GREAT CAUTION for those intending to do med in Australia

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MHDaren

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Hi everyone,

I am an international student currently doing graduate-entry medical programme in the New South Wales, Australia.

The current policy from NSW Health Education and Training Institute makes it extremely difficult for international students to obtain training positions after graduation. For 2013, there are 894 internship positions for 888 local students and 152 international students graduating in NSW this year. Mostly likely, international students will NOT get a job because all the priorities are given to local students. It is also not promising for those wishing to do internship in other states because priorities will be given to local graduates as well.

You are at your own risk if you still choose to come over here to do a medical degree, which is both expensive and unpromising, ending up jobless in this country. Of course the internship issue will not be a big deal for those that wish go to back to their own country for training.

A few important issues I'd like to list here just for the information.

• The tuition fee for 2012 in the MBBS program in the University of Sydney is about AUD$60,000 (1 AUD ~ 1 USD) and it increases by 10% annually. (some variations in different universities of course) This is not easily affordable for every family.

• No internship placement after graduation, meaning you have to go to other countries to seek training positions. This is very difficult as well since priorities are always given to locally-trained students.

• Australian government have been increasing the numbers of international students vastly in the recent years to boost the "Education Industry".

• Discrimination issues towards non-white immigrants.

Everyone wishes things could change in the next few years but definitely there is no guarantee.

Personally I do not suggest coming over here to do med and be honest, I do regret making the decision to do my medical degree in Australia. I am now disappointed and frustrated. I hope you guys can obtain the information and make judgment yourselves. Although I am not criticising the quality of education, but it may not be worth it since you spent 1/4 of a million dollars on this degree and all the hard work and in the end, you become jobless.

This is the end of the story. Anyone who has opinions or more information to share are welcome to post here.

P.S. I have attached the 2013 priority list in NSW just for the reference. Don't just listen to what the university recruiting staff say or whatever news released by Australian publications. They are there to convince you to donate money to their country but do not care much about your future career.

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Great post. I'd just like to point out that things are not as grim in South Australia and Western Australia because they did not go hog wild on enrolling tons of international students that they don't have internship positions for. During my interview for Flinders (which is in South Australia) they told me that last year every international grad who wanted an internship spot got one and that according to their calculations this should continue although no guarantees. The schools in South Australia are not increasing the number of spots and therefore things should not get worse except if many domestic grads from different provinces want to do their internship in South Australia.

Overall the priorities for internships go like this:

1. Domestic grads within the province from which they graduated.
2. Domestic grads outside the province from which they graduated.
3. International grads within the province from which they graduated.
4. International grads outside the province from which they graduated.

International graduates from NSW will not be able to compete for spots in SA with international graduates from SA because they will always be ranked as lower priority.

I think it is pretty cynical of some of these schools to be doing this. I am not going to Australia for school but if I did I would only go to South Australia or Western Australia.
 
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Hi everyone,

I am an international student currently doing graduate-entry medical programme in the New South Wales, Australia.

The current policy from NSW Health Education and Training Institute makes it extremely difficult for international students to obtain training positions after graduation. For 2013, there are 894 internship positions for 888 local students and 152 international students graduating in NSW this year. Mostly likely, international students will NOT get a job because all the priorities are given to local students. It is also not promising for those wishing to do internship in other states because priorities will be given to local graduates as well.

You are at your own risk if you still choose to come over here to do a medical degree, which is both expensive and unpromising, ending up jobless in this country. Of course the internship issue will not be a big deal for those that wish go to back to their own country for training.

A few important issues I'd like to list here just for the information.

• The tuition fee for 2012 in the MBBS program in the University of Sydney is about AUD$60,000 (1 AUD ~ 1 USD) and it increases by 10% annually. (some variations in different universities of course) This is not easily affordable for every family.

• No internship placement after graduation, meaning you have to go to other countries to seek training positions. This is very difficult as well since priorities are always given to locally-trained students.

• Australian government have been increasing the numbers of international students vastly in the recent years to boost the "Education Industry".

• Discrimination issues towards non-white immigrants.

Everyone wishes things could change in the next few years but definitely there is no guarantee.

Personally I do not suggest coming over here to do med and be honest, I do regret making the decision to do my medical degree in Australia. I am now disappointed and frustrated. I hope you guys can obtain the information and make judgment yourselves. Although I am not criticising the quality of education, but it may not be worth it since you spent 1/4 of a million dollars on this degree and all the hard work and in the end, you become jobless.

This is the end of the story. Anyone who has opinions or more information to share are welcome to post here.

