Grades...

[Horsiegirl101]

Hi everyone, I'm really hoping you can help me. I have a 3.8 weighted GPA, but I wanted to apply to more competitive colleges. My guidance counselor says that I can retake these classes. I got a B in six, and a C in honors chemistry. I want to apply to ivy league schools, but I probably won't be able to get in with these grades. My guidance counselor said that although I can retake them, it won't replace the grades I originally got. The "B"s and "C" will still be visible to colleges. What should I do?

Should I retake them, or just take the bad grades?

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[jshlaferman]

I'm kind of on the same boat as you. I'm a junior with a 4.0 weighted GPA, but for me at least, I have a very visible upward trend in my grades. Do you have multiple AP classes? Close relations with guidance counselor/teacher that will write a good LOR? I don't think I'd retake the classes if you was put in that position only because the college will see your other grades. Just stay involved in whatever ECs you have. What else do you have going for you?

 

[Horsiegirl101]

My extracurriculars so far include cast (chorus) of Beauty and the Beast and Music Man, Crew in Annie (musical theater in other words), chamber choir, select singing group, math league, editor of school newspaper, symphonic handbell choir, youth group, and equestrian. I'm also hoping to get a job and volunteer this summer. Any advice for me?

Oh, and I have taken Honors English I, II, and III, Honors Chemistry (which I got a C in, and the teacher made fun of us when we asked questions) and Contemporary World Issues (why thats an honors class, I have no idea, lol). Yeah, I go to a smaller school, and they dont really offer many AP classes. I wish they had more. What about you?

I'm kind of on the same boat as you. I'm a junior with a 4.0 weighted GPA, but for me at least, I have a very visible upward trend in my grades. Do you have multiple AP classes? Close relations with guidance counselor/teacher that will write a good LOR? I don't think I'd retake the classes if you was put in that position only because the college will see your other grades. Just stay involved in whatever ECs you have. What else do you have going for you?

 

[jshlaferman]

My extracurriculars so far include cast (chorus) of Beauty and the Beast and Music Man, Crew in Annie (musical theater in other words), chamber choir, select singing group, math league, editor of school newspaper, symphonic handbell choir, youth group, and equestrian. I'm also hoping to get a job and volunteer this summer. Any advice for me?

Seems like you have a lot of ECs which is good, how are your grades/SAT scores?

 

[Horsiegirl101]

As of now, I have a 3.715 GPA, and I'm ranked 27 out of 143, so in the top 18%. I haven't taken the SAT or ACT yet, but I'm signed up for the June ACT, so fingers crossed... I took a couple practice tests, and got around a 27, average. Im hoping to raise it to at least a 30, minimum. Do you know of any good practice books I could try?

Seems like you have a lot of ECs which is good, how are your grades/SAT scores?

 

[jshlaferman]

As of now, I have a 3.715 GPA, and I'm ranked 27 out of 143, so in the top 18%. I haven't taken the SAT or ACT yet, but I'm signed up for the June ACT, so fingers crossed... I took a couple practice tests, and got around a 27, average. Im hoping to raise it to at least a 30, minimum. Do you know of any good practice books I could try?

Same situation as you, I haven't done any practice tests or gotten books yet but I plan on it this week. I'm signing up for the May SAT tomorrow. But you'll be fine, you have plenty going for you.

 

[Arayh]

Your GPA is fine. Retaking those few classes isn't going to show more than your standardized test grades. Focus your time on the SAT and ACT, do as many practice questions as possible.

 

[asanch]

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[MarylandMatt]

I'd be more concerned about getting a C in honors chemistry if you plan on doing pre-med.

 

[jturkel]

Hey everyone, I'll be an M1 this summer at Eastern Virginia Medical school. Unless you greatly desire to attend a medical school that you also did your undergrad at (for example, U of Arizona, Harvard, UCLA, etc), the reputation of your undergrad institution makes no practical difference (ivy leagues being the exception, I'm guessing). Furthermore, not every medical school is attatched to an undergraduate institution, making it matter even less. Obviously you want to go to a good college and get a good education, but med schools care about your MCAT, gpa, extra curriculars, experience, research, etc ASTRONOMICALLY more than they care whether you went to a marginally-better college, relatively.

Congrats on being an M1 this summer. But you're wrong....college name/reputation does matter. This has been addressed in countless threads already

 

[asanch]

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[mizzu]

I'd be more concerned about getting a C in honors chemistry if you plan on doing pre-med.

Chemistry is hard for most people first time around. What was your math level? Chemistry is highly correlated to math abilities.

