Harvard Cambridge Thoughts and Concerns

learn how to start a private practice
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
R

rss56

New Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2010
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
I'm just about down with the interview trail and Cambridge is pretty up on my list. I love their community commitment, the warmth of the PDs and residents, and commitment to education. Even the area around Cambridge looks like a nice place to live.

Though, I wanted to see what thoughts people had on it.

Here are my concerns:

-Unlike many of the other places I have been to, I wonder if it's a more limited experience. No private psych hospital (Sheppard Pratt, Butler etc), no VA, no tertiary Care center. At the same time, there patient population is diverse and what does tertiary care have to do with psychiatry anyway?

-Is Cambridge to Harvard analogous to as St lukes is to Columbia or Beth Israel is to Einstein. Those are both great programs but they seem very separate from the main medical school. Or Is Harvard just odd and has several main Psychiatry residency programs?

-I have interviewed at "big name" places like Columbia. Columbia is very impressive... well-balanced, lots of big research going on, impressive faculties... Most importantly, the Columbia residents seem to write their own ticket when they graduate. At the same time, I just felt like Cambridge has such a nice warm supportive feel that I did not get at Columbia. Am I being foolish giving up bigger name places? Will I not be in the same running as the Columbia grads come fellowship/job search time?

Appreciate any comments and thoughts!
Members don't see this ad.
 
rss56 said:
I'm just about down with the interview trail and Cambridge is pretty up on my list. I love their community commitment, the warmth of the PDs and residents, and commitment to education. Even the area around Cambridge looks like a nice place to live.

Though, I wanted to see what thoughts people had on it.

Here are my concerns:

-Unlike many of the other places I have been to, I wonder if it's a more limited experience. No private psych hospital (Sheppard Pratt, Butler etc), no VA, no tertiary Care center. At the same time, there patient population is diverse and what does tertiary care have to do with psychiatry anyway?

-Is Cambridge to Harvard analogous to as St lukes is to Columbia or Beth Israel is to Einstein. Those are both great programs but they seem very separate from the main medical school. Or Is Harvard just odd and has several main Psychiatry residency programs?

-I have interviewed at "big name" places like Columbia. Columbia is very impressive... well-balanced, lots of big research going on, impressive faculties... Most importantly, the Columbia residents seem to write their own ticket when they graduate. At the same time, I just felt like Cambridge has such a nice warm supportive feel that I did not get at Columbia. Am I being foolish giving up bigger name places? Will I not be in the same running as the Columbia grads come fellowship/job search time?

Appreciate any comments and thoughts!
Click to expand...

1. I don't know that the lack of a private site will hamper your education all that much. Not having a VA site is kind of a loss, partly because I think that all physician trainees should have some sort of experience in caring for the country's vets, and partly because vets are such a unique population. That being said, the CHA patient population is quite unique and diverse. It's not as if your patient population is going to be limited to Palo Alto residents.

b. The fact that CHA is not a tertiary care center will mainly affect your C-L experience. Not a big loss in my opinion but I'm sure many on the board would disagree.

c. The program director, Marshall Forstein, is awesome.

d. Area around Cambridge is a great place to live. Damn expensive.

2. You really shouldn't think of these programs (MGH, Longwood, CHA) as being "Harvard" programs. These are separate hospitals with a Harvard affiliation. It's not as if the MGH faculty are 'cousins' with the BWH/BI/CHA faculty -- with some pockets of exceptions, there is very little crosstalk between the different sites. As long as you don't match to South Shore, you'll be fine. With regards to HMS, all of the sites are engaged in teaching medical students.

3. CHA grads do just fine in the job/fellowship market. I wouldn't worry about it.

-AT.
 
I'm not into consult. so I guess that's not biggie. The VA thing I guess is a drawback.