P.S. I have attached the 2013 priority list in NSW just for the reference. Don't just listen to what the university recruiting staff say or whatever news released by Australian publications. They are there to convince you to donate money to their country but do not care much about your future career.

Thanks to both of you for this information. Do either of you--or does anyone else--know about the situation in Queensland for international grads trying to get residencies in the province or in other provinces in AU?
 
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MHDaren, I see you haven't been on the forums for very long. Did you not understand the situation when you applied to medical school? The issue has been discussed routinely since 2003, but yes, each year there is much angst about the impending effects on int'l students of the med student tsunami here. Each year the problem has come closer to a head, but at the same time, each year the problem has not approached the fears. I can't count the number of times that claims have been made that "this* is the year the intl's get screwed, "and here are the numbers", but each year that day has been postponed.

Queensland is the other state that will first reach capacity. I've lost track of the numbers, but I've found the numbers are meaningless anyway -- Qld Health changes its numbers right up to (and in some cases during) the intern ballot, not to mention the difficulty with trying to estimate how many students will go to another state, often at the last minute. Last I heard the current final year med students should be fine here in Qld, but as with any other year, looking ahead is futile unless you just want to pull your hair out from anxiety. Even in my class at UQ, the int'ls going back to 2004 assumed they would not be able to stay. Every year since has assumed the same, which is probably the healthiest approach, but so far at least, we've gotten to stay.

At any rate, yes, everyone on the forums figures out very quickly that they should assume they will not be able to stay in Australia after graduating, but they just might be pleasantly surprised.
 
Can you elaborate more on what types of discrimination issues you refer to? Do non-white students experience blunt or subtle discrimination and from whom/in what settings?
 
MHDaren, I see you haven't been on the forums for very long. Did you not understand the situation when you applied to medical school? The issue has been discussed routinely since 2003, but yes, each year there is much angst about the impending effects on int'l students of the med student tsunami here. Each year the problem has come closer to a head, but at the same time, each year the problem has not approached the fears. I can't count the number of times that claims have been made that "this* is the year the intl's get screwed, "and here are the numbers", but each year that day has been postponed.

Queensland is the other state that will first reach capacity. I've lost track of the numbers, but I've found the numbers are meaningless anyway -- Qld Health changes its numbers right up to (and in some cases during) the intern ballot, not to mention the difficulty with trying to estimate how many students will go to another state, often at the last minute. Last I heard the current final year med students should be fine here in Qld, but as with any other year, looking ahead is futile unless you just want to pull your hair out from anxiety. Even in my class at UQ, the int'ls going back to 2004 assumed they would not be able to stay. Every year since has assumed the same, which is probably the healthiest approach, but so far at least, we've gotten to stay.

At any rate, yes, everyone on the forums figures out very quickly that they should assume they will not be able to stay in Australia after graduating, but they just might be pleasantly surprised.
Hi pitman,

Right, I got the information before I joined the medical school. However, during the information session, everyone was reassured that the situation would be fine when the we would graduate. I was such an idiot to believe what they told us. Thank you for all the advice. Maybe we should just leave it there first and try not to worry. Anyway, anxiety will not help in whatever way.

BTW, did you get your residency in Queensland right after you graduated in UQ?

Cheers,

Daren
 
Can you elaborate more on what types of discrimination issues you refer to? Do non-white students experience blunt or subtle discrimination and from whom/in what settings?
Hi Voxer,

Sometimes it can be blunt. I heard one guy in my cohort calling himself "more evolutionarily advanced" than the Indians and called an Indian background guy "nigra". These are not the really serious issues however, since most people will just let it go even if they are offended.

The thing that actually concerns is the employment bias. Check out google for those news. The situations may be different among the states. Some people say, NSW is by far the best. I am not sure about that, since **** things still happen here. However, one girl in my tutorial group does come from Melbourne and she said she could never make it to find a job as a doctor in future in Victoria.

The discrimination issue is well known here. However, most people are still fine. Therefore no need to worry too much and this is not the major concern for me at all. I am Asian by the way.
 
Agree with Pitman. If you came to Aus, you were agreeing to the fact that there is a risk (a high one) that you would not get an internship. Saying you believed what they told you on orientation day is moot, you would have accepted the internship risk before they said that anyways, and in that respect signed off on your future they day you paid your deposit.

I am not doubting the possibility of racism, but I personally HATE the excuse of "i couldn't get a job because of my race". I have come across too many people from an ethnic background, that even I as a coloured person would not offer a job to because they are arrogant, ignorant, annoying, lack social graces, the list goes on. You will come across racism regardless of the counter you're in. I grew up in Canada, one of the most multicultural places I've ever known and every now and then you deal with it.