Honestly, if your goal is pre-med, I wouldn't sweat it about ivy league or school name. Your main concern is grades and MCAT, followed by EC. If you get into a highly competitive school, you may not be able to keep up, and that'll be it (or spend money and do a post bac)

 

[MarylandMatt]

Chemistry is hard for most people first time around. What was your math level? Chemistry is highly correlated to math abilities.

Honestly, if your goal is pre-med, I wouldn't sweat it about ivy league or school name. Your main concern is grades and MCAT, followed by EC. If you get into a highly competitive school, you may not be able to keep up, and that'll be it (or spend money and do a post bac)

I don't remember much math in honors chem. It was all just knowing the big ideas and generalities. The most complicated thing we did was electron configs. I remember a friend and I "got" everything days before the rest of the class. I can understand not putting the effort in and getting a C, but if you actually try your hardest and get a C, I think that is problematic.

Got an A in it, B in Pre-Calc the same year. Now in AP Calc + AP Chem.

Regardless, no one gets into an Ivy with a 3.8 weighted unless they can throw a football 60 yards.

 

[jlescher]

Congrats on being an M1 this summer. But you're wrong....college name/reputation does matter. This has been addressed in countless threads already

I don't mean to be argumentative, but just because a bunch of pre-meds speculate for days about it on a thread doesn't make it true. There is no data to support it and if you talk to admissions directors you will get mixed responses. The majority say it doesn't matter at all. I'm sure there are individual exceptions but undergrad institution is on the less important end of the spectrum for admissions criteria.

I guess my point is that as a high school student, going to an ivy league UG probably shouldn't be a top priority. If anything, you will be competing against smarter students which will decrease your likelihood of getting good grades. If you graduate with a 3.0, I don't care what UG you went to; your chances of getting an acceptance are very very low. It would be more beneficial to go to any school with a good premed program that gets you solid clinical experience and research opportunities.

 

[jturkel]

I don't mean to be argumentative, but just because a bunch of pre-meds speculate for days about it on a thread doesn't make it true. There is no data to support it and if you talk to admissions directors you will get mixed responses. The majority say it doesn't matter at all. I'm sure there are individual exceptions but undergrad institution is on the less important end of the spectrum for admissions criteria.

I guess my point is that as a high school student, going to an ivy league UG probably shouldn't be a top priority. If anything, you will be competing against smarter students which will decrease your likelihood of getting good grades. If you graduate with a 3.0, I don't care what UG you went to; your chances of getting an acceptance are very very low. It would be more beneficial to go to any school with a good premed program that gets you solid clinical experience and research opportunities.

You are wrong. There are plenty of program directors and members of admissions committees on this forum who have weighed in on the matter. There is data that you are not privy to. Do your research on this forum.

 

[jlescher]

You are wrong. There are plenty of program directors and members of admissions committees on this forum who have weighed in on the matter. There is data that you are not privy to. Do your research on this forum.

That's really interesting because deans of admission have lied to my face then (Maryland, Wisconsin, GWU just to name a few). I'm actually not being sarcastic although it might seem that way. I have looked around on the forums and the general consensus seems to be that it doesn't matter much. Mainly because it's difficult to quantify because there are so many variables. Do ivy league med schools want to accept Ivy league applicants? Probably, I'll concede that. Do you know of specific threads were adcom members have actually weighed in on this? Most of the threads are pre meds and med students arguing about this and it gets pretty tedious to read through all that looking for a credible source.

 

[jlescher]

Well I did find one in which LizzyM discusses a list of rigor and MCAT averages that ad coms have access to. You very well could be right, I've just encountered multiple credible sources that have said otherwise. Not a big deal, just an interesting topic that I don't need to worry about anymore.

 

[jturkel]

Well I did find one in which LizzyM discusses a list of rigor and MCAT averages that ad coms have access to. You very well could be right, I've just encountered multiple credible sources that have said otherwise. Not a big deal, just an interesting topic that I don't need to worry about anymore.

I'm not trying to start an argument. I went to a state university and have had to work my way upstream. I wish it didn't work that way as there are plenty of brilliant hard working people that go to state programs, but that's just the way it is

 

[jlescher]

Yeah in not trying to argue either, that never goes anywhere. I'm just surprised that we have encountered conflicting information.

