Grades vs P/F...any influence?

[necronomicon]

While reading through all the gunning-for-ROAD threads, it occurred to me that some schools have grade systems (some even include +/-), where others have P/F. I could see this being problematic when it comes time to apply for the match. I recognize that the COMLEX and USMLE act as equalizers, much like the MCAT, but how detrimental can a GPA be to an applicant with great board scores and solid LORs/rotation marks? When you have two candidates with all other stats similar, who gets the nod? The applicant that passed everything or the applicant with a 3.2 GPA? Is this where rank comes into play? What if rank isn't taken?

Additionally, everyone talks about the average GPA for med school applicants. How about average GPAs for residency applicants? I know that everyone's aiming for a 4.0...but are people still matching into competitive programs with a 3.5? I've not seen any data on this and was hoping for some insight into it.

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[DocEspana]

Even in a P/F you get a grade. You just never see it. The school keeps track of it and you still have a top 5%, 10%, 20% and top half demarcations. Because in the end your GPA doesnt (really) matter even if you have letter grades, its the class rank. And Rank is kept even in P/F schools.

Also, there is now a boatload of data and studies to show that P/F doesnt impact 1) GPA, 2) Board scores or 3) Attendance. But does seem to lead to student self-reporting more happiness with their classes.

 

[necronomicon]

Even in a P/F you get a grade. You just never see it. The school keeps track of it and you still have a top 5%, 10%, 20% and top half demarcations. Because in the end your GPA doesnt (really) matter even if you have letter grades, its the class rank. And Rank is kept even in P/F schools.

Also, there is now a boatload of data and studies to show that P/F doesnt impact 1) GPA, 2) Board scores or 3) Attendance. But does seem to lead to student self-reporting more happiness with their classes.

The ranking system made sense to me, but I had a friend tell me that his school uses P/F and that there is no distinction made between someone that passes with a 70% and someone that passes with a 98%. I suppose they don't realize that there is an internal ranking kept by the school. Thanks for the clarity.

How does one obtain their ranking? Is it as simple as asking the registrar or is it never disclosed until your transcripts are released for the match?

 

[DocEspana]

The ranking system made sense to me, but I had a friend tell me that his school uses P/F and that there is no distinction made between someone that passes with a 70% and someone that passes with a 98%. I suppose they don't realize that there is an internal ranking kept by the school. Thanks for the clarity.

Highly likely. The P/F system is more of a "you never know what your grade is" rather than "The grade doesnt exist in an exact form". Which brings me to:

How does one obtain their ranking? Is it as simple as asking the registrar or is it never disclosed until your transcripts are released for the match?

Im sure you can just ask for it, but its not given out or available unless you go out of your way to ask for it.

 

[chasing5]

Also, there is now a boatload of data and studies to show that P/F doesnt impact 1) GPA, 2) Board scores or 3) Attendance. But does seem to lead to student self-reporting more happiness with their classes.

I can see this being spot-on. And I think it's a worthwhile factor to consider on it's own. Clearly Medical School is a grueling process that involves lots of dedication - I cannot imagine how much more stressful (psychologically wise) having a graded system makes the whole experience. P/F all the way.

 

[olivedjazzer]

Something that hasn't been explicitly said...

You work as hard as you want to/are able to and at the end of the day, you are going to fall in line right where you belong. For some people this is the top 5% and for others, its the bottom 5%. I wouldn't worry about competing with anyone except for yourself. It sounds cheezy but I promise that you will go crazy if you try and out-study that nerd in the library - you're either are or are not the nerd. Stay healthy and stay focused on your goals.

And don't forget to have a good time (occasionally).

 

[HooliganSnail]

Well said. Honestly study the best you can, take the test, and be content with what you get. Life is too short and there is enough stress already without worrying about class rank.

 

[Chimpanzee]

Just do your best. I would imagine a P/F is favorable over a grade/percent, but keep in mind that you'll have a class rank regardless.

 

[r90t]

Class rank and board scores are more important than a GPA, as both a good comparisons on how someone will do. We looked at these when interviewing med students. You had to be in the 80th percentile for USMLE, or the rest of your application didn't get looked at. Easy way to screen. Once we started look at apps. rank was a factor. I don't expect someone in the bottom of the class and squeaking by on passing Step I/II on being a very good candidate for a neurosurgery residency.

 

[JamDoc]

Board scores >> class rank > grades > extra curriculars. In my opinion.

 

[group_theory]

Class rank and board scores are more important than a GPA, as both a good comparisons on how someone will do. We looked at these when interviewing med students. You had to be in the 80th percentile for USMLE, or the rest of your application didn't get looked at. Easy way to screen. Once we started look at apps. rank was a factor. I don't expect someone in the bottom of the class and squeaking by on passing Step I/II on being a very good candidate for a neurosurgery residency.

Having participate in my residency's selection - there is a lot of similarities.

Your preclinical grades is just one factor (and we focus on your class ranking in terms of percentile) because there is variability in how schools grade. If you fail a class or repeat a year, it raises a red flag (for additional review). Your clinical rotation grades (compare to your peers) are also reviewed, along with your USMLE/COMLEX scores. LORs, how you did on interview, additional "factors", all come into play.

Basically, the important stuff that residency selection committee looks at - are located in the Dean's Letter, or MSPE, which is standardize and the majority of schools (MDs and DOs) use.