On the Harvard program thing... Sounds like you are saying that there isn't really any "main" Harvard program? Harvard operates on a different sort of system? I just don't want to be at the bastard child program. :)


atsai3 said:
1. I don't know that the lack of a private site will hamper your education all that much. Not having a VA site is kind of a loss, partly because I think that all physician trainees should have some sort of experience in caring for the country's vets, and partly because vets are such a unique population. That being said, the CHA patient population is quite unique and diverse. It's not as if your patient population is going to be limited to Palo Alto residents.

b. The fact that CHA is not a tertiary care center will mainly affect your C-L experience. Not a big loss in my opinion but I'm sure many on the board would disagree.

c. The program director, Marshall Forstein, is awesome.

d. Area around Cambridge is a great place to live. Damn expensive.

2. You really shouldn't think of these programs (MGH, Longwood, CHA) as being "Harvard" programs. These are separate hospitals with a Harvard affiliation. It's not as if the MGH faculty are 'cousins' with the BWH/BI/CHA faculty -- with some pockets of exceptions, there is very little crosstalk between the different sites. As long as you don't match to South Shore, you'll be fine. With regards to HMS, all of the sites are engaged in teaching medical students.

3. CHA grads do just fine in the job/fellowship market. I wouldn't worry about it.

-AT.
Click to expand...
 
Members don't see this ad :)
rss56 said:
On the Harvard program thing... Sounds like you are saying that there isn't really any "main" Harvard program?
Click to expand...

The Harvardness of these great programs is irrelevant to their greatness. Forgive the hyperbolic sexism for sake of a bad analogy, but you're basically walking into the playboy mansion and finding yourself deciding between the blonde, the brunette, and the redhead.

(MGH, Longwood, and CHA, in that order I believe) ;)
 
So you can study at three places at the same time....sounds good...
 
billypilgrim37 said:
The Harvardness of these great programs is irrelevant to their greatness. Forgive the hyperbolic sexism for sake of a bad analogy, but you're basically walking into the playboy mansion and finding yourself deciding between the blonde, the brunette, and the redhead.

(MGH, Longwood, and CHA, in that order I believe) ;)
Click to expand...

The question then is, is MGH a natural blonde? Or do people think MGH is blonde because MGH spends a lot of time at the beauty salon working on its image?
 
Why has Harvard South Shore been entirely excluded? Is it really that bad? The residents in the program seem very bright and work very hard.
 
I often wonder that too. I did not look at it, but whenever people talk about the three harvard programs... well they only mention three...

I thought cambridge was the odd one "rebel" or redhead of the bunch since its the more community social active program. What's south shore's deal?

KeyLime said:
Why has Harvard South Shore been entirely excluded? Is it really that bad? The residents in the program seem very bright and work very hard.
Click to expand...
 
rss56 said:
I often wonder that too. I did not look at it, but whenever people talk about the three harvard programs... well they only mention three...

I thought cambridge was the odd one "rebel" or redhead of the bunch since its the more community social active program. What's south shore's deal?
Click to expand...

I'm not really sure; I didn't interview there. However, from what I understand, South Shore is based out of the VA in Brockton and so I would imagine that these two things make it a less desirable residency (Brockton isn't that bad, but it's also not Boston).

The residents are mostly IMG's, which isn't to say that they're not bright but their demographics contrast starkly to other highly competitive programs, where IMG's/FMG's/DO residents are the exception rather than the rule.

Going back to your original post, if there's one thing that I've discovered during the interview trail (and I may be wrong), but there are just so many great programs out there to choose from-- however, they all have very different cultures and flavors to them. I would say that MGH/McLean and Cambridge are two very different programs that would offer fantastic training but the residents at Cambridge may not fit as well into the MGH program and may not thrive as well there.

There isn't any perfect program; the question is which is the best program for YOU? You're going to be there for the next four years and if you're miserable, then it's going to be a living hell. Where do you see yourself growing the most, being the most satisfied?
 
silas2642 said:
The residents are mostly IMG's, which isn't to say that they're not bright but their demographics contrast starkly to other highly competitive programs, where IMG's/FMG's/DO residents are the exception rather than the rule.

