PhD/PsyD Graduate Student Debt

[PinkPsych]

From today's Washington Post-- These 20 schools are responsible for a fifth of all graduate student debt. Noticing the ones that have PhD and PsyD programs in clinical psychology and other behavioral health related professions especially.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ible-for-a-fifth-of-all-graduate-school-debt/

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[eeaaagggllee]

Very disappointing list, but I don't think it shows the whole picutre. I would like to see stats on the top institutions with students that default on their loans -- this would be more meaningful.

 

[PinkPsych]

Are you suggesting that the volume of loans (or profit made by the institutions) is inconsequential if the loans were repaid? This article and the list do not discuss or compare student loan default rates at all, although I don't think that information is entirely irrelevant. However, I feel that this list is a gross distortion of what graduate education and professional training is about. It is hard to swallow that only three medical schools are represented on the list, still the total debt amount is staggering.

I am interested in hearing why you feel the default rates are more meaningful.

 

[Justanothergrad]

I think that the number of loans taken is a meaningful number, but I am also interested in the ability to repay it. If you go to NYU (picked a random one from the list) and get out in a position that affords you the ability to pay for your lifestyle, not-default, and exit the debt in a reasonable time, then I have no problem with the school accounting for large portions of debt. However, if you are shackled by an exit salary that doesn't match the debt and leaves you with a lifetime of debt payments, then there is an issue.

 

[chicandtoughness]

Not surprised at the list. Lots of for-profit schools with poor completion rates.. I have a horror story of a friend at Capella whose advisors kept her for an additional 2 years after she had completed her dissertation... he just kept asking her to revise again and again even though he had previously told her she was ready to defend. That's a lot of money to pay just so you can sit and write.......

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I think a clear connection is the push for online degrees (due to less overhead, looser standards, etc) and also the disconnect between cost and payoff. Removing the medical schools, which arguably could produce sufficient earning potential to outweigh the massive debt, the rest of the programs are high cost (including cost of living) and/or not providing degrees where debt can be easily managed.

I'd also add that a large % of "GI Bill" $$ go to online/for-profit businesses…errr…."programs". It'd be even uglier if those monies were included in the WP chart.

 

[chicandtoughness]

Also realized this was aggregate volume and not a per-person average. Naturally for-profit colleges are going to have a ton of student loan debt - they accept anyone and everyone, and most people turn to online college because they're not financially stable enough to quit a full-time job for school. Hence, gigantic volumes of people who NEED aid.

The numbers would be more revealing on a per-person basis along with an N for how many are taking out loans...

 

[eeaaagggllee]

Are you suggesting that the volume of loans (or profit made by the institutions) is inconsequential if the loans were repaid? This article and the list do not discuss or compare student loan default rates at all, although I don't think that information is entirely irrelevant. However, I feel that this list is a gross distortion of what graduate education and professional training is about. It is hard to swallow that only three medical schools are represented on the list, still the total debt amount is staggering.

I am interested in hearing why you feel the default rates are more meaningful.

No not at all. I believe that the information is relevant, and I agree that loans in general are problematic especially for for-profits where the value of the return for your education will not be commensurate to the loans taken, and the amount of profit made by the institution is also incommensurate to the sub-par education one may be receiving. I second what you say about the distortion of the meaning and value of graduateedication and professional training as I believe that the definition of value should extend beyond fiscal return especially for professions such as psychology. However, in the case of a list like this, I feel that default rates would be more(?) (equally?) meaningful. With graduate education where the subsequent profession/career has the capacity to repay the loans (i.e., where debt to salary ratio is less), the amount of loans taken out just as a singular point of reference does not provide an accurate picture of the value of the education since there is a return. The worst offenders for me would be institutions who are 1. Allowing students to take on massive amounts of loans, and 2. Cannot provide excellent training/education that will prepare the student taking on the loans for a career that can support said loans (in the case of clinical psychology, at the bare minimum this would be internship match rates and EPPP pass rates).

 

[eeaaagggllee]

As an aside and probably not the right thread -- can someone explain to me how one can get a doctorate in clinical psychology from an online program? How did APA allow this to happen? Was there even an uproar when this started happening?