 

[Tigrane]

Hi everyone, I just joined SDN to get more information on how to improve my chances of a medical career in the future. I am only 15 years old, Freshman in high school, but i'm a guy that likes to look way into the future, on where I'm going to live and stuff like that. Right now I have a 3.7 GPA. Next year, I'm gonna work my butt off for at least a minimum GPA of 3.8/3.9. My sister had a boyfriend that she broke up with recently, but he was going to medical school and applying and everything, he was my main source of information about this stuff, but now he's gone. He had a 4.0 GPA, around 37/38 MCAT score and he still was not accepted to many of the medical schools he applied, too. So my plan right now (Will definitely change as I get older) is to get a 3.8-4.0 GPA in Sophmore, Junior, and Senior year in high school. For my SAT scores I would want to get maybe a 1800-1900, if that's good or not. Later I would like to be accepted to UC Davis or schools close to that, but may go to community college to save some money and then transfer (Maybe). Then apply for Medical School. But if I am not accepted to the good schools for example, UCSF, what other schools are good to try to apply to? Also, for my life point of view, my dad bought our house when he was around mid-30's. It cost about 550,000. I don't know his salary from back then, but I've always wanted to live in a snowy area, with forests and lots of trees, so I always wanted to live in Lake Tahoe, maybe Truckee. I always look at real estate for Truckee and there are plenty of houses for 450,000+/700,000-. Before he bought the house, he rented an apartment then rented a house close to this one until finally he bought it. I don't know about if the houses are gonna go up in price when I actually want to buy one, but lets say it stays the same. If I planned to rent an apartment until I had enough to afford a house in Truckee for maybe 550,000 average, could I do it? Would I be making enough money. Because in my mid-thrities, I would be done with my fellowship. But if I was planning on being an internist, to focus on everything kind of, would I need a fellowship or just a shorter one? Please give me your full opinion! Thank you (Also, if I got bad grades in Freshman year, but not in the other years, would that effect me a lot?)

 

[jlescher]

@Tigrane Oh boy, you might like to plan but you are looking a little too far ahead. Bad grades when? Freshman year of high school? Med schools don't look at anything you do in high school. Bad grades freshman year of college? Aim for As, if you get couple Bs that's fine, and avoid Cs. Try to rock all of your pre rec science classes. Med schools split your grades into science and all other so if you have a 3.7 but bomb some of the science classes it's easy to end up with a 3.4 science gap and that will not look good. Consider waiting a semester to start the pre recs so you can adjust to college. Just don't screw up too bad your freshman year and you're fine. Your friend with the crazy stats was probably lying to you (a 38 is around the 99th%), applied to all of the top 20 schools (no one is guaranteed to get accepted at these schools), or had something seriously wrong with his application (i.e. no clinical experience). Which brings me to the big question. As a 15 year old, why do you want to be a doctor in the first place? Honestly, you should enjoy being a teen, get good grades, and get into Davis if that's what you want to do. It's a great school. Then start thinking about med school. Volunteer in a clinic and find a lab that's doing some research you find interesting. Things will fall into place. There is no way for you to even begin to considering which med schools to apply to because you have absolutely no idea how you stack up to the competition.

 

[jlescher]

As far as UCSF, one could argue that it's the best medical school in the country. Realistically you would probably be looking at a gap year or two to make yourself competitive enough for a school like that. They love research minded applicants so: try to get a couple publications before you apply and present at a scientific conference or two. Get a 3.7+ GPA and a 35+ MCAT score. Spend your summer(s) giving shots and saving babies in Africa. Start a student organization or two and you will begin to have a realistic shot at UCSF.

There is nothing wrong with dreaming and I hope you work hard and go for it, but statistically speaking you won't even apply to medical school let alone get an acceptance at UCSF. Just enjoy the process and you'll end up were you should. Best of luck!

 

[Tigrane]

As far as UCSF, one could argue that it's the best medical school in the country. Realistically you would probably be looking at a gap year or two to make yourself competitive enough for a school like that. They love research minded applicants so: try to get a couple publications before you apply and present at a scientific conference or two. Get a 3.7+ GPA and a 35+ MCAT score. Spend your summer(s) giving shots and saving babies in Africa. Start a student organization or two and you will begin to have a realistic shot at UCSF.

There is nothing wrong with dreaming and I hope you work hard and go for it, but statistically speaking you won't even apply to medical school let alone get an acceptance at UCSF. Just enjoy the process and you'll end up were you should. Best of luck!