QUOTE]

Interesting how so many us allopathic MDs look down on DOs and IMGs who are also really bright and capable. Most of us, and I include myself here, were geeky nerds in HS and college who were looked down and shunned by the popular kids. Heck, the cute girls wouldn't touch most of us with a 10 foot pole. Guess nerds can discriminate too.
Click to expand...
 
HMSPSYCH said:
silas2642 said:
The residents are mostly IMG's, which isn't to say that they're not bright but their demographics contrast starkly to other highly competitive programs, where IMG's/FMG's/DO residents are the exception rather than the rule.

QUOTE]

Interesting how so many us allopathic MDs look down on DOs and IMGs who are also really bright and capable. Most of us, and I include myself here, were geeky nerds in HS and college who were looked down and shunned by the popular kids. Heck, the cute girls wouldn't touch most of us with a 10 foot pole. Guess nerds can discriminate too.
Click to expand...

I don't look down on IMG's; some of the best physicians I've met are IMG's. I do think, however, that a program's relative competitiveness can be assessed by the number of IMG's/DO's in it-- programs just tend to prefer allopathic AMG's, which I think is relatively fair. Osteopaths have their own residencies to fall back on and US citizens should get preference.
Click to expand...
 
Members don't see this ad :)
silas2642 said:
HMSPSYCH said:
I don't look down on IMG's; some of the best physicians I've met are IMG's. I do think, however, that a program's relative competitiveness can be assessed by the number of IMG's/DO's in it-- programs just tend to prefer allopathic AMG's, which I think is relatively fair. Osteopaths have their own residencies to fall back on and US citizens should get preference.
Click to expand...

I wasn't singling you out as lord knows how many others share the same opinion. However, the quality of each program should be based on the quality of their teachings and the quality of their graduates and not some superficial metric (where one went to school, residents appearances,etc). BTW-I've seen many of these 'desirable' residents who look great on paper make disastrous physicians. Programs should select PGYs based on their unique qualities and needs.

Point is, this common misperception is akin to judging a neighborhood sole on how many Caucasians are residents vs. other ethnic minorities. Or keeping Catholics or Irish American out of politics in the 60s.
Click to expand...
 
HMSPSYCH said:
silas2642 said:
I wasn't singling you out as lord knows how many others share the same opinion. However, the quality of each program should be based on the quality of their teachings and the quality of their graduates and not some superficial metric (where one went to school, residents appearances,etc). BTW-I've seen many of these 'desirable' residents who look great on paper make disastrous physicians. Programs should select PGYs based on their unique qualities and needs.

Point is, this common misperception is akin to judging a neighborhood sole on how many Caucasians are residents vs. other ethnic minorities. Or keeping Catholics or Irish American out of politics in the 60s.
Click to expand...

I would hope that by fourth year of medical school, most applicants understand the difference between a quality residency vs. a competitive residency. Certainly the two terms are not synonymous with each other.

However, if program A has all US allopathic students who all are graduated from top 20 instutions, then I'm going to think that the program is going to be more difficult to get into than program B, which may have a number of DO's and IMG's. There is no way to tell looking on paper whether program A is going to be better for me than program B, but I can tell that program A may be harder to match into.
Click to expand...
 
When I interviewed at CHA they showed a list of where there recent grads had gotten jobs - they pretty much wrote their own ticket.
 
billypilgrim37 said:
Though they might get a little nervous when they find out they have to see more than 2 patients in a day ;)
Click to expand...


Billy, does Harvard Cambridge have a reputation for residents not having enough patient load?
 
Goldenhair said:
Billy, does Harvard Cambridge have a reputation for residents not having enough patient load?
Click to expand...

That's not quite what I was getting at. Cambridge is a great program. There's nothing else like it. They do a lot of psychodynamic work with the sort of population that de facto does not have access to psychodynamic therapy. They spend a lot of time with each individual patient. I'm probably killing some details here, but I've been told by people who've visited there that they have a little kid unit where I'm pretty sure a resident only carries a load of 2-3. They spend most of the day with the patients and do play therapy. It's an awesome model, it's great learning, and while I think they do work less than at many other programs, it's not that they aren't working.