 

[smalltownpsych]

Student loan debt is Housing Bubble 2.0 Anytime it becomes too easy to borrow money, people will take advantage of the situation. In the housing bubble it was the liars loans and the finance and real estate industry made billions off of it. Now it is the finance industry and the universities. Hmmm, what is the common denominator? Oh well, this stuff is too complicated for the average online MA student to think about. maybe they should just focus on buying cheap gadgets made in China at their local Walmart while they get their free healthcare. Stuff is the new opiate of the masses.

 

[deleted343839]

Holy cow, look at how Walden pulls away from the pack! That's a lot of money for a lot of worthless degrees!!! And I see that Argosy gets an "honorable mention" in the footnote.

And as we await APA's response... ** crickets chirping **

 

[chicandtoughness]

As an aside and probably not the right thread -- can someone explain to me how one can get a doctorate in clinical psychology from an online program? How did APA allow this to happen? Was there even an uproar when this started happening?

APA has no jurisdiction over who uses the "clinical psychology" moniker. These programs just aren't accredited, and in some states, APA accredition has no bearing on licensure.

 

[Goobernut]

Student loan debt is Housing Bubble 2.0 Anytime it becomes too easy to borrow money, people will take advantage of the situation.

I say this all the time. I have several classmates who are in 150K in debt from just general state universities (or a combo of private and public) because they got a bachelor's and then a master's and took as much as they were allowed. I wholly believe the for-profits are the ones mainly taking advantage of the bubble, but it really is going on at all levels of education. I am literally having heart palpitations thinking of having this much debt and my job prospects starting at 40-50K a year. I just... need to go watch some progressive relaxation videos... Or do some yoga.

If I went to medical school, wouldn't have a problem with the 150K... that idea does not give me the jitters.

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

Oh look. Midwestern is on the list. Imagine that.

 

[Chalupacabra]

I have several classmates who are in 150K in debt from just general state universities (or a combo of private and public)

This is another problem-even state schools are becoming prohibitively expensive in some places. I earned around 40k in scholarships and still graduated with substantial debt from my UG program (a private school that ended up being cheaper than most state schools in my area because of said scholarships).

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Holy cow, look at how Walden pulls away from the pack! That's a lot of money for a lot of worthless degrees!!! And I see that Argosy gets an "honorable mention" in the footnote.

And as we await APA's response... ** crickets chirping **

I'm surprised that those 'programs' didn't offer specializations in 'sleep deprivation,' 'enhanced interrogation techniques,' or (along the lines of The Spanish Inquisitors in Monty Python skits) 'extended stays in The Comfy Chair' techniques. I wouldn't be surprised to find an association between slipshod training institutions and graduates who lack ethical discernment. Apparently APA is too busy making headlines pertaining to certain high-ranking officials collaborating with CIA torture projects and getting paid huge consulting fees in the process.

 

[Lurking Oracle]

It is hard to swallow that only three medical schools are represented on the list, still the total debt amount is staggering.

My guess is that the numbers from NYU, Georgetown, and USC probably include their medical schools (and Nova has a D.O. program). Also, keep in mind that even though most med students take on astronomical levels of debt, there are still relatively few of them compared to all of those traditional brick-and-mortar undergrads/non-MD grad students, and the zillions of starry-eyed hopefuls that mistakenly believe that an overpriced (and IMHO useless) online degree is all they need to whisk them from the Wal-Mart break-room to the Wall Street boardroom.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

A bulk of Nova is made up of professional programs (e.g. medicine, dental, optometry, psychology, pharmacy, etc.). This article essentially umbrella all graduate programs and generalized it to people seeking master's degrees and minimizing their potential return on many of the programs.

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

A bulk of Nova is made up of professional programs (e.g. medicine, dental, optometry, psychology, pharmacy, etc.). This article essentially umbrella all graduate programs and generalized it to people seeking master's degrees and minimizing their potential return on many of the programs.

Midwestern was a similar school as well (bulk of programs are professional in nature), however I can tell you they very much ran on the For-Profit model. They took in as much tuition and put forth little in the way of education. However Nova seems to have a much better reputation on here and elsewhere.