Finally the internship situation. What's the point in stressing? Unless you are in your 4th year there is almost nothing you can do about it now. Do your best, ace your exams and try and head back to your home country as a first resort (unless things with the internship change between now and then). At the end of the day you are graduating from a first world country with a world class education. Tell me you honestly believe you will be unemployed....
 
The discrimination issue is well known here. However, most people are still fine. Therefore no need to worry too much and this is not the major concern for me at all. I am Asian by the way.

Thank you MHDaren for sharing your experience.
 
Agree with Pitman. If you came to Aus, you were agreeing to the fact that there is a risk (a high one) that you would not get an internship. Saying you believed what they told you on orientation day is moot, you would have accepted the internship risk before they said that anyways, and in that respect signed off on your future they day you paid your deposit.

I am not doubting the possibility of racism, but I personally HATE the excuse of "i couldn't get a job because of my race". I have come across too many people from an ethnic background, that even I as a coloured person would not offer a job to because they are arrogant, ignorant, annoying, lack social graces, the list goes on. You will come across racism regardless of the counter you're in. I grew up in Canada, one of the most multicultural places I've ever known and every now and then you deal with it.

Finally the internship situation. What's the point in stressing? Unless you are in your 4th year there is almost nothing you can do about it now. Do your best, ace your exams and try and head back to your home country as a first resort (unless things with the internship change between now and then). At the end of the day you are graduating from a first world country with a world class education. Tell me you honestly believe you will be unemployed....

Nice comment, Rayjay. Your points are quite right. Excellence will beat all discriminative factors, let it be racism or being an international.

Personally I may be biased, but the purpose of this post is just to help others understand the situation. No international students were told in the first place that for sure there would be training positions available, and instead it was said that "things could improve over the next few years and when you graduate things might just turn out better… although there is no guarantee." Some might have mis-interpreted the information, however.

As I said, the racism issue is really not the concern. I lived in a country where discrimination is insidious. Frankly speaking, Australia is doing all right on it.

For future applicants, do take into consideration all the aspects you can think of before making the decision. Perhaps I was not smart enough to get a detailed picture but I wish I can help those who seek information from this forum.
 
BTW, did you get your residency in Queensland right after you graduated in UQ?
Yes. I've been out 5 years and am now an advanced GP Proceduralist registrar. Obviously, I've enjoyed a system that allows one to fart around for a while before deciding on a specialty :p
 
Yes. I've been out 5 years and am now an advanced GP Proceduralist registrar. Obviously, I've enjoyed a system that allows one to fart around for a while before deciding on a specialty :p

Pittman.
You too were an international student? I am not sure if you were clear on that in the first comment you made.

Where did you do you residency?
 
Australia. I've posted many times since 2012 (this thread is REALLLLLY dated), look around for many answers to your questions...
 
I'm actually glad this thread is around. Even though I don't agree with all the points, but I can see a healthy discussion that occurred anyway.

Making the point because I've lost track of the number of times current international medical students in Australia had little idea about the risks until they actually started studies.

They should know better about the risks, which is one thing. However, many are still coming out of undergrad a bit naive, in their early to mid twenties that they don't actually have a good grasp of those risks. So many just take at face value what recruitment agencies like Oztrekkk or med schools tell them, not factoring in where the information is coming from.

Many schools and med school recruitment agencies probably extol the virtues far more than warning students about risks. Which makes sense, it wouldn't make them very marketable or make great business sense - considering education is Australia's largest export, I'll call it business. Have also lost track of the number of times that schools have said everyone gets a job eventually, without saying how hard they worked towards that end goal and how little advisement they offered on the job process or arranging say electives.

If it's too good to be true, it probably is. it's not to say the job situation is dire, although sometimes I wonder if it will become that way, but it's exactly fun right now either. This thread started in 2012, and it's still not exactly hunky dory now. Some of my classmates were pretty bitter or disillusioned, others were not. (Depends on how much risk they were exposed to early on and how much they were willing living with).

I hope more bright young applicants do more active research & discussions on which schools and states they apply to, prior to investing so much money. Sometimes I wonder if it doesn't feel anomalous to a get rich quick scheme, only one based on dreams. eek.

So few look at their long term prospects as well, almost as if to think that you come out of med school being a fully qualified doctor, but that's just the beginning to something else really. I bet a small percentage of applicants and first year students actually know what's involved in the Australian vocational training process after grad.
 
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