That said, how that sort of training prepares someone to be a "real psychiatrist" when they grow up isn't entirely clear to me, but I've never heard of a Cambridge grad having any trouble getting the job they wanted or struggling because of their unique training. It's a great program.
 
KeyLime said:
Why has Harvard South Shore been entirely excluded? Is it really that bad? The residents in the program seem very bright and work very hard.
Click to expand...

My only issue with South Shore was that it is incredibly VA-heavy . . . and VA-based, I believe. So if you like the VA population, it's fantastic. I've done half of my medical education at a VA so far and am looking for a residency where I can work with other populations.
 
Whoa there, don't dismiss Harvard South Shore so easily.

Remember, each Harvard psych program has its own flavor and recruitment pattern. Harvard South Shore intentionally recruits a percentage of FMGs and DOs, which make up roughly half of the resident population. They do this because their special mission is to select highly qualified candidates that will become global leaders in psychiatry. As such, they are less concerned with what school you trained at and more concerned about who you are as a person, what you did while in school, what you have accomplished thus far with your life, and whether or not you have what it takes to establish yourself as a future leader. Each year South Shore turns away many applicants from reputable US medical schools in order to recruit the people that better match up with what the program is specifically looking for. Of the successful applicants some end up being US grads, some are not. All are stellar candidates and compare well with the other Harvard psych residents by all meaningful metrics (including--but not limited to--test scores, number of research papers, awards and grants, prestigious fellowship programs, and faculty positions held by alumni).

And remember, all residents training at a Harvard program write their own tickets when they graduate, Cambridge and South Shore included. The South Shore residents are invited to every prestigious fellowship program in the country, including MGH, the Brigham, Children's Hospital Boston, Stanford, you name it. That is one of the perks to training at any Harvard program - opportunities and connections wherever you want to go afterward.

As an additional bonus: Harvard South Shore residents make approximately $6k more per year than the other Harvard programs. That's the beauty of getting paid by both Harvard Medical School and the VA system. :)

The Harvard South Shore residents spend approximately half their time at the Brockton VA (45 minutes south of Boston proper) and the rest of their time at other Harvard affiliated hospitals - more than enough exposure to all types and kinds of patients to emerge from training confident and competent to treat patients from all walks of life.

I interviewed at several of the other Harvard programs and most of the top programs on the East Coast and am glad I ranked Harvard South Shore number one.
 
Last edited:
thediamondmaker said:
Harvard South Shore intentionally recruits a percentage of FMGs and DOs, which make up roughly half of the resident population. They do this because their special mission is to select highly qualified candidates that will become global leaders in psychiatry.
Click to expand...

UCSF and MGH are also trying to create global leaders in psychiatry. They do not oversample FMGs & DOs in their selection pools.

-AT.
 
thediamondmaker said:
And remember, all residents training at a Harvard program write their own tickets when they graduate
Click to expand...

This isn't even in the neighborhood of true, even excluding South Shore. All residents that perform well at a Harvard program can find a job that meets their career goals. Simply having the word Harvard on your CV does not allow you to "write your own ticket," what is actually important is having Harvard faculty vouch for your performance and ability.
 
atsai3 said:
UCSF and MGH are also trying to create global leaders in psychiatry. They do not oversample FMGs & DOs in their selection pools.

-AT.
Click to expand...

The medical community is an international community. It would be a mistake to think that doctors with global leadership potential would primarily hale from the United States. A talented and ambitious foreign medical graduate would however be well served in their career goals to seek training in a US residency. Harvard South Shore welcomes those individuals, assuming they meet the program's high standards. This is not a case of oversampling, it is a case of undersampling on the part of other strong programs.
 
