Grades in PT school

[superpt123]

Hey guys,

So I was wondering how important is it to get good grades in PT school? I read that a lot of places require you to get at least 3.0 avg gpa to graduate but how much do your grades in school matter after that as long as you pass the licenses exams?

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[PT2Bee]

My school has a GPA requirement to stay in good standing (i.e. not academic probation) and a GPA requirement to go on rotations. If you're one of those people that gets in a tizzy about class rank and all that crap, sure, go for it...get straight A's. Of course you should always try your best and not settle for a C, but honestly, it's not the end of the world and if you meet the minimum and get your license, no one is going to say "hey what grade did you get in Kinesiology 1??" Getting top grades doesn't translate to being a good clinician necessarily...

 

[emespt]

I've read about some schools that will place you on probation if receive a final course grade or two underneath a B-. So if the student receives another grade below the cut off point, they are withdrawn from the program. As long as you stay above the minimum requirements, I don't think it matters.

 

[ktachiba]

It matters if you wanna do a residency I bet

 

[jdaniels360]

only for residency and even then, if your grades are decent, its not the most important category. Shoot for at least a 3.5 if you want a shot at residency though. Otherwise.... WHO CARES.

 

[Azimuthal]

I don't know man, I had a Fellow in my last rotation who told me he was on academic probation for most of the time he was in PT school. He told me that only the more well known sites are competitive, otherwise, most PT's don't want the salary hit to enter a residency or fellowship.

As for GPA, anything below a 3.0 is academic probation at my school. Hit two terms in a row without bringing your average up and you visit the review board. Sounds harsh, but there are too many resources for students to stray that far off. I mean, hired tutors, learning consults, etc., etc.

 

[MCWills]

Honestly, I would just make sure you're meeting expectations to stay in school. At my school you need an 80% to pass a class and a 3.0 GPA to stay in school. If you fail a course you have to retake it the following year, bump back down to the class year below you, and I believe you are on academic probation when you return.

Bottom line: pass your classes and keep your GPA up so you can stay in school. Then study your ass off to pass the licensing exam. Easy, right?

 

[DesertPT]

If you graduate and become licensed, chances are low to none that your PT school GPA will ever have any appreciable effect on the course of your life.

Once you're in, then the pre-PT days of "getting an A in every class is do-or-die" are over my friend.

Although I'm pretty confident getting a B in PT school classes will take a lot more work then getting an A+ in most of my undergrad classes would have...

 

[Azimuthal]

If you graduate and become licensed, chances are low to none that your PT school GPA will ever have any appreciable effect on the course of your life.

Once you're in, then the pre-PT days of "getting an A in every class is do-or-die" are over my friend.

A classmate imposed this question on me while we were studying, "Do you know what they call the person with the lowest GPA in the class at graduation?"

Answer: "Physical Therapist. Can we get lunch now?"

 

[DesertPT]

A classmate imposed this question on me while we were studying, "Do you know what they call the person with the lowest GPA in the class at graduation?"

Answer: "Physical Therapist. Can we get lunch now?"

Classic. No doubt.

 

[TheDarkKnight14]

Are class grades curved? Can't believe I didn't think of this question until now. After the fun undergrad experience where getting 50/100 or 100/200 is a C because exams were borderline impossible at times, I'm wondering what classes are like for PT school regarding grading. Not to mention, the 3.0 req is a bit daunting

 

[PT2Bee]

Are class grades curved? Can't believe I didn't think of this question until now. After the fun undergrad experience where getting 50/100 or 100/200 is a C because exams were borderline impossible at times, I'm wondering what classes are like for PT school regarding grading. Not to mention, the 3.0 req is a bit daunting

hahahahahah leave those curving expectations in the rear view my friend. You won't find them quite like that. A point or two bump from a bad exam question, sure, but don't expect to pass if you failed. 3.0 isn't really that difficult to maintain. You get in a studying routine. Usually if staying above 3 is an issue, it's a study habit/time management issue.

 

[kcrat21]

Every class in my program is pass/fail. You have to get at least 70% on every exam to pass though, and if you don't you have to take the exam again. If you fail a second time, you're out. And there is a limit to how many exams you can fail, but thankfully I don't have to worry about all that anymore, ha!