Thanks for your input, what other schools not as hard to get into, but good enough, maybe close to California, but it doesn't matter. I've always been interested in medicine, since I was young, so I would like to pursue a career in medicine. And if I don't work hard now, will it not effect me later on? I know UCSF is not really a option considering it's one of the top tier schools, but it was just an example. My sisters last boyfriend, that I was talking about, actually works at UCSF in the lab, volunteer work, would that not give him a better chance, but by the way, he was wait listed not rejected. But for the bad grades, I have a C in Spanish, a B in Literature, and As everywhere else. But in Freshman year of college, I'm gonna work harder then I am working now. It's not that I'm deciding what med school to apply to, it's how to prepare myself for what is coming. But like you said, I would worry about that when I'm in Davis or whatever 4-year college I get into. Is there anything I can do to kind of help my chances now or no? I just gotta wait?

 

[jlescher]

In my opinion AP classes are probably going to make the biggest difference. I took science AP classes and also retook the subjects in college. The early exposure to more difficult concepts, and those reiterated in college courses allowed me to do well in college without studying as much. This allowed me to spend more time focusing on research and taking heavier course loads.

It seems like all of the UC schools are well respected and desirable for obvious life style reasons. UC Riverside is new. University of Washington is also a phenomenal school in that region.

 

[jlescher]

You could also start volunteering at a clinic now. The longer you're there, the more responsibility the doctors and staff will give you later during college. Assuming you continue to work there during undergrad. Even if you don't stay in the area, the experience can't hurt.

 

[Tigrane]

You could also start volunteering at a clinic now. The longer you're there, the more responsibility the doctors and staff will give you later during college. Assuming you continue to work there during undergrad. Even if you don't stay in the area, the experience can't hurt.

Well, I am taking Chem Honors next year which is the highest level class, then Physiology and then probably AP Biology or something AP. But I can volunteer at a clinic now, at 15? Where are you in this whole process?

 

[jlescher]

Well, I am taking Chem Honors next year which is the highest level class, then Physiology and then probably AP Biology or something AP. But I can volunteer at a clinic now, at 15? Where are you in this whole process?

There are things they would let you do. Some hospitals have a day care center to give parents a break. They might let you hang out with the kids. Just call and ask. Be open to doing anything they will let you do. Even if it's not medically relevant you might meet some doctors and/or get a perspective on what families go through when they have a sick child.
I'm currently a researcher at the NIH and I'll be starting med school this fall. If you look below my username you'll see a link called "MD apps". If you click that it has a summery of my application info. A lot of people on SDN have them.

 

[Tigrane]

Which Medical Schools were you accepted to and which one are you going to?

 

[jlescher]

It's all listed in my MD apps. You need to be on a computer for the link to show up. It won't be there if you are on a phone. I'm going to the U of Wisconsin. It's highly ranked and tuition is very cheap relatively speaking.

I had the great misfortune of applying twice. The first time I interviewed at UCSD, U of MN, and U of WI. All of them wait listed me. They told me it was because I lacked clinical experience which I did (only 20 hrs shadowing an ortho surgeon). None of them would accept updates even though I had drastically increased that aspect of my app over the year. I thought my research would carry me and it did to a point, but when it came time to accept me they were all apprehensive. I reapplied this year with the new expeince on my app, got 5 interviews right away and was accepted on the first day schools were allowed to notify applicants of acceptances (Oct 15). Moral of the story: clinical experience is a must!

 

[Tigrane]

Thank you for giving me all this information, it will certainly help in the future! And after realizing you had not done quite enough clinical experience, quite a bit, no? And during the interviews, is it that they question you on your resumé, or ask you their own questions? Also, I did take a look at your MD application, I don't actually have a smart phone type thing, and there is so much that you did. How long did it take? And would speaking another language fluently help in any way?

 

[jlescher]

No problem. To be honest I probably did more research than I had to and not enough clinical activity if all I was going for was an acceptance. However, admissions committees tend to see through "belt notchers" and "box checkers" so don't just do things to get into med school. You want to do some volunteer work, clinical experience, and research but try to stick with one or two activities in each category for a while so you get some substantial experience. It's better to have 6 things on your app that you did for years than it is to have 20 things you did for a month at a time, if that makes sense.

Interestingly enough I knew a fair amount about medicine the first time I applied and I had great interviews where we discussed different aspects of medicine. After not getting off the WLs, I contacting my interviewers and they said they wrote me strong recommendations. I think the admissions committees were just apprehensive because I didm;t have the tangible experiences and hours to put on paper. One aspect of the process I learned about during the cycle was that interviewers are not on the admissions committee. Basically, they talk to you for an hour and write another letter of recommendation endorsing you or not.

It does take a long time. That's why I said you should focus on grades and having fun right now. You will apply 7 years from now at the earliest. That's half of the time you've existed!!!