Doc Samson said:
This isn't even in the neighborhood of true, even excluding South Shore. All residents that perform well at a Harvard program can find a job that meets their career goals. Simply having the word Harvard on your CV does not allow you to "write your own ticket," what is actually important is having Harvard faculty vouch for your performance and ability.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Hard work and dedication to the field enable you to accomplish your goals. The Harvard system is merely a springboard for those who are motivated to achieve. One would hope that all Harvard affiliate programs attract a strongly motivated demographic, which is why so many graduates go on to do exciting things and prestigious fellowships.
 
I interviewed at several of the other Harvard programs and most of the top programs on the East Coast and am glad I ranked Harvard South Shore number one.[/QUOTE]


I interviewed at both Cambridge and Harvard South Shore. I found them to both be excellent programs of the same caliber, and with a lot of similarities. I did find the South Shore residents to be a warmer, friendlier group. And their vacation and benefits package can't be beat.

It's a lot cheaper to live around the South Shore area. If you choose Cambridge you will live in a much smaller, costlier apartment and make less money.
 
thediamondmaker said:
Whoa there, don't dismiss Harvard South Shore so easily.

I interviewed at several of the other Harvard programs and most of the top programs on the East Coast and am glad I ranked Harvard South Shore number one.
Click to expand...

Nice, informative post Diamondmaker.

I've supervised a few south shore, longwood, cambridge PGYs over the years and, with a few exceptions, I find many to be highly competent and well trained residents.

Not sure how the DOs fit in the global perspective though.
 
I don't doubt that South Shore residents get great training, but I think it's inaccurate to put South Shore on the same plane with Cambridge. Cambridge gets more Harvard grads than Longwood does, and I don't know that any Harvard grad has ever gone to South Shore. I say that not to be inflammatory, but I think it's an indicator of what most people have been saying here -- South Shore is the least competitive of the Harvard programs.

I agree that not all the the medical talent in the world is in the U.S. I have also heard that South Shore historically has gone after the best of the FMGs. I have met some of the South Shore residents and they seem very happy with the program, perhaps with the exception of all the driving they have to do between sites.
 
Doc Samson said:
I think the real issue here is identifying the residency equivalent of Beauxbatons - the wizarding school for cute blond women.
Click to expand...

Beauxbatons would have to be a California school, probably in the southern part of the state. :)

As far as the competitiveness discussion above: based on where people I know got (or, rather, didn't get) interviews, it seems that MGH, Cambridge, and Pittsburgh are the three most competitive programs in the country. At least for west coasters.
 
billypilgrim37 said:
The Harvardness of these great programs is irrelevant to their greatness. Forgive the hyperbolic sexism for sake of a bad analogy, but you're basically walking into the playboy mansion and finding yourself deciding between the blonde, the brunette, and the redhead.

(MGH, Longwood, and CHA, in that order I believe) ;)
Click to expand...

I know this thread is old, but I just noticed that nobody ever commented on where HSS fits into this analogy. I hope nobody says something like "Howard Wolowitz pretending to be the cable guy"...
 
thediamondmaker said:
Whoa there, don't dismiss Harvard South Shore so easily.

Remember, each Harvard psych program has its own flavor and recruitment pattern. Harvard South Shore intentionally recruits a percentage of FMGs and DOs, which make up roughly half of the resident population. Each year South Shore turns away many applicants from reputable US medical schools in order to recruit the people that better match up with what the program is specifically looking forI interviewed at several of the other Harvard programs and most of the top programs on the East Coast and am glad I ranked Harvard South Shore number one.
Click to expand...


lol...funniest stuff I've read all day.

Look, in the grand of scheme of things it doesn't really matter where one trains. You get to paid to see patients. That's the bottom line. Blue cross doesn't reimburse you more for that intake or 98205 because you went to Columbia vs South Shore. If you're good to work with and efficient at seeing patients, you're going to do well. If you're not, you're not going to do well.