I haven't heard of many schools doing pass/fail, I wonder if it's specific to my program. It certainly eliminates the competition to some degree.

 

[PT2Bee]

Every class in my program is pass/fail. You have to get at least 70% on every exam to pass though, and if you don't you have to take the exam again. If you fail a second time, you're out. And there is a limit to how many exams you can fail, but thankfully I don't have to worry about all that anymore, ha!

I haven't heard of many schools doing pass/fail, I wonder if it's specific to my program. It certainly eliminates the competition to some degree.

that sounds absolutely awful

 

[DesertPT]

Are class grades curved? Can't believe I didn't think of this question until now. After the fun undergrad experience where getting 50/100 or 100/200 is a C because exams were borderline impossible at times, I'm wondering what classes are like for PT school regarding grading. Not to mention, the 3.0 req is a bit daunting

The ridiculous curves and grade inflation of undergrad exists because people don't actually try that hard, and the prof can't just have 70% of the class get failed every semester.

As far as I can tell, the undergrad classes with "borderline impossible" exams are going to be more like the work load of the easier classes in PT school. Grades will not be curved.

Perhaps someone who is actually in PT school can second this so I don't look like I'm talking out my butt...

 

[aaronlp88]

The ridiculous curves and grade inflation of undergrad exists because people don't actually try that hard, and the prof can't just have 70% of the class get failed every semester.

As far as I can tell, the undergrad classes with "borderline impossible" exams are going to be more like the work load of the easier classes in PT school. Grades will not be curved.

Perhaps someone who is actually in PT school can second this so I don't look like I'm talking out my butt...

I'm not in PT school yet, but from what current students have told me, the material is not hard at all, and it shouldn't be since it is content that we will be applying when school is over. What makes PT school difficult is the volume of information. My "borderline impossible" exams in college were from classes that didn't interest me at all; I don't think you will have those types of exams in PT school since everything were learning should be interesting to us (at least most of it).

 

[kcrat21]

that sounds absolutely awful

I think it took some of the stress off. 70% is barely a C. If you can't get that, what are you doing in PT school in the first place?

 

[ktachiba]

I think it took some of the stress off. 70% is barely a C. If you can't get that, what are you doing in PT school in the first place?

Which program is this? 70% seems too easy

 

[TheDarkKnight14]

I rather like the idea of a P/F system. I remember talking to a UCSD pharm student a few years ago and she mentioned that it not only took stress off, but also encouraged more cooperation among students rather than feel like she was getting ranked. Although, I don't think that a 70% should be a pass at this point...that seems a bit low. :|

 

[DesertPT]

At the program I will be starting anything less an 83% puts you on probation and anything less than 73% is a fail/dismissal.

 

[TheDarkKnight14]

^ Yea I noticed that in the manual too. Tough loving there. Although it is 83% cumulative and I think 80% in a course iirc. Whoo.

 

[dptkbrown_1385]

At the program I will be starting anything less an 83% puts you on probation and anything less than 73% is a fail/dismissal.

What school are you going to?

 

[Carson Ranger]

Where's this manual?

 

[kcrat21]

Which program is this? 70% seems too easy

Duke. Not an easy program by any means. Exams were super tough, covering the finest of details. I did fail the first anatomy exam and had to retake it. No issues since. Our program stresses TBL to the max, so having a P/F system definitely helped foster that. It was much more relaxed and collaborative that way. People still struggled, but you have others to help pick you up if you fall because they aren't so worried about their own crap....I liked it a lot and miss it now that I'm in the clinic all by myself!

 

[SympatheticTrunk]

For clinical rotations at least one of the sites for my program has a GPA requirement of a B+ average, not all of the sites have this requirement, but it is something to consider.

 

[okramango]

If your PT program offers scholarships, then getting good grades helps you get that free money. That's one of the main reasons I've worked hard to get good grades in PT school. Also, high grades will help you get residencies later, if that's something you're interested in.

My school doesn't allow anyone to get more than one C throughout the program. I think it's fairly common for most programs to have some type of requirement like this. Most PT students are able to do it, so just work hard and you'll be fine.

Are class grades curved?

 

[engmedpt]

I literally see no benefit whatsoever from doing a residency outside of getting into a difficult niche. Networking would fix that. If I'm wrong can someone clarify for me? I must be missing something. And I'm not talking about what the school advertises on their website about the benefits of the residency program.

