice.

Yankee, I think you are making some very broad generalizations and stating them as fact when in reality you have no statistics to back up your claim. Though that is not to say that your points aren't logical. But do you honestly believe GPA correlates with board scores for EVERY single person? At my school alone, I know of 20ish students that have terrible GPA's but amazing board scores simply because they lacked something at the beginning of medical school but were ultimately able to attain it throughout their years. These reasons vary quite a bit, for some it was poor study skills (my case), a shoddy balance between their personal life/endeavors and school, or a lack of motivation to do exceptionally well. At the end of the day, myself and those students addressed the character/habits that were limiting their education. My cGPA across my first three blocks went from a 2.3 to a 2.6 to a 3.2; that means that the grades in my first block were C/B- and currently are A/A-. I had a rough start, but I believe that I've turned it around and am doing well.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

Haha thanks for bringing this back to my post. Reading through the posts, everything people have said here makes sense. It seems to have gotten a bit de-railed at this point, so let me clarify what I was asking. Do RDs take the time to look through the transcript and see changes in grades over a period of time, or do they simply glance at it to make sure there are no glaring marks such as X/Fail/etc? I know I will need to kill boards, that's a given.




Yankee, I think you are making some very broad generalizations and stating them as fact when in reality you have no statistics to back up your claim. Though that is not to say that your points aren't logical. But do you honestly believe GPA correlates with board scores for EVERY single person? At my school alone, I know of 20ish students that have terrible GPA's but amazing board scores simply because they lacked something at the beginning of medical school but were ultimately able to attain it throughout their years. These reasons vary quite a bit, for some it was poor study skills (my case), a shoddy balance between their personal life/endeavors and school, or a lack of motivation to do exceptionally well. At the end of the day, myself and those students addressed the character/habits that were limiting their education. My cGPA across my first three blocks went from a 2.3 to a 2.6 to a 3.2; that means that the grades in my first block were C/B- and currently are A/A-. I had a rough start, but I believe that I've turned it around and am doing well.

A much more fun task would be... Why dont YOU find any stat you want to discredit the simple fact that below average students who score below average on tests score below average on the boards.


I will wait.


And just like every PD in the country, nobody cares about your GPA. I dont know what classes you are taking or how hard they are. For all anybody knows you take 300 credit hours of advanced coloring. Thats why class rank is the metric that everyone uses.

 

[kenjixshadow]

@DODundee Just ignore Yankee, dude is talking rubbish. He's claiming such "facts" but can't pull out statistics to support his arguments and probably tell you that you have to give him some proofs on your. How silly, that is like a plaintiff sues you with any evidence then tell you that you need to provide the indication. Put him on ignore, his opinion and existence are irrelevant. Good luck on M2 and the board btw.