That said, I wouldn't want to be at a community type program because I know the struggles even mid-tier(and some mid upper tier) university programs have to find good applicants and given that I don't want to even guess at what sort of quality candidates some of the less competitive uni programs and all community programs get.
 
shan564 said:
I know this thread is old, but I just noticed that nobody ever commented on where HSS fits into this analogy. I hope nobody says something like "Howard Wolowitz pretending to be the cable guy"...
Click to expand...

BillyPilgrim covered that in the Hogwarts sorting hat analogy in Post #24


[I just love SDN nostalgia...]
 
OldPsychDoc said:
BillyPilgrim covered that in the Hogwarts sorting hat analogy in Post #24


[I just love SDN nostalgia...]
Click to expand...

Ha, yeah, I found that afterwards. Interestingly enough, somebody actually made a comment about it at my HSS interview. Apparently, people actually read this stuff.
 
shan564 said:
Ha, yeah, I found that afterwards. Interestingly enough, somebody actually made a comment about it at my HSS interview. Apparently, people actually read this stuff.
Click to expand...

All this talk and I still can't figure HSS out. A mystery wrapped in a conundrum. My instinct is that it gets dumped on because it does indeed have the Harvard name, but people feel the need to vociferously distinguish it from MGH and the like. Almost like they feel it's cheating your way to a Harvard diploma. That said, you do get a Harvard diploma - and that's gotta piss some people off that went to harder to get into programs that don't have nearly the same name recognition. That's all I got, because it does seem like a good program, with great benefits, and great opportunities. The driving? Not so much.
 
kindasorta said:
All this talk and I still can't figure HSS out. A mystery wrapped in a conundrum. My instinct is that it gets dumped on because it does indeed have the Harvard name, but people feel the need to vociferously distinguish it from MGH and the like. Almost like they feel it's cheating your way to a Harvard diploma. That said, you do get a Harvard diploma - and that's gotta piss some people off that went to harder to get into programs that don't have nearly the same name recognition. That's all I got, because it does seem like a good program, with great benefits, and great opportunities. The driving? Not so much.
Click to expand...

That's exactly the same impression that I had. And I think people assume that the place has a "weird vibe" because they expect it to have a weird vibe, and it becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The only "weird" thing I found there was that some of the faculty were way more impressive than the residents and some of the other faculty, but that's perfectly consistent with the fact that they have Harvard faculty working with somewhat less-competitive residents and some non-Harvard VA physicians (not to say that the VA people weren't impressive - many of them were - but some of them weren't as awesome as the PD and the other Harvard people there). At other places, the level of impressiveness is generally more consistent.
 
Last edited:
not to hijack the thread, but i wonder why these boards are so heavily east coast focused? lots of good programs are located elsewhere and plenty of jobs to go around no matter where you train. some of the best training doesnt have the sexiest name recognition
 
mkeguy said:
not to hijack the thread, but i wonder why these boards are so heavily east coast focused? lots of good programs are located elsewhere and plenty of jobs to go around no matter where you train. some of the best training doesnt have the sexiest name recognition
Click to expand...

I'm open to other names. What places did you have in mind?
 
mkeguy said:
not to hijack the thread, but i wonder why these boards are so heavily east coast focused? lots of good programs are located elsewhere and plenty of jobs to go around no matter where you train. some of the best training doesnt have the sexiest name recognition
Click to expand...

I don't get that feeling. If you look at the "interview review thread", the last few reviews were Indiana, MCW, Kansas, Mayo (twice), Iowa, Columbia, Yale, Vanderbilt, WashU, Dartmouth, and Stanford. Only three of those places are on the Eastern Seaboard.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

B
Thoughts on this job?
2
Replies
57
Views
3K
psyspy
P
brazilianpsych
Thoughts on invol hosp for SI
Replies
40
Views
2K
aim-agm
A
P
Thoughts on Job offer...
Replies
20
Views
1K
Stagg737
Stagg737
Medicine Mamba
Thoughts on this VA heavy residency program?
Replies
17
Views
1K
comp1
C
T
Thoughts on job offer
Replies
41
Views
2K
Mad Jack
Mad Jack
Top