 

[kcrat21]

I literally see no benefit whatsoever from doing a residency outside of getting into a difficult niche. Networking would fix that. If I'm wrong can someone clarify for me? I must be missing something. And I'm not talking about what the school advertises on their website about the benefits of the residency program.

I thought about residency for a little bit bc I am interested in neuro and was finding it really difficult to find a job bc most employers want significant experience. My CI for my six month neuro clinical refused to write me a recommendation though bc she thinks residency is a giant waste of time. I believe her exact words were, "did you win the lottery and not need to work for real money for a year?!" Most residencies pay you basically nothing (I know at Duke they make about $30000) and work you like a dog. Basically only worth it if research is your thing and even then it's questionable (might as well get a phd).

In the end I kept chugging along getting my resume out there, and 90% of the jobs I applied/interviewed for were because someone knew someone who knew someone and passed my resume along. I ended up getting a job in neuro just like I wanted and will be able to get my NCS in a few years anyway without the residency.

So basically, residency is a giant waste of time, get certified some other way, or take CEUs that you are interested in and market yourself that way. I'm doing an MS Fellowship and I'm LSVT Big certified....lots of things to do that will make you more marketable and "specialized" than a residency....

 

[NewTestament]

C=DPT at my school. You can get a C in almost every class and still pass. Believe me, C is the new B in graduate school. I had to work far harder for a C+ in PT school than I did for any A in undergraduate school.

Residencies are only worth it if you absolutely want to specialize and want to be the best in that specialty. But the pay is lousy, and for most students with onerous debt (>$100k), it's not a smart option. You can make more than twice as much working in a SNF or doing travel therapy.

 

[TheDarkKnight14]

C=DPT at my school. You can get a C in almost every class and still pass. Believe me, C is the new B in graduate school. I had to work far harder for a C+ in PT school than I did for any A in undergraduate school.

Residencies are only worth it if you absolutely want to specialize and want to be the best in that specialty. But the pay is lousy, and for most students with onerous debt (>$100k), it's not a smart option. You can make more than twice as much working in a SNF or doing travel therapy.

Whaa what school do you attend? :|

 

[engmedpt]

^ I assume USA? The accelerated course curriculum is INTENSE from what I've heard. I wouldn't be surprised if faculty cut the students some leeway on the mountain of credits they have. It would make sense. The PT's I've met are great too.

 

[NewTestament]

USA. It is an accelerated program so we have a greater margin for error.

When you apply to a school, just make sure the graduation rate is >95%.

 

[DesertPT]

You can get a C in almost every class and still pass.

Wow.

 

[NewTestament]

Wow.

Why "wow"? As long as the pass rate for the board exam is high, it doesn't really matter. Most learning occurs OTJ anyway, and most things you learn in PT school are already outdated.

 

[DesertPT]

Why "wow"? As long as the pass rate for the board exam is high, it doesn't really matter. Most learning occurs OTJ anyway, and most things you learn in PT school are already outdated.

I'm just saying wow at how widely school's policies can differ. Some allow 1 C, some allow mostly C's.

 

[starrsgirl]

Definitely depends on schools. Our targeted average on class is a low B (ie exams/grades are designed with the idea the bell curve maxes over a B-). So that means a good chunk of the class will fall below that. You can get a C in every class and pass (not a C- though). Although at our school you would be on academic probation if you got all Cs one semester. I worked my tail off for a C in one class so far, so don't assume it's easy to hit. But then some other classes are much easier so it balances out.

 

[jesspt]

I literally see no benefit whatsoever from doing a residency outside of getting into a difficult niche. Networking would fix that. If I'm wrong can someone clarify for me? I must be missing something. And I'm not talking about what the school advertises on their website about the benefits of the residency program.

The patients of some residency-trained clinicians may disagree with you.

 

[ptisfun2]

Hey guys,

So I was wondering how important is it to get good grades in PT school? I read that a lot of places require you to get at least 3.0 avg gpa to graduate but how much do your grades in school matter after that as long as you pass the licenses exams?