I double majored and lived in CO for a semester so I graduated when I was 23. I've worked at NIH for almost 3 years so I'm now 26. The average matriculant is 24 and theres a reason for that. Lots of people don't get in the first time or they take gap years. I wash't sure if I was going to do an MD or an MD/Phd. That's why I took time off after undergrad.

Speaking another language will certainly help- especially spanish, but a lot of people have that on their app.

You can learn a lot from reading these forums. Just understand that people tend to be pretty neurotic on here. Most people on here are also above average applicants/might make things up. It's the internet, take it with a grain of salt. You can also find great info at the American Association of Medical Colleges web site.

 

[Tigrane]

So the plan is to focus on my grades for now, focus on getting into UC Davis (Or a similar school) then focus on doing extra curricular things like volunteer and research at hospitals and stuff to make a better application. (Will going to a community college first, if I do, effect me getting into Med School in any way?) I'm trying to make some sort of plan, it makes it much easier for me to know what I'm going to do in the future, like what I need to do. And what is the difference between an MD and MD/Phd? I know some specialties are easier than others, but since my understanding of each is basic, so would this maybe change the difficulty of later on, if you understand?

 

[jlescher]

Yeah that's pretty much it. Nothing you really do now has any bearing on med school or your career. When you apply, the instructions specifically ask you to describe your experiences from the beginning of college onward.

Some med schools will accept CC credits, some won't. I wouldn't take science classes at a CC. They aren't as rigorous and med schools know that.

An MD/PhD is a 7-8 year program were you get both degrees. People who get those tend to work in academic medicine or focus there efforts on medical research (80% of their time on research 20% on patients). Google it. There are tons or explanations about it.

No medical school in the country will close any doors for you. You can go into any type of medicine you want. However, the quality of the school will influence were you do your residency. Go to one of the top 30-40 schools and it's then up to how smart you are and how well you interact with the people evaluating you. You don;t need to worry about any of this stuff at this point. You will be guided through all of it during undergrad. There are advisors at places like Davis who devote all of there time to helping pre meds get into school.

 

[Tigrane]

And the difficulty of an acceptance, if you were to compare the maybe 10th best school to the 30 or 40th, would there be a big difference?

 

[Tigrane]

And what do you mean by that?

*Accepts brownie for crushed dream*

 

[jlescher]

And the difficulty of an acceptance, if you were to compare the maybe 10th best school to the 30 or 40th, would there be a big difference?

Almost impossible to say. The average person applies to 15-20 schools and gets into 1 or 2(their state school). About 40% of applicants are accepted to 1 or more schools. If you are a rock star applicant and you get into a "10" let's say, odds are you will get rejected by 4 other schools ranked lower. It's a very random process. It's very frustrating and you will never know the answer to this question. All you can do is set yourself up as a competitive applicant and let the chips fall as they may.

If you're talking about the most competitive applicants we can look at rough numbers. Top 10 schools with class sizes of 100-200. 50,000 applicants. When you apply, ask yourself, "Am I one of the best 2,000 applicants in a pool of 50,000?"

 

[Tigrane]

That seems really weird how they make the choices. Well I guess whatever happens, happens. THanks a lot!

 

[jlescher]

It is weird. The average school get 5-7,000 apps. 3-4,000 are probably pretty good applicants. They interview about 500 for a class of 150. You can see how the selection of those 150 can get pretty subjective and random. But yeah, that's med school for you. Good luck!

 

[Tigrane]

Thanks a lot! Good luck where you're going!

 

[SweetBurger]

Chemistry is hard for most people first time around. What was your math level? Chemistry is highly correlated to math abilities.

Honestly, if your goal is pre-med, I wouldn't sweat it about ivy league or school name. Your main concern is grades and MCAT, followed by EC. If you get into a highly competitive school, you may not be able to keep up, and that'll be it (or spend money and do a post bac)

You can sleep through AP chem and get a good grade. It has nothing to do with how good you are at math.

 

[jlescher]

You can sleep through AP chem and get a good grade. It has nothing to do with how good you are at math.

Depends on how hard your AP chem class was and how deep it went. Have you taken second semester inorganic chem in college? It's not that hard, but it's all math. Equilibriums, rates, and buffers!

 

[mizzu]

You can sleep through AP chem and get a good grade. It has nothing to do with how good you are at math.

No AP Chemistry/general chemistry has a very strong correlation with math abilities. If you cannot solve for x, or if you get confused with algebra... how can you manipulate variables? How can you solve for ideal gas laws? How can you solve for stoich? Kinetics (first/second/third, differentiated vs integrated rate laws??) - while you do not need to know "calculus" for AP chem, it certainly helps to explain how those "mysterious" and "funky" equations came about.