I think the short answer is 'results may vary.' I am not the ACCE/DCE at my univ, but I know that clinics do not want their time wasted for rotations. And comments like 'PT is on the job training' are things that make CIs think their time is being wasted. A lot of 'good' clinical sites are now requiring PT students to submit applications, and yes, grades are part of that. And interview them. Since we just finished rotation placement, I just wrote a bunch of recommendation letters for our students for rotations. Of course, their grades in my course played a role in if I said yes to writing a letter, and for those who I said yes to, if the letter was good to glowing. For those who think you just need to pass the NPTE, you first need to complete a gradate academic program. I know when I am interviewing applicants, my primary question is, 'Will this person succeed in a professional graduate program?' If they cannot, then passing a fairly straight forward exam is not a consideration. Any patient will require more critical thinking than the NPTE (the passing standard is a 'minimally competent entry-level practitioner'...a low bar indeed). Again, I can speak my my univ only, but we have a fairly high standard for the students, and although grades are not the only metric of student success, it certainly is one.

 

[DesertPT]

I think the short answer is 'results may vary.' I am not the ACCE/DCE at my univ, but I know that clinics do not want their time wasted for rotations. And comments like 'PT is on the job training' are things that make CIs think their time is being wasted. A lot of 'good' clinical sites are now requiring PT students to submit applications, and yes, grades are part of that. And interview them. Since we just finished rotation placement, I just wrote a bunch of recommendation letters for our students for rotations. Of course, their grades in my course played a role in if I said yes to writing a letter, and for those who I said yes to, if the letter was good to glowing. For those who think you just need to pass the NPTE, you first need to complete a gradate academic program. I know when I am interviewing applicants, my primary question is, 'Will this person succeed in a professional graduate program?' If they cannot, then passing a fairly straight forward exam is not a consideration. Any patient will require more critical thinking than the NPTE (the passing standard is a 'minimally competent entry-level practitioner'...a low bar indeed). Again, I can speak my my univ only, but we have a fairly high standard for the students, and although grades are not the only metric of student success, it certainly is one.

Thanks @ptisfun2. Your comments are always very valuable as we tend to have minimal faculty involvement here on the pre-PT forum.

 

[engmedpt]

The patients of some residency-trained clinicians may disagree with you.

I really want to discuss this topic.

Fair enough. But some patients of someone who worked somewhere for two years might agree with me. The first year working may just be the equivalent of a residency. The faculty member above also argued that clinical rotations are NOT meant to be a waste of time. They are your training. Should you not be prepared to just practice when you're done?

You definitely offered a valid hypothetical, but I'm going to offer a concrete experience I had (not saying that you don't have a concrete example. I want to emphasize that I'm not being hostile here).

I had a very bad observation about this system that has formed my opinion. While volunteering at a place for six months I saw one clinician, a recent, eager grad who was an excellent people person and explained things in depth to patients in much more detail than his older counterparts on a "residency." I asked him about it occasionally to which he would reply that it was supposed to help him gain more clinical knowledge and get better training. His responses went from "I'm not too sure it's working" to "I'm fooling everyone here" (in response to when I said he always had a great attitude about himself and looked happy). Well, I was there on the second half of his residency. He had applied for the full position. The outcome? An MD's relative was hired INSTEAD. It was a physician owned clinic. As a new grad. Starting at the full time salary. While wiping beds, I overheard one of the PT's who had worked there for many years saying (this one is actually paraphrased) 'Well is it better to hire a new grad or should you hire someone after residency? Well, I dunno. I really dunno.' (Hands tossed up in the air a bit).......Does that make intuitive sense at all? Overhearing this was frustrating to say the very least. This guy did a "residency" at which time he kept mentioning it wasn't doing anything while taking half a salary and not having a job offer. The new grad through family was hired. Unbelievably unethical. I felt so bad for this guy. His residency was the equivalent of taking a 1 year job that only offered him half the salary and an accelerated title which hearsay told me you get after working in a specialty after a few years anyway (unless this is incorrect) and then being booted out.

^This is a completely true experience that occurred in my volunteering.

 

[SwampPT]

I really want to discuss this topic.

Fair enough. But some patients of someone who worked somewhere for two years might agree with me. The first year working may just be the equivalent of a residency. The faculty member above also argued that clinical rotations are NOT meant to be a waste of time. They are your training. Should you not be prepared to just practice when you're done?

You definitely offered a valid hypothetical, but I'm going to offer a concrete experience I had (not saying that you don't have a concrete example. I want to emphasize that I'm not being hostile here).

I had a very bad observation about this system that has formed my opinion. While volunteering at a place for six months I saw one clinician, a recent, eager grad who was an excellent people person and explained things in depth to patients in much more detail than his older counterparts on a "residency." I asked him about it occasionally to which he would reply that it was supposed to help him gain more clinical knowledge and get better training. His responses went from "I'm not too sure it's working" to "I'm fooling everyone here" (in response to when I said he always had a great attitude about himself and looked happy). Well, I was there on the second half of his residency. He had applied for the full position. The outcome? An MD's relative was hired INSTEAD. It was a physician owned clinic. As a new grad. Starting at the full time salary. While wiping beds, I overheard one of the PT's who had worked there for many years saying (this one is actually paraphrased) 'Well is it better to hire a new grad or should you hire someone after residency? Well, I dunno. I really dunno.' (Hands tossed up in the air a bit).......Does that make intuitive sense at all? Overhearing this was frustrating to say the very least. This guy did a "residency" at which time he kept mentioning it wasn't doing anything while taking half a salary and not having a job offer. The new grad through family was hired. Unbelievably unethical. I felt so bad for this guy. His residency was the equivalent of taking a 1 year job that only offered him half the salary and an accelerated title which hearsay told me you get after working in a specialty after a few years anyway (unless this is incorrect) and then being booted out.

^This is a completely true experience that occurred in my volunteering.

I'm haven't formed an opinion on residency as of yet. However, nepotism is nothing new and prevalent in every profession. The truth is that the most qualified person doesn't always get the job. Often, it's not what you know but who you know. I am going to wait until I'm nearing the end of PT school and then I'm going to look at the pros and con's of residency. I figure I will have a much clearer vision of where I'm heading by then. Right now I know enough to know that I haven't got a clue. A couple years from now I will be a wealth of knowledge hopefully!

 

[kcrat21]

I really want to discuss this topic.

Fair enough. But some patients of someone who worked somewhere for two years might agree with me. The first year working may just be the equivalent of a residency. The faculty member above also argued that clinical rotations are NOT meant to be a waste of time. They are your training. Should you not be prepared to just practice when you're done?

You definitely offered a valid hypothetical, but I'm going to offer a concrete experience I had (not saying that you don't have a concrete example. I want to emphasize that I'm not being hostile here).

I had a very bad observation about this system that has formed my opinion. While volunteering at a place for six months I saw one clinician, a recent, eager grad who was an excellent people person and explained things in depth to patients in much more detail than his older counterparts on a "residency." I asked him about it occasionally to which he would reply that it was supposed to help him gain more clinical knowledge and get better training. His responses went from "I'm not too sure it's working" to "I'm fooling everyone here" (in response to when I said he always had a great attitude about himself and looked happy). Well, I was there on the second half of his residency. He had applied for the full position. The outcome? An MD's relative was hired INSTEAD. It was a physician owned clinic. As a new grad. Starting at the full time salary. While wiping beds, I overheard one of the PT's who had worked there for many years saying (this one is actually paraphrased) 'Well is it better to hire a new grad or should you hire someone after residency? Well, I dunno. I really dunno.' (Hands tossed up in the air a bit).......Does that make intuitive sense at all? Overhearing this was frustrating to say the very least. This guy did a "residency" at which time he kept mentioning it wasn't doing anything while taking half a salary and not having a job offer. The new grad through family was hired. Unbelievably unethical. I felt so bad for this guy. His residency was the equivalent of taking a 1 year job that only offered him half the salary and an accelerated title which hearsay told me you get after working in a specialty after a few years anyway (unless this is incorrect) and then being booted out.

^This is a completely true experience that occurred in my volunteering.

You can get the equivalent of a residency after a certain number of hours of patient care and then taking the certification exam. Personally, my question is, if you are going into a residency as a brand new grad, is it really feasible to think that you will be an EXPERT in that specific aspect of PT after just ONE year of experience?! I'd rather take a few years to accumulate those patient care hours and experience and then study for the exam and become certified that way...seems like a more legitimate way to become an "expert". But that's just my opinion....